Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
you are missing a [ need it for the vote to count
- Location
- Australia
I feel really conflicted on this, on the one hand, "Limited Gifts" might be giving too much away to quickly - it seems like it would be immediately suspicious and an extremely difficult sell for Merlin, let alone the other members of the White Council, albeit not impossible since its limited to the Red Court.
Not to mention if Merlin's Warden bodyguards are compromised, then how are we going to give him this information in a way that it won't be leaked to potential co-conspirators before the White Council is informed, convinced and responds?
Plus this could put a significant target on our back with any conspiracies within the White Council, as well as the White Council itself, due to our potential for disruption.
And yet, "Information Control" also strikes me as a potential miscalculation, concealing information which is sufficiently limited in scope that it might be believed and we have (at least quasi-)plausible reason to know/learn/find out, and could not only significantly help make the White Council and more airtight and thus (at least in some aspects/circumstances/contexts) trustworthy to work with, but genuinely save and improve lives the world over by dealing a significant blow to the Red Court's schemes and war effort.
People will be hurt and die because we chose not to share what information we might acquire, even if that information is not taken at face value and only results in some of the accused receiving cursory inspections/reviews/investigations.
Not to mention, hiding or withholding genuinely useful infomation will start us off on the wrong foot and even at odds with Merlin and the White Council as if not an outright adversary then a potential threat which acts at least ambivalently with the Council. They will look into us and act against us more, most likely upon Merlin's recommendations and suspicion, than if we demonstrate that we might at least be a potential asset and possibly friendly to their cause/ideology beyond a vague assertion that we are on the same side, but refusing to elaborate any further.
Probably won't help Harry's trust in us, if only as a little voice of doubt in the back of his mind to join his chorus. Dad, I'm really not sure (I don't think he trusts the Council person, but would at least acknowledge their potentialto do good, or at least prevent evil), but I suspect he would not approve of the potential humanitarian costs withholding this information might reap, even on the promise that it is to secure greater humanitarian victories down the line at some unspecified point in time against some uncertain enemy (too many maybes compared to more concrete possibilities of what could be done in the here and now).
In the longer term, this might also not be remembered fondly when a greater understanding of our power is inevitably leaked/researched, and the extent of what we choose not to do for the White Council is realised, a bitter pill which might at least be more easily swallowed it we had thrown them a bone - given them something to work with, if not everything. And there are many, many circumstances where a good-faith, friendly relationship with the Council (or even just a Council member), as flawed of an institution as it might be, could have productive outcomes and positive benefits for helping further our own plans and projects as well as improving and protecting of the White Council and the world as a whole.
Is operational security worth not sharing in the use of our power in a situation where it could be genuinely helpful both to ourselves and others? I'm really not sure.
If "Limited Gifts" includes a means to at least attempt to prevent the other Wardens from overhearing the information (I think our IC knowledge justifies this level of paranoia, even if we don't fully trust the Merlin himself) as well as impressing the need to Merlin to keep this information to his eyes and as few as possible people's eyes only, then I'd be very tempted to follow my gut instinct that we need to make the first step towards trustworthiness and helpfulness ourselves through a demonstration of reliability, openess and even (arguably) integrity. But I'm still not sure doing what feels like the right thing is worth the risk of giving the game away too quickly for us to have maximum impact against our enemies, both within and beyond the Council.
I'll think on it some more before committing (feel free to let me know if I misunderstood or accidentally misrepresented something about anyone's plans).
Not to mention if Merlin's Warden bodyguards are compromised, then how are we going to give him this information in a way that it won't be leaked to potential co-conspirators before the White Council is informed, convinced and responds?
Plus this could put a significant target on our back with any conspiracies within the White Council, as well as the White Council itself, due to our potential for disruption.
And yet, "Information Control" also strikes me as a potential miscalculation, concealing information which is sufficiently limited in scope that it might be believed and we have (at least quasi-)plausible reason to know/learn/find out, and could not only significantly help make the White Council and more airtight and thus (at least in some aspects/circumstances/contexts) trustworthy to work with, but genuinely save and improve lives the world over by dealing a significant blow to the Red Court's schemes and war effort.
People will be hurt and die because we chose not to share what information we might acquire, even if that information is not taken at face value and only results in some of the accused receiving cursory inspections/reviews/investigations.
Not to mention, hiding or withholding genuinely useful infomation will start us off on the wrong foot and even at odds with Merlin and the White Council as if not an outright adversary then a potential threat which acts at least ambivalently with the Council. They will look into us and act against us more, most likely upon Merlin's recommendations and suspicion, than if we demonstrate that we might at least be a potential asset and possibly friendly to their cause/ideology beyond a vague assertion that we are on the same side, but refusing to elaborate any further.
Probably won't help Harry's trust in us, if only as a little voice of doubt in the back of his mind to join his chorus. Dad, I'm really not sure (I don't think he trusts the Council person, but would at least acknowledge their potentialto do good, or at least prevent evil), but I suspect he would not approve of the potential humanitarian costs withholding this information might reap, even on the promise that it is to secure greater humanitarian victories down the line at some unspecified point in time against some uncertain enemy (too many maybes compared to more concrete possibilities of what could be done in the here and now).
In the longer term, this might also not be remembered fondly when a greater understanding of our power is inevitably leaked/researched, and the extent of what we choose not to do for the White Council is realised, a bitter pill which might at least be more easily swallowed it we had thrown them a bone - given them something to work with, if not everything. And there are many, many circumstances where a good-faith, friendly relationship with the Council (or even just a Council member), as flawed of an institution as it might be, could have productive outcomes and positive benefits for helping further our own plans and projects as well as improving and protecting of the White Council and the world as a whole.
