SGI clones only die in the sense of being wiped if they are used as vessels for resurrection, otherwise you can restore them. That does not mean you can just say ask a clone to kill herself as a form of instant long range communication or something, dying is still traumatic in a way being reabsorbed in the presence of the Exalt is not and a close which died violently is going to have gaps in their memories for the time preceding their death
Ok, that helps, doesn't completely removes the arguments against, there are others that were presented, but it does completely change the calculus as far as the risks to the clones about dying is, they are *safe* in that particular way, it would not be pleasant, but they can take some deaths.
Molly clones seem like a way to cheat the human sacrifice requirement for Barren Waste Inflection. We can sacrifice ourselves onto ourselves to cheese a rule.
SGI clones only die in the sense of being wiped if they are used as vessels for resurrection, otherwise you can restore them. That does not mean you can just say ask a clone to kill herself as a form of instant long range communication or something, dying is still traumatic in a way being reabsorbed in the presence of the Exalt is not and a close which died violently is going to have gaps in their memories for the time preceding their death
Could you put houserules like that on the rules threadmark?
I think we have discussed the clones before and likely will again, so that would be helpful.
Unless we buy them soon of course, in which case the altered text like for MiM would be fine.
You're missing the point. You can learn skills, but you have to be human to be an exalt. It burns out any minor deviations from that and won't accept any additional transformations later on. You can learn to be a magical martial artist, but you can't inject demons for power like a fomori. If it makes you a different sort of creature it's not possible to do it to an exalt.
To use your USA example:
You are shipping nukes to an Air Force Base where you know(not suspect, know) a significant portion of the pilots and ground crew are traitors, who will either fly away with them to the enemy, or drop them on your own side.
Ask any doctor's office how easy it is going from paper records to electronic ones.
Not converting old records, just beginning to use electronic ones going forward.
The hardware is just the half of it, and not the lesser half.
As with most things the answer is 'it depends'. Anything that directly calls and makes use of the aid of Sanctuary Spirits will translate over perfectly as will the use of tech and alchemy using ingredients from the Hell, you are literally carrying stuff over. Talents which are internal like shapeshifting or making one's self unseen as Olivia does would work mostly the same with a few hic ups. Paths that have to do with the manipulation of fundamental forces like shdowcasting and hellfire would be in the middle complexity wise and finally paths like weather control would be practically impossible. Necromancy would be actually impossible to learn not that I expect you guys to want to teach it
[X] Set up a network of minor talents using the internet so they can pool their resources for common protection (If not chosen can still be done, just without the approval and aegis of the White Council)
We just got a planet, we don't really need more territory of all things right now. We certainly don't need the political complications of land on earth either.
If Harry is a part of the delegation sent to our kingdom, we need to think and talk about the following:
1) Lash. She already tried escaping (possibly to seek asylum) once. She might try again. Even if she doesn't, simply letting her learn our secrets is an unacceptable risk. We should revisit exorcising her. Like, call Sanya, get him and dad on stand by, possibly get Mab on standby, and exorcise Lash. Together we could take her
2) Would Harry be taking Bob, Mouse and MIster the cat with him? If not, they are likely to move with us, or they'll need a house sitter. And probably a lot of added protection
3) Who would we get as a replacement Warden commander for the region? Chicago is important if only because we live here. It won't be left unattended.
If Harry is a part of the delegation sent to our kingdom, we need to think and talk about the following:
1) Lash. She already tried escaping (possibly to seek asylum) once. She might try again. Even if she doesn't, simply letting her learn our secrets is an unacceptable risk. We should revisit exorcising her. Like, call Sanya, get him and dad on stand by, possibly get Mab on standby, and exorcise Lash. Together we could take her
2) Would Harry be taking Bob, Mouse and MIster the cat with him? If not, they are likely to move with us, or they'll need a house sitter. And probably a lot of added protection
3) Who would we get as a replacement Warden commander for the region? Chicago is important if only because we live here. It won't be left unattended.
