Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Just as a note here, he is going to ask you how you know this, straight up Arthur is not Mab, he does not have Mab's vast power and the confidence that comes with it, he does not have the ability to read you consistently because his dice pool is for the most part mortal. He rolled 8 dice for Perception+Empathy. 10 is the hypothetical human maximum for a dice pool, 8 is world class... Molly can still beat 8 dice consistently, she is going to walk in there feeling like a demon lord and looking like a cypher. It would be best to have an answer to how she know before she brings up any traitors.

Remember too that not everyone is as much of a paranoid SoB as the Blackstaff, these are people the Merlin has known and has worked with for centuries, to accuse them of unspeakable treachery is not an easy thing.
Even if he were a paranoid SoB, no one is likely to take friends/collegues for centuries being accused of bring traitors well. After all, what does it say about yourself that you were friends with them and never noticed.

Yeah, it's much better not to tell him anything now and give the list to Ebenezar, as he's more likely to take us seriously (by Harry, if nothing else), and after he's proven the existence of a few spies he'd trust more in us.

Merlin has no reason to trust our information, especially if it indicts a member who has worked side by side with him for decades, and Harry supporting us really does not help matters, as he practically made it a point of principle to anger Merlin or the Council at all times, even when him shouldn't.

(If I were in their shoes, I would also be very angry at him and his lack of control, with his constant jokes and pop culture references and never considering anything beyond what's in front of him.)
Yeah, Harry has made it his business to piss off the White Council whenever possible for no reason other than his dislike of governing organizations. His use of Latin for spellcasting (especially since he likely never explained why he does so) comes across as giving them the middle finger for no reason (I mean, we can know/suspect that it was done by Justin to isolate Harry from the WC but Arthur doesn't have all the information we do. It doesn't help that Arthur likely knows that Harry is a Starborn and so he is stuck knowing that he is stuck dealing with Harry for the long run.
 
@Yog, why not use the Crown question to get both leaks and traitors, and later give the full info to Ebenezer (through Harry, perhaps) no strings attached to do with as he pleases? Better even to request a personal meeting if he would be amenable, and if he would, after transferring the list tell about the planned hit on condition of him agreeing to be suitably discreet with the info around the traitors and their contacts.

Otherwise it's somewhat a waste of a focus, and the Black Council problem is not only a bother to people Molly cares about, it could be a thorn in her own side. And when successfully resolved it would up our relationship with the Council, or at least with some of them, and that's always a plus.
 
That's two questions. We have one focus.
Indeed. Use what we have for a narrower question, then use new ones we get (like a business card, a phone number, the beer mug he held, etc) for a broader one.

Plus, Red Court question is much more immediate. And easier to sell. Worst case scenario "we got this from a naagloshii, so treat with caution, but we checked out some of these and they were corrdct" is a valid explanation.
 
Indeed. Use what we have for a narrower question, then use new ones we get (like a business card, a phone number, the beer mug he held, etc) for a broader one.

Plus, Red Court question is much more immediate. And easier to sell. Worst case scenario "we got this from a naagloshii, so treat with caution, but we checked out some of these and they were corrdct" is a valid explanation.
Yeah, I guess that works.

I just don't want to miss the opportunity, DP simulates the world and if we just leave the plot threads to develop on their own they might very well bite us in the backside later. And we can't rely on DF canon info to sufficient extent, too much was already butterflied.

And what's very good about this opportunity, is that we can resolve this with very little, get the info to Ebenezer and through him to people he trusts, and let White Council resolve this on their own, without any other investments on Molly's parts, so doing much with little.

I would definitely support asking the full traitor Crown question either during the meeting (maybe using someone from the Merlin's entourage as focus) or just after it and then arranging information transfer.
 
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OK, so let's narrow the scope

[X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving"
-[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council leaks in regards to Red Court
-[X] Give the list of leaks to Merlin. Explain how you did you due diligence when preparing for an ambush as a reason you have the list.
-[X] Put your money where your mouth is and show yourself to be a friend of the Council, after extracting the promise that the information won't be leaked
-[X] Excellencies as needed to sell this: Subterfuge to explain the source of the list, Empathy and Etiquette for the introduction, etc.

Much narrower question. Not all traitors, but leaks and only those related to Red Court. Easier to sell, and even if he doesn't believe us, we could get him to promise not to tell the leaks for a time.
Couldn't we instead ask a more broad question, then simply tailor the info we give the Merlin?

Rather than asking only for traitors in relation to the Red Court, wouldn't something like "How, exactly, is each traitorous member of the White Council betraying their fellows?" work better? We would know what all traitors are doing, and the way the information is presented should also give us their names.
 
Couldn't we instead ask a more broad question, then simply tailor the info we give the Merlin?