Is operational security worth not sharing in the use of our power in a situation where it could be genuinely helpful both to ourselves and others? I'm really not sure.
If "Limited Gifts" includes a means to at least attempt to prevent the other Wardens from overhearing the information (I think our IC knowledge justifies this level of paranoia, even if we don't fully trust the Merlin himself) as well as impressing the need to Merlin to keep this information to his eyes and as few as possible people's eyes only, then I'd be very tempted to follow my gut instinct that we need to make the first step towards trustworthiness and helpfulness ourselves through a demonstration of reliability, openess and even (arguably) integrity. But I'm still not sure doing what feels like the right thing is worth the risk of giving the game away too quickly for us to have maximum impact against our enemies, both within and beyond the Council.
I'll think on it some more before committing (feel free to let me know if I misunderstood or accidentally misrepresented something about anyone's plans).
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OK, sure. That's a reasonable addition.
Let's try this more palatable
[X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2
-[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council leaks in regards to Red Court
-[X] When meeting Merlin ask for a private meeting, no bodyguards, to discuss sensitive issues
--[X] Empathy excellency to sell having reservations- as much as he has reasons to distrust you, so you have reasons to be suspicious. But you are willing to talk.
-[X] In private put your money where your mouth is and show yourself to be a friend of the Council.
--[X] Ask that Merlin not share it with people you list until after possible leaks cannotaffect the outcome of the plan. Or he can give them different information to check who is actually leaking and verify your Intel. It's his organization, he knows best. If he does share the information regardless your request, ask he at least monitor the possible leaks to confirm your Intel.
--[X] Give him the list of leaks
---[X] Subterfuge excellency to disguise your source as a result of investigation, mixed with information you got from a naagloshii, mixed with your own divination.
---[X] Do not claim that this information is necessarily perfectly accurate
-[X] Etiquette Excellency for the whole meeting.
This is as soft as I can go. It puts trust in Merlin, and gives him rope to hang himself with. He's not stupid, and he's experienced, if mortal.
Yog has a new plan just above you.
For the ones voting on *information control*:
That, just, that, Yog may be too trusting, but Uju definitely isn't enough, it would be better to do an intermediate option than shutting down such an occasion entirely, we could make an ally there, not giving any explanation and stonewalling him while feeling like a demon in vacation and putting spirits of the wicked city in phones is not prone to helping that.
He will ask questions, we did imply strongly we were in a meeting with something not good on the phone, and salting our relations with the head of the white council out of not wanting to give anything at all is not a great way to work on the traitor problem.
Edit:
Like, you do realize that the *no* vote is explicitly hostile, right?
This is our first meeting with the head of an important actor, under what already are unfavorable circumstances, this really isn't the time for being hostile to him, at least work on appearing open, not shutting him down from the get go.
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- Location
- Canada
I mean, this is very much a time sensitive thing. I don't see any reason we have to let the Merlin know anything about what's about to go down. We aren't a wizard and while we're on the same general side of humanity, if the need for opsec pisses off the Merlin enough for him to take a hostile stance against us that's on him. Literally, making an enemy of an Exalted for a stupid reason, is on him.
Stonewalling another head of state regarding what is essentially a black ops mission is hardly hostile, it's almost to be expected. Stuff like this is need to know, and he very much does not need to know given we've voted to solo our target. Plopping her ashes at his feet will go a long ways to explaining our verbal reticence regarding what we're up to.
Stonewalling another head of state regarding what is essentially a black ops mission is hardly hostile, it's almost to be expected. Stuff like this is need to know, and he very much does not need to know given we've voted to solo our target. Plopping her ashes at his feet will go a long ways to explaining our verbal reticence regarding what we're up to.
Catching up on things I missed.
When her late husband Duke Paolo Ortega came to Chicago on a diplomatic mission in Death Masks, he brought at least six vampires and a dozen mortals with him. Bob counted them at the hotel they were residing at.
And we later see a dozen Red Court vampires at the stadium where the duel took place, indicating that he infiltrated more than came openly with him.
In this quest, Don Phillipe de Leon brought 3x Blood Packs to Cleveland to fuck with the Pathfinder and Fomor.
18x combat capable Rampires, including at least one sorcerer.
And Leon's at the bottom of the nobility.
That gives us onscreen estimates for the minimum size for a travelling party of a major Red Court noble like Arianna.
Note that at Casaverde, when McCoy killed Paolo Ortega, he also killed ~200x of his personal retainers
Thats just the people who were at his estate in Honduras. Not counting those elsewhere.
Senior Red Court nobility have a lot of manpower on call.
===
2) We see Arianna Ortega only twice onscreen in canon.
First when she comes to Edinburgh as a "diplomatic envoy" to the White Council in Chapter 7 of Changes, and noone is going to let her security team into the same assembly hall as a thousand wizards. The second time is at Chitchen Itza in Chapter 44 and 45, before and during the duel with Dresden.
At neither point do we see her personal security team.
But there is no indication that its any less than her husband's; she's the daughter of the Red King, while he married into the family.
===
3)I assume competence in our enemies unless otherwise indicated.
In this quest, Arianna has been travelling around in a big, conspicuous private jet in the middle of a war.
Three and a half years after the White Council reminded everyone of the perils of a high profile by straight up orbital striking her husband in the middle of (one of)his home estate and making him an international headline in retaliation for Archangel.
