Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Perfects are overkill OCP in most situations. Good conventional defenses work just as well, if not better (because mote tapping is a thing).
Yeah, famous last words. Should we wait untill a Lord of Outer Night will turn Molly into the rabbit? Or Yama King will try to influence Molly's world-soul? Also, I would remind you that two enemies already tried to shapeshift Molly (Iku Turso and the Walker), but they weren't very good with it. We can't expect the same from the more terrible monsters.
 
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Yes, which is why he needs protection. Shining armor form has 14 soak dice, soaks aggravated at dc5, and is supernaturally strong and fast.

We can make him be able to stand on his own.

And not all our enemies will go for him when he has his own things going on.
No matter what he will always be a softer more ideal target. Just like the Akuma attacked our base and killed one of ours he may also see attacks by our enemies if he starts going out looking for trouble. Sure not from all of them but there is a huge gap between all and none. It only takes one opportunistic mofo to take advantage of recklessness.

Im not saying we shouldn't make him anything. I'm saying we need to explain the situtation to him and bring out the brainwashing Exalted socials we use on Charity when we do. He has always been a high priority target for the Denarians and now even morso.

Micromanaging him isn't possible or moral I know but I'd rather him not get careless and go out looking for an ass beating because we gave him some power. He's already willing to look for it now with Lydia's help no matter how risky. We can't just give him shit and leave it at that.
 
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So votes as they stand.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Aug 25, 2023 at 4:10 AM, finished with 167 posts and 32 votes.
 
Yeah, famous last words. Should we wait untill a Lord of Outer Night will turn Molly into the rabbit? Or Yama King will try to influence Molly's world-soul?
Lord of outer night is a possibility, but we are rolling wits+Occult (7 dice), and such an attack would likely trigger ccc. That's a non-insignificant amount of dice. On the scale of a month we could boost it with a 1 or 2 dot splendor.

Yama Kingnwould first need to get into Molly's hell, which is not easy.

Don't treat this like "without perfects we are defenseless". We are not. Perfects are BS OCPs that allow exalts to flip the gameboard of life. Relying on them only, or treating them as the only viable defense is wrong and in fact quite dangerous.
No matter what he will always be a softer more ideal target. Just like the Akuma attacked our base and killed one of ours he may also see attacks by our enemies if he starts going out looking for trouble. Sure not from all of them but there is a huge gap between all and none. It only takes one opportunistic mofo to take advantage of recklessness.

Im not saying we shouldn't make him anything. I'm saying we need to explain the situtation to him and bring out the brainwashing Exalted socials we use on Charity when we do. He has always been a high priority target for the Denarians and now even morso.

Micromanaging him isn't possible or moral I know but I'd rather him not get careless and go out looking for an ass beating because we gave him some power. He's already willing to look for it now with Lydia's help no matter how risky. We can't just give him shit and leave it at that.
Yes, he will. No solution is perfect. If we brainwash him into accepting his life as a shut-in househusband for Lydia (even assuming they don't break up in this scenario), he still remains a very soft target. If we boost him as much as we can, he could still overestimate himself and/or bite more than he can chew.

Combination of these solutions, as well as giving him access to training, counseling, support and options, is probably the best.

But remember, he and Lydia are set on him getting power right now. Lydia sees him as an equally mature partner, and is working on ways to allow him to grab power to stand with herself against darkness. This is not only about us and Daniel, she has a say here too. As do Charity and Michael.

CCoP is not a magic bullet crafting charm, despite how it is, but it's a vital part to a possible golden resolution of this situation.
 
Lord of outer night is a possibility, but we are rolling wits+Occult (7 dice), and such an attack would likely trigger ccc. That's a non-insignificant amount of dice. On the scale of a month we could boost it with a 1 or 2 dot splendor.

Yama Kingnwould first need to get into Molly's hell, which is not easy.

Don't treat this like "without perfects we are defenseless". We are not. Perfects are BS OCPs that allow exalts to flip the gameboard of life. Relying on them only, or treating them as the only viable defense is wrong and in fact quite dangerous.