Speaking of, whether Harry is a member of the delegation or not, we need to push for more WC help in Chicago. So much supernatural shit goes down here, we could use another couple wizards, even if they're just trainee wizards or non-violent types. They could help with instructing the minor talents, setting up wards, etc. I know the WC is being hard pressed by the war, but they shouldn't neglect this area like they largely do in canon.
Thats what Im disputing. The impression I get is that its more about mindset than capabilities.
Most wizards can kill quickly and efficiently; not all of them throw fire, but most have access to some way of quickly cancelling some opponent's life subscription.
Most dont think that way, or have the training to think that way.
Its the same issue with people who own a gun but dont really have the mindset to quickdraw in the middle of Walmart. Or the soldiers in a US base in Afgahnistan who got run down and shot by an Afghan turncoat because they werent thinking like that.
You're missing the point. You can learn skills, but you have to be human to be an exalt. It burns out any minor deviations from that and won't accept any additional transformations later on. You can learn to be a magical martial artist, but you can't inject demons for power like a fomori. If it makes you a different sort of creature it's not possible to do it to an exalt.
Its not being applied to Molly Prime, its being applied to Molly Clone X, which is modelled on Molly Prime as a mortal.
IDU doesnt inject a demon, it calls up whats already in you and transforms it with Infernal Essence:
Inner Devils Unchained (••••)
Monsters lurk in every heart. Empowering a person's inner darkness, the Infernal makes that monster real. She must approach a mortal and breathe into their mouth to use this Charm. Her victim's shadow twists and distorts, becoming a demon of Kakuri before climbing into the target's flesh and inflicting a brief, agonizing transformation.
System: Spend 3 Essence while within kissing distance of the target. Over the course of a few minutes of indescribably painful transformation, the Charm's victim becomes a bakemono – a sort of monster that shapeshifters know as fomori. Rules for fomori can be found on pages 428-439 of W20. The Infernal may reclaim her gift of inner darkness, making the bakemono human again, but this inflicts a number of levels ofaggravated damage equal to (7 - the Essence the Exaltopts to spend undoing her curse).
This isnt calling up a bane.
This is using whats already there and transforming it, and potentially reversing the transformation
The QM will decide whether or not it applies to a clone made of Molly's Essence.
But I dont see anything preventing it.
It's not a "must be this tall to enter" ride up to a point. Then the context to allow you to do stuff starts turning into someone stronger than you setting it up.
Harry is just strong enough to get into more trouble than he can brush off.
Not all transformations are the same. It's a werewolf, don't overcomplicate things.
With a whole different set of more expensive charms with different use limits. That house god for example was very powerful, but took multiple exalts and sorcerers to make. It also has some pretty hard area of control limits.
1) All werewolves, all shapeshifters are not the same.
My point has been made.
2)Different charms for different splats. Same thematic thrust.
3)Most of the effort of making the house god came from Molly and Lydia; Molly provided 18 successes, and Lydia provided 7 successes, with the other Cauldron members providing 6.
And it was done without a dedicated Crafting charm. Or Summoning/Warding. Or Enchantment.
Can we do it as bound to a car? A golem of a dog? Freestanding? Im excited to find out.
it's a 5 dot charm, it does more stuff. Yes it needs balancing, but none of these things you're bringing up matter because they're completely different effects.
1) Not for what she's carrying around in her head she isn't. An armored car is fine for transporting cash between banks, but don't put the nuke codes in one and drive it around town. Their abilities are different enough that I'm very skeptical of the idea that simply masking their auras would stop a dedicated observer from figuring it out.
2) Our spirits get cut off from being too far underground. There abilities are based on abusing their platform's tech, but that's it.
4) Nobody coming in for an op like this is going to be really inconvenienced by a minor sorcerer.
1)Their abilities are only obvious if you demonstrate them.
With BMI up, they both look the same to external observation, and with Molly being able to RVD between cities, your targeting problem worsens.
Furthermore, something you've overlooked is that noone knows what a Molly clone can do. Or what it knows.
Unless we tell them. Its entirely possible for some people to think its a sorcerous double drawn from our Hell.
2)We explicitly noticed when Kattrin started driving Black Rider towards the cell where Cindy was incarcerated underground.