We also know the Fellowship of St Giles is active here in Latin America, and does assassinations. They literally tried to kill Paolo Ortega in Death Masks. And thats just external enemies.
Im not counting internal Red Court politics, which can get literally cut throat.
That plane has to be protected against both technological threats and magic hax, else it would have been crashed by a ritual techbane curse in midflight, or the sort of ritual curse we see Victor Sells throw in Storm Front.
Or just a standard plane bomb.
Furthermore, she has to have planned for stuff getting through.
You arent a high value target who chooses that sort of profile, and not actively consider if you and your security team can handle any complications.
A several thousand year old elder vampire could not have survived this long by being careless.
Allies, clients and patsies are a thing that we know the Red Court have in canon, and the Rampires have held the lands on the other side of the Gauntlet since at least the first millenium CE. More than enough time that the principal remaining entities there will be Red-aligned.
Its probably an exaggeration to claim ALL the Ways; as the QM just said, places like midair are going to pop in random places.
But terrestrially?
I think Im comfortable asserting that its mostly theirs in practice, even if the Courts claim ownership in theory.
1)Its not limited in scope.
We dont even know who the wizards on the White Council are; other than Dresden and McCoy, we've never met any, and there's anywhere from a minimum of one thousand(we see that number onscreen in Changes during a meeting) to ten thousand plus WC wizards worldwide.
Explaining how you know who's a traitor without mentioning the Crown is pretty much impossible.
And exposing the Crown partly neutralizes least one advantage we have against threats like Nemesis and the Black Council and the Denarians and Yomi Wan. And it makes Molly a much higher priority target prematurely.
Especially since we havent learned any Divination yet to even help act as a smokescreen
(Need to prioritize learning Divination after Alchemy, by the way)
2) Exposing traitors is dangerous. Both physically and politically.
When Peabody was exposed in Turn Coat, in the process the White Council lost more than 50 wizards to his contingencies, the second in command of the Wardens died, and the political fallout ended up with them having to put someone who was either a useful idiot or a Black Council mole on the Senior Council.
And that was with Dresden having made preparations beforehand with McCoy and Ramirez to attempt to apprehend him.
3)Harry and Bob both have told us to shut the fuck up about the Crown.
To anyone.
His(Harry's) response to our listening to his advice isnt going to be distrust, its going to be relief that Molly listened.
1) Regarding numbers:
When her late husband Duke Paolo Ortega came to Chicago on a diplomatic mission in Death Masks, he brought at least six vampires and a dozen mortals with him. Bob counted them at the hotel they were residing at.
Bob's tone became a shade contemptuous. "Magic?"
The insult relieved me a little. If he was able to be a wiseass he'd probably be okay. "Could you tell who did the wards?"
"No. Too good."
Damn. A spell had to get up pretty early in the morning to get around Bob. Maybe he'd been hurt worse than I thought. "What about Ortega?"
"Rothchild," Bob said. "Half a dozen vamps with him. Maybe a dozen mortals."
Bob's eyelights flickered and guttered. I couldn't risk losing Bob by pushing him too hard-and spirit or not, he wasn't immortal. He wasn't afraid of bullets or knives, but there were things that could kill him. "Good enough for now," I said. "Tell me the rest later. Get some sleep."
Bob's eyelights flickered out without another word.
The insult relieved me a little. If he was able to be a wiseass he'd probably be okay. "Could you tell who did the wards?"
"No. Too good."
Damn. A spell had to get up pretty early in the morning to get around Bob. Maybe he'd been hurt worse than I thought. "What about Ortega?"
"Rothchild," Bob said. "Half a dozen vamps with him. Maybe a dozen mortals."
Bob's eyelights flickered and guttered. I couldn't risk losing Bob by pushing him too hard-and spirit or not, he wasn't immortal. He wasn't afraid of bullets or knives, but there were things that could kill him. "Good enough for now," I said. "Tell me the rest later. Get some sleep."
Bob's eyelights flickered out without another word.
The flying dirt slowed her down, but Susan still went for Ortega's gun hand. It was a mistake. Even with only one leg to support him, Ortega screeched again, twisted, and flung Susan from the pitcher's mound into the third row of seats behind first base. She hit with bone-breaking force and dropped out of sight.
Sudden screeches filled the air, and I looked up to see as many as a dozen of the Red Court, revealed in their true forms, coming into the stadium. Some climbed over the walls, some jumped in from the upper levels, and some came bursting out of private boxes in showers of exploding glass.
I spun toward Ortega, lifting my blasting rod, rammed my will through it, and shouted, "Fuego!" A jet of flame as thick as my arm roared at him, but one of the incoming vampires hit him at the shoulder, dragging him out of the line of fire. The newcomer was set alight though, greasy skin going up like a bonfire, and it screamed hideously as it burned.
I sensed movement behind me, and turned to find Kincaid dashing across the ground. He scooped up the Archive and raced for one of the dugouts. One of the Red Court vamps got in his way. Kincaid's arm blurred, a semiautomatic appearing in it, and without missing a step he put two shots neatly between the vampire's eyes. The vampire started to fall, and as he went by it, Kincaid pumped another half dozen shots into its belly, which erupted in a messy shower of scarlet, and left the vampire screaming and thrashing weakly on the ground.
"Harry, look out!" Thomas screamed.
I didn't look out. I figured on the worst and leapt forward. I heard a vampire hiss as it missed me, and it came rushing up behind me. I turned and unleashed another gout of fire from my blasting rod, but missed. The vampire closed on me, spraying venomous saliva into my face.