Rather than asking only for traitors in relation to the Red Court, wouldn't something like "How, exactly, is each traitorous member of the White Council betraying their fellows?" work better? We would know what all traitors are doing, and the way the information is presented should also give us their names.
I'm not sure this is allowed. Seems kinda word gamey to me. @DragonParadox?
Yeah, I guess that works.

I just don't want to miss the opportunity, DP simulates the world and if we just leave the plot threads to develop on their own they might very well bite us in the backside later. And we can't rely on DF canon info to sufficient extent, too much was already butterflied.

And what's very good about this opportunity, is that we can resolve this with very little, get the info to Ebenezer and through him to people he trusts, and let White Council resolve this on their own, without any other investments on Molly's parts, so doing much with little.

I would definitely support asking the full traitor Crown question either during the meeting (maybe using someone from the Merlin's entourage as focus) or just after it and then arranging information transfer.
I definitely want the full list later, yes.
 
Even if he were a paranoid SoB, no one is likely to take friends/collegues for centuries being accused of bring traitors well. After all, what does it say about yourself that you were friends with them and never noticed.

While no one would take it well someone like the Blackstaff would channel it more in ways that Molly would appreciate i.e. kill the bastards if it turns out to be true and kill her for lying if she is lying It is just that this level of practicality lets say is uncommon

Couldn't we instead ask a more broad question, then simply tailor the info we give the Merlin?

Rather than asking only for traitors in relation to the Red Court, wouldn't something like "How, exactly, is each traitorous member of the White Council betraying their fellows?" work better? We would know what all traitors are doing, and the way the information is presented should also give us their names.

That works, but keep in mind you do have to deal with conservation of detail, the more broad the question the more general the info. For maximum fidelity you would have to know who each traitor is and then ask of each of them 'how are they betraying the Council'. If you ask how each of them are doing of the general focus of 'the white council' you will get more generalities and less dead drop locations.

I'm not sure this is allowed. Seems kinda word gamey to me. @DragonParadox?

It is allowed, just not as efficient as one might hope, you would get something like 'those who are in the Wardens often ensure that their peers fall into ambushes' followed by a flash of such an ambush.
 
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ATB + Hellscry Chakra to detect Ortega should work. That, and plane tracking - I am assuming they have a legit flight path and can be tracked.
ATB and Hellscry should help.
I assume that the kid of the dude who essentially owns Mexico has sufficient pull that their flight path isnt filed ahead of time.
Or tracked on public flight data.

Leaving aside how distances in the air are far larger than distances on the ground and that our "not subtle" presence was never felt more than several hundred meters away (and we'd be starting from several kilometers out), what would she do? She'll have less than a minute to react, even if she detects us, and "jump off a plane" is an action of last resort, most likely.

Ambushing her mid-flight is still the best option to prevent her escaping or calling in reinforcements.
1)Being in the air also puts you against an empty background, so there's no additional activity to even help hide you.
Again, Im given to understand that we are not trivial to anyone with the senses to see.

2) Rapid approach of hostile aerial bandits?
Call for backup on satellite phone. Then alter course, emergency descent, then have her and her security team bail out below 10,000 feet. And call for backup on satellite phone.

Thats what I'd do in her position, at least, assuming her escort cant fly or use shit like Weight of the Feather (Protean 1, V5) to avoid falling damage.
We also should pack some Alchemical Aerosol Mist with holy water.

Reds hate that and it won't hurt mortals.
Excellent idea.
Assuming it doesnt scald Seeker. And even if it does, its worth keeping it in reserve for the potential backstab he might try.


Stories of Gods and Monsters
COMMENTARY
Dont think I've missed that this could just as easily be a trap for Molly with a naagloshii on one side and an armed team of Rampires on the other. Seeker pretty clearly set this entire thing up so Molly cant bring any backup with her.
Else we would simply ambush her at the airport, or on her way from the airport to her home.

Ponzi, Kukulkan....Seeker is a name dropper. Speaks to a certain personal insecurity
We can use that, if necessary.
All in all, he is coming off as one of those edgelords

OPSEC.
Even if we were on better terms with the White Council, simple OPSEC would mean Molly wouldnt blab this shit in front of the Merlin and his entourage. And frankly, he wouldnt expect us to.

He can hear about if after we get back, and put two and two together.
Subterfuge is a key ability for Molly.
So her pokerface Subterfuge roll of 9 beats the naagloshii's Perception roll of 8.

That Seeker Manipulation roll was a thing of beauty though.
Dude rolled 8 successes on 7 dice.
OK, so let's narrow the scope

[X] Plan "Limited Gift Giving"
-[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council leaks in regards to Red Court
-[X] Give the list of leaks to Merlin. Explain how you did you due diligence when preparing for an ambush as a reason you have the list.
-[X] Put your money where your mouth is and show yourself to be a friend of the Council, after extracting the promise that the information won't be leaked
-[X] Excellencies as needed to sell this: Subterfuge to explain the source of the list, Empathy and Etiquette for the introduction, etc.