And there was no service there. Arc 2 Post 35:
Just as the thought passes through your mind Clippy starts to vibrate, subtle of her since faking a call down here would be about as believable as a water park in the Sahara.
You flip it open, as though cheeking it for damage from the fight. On the screen is a simple message:
Black Rider is Moving, destination the tattoo parlor. Passenger on left side of car not exhibiting ordinary signs of life yet there is motion. Entrance potentially compromised.
What do you argue for?
I get the impression that while there isnt high bandwidth between them, they do stay in contact.
3)Not actually true. Not when they are trying to take said person alive.
Even the Denarians had issues trying to take Marcone alive, and there were more than ten Denarians hunting a mortal man with only two guards.
And like I've pointed out, Molly clones will have Brass Court gear.
You're potentially looking at anything from combat drugs to fetishes. Even spirit overwatch.
And she'll be living at home, with the jawas.
We only see them hunting far from home, which makes we doubt the confidence of your assertion there.
You're relying on one trick that is well known to the setting at large to keep us safe when it's demonstrably possible to get around it.
This is not true.
Morgan's first encounter is the only one that was a hunt, and it was in the southwest, in the vicinity of tribal country.
Nothing in the tales suggests it was chasing him cross-country.
Morgan's second encounter wasnt a personal hunt.
Shagnasty was commissioned to vanish him; he wasnt hunting him for food or power, someone called in a marker.
Which is why he was followed to Chicago.
If he'd been hunting, Dresden would have died at the first encounter, where he made the mistake of opening his Sight.
Molly clones seem like a way to cheat the human sacrifice requirement for Barren Waste Inflection. We can sacrifice ourselves onto ourselves to cheese a rule.
Oh and Oneiromancy, the thing you are actually teaching that does not exist in your hell ironically enough, because it is a hell, the inhabitants do not project their souls out into the nevernever to make short lived domains, they are bound to the Wheel.
Huh, while that's interesting it makes me wonder if there is another parallel path that uses the wheel as a sort or 'akashic record' of all that are bound to it, maybe more specifically being able to access fragments of knowledge of any that are currently passing though it?
Thats what Im disputing. The impression I get is that its more about mindset than capabilities.
Most wizards can kill quickly and efficiently; not all of them throw fire, but most have access to some way of quickly cancelling some opponent's life subscription.
Most dont think that way, or have the training to think that way.
Its the same issue with people who own a gun but dont really have the mindset to quickdraw in the middle of Walmart. Or the soldiers in a US base in Afgahnistan who got run down and shot by an Afghan turncoat because they werent thinking like that.
You are missing the point.
Its not being applied to Molly Prime, its being applied to Molly Clone X, which is modelled on Molly Prime as a mortal.
IDU doesnt inject a demon, it calls up whats already in you and transforms it with Infernal Essence:
Inner Devils Unchained (••••)
Monsters lurk in every heart. Empowering a person's inner darkness, the Infernal makes that monster real. She must approach a mortal and breathe into their mouth to use this Charm. Her victim's shadow twists and distorts, becoming a demon of Kakuri before climbing into the target's flesh and inflicting a brief, agonizing transformation.
System: Spend 3 Essence while within kissing distance of the target. Over the course of a few minutes of indescribably painful transformation, the Charm's victim becomes a bakemono – a sort of monster that shapeshifters know as fomori. Rules for fomori can be found on pages 428-439 of W20. The Infernal may reclaim her gift of inner darkness, making the bakemono human again, but this inflicts a number of levels ofaggravated damage equal to (7 - the Essence the Exaltopts to spend undoing her curse).
This isnt calling up a bane.
This is using whats already there and transforming it, and potentially reversing the transformation
The QM will decide whether or not it applies to a clone made of Molly's Essence.
But I dont see anything preventing it.
Doesnt change the point.
1) All werewolves, all shapeshifters are not the same.
My point has been made.
2)Different charms for different splats. Same thematic thrust.
3)Most of the effort of making the house god came from Molly and Lydia; Molly provided 18 successes, and Lydia provided 7 successes, with the other Cauldron members providing 6.
And it was done without a dedicated Crafting charm. Or Summoning/Warding. Or Enchantment.