I'd been hit with vampire venom before, and the stuff worked fast, particularly in large amounts. But I'd taken the potion to block it, and all this did was make me itch. I used the time while the vampire sprayed me to prepare another blast, and unleashed the strike with the rod pressed against the vamp's flabby body. It scorched a wound in the vampire's belly the size of my fist and blew a two-foot hole in the creature's back. The vampire went into weak spasms, and I kicked it off me, rising.
Seven or eight vampires were within fifty feet of me, and coming fast. Thomas sprinted toward me, a knife gleaming in his hand, and hit one of the vamps from behind. He cut open the vampire's belly with a single slice, and the creature collapsed to the ground. "Harry, get out!"
"No!" I shouted. "Get Susan out of here!"
Thomas gritted his teeth, but changed course. He leapt up onto the first-base dugout and hopped neatly over the rail into the stands.
No help there, and there wasn't time to look for options. I crouched and concentrated, chanting, "Defendre, defendre," in a steady litany. It was difficult to do without my shield bracelet to focus it, but I brought up all the defensive energy I could manage in a dome around me.
Sudden screeches filled the air, and I looked up to see as many as a dozen of the Red Court, revealed in their true forms, coming into the stadium. Some climbed over the walls, some jumped in from the upper levels, and some came bursting out of private boxes in showers of exploding glass.
I spun toward Ortega, lifting my blasting rod, rammed my will through it, and shouted, "Fuego!" A jet of flame as thick as my arm roared at him, but one of the incoming vampires hit him at the shoulder, dragging him out of the line of fire. The newcomer was set alight though, greasy skin going up like a bonfire, and it screamed hideously as it burned.
I sensed movement behind me, and turned to find Kincaid dashing across the ground. He scooped up the Archive and raced for one of the dugouts. One of the Red Court vamps got in his way. Kincaid's arm blurred, a semiautomatic appearing in it, and without missing a step he put two shots neatly between the vampire's eyes. The vampire started to fall, and as he went by it, Kincaid pumped another half dozen shots into its belly, which erupted in a messy shower of scarlet, and left the vampire screaming and thrashing weakly on the ground.
"Harry, look out!" Thomas screamed.
I didn't look out. I figured on the worst and leapt forward. I heard a vampire hiss as it missed me, and it came rushing up behind me. I turned and unleashed another gout of fire from my blasting rod, but missed. The vampire closed on me, spraying venomous saliva into my face.
I'd been hit with vampire venom before, and the stuff worked fast, particularly in large amounts. But I'd taken the potion to block it, and all this did was make me itch. I used the time while the vampire sprayed me to prepare another blast, and unleashed the strike with the rod pressed against the vamp's flabby body. It scorched a wound in the vampire's belly the size of my fist and blew a two-foot hole in the creature's back. The vampire went into weak spasms, and I kicked it off me, rising.
Seven or eight vampires were within fifty feet of me, and coming fast. Thomas sprinted toward me, a knife gleaming in his hand, and hit one of the vamps from behind. He cut open the vampire's belly with a single slice, and the creature collapsed to the ground. "Harry, get out!"
"No!" I shouted. "Get Susan out of here!"
Thomas gritted his teeth, but changed course. He leapt up onto the first-base dugout and hopped neatly over the rail into the stands.
No help there, and there wasn't time to look for options. I crouched and concentrated, chanting, "Defendre, defendre," in a steady litany. It was difficult to do without my shield bracelet to focus it, but I brought up all the defensive energy I could manage in a dome around me.
18x combat capable Rampires, including at least one sorcerer.
And Leon's at the bottom of the nobility.
That gives us onscreen estimates for the minimum size for a travelling party of a major Red Court noble like Arianna.
Note that at Casaverde, when McCoy killed Paolo Ortega, he also killed ~200x of his personal retainers
The lines in the old man's face looked hard and bitter. He nodded. "To kill. To enthrall. To invade the thoughts of another mortal. To seek knowledge and power from beyond the Outer Gates. To transform others. To reach beyond the borders of life. To swim against the currents of time."
"You're the White Council's wetworks man," I said. "For all their prattle about the just and wise use of magic, when the wisdom and justice of the Laws of Magic get inconvenient, they have an assassin. You do that for them."
He said nothing.
"You kill people."
"Yes." Ebenezar's face looked like something carved in stone, and his voice was quietly harsh. "When there is no choice. When lives are at stake. When the lack of action would mean-" He cut himself off, jaw working. "I didn't want it. I still don't. But when I have to, I act."
"Like at Casaverde," I said. "You hit Ortega's stronghold when he escaped our duel."
"Yes," he said, still remote. "Ortega killed more of the White Council than any enemy in our history during the attack at Archangel." His voice faltered for a moment. "He killed Simon. My friend. Then he came here and tried to kill you, Hoss. And he was coming back here to finish the job as soon as he recovered. So I hit Casaverde. Killed him and almost two hundred of his personal retainers. And I killed nearly a hundred people there in the house with them. Servants. Followers. Food."
I felt sick. "You told me it would be on the news. I thought maybe it was the Council. Or that you'd done it without killing anyone but vampires. I had time to think about it later, but… I wanted to believe you'd done what was right."
"There's what's right," the old man said, "and then there's what's necessary. They ain't always the same."
"Casaverde wasn't the only necessary thing you did," I said. "Was it."