Much narrower question. Not all traitors, but leaks and only those related to Red Court. Easier to sell, and even if he doesn't believe us, we could get him to promise not to tell the leaks for a time.
Fuck no. We didnt share our list of Thule Society members that we got from Gorfels with anyone other than Harry.
We sure as fuck shouldnt be sharing this. Not with the Merlin.
And not at first meeting.

We have been strenuously warned to keep the Crown under wraps by literally everyone we've told about it.
Dont blow it.
 
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[X] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him
 
The problem with ambushing Duchess Arianna on her way to the Airport is according to Seeker that she uses the masses of humanity as a shield. The airport is filled with innocents, her home is a skyscraper with thousands of other people living in it. Where most Red Court vampires, indeed most supernaturals broadly trust in distance and secrecy to keep them safe Arianna prefers large urban centers where anyone who wants to throw own with her had best be ready to deal with the utter carnage that is an elder of the Red Court unleashing in the middle of a populated area.
 
2) Rapid approach of hostile aerial bandits?
Call for backup on satellite phone. Then alter course, emergency descent, then have her and her security team bail out below 10,000 feet. And call for backup on satellite phone.
Except none of this works because the plane is possessed, and the satellite phone works through an onboard antenna, which is also controlled by a cyberdevil. And that assuming you have detected the approach. Because we would be definitely invisible to radar, and likely wearing some sort of camouflage.
Fuck no. We didnt share our list of Thule Society members that we got from Gorfels with anyone other than Harry.
We sure as fuck shouldnt be sharing this. Not with the Merlin.
And not at first meeting.

We have been strenuously warned to keep the Crown under wraps by literally everyone we've told about it.
Dont blow it.
I would possibly "blow it" if I gave him a list of all traitors. List of all leaks to Red Court is much more plausible.
 
I mean, just to point out one additional complication that pops to mind:
Simon Peabody, the secretary of the Senior Council had mindcontrolled or otherwise put whammies in the heads of essentially all the younger Wardens besides Dresden, who didnt spend time at Edinburgh.

We have no way of knowing which of the Merlin's bodyguard escorts are currently sleeper agents for Peabody, who report to him and can be activated as assassins or the like, like he did to Luccio.
Telling the Merlin about this has the potential to make Peabody launch his go to hell plan to create confusion as he bails.

When they took him by surprise in canon, he still killed over fifty wizards in his escape attempt, got Morgan to essentially suicide intercepting him, and if he'd had the opportunity, he had other Wardens primed as mindcontrolled assassins.
Im assuming any others in position to do harm have similar contingencies.

The problem with ambushing Duchess Arianna on her way to the Airport is according to Seeker that she uses the masses of humanity as a shield. The airport is filled with innocents, her home is a skyscraper with thousands of other people living in it. Where most Red Court vampires, indeed most supernaturals broadly trust in distance and secrecy to keep them safe Arianna prefers large urban centers where anyone who wants to throw own with her had best be ready to deal with the utter carnage that is an elder of the Red Court unleashing in the middle of a populated area.
Skyscraper? Huh. Thats new. Clever.
Not enough though; I'd dump holy water in the ventilation system for a quick cripple.

Fair point; if the option is available, taking her on the move is preferable.
But its not like Seeker is a humanitarian trying to minimize human casualties.
So still paranoid.
 
Skyscraper? Huh. Thats new. Clever.
Not enough though; I'd dump holy water in the ventilation system for a quick cripple.

Fair point; if the option is available, taking her on the move is preferable.
But its not like Seeker is a humanitarian trying to minimize human casualties.
So still paranoid.

Oh he is not but he knows Molly is, that is why he pulled the trick with the van. Still if you want to propose 'you and the skinwalker attack in the middle of a highly populated area' he is game, just be aware rooms may or may not be painted red and not just with vampire blood. Molly suspects that he is trying to ease her into acting more like 'her nature' hence why his first suggestion was blowing up a plane to weaken the enemy, it would kill a bunch of innocent people in ways that would not be as immediately apparent
 
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Except none of this works because the plane is possessed, and the satellite phone works through an onboard antenna, which is also controlled by a cyberdevil. And that assuming you have detected the approach. Because we would be definitely invisible to radar, and likely wearing some sort of camouflage.
1)Her retinue can afford to carry backup satellite phones.
And phones work through the skin of a plane, as I can confirm from both personal experience and news reports.