Yeah, we will be just relying on dice and hope that our enemies will not be very good in shaping. This is very passive stance on things in my point of view. I don't ask to vote for the perfect defence or attack, they can be sublimated with the tools or healthbar or Alchemy, I'm proposing to vote to avoid a hole in our build that relies on chance and goodwill of GM, before taking the next shiny thing.

Yes, he will. No solution is perfect. If we brainwash him into accepting his life as a shut-in househusband for Lydia (even assuming they don't break up in this scenario), he still remains a very soft target. If we boost him as much as we can, he could still overestimate himself and/or bite more than he can chew.

Combination of these solutions, as well as giving him access to training, counseling, support and options, is probably the best.

But remember, he and Lydia are set on him getting power right now. Lydia sees him as an equally mature partner, and is working on ways to allow him to grab power to stand with herself against darkness. This is not only about us and Daniel, she has a say here too. As do Charity and Michael.

CCoP is not a magic bullet crafting charm, despite how it is, but it's a vital part to a possible golden resolution of this situation.
I remember when we voted for the Kingdom charm you said that it will help us delegate and give us resources and specialists. You are now implying that the only way to help Daniel is CCoP. Aren't you being intentionally misleading now?
 
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Lord of outer night is a possibility, but we are rolling wits+Occult (7 dice), and such an attack would likely trigger ccc. That's a non-insignificant amount of dice. On the scale of a month we could boost it with a 1 or 2 dot splendor.

Yama Kingnwould first need to get into Molly's hell, which is not easy.

Don't treat this like "without perfects we are defenseless". We are not. Perfects are BS OCPs that allow exalts to flip the gameboard of life. Relying on them only, or treating them as the only viable defense is wrong and in fact quite dangerous.
We dont have the time for that now, we are gonna enter a combat situation and we might fight one of the higher ups of the red court. We need the antishaping charm right now.
 
Yeah, we will be just relying on dice and hope that our enemies will not be very good in shaping. This is very passive stance on things in my point of view. I don't ask to vote for the perfect defence or attack, they can be sublimated with the tools or healthbar or Alchemy, I'm proposing to vote to avoid a hole in our build that relies on chance and goodwill of GM, before taking the next shiny thing.
We are always relying on dice, that's how the game mechanics work. And 7 counter dice with dc adjusters is not "hoping the enemy is not very good at shaping". Shaping effects seem to be rare, and large numbers of dice are also rare.

Are you planning to fight a 3rd circle equivalent next morning?

Also, mote tapping is also an issue.

I remember when we voted for the Kingdom charm you said that it will help us delegate and give us resources and specialists. You are now implying that the only way to help Daniel is CCoP. Aren't you being intentionally misleading now?
I am not. Kingdom gives us resources, specialists, help. But we are an Exalt, and mortals can only dream of matching our excellence. The argument is not that we can't give Daniel magical pistols and power armor. It's that he is I portent enough to us that giving him more is valuable, especially if he wants to fight alongside us.

And Daniel is not the only reason for CXoP, even if the most significant one.
We dont have the time for that now, we are gonna enter a combat situation and we might fight one of the higher ups of the red court. We need the antishaping charm right now.
Why? Dresden fought her, and red court in general. Dresden doesn't have anti shaping defenses.

Why do people think that we need shaping defenses when amhushing Red Court princess? We successfully fought a named Walker, and a greater akuma. Why do you guys think this enemy would be qualitatively more dangerous? Especially if we have backup.

Also, even if the fight is tomorrow, we might have enough time to craft a shaping defense enhancer this night. It's only a 1 dot splendor in the base form. 2 dot at max.
 
Why? Dresden fought her, and red court in general. Dresden doesn't have anti shaping defenses.

Why do people think that we need shaping defenses when amhushing Red Court princess? We successfully fought a named Walker, and a greater akuma. Why do you guys think this enemy would be qualitatively more dangerous? Especially if we have backup.