"Casaverde," Ebenezar said, his voice shaking. "Tunguska. New Madrid. Krakatoa. A dozen more. God help me, a dozen more at least."
I stared at him for a long moment. Then I said, "You told me the Council assigned me to live with you because they wanted to annoy you. But that wasn't it. Because you don't send a potentially dangerous criminal element to live with your hatchet man if you want to rehabilitate him."
"You're the White Council's wetworks man," I said. "For all their prattle about the just and wise use of magic, when the wisdom and justice of the Laws of Magic get inconvenient, they have an assassin. You do that for them."
He said nothing.
"You kill people."
"Yes." Ebenezar's face looked like something carved in stone, and his voice was quietly harsh. "When there is no choice. When lives are at stake. When the lack of action would mean-" He cut himself off, jaw working. "I didn't want it. I still don't. But when I have to, I act."
"Like at Casaverde," I said. "You hit Ortega's stronghold when he escaped our duel."
"Yes," he said, still remote. "Ortega killed more of the White Council than any enemy in our history during the attack at Archangel." His voice faltered for a moment. "He killed Simon. My friend. Then he came here and tried to kill you, Hoss. And he was coming back here to finish the job as soon as he recovered. So I hit Casaverde. Killed him and almost two hundred of his personal retainers. And I killed nearly a hundred people there in the house with them. Servants. Followers. Food."
I felt sick. "You told me it would be on the news. I thought maybe it was the Council. Or that you'd done it without killing anyone but vampires. I had time to think about it later, but… I wanted to believe you'd done what was right."
"There's what's right," the old man said, "and then there's what's necessary. They ain't always the same."
"Casaverde wasn't the only necessary thing you did," I said. "Was it."
"Casaverde," Ebenezar said, his voice shaking. "Tunguska. New Madrid. Krakatoa. A dozen more. God help me, a dozen more at least."
I stared at him for a long moment. Then I said, "You told me the Council assigned me to live with you because they wanted to annoy you. But that wasn't it. Because you don't send a potentially dangerous criminal element to live with your hatchet man if you want to rehabilitate him."
Senior Red Court nobility have a lot of manpower on call.
===
2) We see Arianna Ortega only twice onscreen in canon.
First when she comes to Edinburgh as a "diplomatic envoy" to the White Council in Chapter 7 of Changes, and noone is going to let her security team into the same assembly hall as a thousand wizards. The second time is at Chitchen Itza in Chapter 44 and 45, before and during the duel with Dresden.
At neither point do we see her personal security team.
But there is no indication that its any less than her husband's; she's the daughter of the Red King, while he married into the family.
===
3)I assume competence in our enemies unless otherwise indicated.
In this quest, Arianna has been travelling around in a big, conspicuous private jet in the middle of a war.
Three and a half years after the White Council reminded everyone of the perils of a high profile by straight up orbital striking her husband in the middle of (one of)his home estate and making him an international headline in retaliation for Archangel.
We also know the Fellowship of St Giles is active here in Latin America, and does assassinations. They literally tried to kill Paolo Ortega in Death Masks. And thats just external enemies.
Im not counting internal Red Court politics, which can get literally cut throat.
That plane has to be protected against both technological threats and magic hax, else it would have been crashed by a ritual techbane curse in midflight, or the sort of ritual curse we see Victor Sells throw in Storm Front.
Or just a standard plane bomb.
Furthermore, she has to have planned for stuff getting through.
You arent a high value target who chooses that sort of profile, and not actively consider if you and your security team can handle any complications.
A several thousand year old elder vampire could not have survived this long by being careless.
You dont have to personally conquer territory to control it.
Allies, clients and patsies are a thing that we know the Red Court have in canon, and the Rampires have held the lands on the other side of the Gauntlet since at least the first millenium CE. More than enough time that the principal remaining entities there will be Red-aligned.
Its probably an exaggeration to claim ALL the Ways; as the QM just said, places like midair are going to pop in random places.
But terrestrially?
I think Im comfortable asserting that its mostly theirs in practice, even if the Courts claim ownership in theory.
In order:
1)Its not limited in scope.
We dont even know who the wizards on the White Council are; other than Dresden and McCoy, we've never met any, and there's anywhere from a minimum of one thousand(we see that number onscreen in Changes during a meeting) to ten thousand plus WC wizards worldwide.
Explaining how you know who's a traitor without mentioning the Crown is pretty much impossible.
And exposing the Crown partly neutralizes least one advantage we have against threats like Nemesis and the Black Council and the Denarians and Yomi Wan. And it makes Molly a much higher priority target prematurely.
Especially since we havent learned any Divination yet to even help act as a smokescreen
(Need to prioritize learning Divination after Alchemy, by the way)
2) Exposing traitors is dangerous. Both physically and politically.
When Peabody was exposed in Turn Coat, in the process the White Council lost more than 50 wizards to his contingencies, the second in command of the Wardens died, and the political fallout ended up with them having to put someone who was either a useful idiot or a Black Council mole on the Senior Council.
And that was with Dresden having made preparations beforehand with McCoy and Ramirez to attempt to apprehend him.
3)Harry and Bob both have told us to shut the fuck up about the Crown.
To anyone.
His(Harry's) response to our listening to his advice isnt going to be distrust, its going to be relief that Molly listened.
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Okay. That needs rephrasing. And I dont wanna burn Langtry as a focus.
We might burn one of his Warden bodyguards as a focus.
Or just use the scene where he meets Molly.
@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Can we use the situation/scene where we meet the Merlin as a focus for traitors to the Council?