Can we do it as bound to a car? A golem of a dog? Freestanding? Im excited to find out.
Agree to disagree.
1)Their abilities are only obvious if you demonstrate them.
With BMI up, they both look the same to external observation, and with Molly being able to RVD between cities, your targeting problem worsens.
Furthermore, something you've overlooked is that noone knows what a Molly clone can do. Or what it knows.
Unless we tell them. Its entirely possible for some people to think its a sorcerous double drawn from our Hell.
2)We explicitly noticed when Kattrin started driving Black Rider towards the cell where Cindy was incarcerated underground.
And there was no service there. Arc 2 Post 35:
Just as the thought passes through your mind Clippy starts to vibrate, subtle of her since faking a call down here would be about as believable as a water park in the Sahara.
You flip it open, as though cheeking it for damage from the fight. On the screen is a simple message:
Black Rider is Moving, destination the tattoo parlor. Passenger on left side of car not exhibiting ordinary signs of life yet there is motion. Entrance potentially compromised.
What do you argue for?
I get the impression that while there isnt high bandwidth between them, they do stay in contact.
3)Not actually true. Not when they are trying to take said person alive.
Even the Denarians had issues trying to take Marcone alive, and there were more than ten Denarians hunting a mortal man with only two guards.
And like I've pointed out, Molly clones will have Brass Court gear.
You're potentially looking at anything from combat drugs to fetishes. Even spirit overwatch.
And she'll be living at home, with the jawas.
This is not true.
Morgan's first encounter is the only one that was a hunt, and it was in the southwest, in the vicinity of tribal country.
Nothing in the tales suggests it was chasing him cross-country.
Morgan's second encounter wasnt a personal hunt.
Shagnasty was commissioned to vanish him; he wasnt hunting him for food or power, someone called in a marker.
Which is why he was followed to Chicago.
If he'd been hunting, Dresden would have died at the first encounter, where he made the mistake of opening his Sight.
This is entirely too close to human sacrifice for Molly to sanction it.
Could you put houserules like that on the rules threadmark?
I think we have discussed the clones before and likely will again, so that would be helpful.
Unless we buy them soon of course, in which case the altered text like for MiM would be fine.
Not basically, actually non-existent. There has never in the entire history of the world been someone who has both A) passed all the preconditions to die and be unbound from the Wheel and B) was filled with so much angst they lingered independently as a ghost. Without that most basic of undead forms and existences none of the rest could happen. Even events that would in the material realm cause non-ensouled necromantic phenomena do not do that here since the world itself does not have the concept of undeath imprinted on it. Having someone die a very traumatic death is still going to leave a whole lot of negative pshychic energy, but that is not going to arrange itself into a simulacrum of the deceased going though the motions, why would it, they died knowing they will come back. Instead it is like the worst case of bad feng shui imaginable with the locations of particularly heinous atrocities hosting living entropy curses that lash out at everything near them
Not basically, actually non-existent. There has never in the entire history of the world been someone who has both A) passed all the preconditions to die and be unbound from the Wheel and B) was filled with so much angst they lingered independently as a ghost. Without that most basic of undead forms and existences none of the rest could happen. Even events that would in the material realm cause non-ensouled necromantic phenomena do not do that here since the world itself does not have the concept of undeath imprinted on it. Having someone die a very traumatic death is still going to leave a whole lot of negative pshychic energy, but that is not going to arrange itself into a simulacrum of the deceased going though the motions, why would it, they died knowing they will come back. Instead it is like the worst case of bad feng shui imaginable with the locations of particularly heinous atrocities hosting living entropy curses that lash out at everything near them
Aren't animals somewhat excluded to the wheel to a degree? Which isn't an argument I was making just thought of it. When I asked was just making sure I was on the same picture as you.
-Record taking. Not keeping. There are similarities.
A significant protocol change involving thousands of people would be a major undertaking.
Even when a good portion of those people werent born before the radio.
For reference, this is what the White Council switchboard looks like as of Changes, which is around five years away in the original timeline:
Warden country and the cafeteria were both empty, though there was a deck of cards spread out on a table in one of the lounges. "Weird," I muttered. "All the checkpoints are business-as-usual or I'd think something was wrong."