Also, even if the fight is tomorrow, we might have enough time to craft a shaping defense enhancer this night. It's only a 1 dot splendor in the base form. 2 dot at max.
We dont have the time to do that and use crown at the same time to get info or asking Mabs help to get troops, also getting the antishaping charm is always critical you fool. We are gonna get targetted by the fallen, the yama kings, the red court, the walkers... and you think that repairing the only fault in our built with wood instead of Titanium is a good idea. Also when dresden killed her there was a fucking global ritual taking place so it's probable that most of their mages were using so much energy that they didnt have time to curse Harry to death. We are entering a place full of red court mages and they only need to be Lucky once in order to defeat us.
 
We dont have the time to do that and use crown at the same time to get info or asking Mabs help to get troops, also getting the antishaping charm is always critical you fool. We are gonna get targetted by the fallen, the yama kings, the red court, the walkers... and you think that repairing the only fault in our built with wood instead of Titanium is a good idea. Also when dresden killed her there was a fucking global ritual taking place so it's probable that most of their mages were using so much energy that they didnt have time to curse Harry to death. We are entering a place full of red court mages and they only need to be Lucky once in order to defeat us.
Stop. You are conflating multiple things. Some of them flat wrong too. Let's separate the things:
1) We are going to be ambushing Red King's daughter soon, likely tomorrow. That's an ambush. While she probably will have bodyguards, we are not storming the heart of Red Court's power. The meeting is either going to be in naagloshii's den, or in neutral territory.

We alone are a drastic overkill for this fight. With naagloshii fighting alongside us, or even a three way fight, that's even easier. I see no need for shaping defense here.

2) We are going to be a target of multiple factions due to our kingdom. That's not an immediate issue. Those are immortals, the first thing they are going to do would be to gather information about us. That takes time. Some of them are capable of lightning chess, but the only ones to who might know they need to act fast by recognizing an exalt for what they are, are denarians and walkers. And denarians are bound by rules and we have backup in Michael. And we have spooked walkers.

The simplest plan (kakuri ambush) still took more than a month of prep. And it drastically underestimated us. More complicated plans require more prep time.

This is an issue, but we have time here. Buy CCoP, craft shaping protection, then buy perfect.

Relying on perfects only is counter productive, self defeating even. It flashes our ace in the hole early and forces intelligent enemies to adapt, such as developing mote tapping tactics.

There is a reason why nuclear power nations don't disband conventional military.
 
There are a few folks voting for plans that get us EIPP, but not the EIPP plan that has a chance to win. If ya'll switched over to Justified Paranoia, it would be tied with the Forge Empress plan.

[X] Plan Justified Paranoia
[X] Plan Staying In Shape
 
1) Harry is a Starborn, and is apparently of significant importance to the current celestial cycle going on.
He's survived two entropy curses I can recall(Death Masks and Blood Rites), and at least one Shroud of Turin-channeled genocide plague ritual (Death Masks). And he ate a death curse around a year ago(Dead Beat).

We are an OCP, but I dont think its a fair characterization to say he's a less interesting target for that sort of shit.


2)Antimagic bracelets are a Sorcery Path 3 effect.
I'm not saying he's unimportant but he's not a piñata you can beat up for ancient lore, neat powers, or unique resources, either. We have been for a while and are getting more so all the time.

I don't buy that a 3 dot item is peer to a5 dot charm, and we're going to be targeted by the highest grade of opposition. It doesn't matter if it blocks 80% of cursed sent our way if the last 20% are the seriou business sort.

For Molly thats Wits 3 + Occult 5 for a dicepool of 8. Her dicepool cap would be (Willpower) 9.
For Lydia its Wits 4 + Occult 1 for a dicepool of 5. Her dicepool cap would be (Willpower) 5.
I thought that pool was much smaller, but it's still a mortal pool against variable difficulty and it doesn't grant scene long immunity to repeat attempts.

Shaping of the sort EIPP is far and away the easiest way to deal with Molly. A 5 dot charm is the best option for defending against it, and unlike standard attacks losing once here is game over.