The Merlin and his security retinue should be there.
And it shouldnt burn any of them as a focus.
The question is not whether we have an obligation to tell Merlin anything. We don't. The question is whether we want to be strong allies with White Council. I do.
To give a real life analogy, we are... Mongolia, who is about to assassinate Russian prime minister, and we are currently meeting Ukrainian president. Do we tell him so he can take advantage of the situation? If we do, he's likely to be grateful and future relationships will benefit between our nation. If we don't, that's business as usual, but they're going to remember.
Why do I think that it's worthwhile to tell him? Because we are going to be in a political conflict with White Council very soon. The moment any of our human subjects comes to Earth, in fact. Remember - White Council asserts jurisdiction over all human magic users operating on Earth. We are already infringing on it with the Order of Cauldron, but we are going to break this when our human subjects start operating on Earth. I am fairly sure at least some practices of the Courts can be seen as Law breaking ( @DragonParadox ?).
I want to avert that conflict before it starts. For that we need political favours.
To give a real life analogy, we are... Mongolia, who is about to assassinate Russian prime minister, and we are currently meeting Ukrainian president. Do we tell him so he can take advantage of the situation? If we do, he's likely to be grateful and future relationships will benefit between our nation. If we don't, that's business as usual, but they're going to remember.
Why do I think that it's worthwhile to tell him? Because we are going to be in a political conflict with White Council very soon. The moment any of our human subjects comes to Earth, in fact. Remember - White Council asserts jurisdiction over all human magic users operating on Earth. We are already infringing on it with the Order of Cauldron, but we are going to break this when our human subjects start operating on Earth. I am fairly sure at least some practices of the Courts can be seen as Law breaking ( @DragonParadox ?).
I want to avert that conflict before it starts. For that we need political favours.
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It takes two sides to be allies.
Do we want to be allies with the White Council? Sure. CAN we be allies with members of the White Council? Certainly.
Can we be anything more than temporary allies with the White Council as a whole? As a political body? Unclear if thats even possible, and its not a decision that Molly herself can make on her own. Takes two to tango.
Some of our goals align. Not all of them do.
We have secrets that are perilous to share, to us and to others, and the White Council demonstrably has members that either have poor judgement, or are actively aligned with forces we would consider malign.
I wish the White Council well. They arent perfect, but are usually a force for good. I want to help them where we can.
I dont want to hurt ourselves or others doing so.
Do we want to be allies with the White Council? Sure. CAN we be allies with members of the White Council? Certainly.
Can we be anything more than temporary allies with the White Council as a whole? As a political body? Unclear if thats even possible, and its not a decision that Molly herself can make on her own. Takes two to tango.
Some of our goals align. Not all of them do.
We have secrets that are perilous to share, to us and to others, and the White Council demonstrably has members that either have poor judgement, or are actively aligned with forces we would consider malign.
I wish the White Council well. They arent perfect, but are usually a force for good. I want to help them where we can.
I dont want to hurt ourselves or others doing so.
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@uju32, could you at least include something in your plan to not blow Langtrey off so hard, maybe etiquette, empathy or other applicable excellencies? Perhaps some excuse or explanation?
Right now your plan is just "stonewall him", we should at least try to be more diplomatic with the head of the White Council, one of the major magical organizations/polities we'll extremely likely to have to deal with in the future.
Right now your plan is just "stonewall him", we should at least try to be more diplomatic with the head of the White Council, one of the major magical organizations/polities we'll extremely likely to have to deal with in the future.
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Yes, absolutely. We are essentially two sovereign statelike entities. The issue is that we are going to clash over jurisdiction in regards to a number of subjects, such as minor human talents and humans from the Courts, to name the few (and leaving aside future events when and if more exalts appear).
I very much want to smooth those issues.
And we have certain core goals, such as stability of Creation.
Point is, I want to at least make an attempt at the alliance / friendly relationship.
White Council is kuch better than any alternatives we have. It pays to keep good relationship with them.
Using one of the watdens would be best.
Im waiting on a reply from the QM.
But note that Molly has Empathy 5, Etiquette 5 and both cant botch. Face to face Molly is supernaturally persuasive.
When Molly says at worst she'll stonewall him, thats a person with skill on the level of the best diplomats on Earth stonewalling you, even before Excellencies.
Its not rude unless we deliberately want to be. Its just not informative.
1) There's standing precedent for the White Council knowing to fuck off when mortal humans are actively employed by other supernatural powers. You dont see them fucking with the Sidhe Knights, and they are mortal humans as a requirement of the job.
Nor do they intervene with changelings either, who are also humans. Or White Court virgins; humans until they kill for the first time.
Im not worried about their attempting to come to conclusions with Molly over the inhabitants of the Brass Courts.
If they were, they'd start with Molly herself.
I bet you they are just going to characterize all of them as scions/changelings and avoid the trouble.
2)Good relationship with them? Sure. The White Council is on good terms with Summer and Winter.
Both sides have given them free passage through Faerie.
When the Summer Court intervened on their behalf on the battlefield against the Red Court six months ago?
Summer Lady Lily told them fuckall beforehand. She just helped Dresden go to Arctis Tor, then after he returned, left him and showed up with an army on the battlefield.
Dresden and Lily and Fix are friendly. They dont generally share secrets.
Harry is Thomas' brother and lived in the same apartment for a year; Thomas doesnt know about Lasciel.
Thomas has never told Harry he's a True Venator. Murphy doesnt know about Lasciel or Lash. Or about the Book of Kemmler situation that he solved for her behind her back.