Molly frowned. "Maybe someone got into the heads of the sentries."
"Nah. They're jerks, but they're not incompetent jerks. No one around here is going to get away with mental buggery for a while."
"Buggery?" Molly asked.
"Hey, we're in the United Kingdom. When in Rome." We went across the hall to administration and, finally, found someone: a harried-looking woman who sat at an old switchboard—the kind with about a million holes and plugs that had to be manually inserted and removed to run it. She wore a pair of ancient-looking headphones and spoke into an old radio microphone. "No. No, we have no word at this time. When we learn something, you will be informed." She jerked the wire out, plugged it in under another flashing light, and repeated her spiel. I watched that half a dozen times before I literally waved a hand in front of her face to get her to notice us.
She stopped and blinked up at me. She was a matronly-looking woman, iron grey woven smoothly through her brown hair, which meant that she could be anywhere between forty-five and two hundred years old. Her eyes flicked over me and then Molly, and I saw her body tense. She eased her rolling chair a few inches back from us—like most of the older crew of wizards, she probably regarded me as a sociopath looking for a nice bell tower. The switchboard lights blinked on and off steadily. They were the old kind that made little clicking sounds as they did.
"Ah," she said. "Wizard Dresden. I am quite busy."
"It looks like it," I said. "Wizard MacFee, right? Where is everybody?"
She blinked at me again, as though I had spoken in Ewok. "Why, they're in the Senior Council's residence hall. It was the only place big enough for everyone who wished to witness it.
Thats for the White Council and everyone who talks to them.
Every mortal ally. A good chunk of informants.
There's certainly magic involved here, given as we see Dresden call them on a normal phone during Turn Coat.
You arent changing that smoothly at the best of times, let alone in the middle of a war.
Its a major undertaking, and it requires buy-in of a lot of people.
Its not like the Merlin walking in with a shopping cart and dropping a change of hardware on the table.
-Under no circumstances would anyone even vaguely interested in privacy or data security involve Molly's cyberdevils in their information archival. Not unless they are comfortable sharing all their records with unknowns.
Their loyalty is to Molly, not to some abstract contract; if she asks, they'll tell her anything theyve seen.
They need someone who has experience identifying potential Law breaches, and translating how the Seven Laws work to people who have never heard of them before. That means Warden, whether serving or retired.
So combat wizard.
Speaking of, whether Harry is a member of the delegation or not, we need to push for more WC help in Chicago. So much supernatural shit goes down here, we could use another couple wizards, even if they're just trainee wizards or non-violent types. They could help with instructing the minor talents, setting up wards, etc. I know the WC is being hard pressed by the war, but they shouldn't neglect this area like they largely do in canon.
As Odin told us, there is no White Council wizard (not Warden, just ordinary wizard) in Boston, which is the 24th biggest city in the US, and the central node of the 11th biggest metropolis in the US. Dresden as regional commander of the eastern US, was overseeing four Wardens. Four.
In Dresden being here, we have more White Council wizards than many major US cities.
To quote Harry, the White Council is not an army.
They dont, and cant tell their people where to live.
Aren't animals somewhat excluded to the wheel to a degree? Which isn't an argument I was making just thought of it. When I asked was just making sure I was on the same picture as you.
They are, under certain circumstances, but they do not leave ghosts because they do not have a trail to follow, it is the angst and pathos of sentient beings that lead the way to necromancy being a thing. It is not simply death magic, it is the magic of the fear of death.
They need someone who has experience identifying potential Law breaches, and translating how the Seven Laws work to people who have never heard of them before. That means Warden, whether serving or retired.
So combat wizard.
They have dealt with new realms before. Shouting at the top of your lungs like a warden tends to is not conducive to faction to faction diplomacy. They need people that can analyze, and figure out exactly what is going on without causing trouble.
They have dealt with new realms before. Shouting at the top of your lungs like a warden tends to is not conducive to faction to faction diplomacy. They need people that can analyze, and figure out exactly what is going on without causing trouble.