If we'd rolled poorly that fomor would have turned us into chaos spawn before we'd even hit essence 2. That could still happen with this, but our odds are better.
 
We won't be able to craft abything before the end of the month, so we might as well wait to buy that Charm till then.
There are two assertions here:
1) That we can't craft anything now. @DragonParadox would we be able to make a 1 dot splendor before the night is over? Assuming we use malfean coffee of course.
2) that we'll have enough xp to buy craft by the start of next month, that's 15 xp, nearly an arc's worth. I am not prepared to apmake this bet.
 
There are two assertions here:
1) That we can't craft anything now. @DragonParadox would we be able to make a 1 dot splendor before the night is over? Assuming we use malfean coffee of course.
2) that we'll have enough xp to buy craft by the start of next month, that's 15 xp, nearly an arc's worth. I am not prepared to apmake this bet.
I'd be willing to wait another month too.

Crafting is ultimatly a very boring number-go-up game that we don't really need for the forseable future.
 
2) that we'll have enough xp to buy craft by the start of next month, that's 15 xp, nearly an arc's worth. I am not prepared to apmake this bet.
No we only need 13xp because we have left two xp out in order to buy something else later on and we are gonna kill one of the higher ups of the red court by entering her base which is gonna give us a lot of xp
 
There are two assertions here:
1) That we can't craft anything now. @DragonParadox would we be able to make a 1 dot splendor before the night is over? Assuming we use malfean coffee of course.
2) that we'll have enough xp to buy craft by the start of next month, that's 15 xp, nearly an arc's worth. I am not prepared to apmake this bet.

Rushing splendors is risky since it is playing with old and powerful magics... but for a single dot in an emergency I'd say you can make one in 24 hours. Not something you want to make a habit out of if you value the local topography and the people who live on it.
 
No we only need 13xp because we have left two xp out in order to buy something else later on and we are gonna kill one of the higher ups of the red court by entering her base which is gonna give us a lot of xp
Where are you getting "by entering her base" from? And even then 13 xp from a single fight is a lot.
I'd be willing to wait another month too.

Crafting is ultimatly a very boring number-go-up game that we don't really need for the forseable future.
We have very different perspectives on crafting, and one of the requirements for wonders is that they are interesting.
Rushing splendors is risky since it is playing with old and powerful magics... but for a single dot in an emergency I'd say you can make one in 24 hours. Not something you want to make a habit out of if you value the local topography and the people who live on it.
Ok. That's more than enough. We can have +2 guaranteed successes for shaping defenses if people are feeling paranoid. And a +1 DC adjuster against hostile glamors.
 
Agree to disagree as I am with Yog here.

We clearly have different views as I value the ability to make magical artifacts.

Me too, I like crafting it's just that this is not the time to buy that. We have to prioritize our own safety

Also...
Where are you getting "by entering her base" from? And even then 13 xp from a single fight is a lot.
As you have said 13 is quite a lot which means that our 20 xp charm is gonna be even more difficult to buy. If we dont buy it now we will be unprotected for several months
 
[X] Plan Staying In Shape
-[X] Molly 22 exp
—[X] Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy 20 is exp
—[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm
—[X] Buy down touch of frost 2 exp
-[X] Lydia 9 exp
—[X] Unimpeded Assault of the Deathless 9 exp

[X] Plan Justified Paranoia
-[X] Molly, 22 XP
--[X] Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy: 20 XP
--[X] Banked XP: 2xp

-[X] Lydia, 9 XP
--[X] Impervious Skin of Stone Meditation (••) 6 xp
--[X] Acute Senses 1 Merit: 3xp
-[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm

Approval voting the other EIPP plan.


Ok. That's more than enough. We can have +2 guaranteed successes for shaping defenses if people are feeling paranoid. And a +1 DC adjuster against hostile glamors.
Didn't you have plans for the dream goo we have in stock? What else are we going to make this with on short notice?

ng wits+Occult (7 dice), and such an attack would likely trigger ccc. That's a non-insignificant amount of dice. On the scale of a month we could boost it with a 1 or 2 dot splendor.