Dresden doesnt know McCoy is his grandfather.
When he found out, he didnt tell McCoy Thomas was his grandkid either.
Dresden literally gave Ivy the Archive her name, and she really likes him. They dont share secrets.
What Im pointing out is that a cordial, even friendly relationship, does not require that we show them our secrets.
They sure as hell arent going to show us theirs.
3)Molly's literal first intervention in Chicago was to help prevent an assassination attempt on a Senior Council member.
Her second intervention was to package up and send the White Council the warlock Gorfels for interrogation and execution.
Her third was to prevent Kattrin pulling off a major black magic ritual in the heart of Chicago.
Our bona fides are there if the Wardens care to look. We arent entirely unknown to them
4) Some of our goals coincide. Do be warned that some of them dont.
Their attitude towards ghouls for example, or Whampires, is informed by long experience.
They arent just going to change.
And there's no way Molly investing in the minor talent community goes down well as a political matter with large sections of the White Council rank and file.
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- Location
- Earth
Except Harry kept quiet about all of them...
SIdhe knights number at most 2, and are mantle holders. White court virgins and changelings usually choose / transform when they are teens, around the time when the wizarding talent manifests itself. And we don't actually know if WC asserts their control over them when they can.
Brass court humans are much more numerous, are not mantle holders, and are humans. I am fairly sure "I am employed by X" is not a defense against the wardens.
Unless Ebenezar kept quiet about his encounter with Molly as well, doesnt matter.
And even if he did then, Langtry bringing this up will have McCoy mentioning that we've met before.
Like I said, the information is available to them.
1)Changelings get the option to Choose; many do, some do not.
And they dont choose in their teens; Lily and Fix were young adults when they were chosen as Summer Lady and Knight, and both were changelings who hadnt Chosen. Meryl Chose as a young adult and died. Ace is still out there, and he hasnt Chosen, even though his father is THE Redcap. He doesnt Choose at all, and dies during Cold Days IIRC.
Sarissa hasnt Chosen for centuries; she's the same age as Maeve.
No wizard is asking HER questions.
2) Scions dont choose. They are born that way.
Merlin in this AU was a scion, son of an incubus.
Not to mention that no one who knows whats good for them asks Gard or her sisters about their bona fides and magic use, even though they were born human and Called by Odin.
They arent Mantle bearers either, and apparently can die, if the fact that Kattrin killed three counts for anything.
Leaving aside how she's Maeve's sister, which would exempt her from most rules, is she actually a magic user at all?
Valkyries aren't human. They are akuma equivalents of Odin, divine messengers elevated from humanity. And their number is below 20.
Our humans are, well, humans. They are using human magic, if one of vastly different tradition from those present on Earth. They are going to be an issue with White Council.
For my part I think it's probably a good idea tell him we think he has traitors without giving him a list of names or trying too hard to convinced him of the same. We can cite Gorfel and an ability to determine he was telling an objective truth rather than sharing a subject belief if we need to, but only if he presses.
The point isn't to get him to act, it's to give a plausible reason for Molly's actions which she can back with her social abilities. He could believe she's entirely wrong but categorize her as a misled ally than a shifty neutral or potential enemy.
Sharing something that hints at how we draw power from learning things that are true and secret is a lot less risky than hinting at the crown and avoids a lot of associated complications with pointing fingers.
Even outright sharing that particular ability isn't that much of leak relative to the potential gain here. I don't like sharing things, but intelligence sharing between potential allies sometimes requires steps like this to establish credibility of the data. We wouldn't be giving all the data we have, but as long as what we do give us true and was received from that source it's not really lying to them.
He's a lot more likely to trust that, because it sounds almost plausible. Information spirits like Bob do get direct strength from knowing things beyond what they can be used for after all. Something older and stronger than them that works similarly isn't particularly crazy.
Once the thought is planted he'll likely start actually looking, which should lead him to finding the traitors himself. Even if he doesn't as long as he believes we believe it we get some leeway on our evasiveness.
The point isn't to get him to act, it's to give a plausible reason for Molly's actions which she can back with her social abilities. He could believe she's entirely wrong but categorize her as a misled ally than a shifty neutral or potential enemy.
Why go this far with it? They're not total incompetents, they just place too much trust in some people.
Sharing something that hints at how we draw power from learning things that are true and secret is a lot less risky than hinting at the crown and avoids a lot of associated complications with pointing fingers.
Even outright sharing that particular ability isn't that much of leak relative to the potential gain here. I don't like sharing things, but intelligence sharing between potential allies sometimes requires steps like this to establish credibility of the data. We wouldn't be giving all the data we have, but as long as what we do give us true and was received from that source it's not really lying to them.
He's a lot more likely to trust that, because it sounds almost plausible. Information spirits like Bob do get direct strength from knowing things beyond what they can be used for after all. Something older and stronger than them that works similarly isn't particularly crazy.
Once the thought is planted he'll likely start actually looking, which should lead him to finding the traitors himself. Even if he doesn't as long as he believes we believe it we get some leeway on our evasiveness.
I don't doubt that she has a large and competent security staff, just that she definitely has the exact abilities necessary to have a dogfight with us. Red court vamps can't do stuff like that, just because we're using WoD to simulate them doesn't mean they should get wildly out of scope abilities as convenient from every splat to ever exist for vampires.
I can buy that her plan is jumping and surviving the landing or something like that but not this.
You do if things live there an don't like you, or you want to exert control over it. You're also conflating Ways and the nevernever in general here.