Thats what Im disputing. The impression I get is that its more about mindset than capabilities.
Most wizards can kill quickly and efficiently; not all of them throw fire, but most have access to some way of quickly cancelling some opponent's life subscription.
Most dont think that way, or have the training to think that way.
Its the same issue with people who own a gun but dont really have the mindset to quickdraw in the middle of Walmart. Or the soldiers in a US base in Afgahnistan who got run down and shot by an Afghan turncoat because they werent thinking like that.
The metaphor I'd use here is explosives. All wizards can blow you up, but some have grenade launchers and some are improvising with demolitions tools.
It's less convenient and less effective to use the tool over the weapon.
From the ruling we got they're still in some way part of Molly, and that is the reason they get passive charm effects. The charm says it makes the target a bakemono, which is a new species of supernatural. I shouldn't have been specific about the process because it doesn't really matter.
If you're exalted enough for self targeted charm benefits you're exalted enough for exalted restrictions too. They shouldn't be able to become bakemono any more than they can become vampires.
1) You're arbitrarily recategorizing a transformation to suit your purpose. Dresden Files vampires are nothing like WoD ones but we still translate and model those as vampires because that's how they're listed.
2) the thematic thrust of a boat and a car are both transport, that doesn't mean the mpg of your sedan on the highway means anything in particular about the properties of your speed boat.
3) None of which really gets into why our bakemono charms should go from gimmick mooks for a few motes to minibosses for a few motes.
1)Their abilities are only obvious if you demonstrate them.
With BMI up, they both look the same to external observation, and with Molly being able to RVD between cities, your targeting problem worsens.
Furthermore, something you've overlooked is that noone knows what a Molly clone can do. Or what it knows.
Unless we tell them. Its entirely possible for some people to think its a sorcerous double drawn from our Hell
1) That's a fair point, but a fragile defense. Unless we stop using things like excellencies as a regular tool someone watching both is going to notice only one Molly is ever superhuman at a time but both make command decisions.
2)We explicitly noticed when Kattrin started driving Black Rider towards the cell where Cindy was incarcerated underground.
And there was no service there. Arc 2 Post 35:
I could have sworn we needed the repeaters in last station before we could do that. Point taken, but things like nevernever travel are still communications issues.
3)Not actually true. Not when they are trying to take said person alive.
Even the Denarians had issues trying to take Marcone alive, and there were more than ten Denarians hunting a mortal man with only two guards.
And like I've pointed out, Molly clones will have Brass Court gear.
You're potentially looking at anything from combat drugs to fetishes. Even spirit overwatch.
And she'll be living at home, with the jawas.
Marcone makes doomsday preppers look like hippies, I don't recall all the details but I doubt it was that simple.
for a prize like this I dont see this barrier to entry as anything more than a speed bump.
We have no native knowledge of the clones or ability to do anything to them if they aren't in our immediate presence. Fleeing into the nevernever means we need to use the crown to find them, and in the meantime they can get a lot done.
There's a point here where all of this becomes impractical even if you can contrive to make it possible.
To be the basic level of use from this charm safely we need enchanted items, guards/overwatch, other charms, investment in learning mortal style magic because dupli!Molly can't use anything we adapt to casting from essence, learning a specific suicide ritual in that path, and how many other things?
All of which makes it safer but not actually safe to make casual use of this tool.
This is not true.
Morgan's first encounter is the only one that was a hunt, and it was in the southwest, in the vicinity of tribal country.
Nothing in the tales suggests it was chasing him cross-country.
Morgan's second encounter wasnt a personal hunt.
Shagnasty was commissioned to vanish him; he wasnt hunting him for food or power, someone called in a marker.
Which is why he was followed to Chicago.
If he'd been hunting, Dresden would have died at the first encounter, where he made the mistake of opening his Sight.
Was it confirmed that that was what was happening there? I read that, and I got the impression that she was projecting herself outside of Harry's head where she could interact with others. Not that she was leaving his head.
Supernatural shit goes down all over the place. We just know more about Chicago because we're here. Sure, it is a bigger and busier city, but it's not uniquely special in that regard.