Yama Kingnwould first need to get into Molly's hell, which is not easy.

Don't treat this like "without perfects we are defenseless". We are not. Perfects are BS OCPs that allow exalts to flip the gameboard of life. Relying on them only, or treating them as the only viable defense is wrong and in fact quite dangerous.
So we're supposed to wait to get the defensive charm that matters to an attack we're seeing frequently right now and bank on 20 xp + a buy point before someone we absolutely need it for shows up? We get taken by surprise a lot on a strategic level, why would this be any different?

Crafting is a lot of fun, I want the charm nearly as much as you do, but we have weak point in our defenses and your stop gap isn't an adequate substitute.

It doesn't cover the action cost or timing issue and only partially hits the difficulty one. Any of the difficulty reducers or dice adders from other charms do more and better work applied to EIPP than they do a counterspelling charm.

We can't craft anything if we explode into tentacles or something from a fomor curse.
 
[X] Plan Staying In Shape
-[X] Molly 22 exp
—[X] Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy 20 is exp
—[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm
—[X] Buy down touch of frost 2 exp
-[X] Lydia 9 exp
—[X] Unimpeded Assault of the Deathless 9 exp

[X] Plan Justified Paranoia
-[X] Molly, 22 XP
--[X] Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy: 20 XP
--[X] Banked XP: 2xp
-[X] Lydia, 9 XP
--[X] Impervious Skin of Stone Meditation (••) 6 xp
--[X] Acute Senses 1 Merit: 3xp
-[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm
 
As you have said 13 is quite a lot which means that our 20 xp charm is gonna be even more difficult to buy. If we dont buy it now we will be unprotected for several months
Why are you completely dismissing non-perfect defenses? A 1 dot splendor guarantees us +2 successes for counter magic, and hits an enemy with a +1 DC if their attack counts as a glamour. A 2 dot splendor also gives us a -2 DC adjustment on those rolls. That's in addition to Molly's base defenses, which she can't botch, and has an excellency for.
 
Didn't you have plans for the dream goo we have in stock? What else are we going to make this with on short notice?
On short notice and for a 1 dot splendor? Iron. Or Uranium. Possibly our blood. It's the basest of the simplest of splendors. Maybe the remains of coffee/tea drank by archangel Uriel.
So we're supposed to wait to get the defensive charm that matters to an attack we're seeing frequently right now and bank on 20 xp + a buy point before someone we absolutely need it for shows up? We get taken by surprise a lot on a strategic level, why would this be any different?

Crafting is a lot of fun, I want the charm nearly as much as you do, but we have weak point in our defenses and your stop gap isn't an adequate substitute.

It doesn't cover the action cost or timing issue and only partially hits the difficulty one. Any of the difficulty reducers or dice adders from other charms do more and better work applied to EIPP than they do a counterspelling charm.

We can't craft anything if we explode into tentacles or something from a fomor curse.
How often are we seeing shaping attacks that we barely scrape by? Honest question, because I don't remember them being as frequent as you seem to recall.

And, again, non-perfect defenses are a thing.
 
Why are you completely dismissing non-perfect defenses? A 1 dot splendor guarantees us +2 successes for counter magic, and hits an enemy with a +1 DC if their attack counts as a glamour. A 2 dot splendor also gives us a -2 DC adjustment on those rolls. That's in addition to Molly's base defenses, which she can't botch, and has an excellency for.
Counterspelling is an opposed roll, the charm requires one success to block shaping regardless of what our opponent rolls.

Counter spelling is capped by willpower and therefore can't benefit from excellency, but casting has all the usual bullshit to get significant dice pools behind it.

Both have a risk of failure, but you're banking on always getting more successes than the enemy defending with a mortal dice pool against whatever they bring to the fight.

You're underselling the problem because you're impatient and want to start the cool crafting stuff as soon as possible.
 
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