Ways are specific paths, they're limited in number and don't change much. Exerting enough control to do what you're suggesting over non-Way nevernever space is crazy. Having some holdings is one thing, but no power in the DF is even implied to have this sort of control other than Maybe the fey themselves. Even they struggle to manage all of it as you noted.
I can buy that they have a lot of the major ways under effective control in their area of influence, and watch a lot of the ones they don't control, but if the red court could do what you're suggesting they'd be peers to the fey courts.
TL;DR
Please consider voting or approval voting for a slightly more diplomatic refusal to reveal anything,
[] Plan Softer Information Control,
or Yog's updated plan
[] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2
which addresses presented criticisms and uses an opportunity to engage with our mutual actions against our mutual foe of Red Court to give White Council better impression of us.
The current winning vote is, very unfortunately, discards a valuable opportunity and might paint us in a negative light.
The opportunity to, bolded for emphasis from the last update,
And we might get a malus to our White Council impression later because of the discrepancy which might become apparent later. Harry specifically presented us to the Merlin as the person who helped Ebenezer this summer in the Red Court war, and told nothing besides that:
It's better to try to at least somehow engage with the possibility of cooperation, even if it wouldn't be possible because of opsec, than do nothing and even "stonewall" any possible inquiries, however polite we may or may not come out to be of it. It's a wash on whether Langtrey will appreciate our politeness or be miffed at us transparently telling him big flat no under all the verbal packaging.
The difference between us saying we want to help earlier and not even trying to see, check, if we could use an opportunity we have at the moment, like if later this difference would come to light, it would be a part of our reputation at stake, do we just talk or actually walk the walk?
If you are dead set on not revealing anything, please consider voting or approval voting a bit more diplomatic information control, I would put something up if uju32 won't, with parts cribbled from Yog's plans.
[X] Plan Softer Information Control
-[X] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him
--[X] Empathy excellency to sell having reservations - you have reasons to be suspicious of possibility of leaks
--[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council leaks in regards to Red Court
If not, please consider Yog's updated plan, [] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2, it now does not step on Merlin's toes by claiming that his friends are traitors, just specifies that we may have information on possible Red Court leaks in the White Council structures and lets Merlin to do with it as he pleases, only giving the list to him if he would pledge to be sufficiently opsec about it, safeguarding our plans to hit Arianna.
And it still follows up on our explicitly stated desire to help in the Red Court war, fully takes advantage of the opportunity to make us look better in White Council's perception, which we very much need.
[X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2
We are swimming uphill here due to how we are appear, and we appear as what we are, essentially an arch-devil, it's so easy not to like us or to distrust us. And among other things this might make life very difficult for Harry, who as we now know actually might have, you know, derelicted his duty on our behalf. And he is Molly's intimacy, she would be compelled to get into anything which may transpire out of this for him. We should use any opportunity to nip this at the bud.
Please consider voting or approval voting for a slightly more diplomatic refusal to reveal anything,
[] Plan Softer Information Control,
or Yog's updated plan
[] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2
which addresses presented criticisms and uses an opportunity to engage with our mutual actions against our mutual foe of Red Court to give White Council better impression of us.
The current winning vote is, very unfortunately, discards a valuable opportunity and might paint us in a negative light.
The opportunity to, bolded for emphasis from the last update,
We don't necessary have to inform White Council of our plans in whole or even in part to take it. Even if we are opsec-conscious and are not going to reveal anything, we should manage it better.
And we might get a malus to our White Council impression later because of the discrepancy which might become apparent later. Harry specifically presented us to the Merlin as the person who helped Ebenezer this summer in the Red Court war, and told nothing besides that:
And when we met, helped and talked with Ebenezer, we emphatically professed our genuine desire to help in the war:
It's better to try to at least somehow engage with the possibility of cooperation, even if it wouldn't be possible because of opsec, than do nothing and even "stonewall" any possible inquiries, however polite we may or may not come out to be of it. It's a wash on whether Langtrey will appreciate our politeness or be miffed at us transparently telling him big flat no under all the verbal packaging.
The difference between us saying we want to help earlier and not even trying to see, check, if we could use an opportunity we have at the moment, like if later this difference would come to light, it would be a part of our reputation at stake, do we just talk or actually walk the walk?
If you are dead set on not revealing anything, please consider voting or approval voting a bit more diplomatic information control, I would put something up if uju32 won't, with parts cribbled from Yog's plans.
[X] Plan Softer Information Control
-[X] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him
--[X] Empathy excellency to sell having reservations - you have reasons to be suspicious of possibility of leaks
--[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council leaks in regards to Red Court
If not, please consider Yog's updated plan, [] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2, it now does not step on Merlin's toes by claiming that his friends are traitors, just specifies that we may have information on possible Red Court leaks in the White Council structures and lets Merlin to do with it as he pleases, only giving the list to him if he would pledge to be sufficiently opsec about it, safeguarding our plans to hit Arianna.
And it still follows up on our explicitly stated desire to help in the Red Court war, fully takes advantage of the opportunity to make us look better in White Council's perception, which we very much need.
[X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2
We are swimming uphill here due to how we are appear, and we appear as what we are, essentially an arch-devil, it's so easy not to like us or to distrust us. And among other things this might make life very difficult for Harry, who as we now know actually might have, you know, derelicted his duty on our behalf. And he is Molly's intimacy, she would be compelled to get into anything which may transpire out of this for him. We should use any opportunity to nip this at the bud.
[X] Plan Softer Information Control
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving" v2