2)We have been repeatedly described as a mobile Darkhallow.
A millenia old Rampire sorceress can sure as fuck detect us. Her, or someone in her retinue. The Auspex Discipline has the capability to do shit like this, not counting any enchantments on the plane or any bound/contracted spirits.

You dont spend nine figures on a mobile pimpwagon masquerading as a private jet without investing resources in that sort of thing.


3)Ortega threw down with Winter Knight Dresden fairly equally, and only her inexperience at pure magical duels killed her.
She snuck in a plague into the Hidden Halls at Edinburgh in Changes during a diplomatic visit, despite all the magical security around it. You are really underestimating this person's capability, just because we are personally stronger at 1v1 combat.

I would possibly "blow it" if I gave him a list of all traitors. List of all leaks to Red Court is much more plausible.
1)This is a parallel construction situation.
You get names, you use those names to get other incriminating information on them, and launder it that way.
You dont go up and say X, Y and Z are traitors, trust me. Or expose an ability we have been warned to keep quiet.

And you dont rely on the Crown in isolation without corroborating information.


2) There is no indication that people are leaking to the Red Court. At least, not directly.
Peabody was Black Circle, not Red Court.
Dont jump to conclusions.

The Red Court are evil fucks in their own right, but they arent really the movers of this conflict.
 
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I mean, just to point out one additional complication that pops to mind:
Simon Peabody, the secretary of the Senior Council had mindcontrolled or otherwise put whammies in the heads of essentially all the younger Wardens besides Dresden, who didnt spend time at Edinburgh.

We have no way of knowing which of the Merlin's bodyguard escorts are currently sleeper agents for Peabody, who report to him and can be activated as assassins or the like, like he did to Luccio.
Telling the Merlin about this has the potential to make Peabody launch his go to hell plan to create confusion as he bails.

When they took him by surprise in canon, he still killed over fifty wizards in his escape attempt, got Morgan to essentially suicide intercepting him, and if he'd had the opportunity, he had other Wardens primed as mindcontrolled assassins.
Im assuming any others in position to do harm have similar contingencies
OK, so what would you propose? We have one essentially free focus (maybe more if we run social security numbers on Merlin's real name, and use popular media foci for Merlin thr name). Both spilling the guts and withholding information are less than optimal. How do you thread the needle?
 
2) There is no indication that people are leaking to the Red Court.
Peabody was Black Circle, not Red Court.
Dont jump to conclusions.
Yes, exactly. And for this specific situation I don't care if he does. Only leaks tk Red Court matter for this specific interaction.

1)Her retinue can afford to carry backup satellite phones.
And phones work through the skin of a plane, as I can confirm from both personal experience and news reports.
While that's a level of paranoia worthy of Red Court, I am not sure they would have the phones always with them. Why would they?

2)We have been repeatedly described as a mobile Darkhallow.
A millenia old Rampire sorceress can sure as fuck detect us. Her, or someone in her retinue. The Auspex Discipline has the capability to do shit like this, not counting any enchantments on the plane or any bound/contracted spirits.

You dont spend nine figures on a mobile pimpwagon masquerading as a private jet without investing resources in that sort of thing.
And yet, a millenia old white court elder didn't notice us from less than a hundred meters away. A millenium old valkyrie seer mistook us for a mortal in direct face-to-face confrontation. We were able to enter Mac's without everyone clearing out long before we approached it. We were able to walk up to a reception of a fomori stronghold installation with several sorcerers on the property without them noticing us and raising an alarm.

When people look at us, they might notice. But in general? We are not a constant bonfire of dark power. Not in the night sky, when they have no reason to really look.

3)Ortega threw down with Winter Knight Dresden fairly equally, and only her inexperience at pure magical duels killed her.
She snuck in a plague into the Hidden Halls at Edinburgh in Changes during a diplomatic visit, despite all the magical security around it. You are really underestimating this person's capability, just because we are personally stronger at 1v1 combat.
Winter Knight Dresden is what, a greater akuma equivalent? We slaughtered such fairly trivially.
 
VOTE
[X]Plan Information Control
-[X] No, you know there are high placed traitors in the White Council, keep the secret of your plans even if it means you have to stonewall him
--[X] Use the recording of the call with Merlin as a focus for the crown to compile the list of White Council traitors before the meeting
--[X]Bring Michael as an observer/guarantor



RATIONALE
Get the information before going into the meeting with the Merlin.

DONT tell him. We cannot provide bona fides for this information without revealing the Crown, and we cant guarantee that the traitor(s) dont have dupes on the Merlin's staff; one high-placed traitor in canon was the secretary to the Senior Council, the ruling body of the White Council.

We can try and launder it later.
We have Dresden, and through him access to Ebenezar McCoy.
We can talk to Odin, even; he has some idea we have some level of enhanced perception and foresight.

But its not the sort of thing you give to someone on first meeting without a check.
 
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