Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Yzarc said:

Hmm.....so they would be a valid target for the charm then? If so, then it seems like a easy way to abuse the respawn mechanic to say, convert the moon into our hell.

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They would not as they are creatures of darkness and that has primacy, the charm requires that you sacrifice non-CoD beings.

DragonParadox said:

They would not as they are creatures of darkness and that has primacy, the charm requires that you sacrifice non-CoD beings.

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I think there is some confusion here. The charm says Sacrifice humans for 10 yards. It then says sacrifice a Supernatural beings (Who are not CoDs.) for 100 yards.

She can grow a wasteland by either using this Charm again, or else through sacrifices within its boundaries. The murder of a human being expands the waste by another 10 yards in all directions. The murder of a supernatural being (that is not a creature of darkness) such as a mage or werewolf increases its radius by 100 yards.

The Text Explicitly separates the two and adds the Do not be a CoD ONLY for Supernatural beings. So from my reading, Humans, regardless of if they are CoDs or not, are valid sacrifices.

Yzarc said:

I think there is some confusion here. The charm says Sacrifice humans for 10 yards. It then says sacrifice a Supernatural beings (Who are not CoDs.) for 100 yards.

She can grow a wasteland by either using this Charm again, or else through sacrifices within its boundaries. The murder of a human being expands the waste by another 10 yards in all directions. The murder of a supernatural being (that is not a creature of darkness) such as a mage or werewolf increases its radius by 100 yards.

The Text Explicitly separates the two and adds the Do not be a CoD ONLY for Supernatural beings. So from my reading, Humans, regardless of if they are CoDs or not, are valid sacrifices.

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Other charms on the list make it clear that feeding CoDs to your power is not nourishing. Like your Shintai does not reset from sending CoDs to hell. The way I am reading that charm is that the sacrifice of a human gives you 10 meters, the sacrifice of a non-CoD supernatural being gives you 100 and the sacrifice of a CoD gives you nothing.

Gonna run, will talk more later.

The human sacrifice thing seems like a horrible idea to me; Molly simply wouldn't ever want to and actually doing it would turn people against us that we want on our side.

Trading access to the world as it is and the people in it for territory is a bad bargain.

uju32 said:

1) Mab was dealing with a Nemesis infestation taking out her number two and leaving her incapable of multi-tasking as she normally would. That was kinda the point of the Red Court poisoning the Leanansidhe in Grave Peril; for most of the series Winter has been working with holes in their command chain fucking up their ability to respond properly.

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Man we really fuck with that don't we?

uju32 said:

1) Dont get it twisted.
Mab did not equip Dresden with the Winter Knight Mantle, and send along the Leanansidhe, her second in command and the third most powerful person in Winter, then point him at the Red Court by accident.

Odin and 12 other Odin-tier practitioners did not show up in time to be backup on Lea's signal by accident.
Odin did not arrange to teleport an army of not-tengu to the battlefield by accident.
If you dont believe me, ask Ebenezar:

Very little that happened there was by accident.
He was put in that position by the machinations of subtle people with longterm planning. Mab among them.



2)Titania isnt the general that commands reality's defenses, Mab is. There's a reason for that.

It might just be that Ethniu, and whoever was pulling her strings, knew precisely what they were doing when they decided it was better to risk running into Titania at her most powerful than Mab at her most powerful.
Not that it stopped her getting beat.

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1. Don't get it twisted. Nothing you've mentioned in any way contradicts Mab having little to do with the Red Court being genocided, because again nobody she ever dealt with ever had any interactions with Martin, who was the true mastermind behind Dresden genociding the Red Court. Dresden came pretty close to dying in the pyramid to the Red King and his Lords, especially when they went nuts, and only Dresden killing Susan saved the day. Meanwhile, Mab's contribution to the fight was busy dealing with the literal mooks, given how many Lords were still with the Red King when Dresden bumbled into them.

2. Nah. We've seen Titania's tactical acumen, and it far surpasses Mab's. Ethniu just fell for Mab's hype like everyone else, which is somewhat confusing given she kicked her through a wall in Peace Talks and KO'd her with just that, but maybe she thought Mab had to have something backing her rep. Sadly, Mab did not live up to the hype.

uju32 said:

1) And? You say this like its an impugnation on her competence.
Mab is not an absolute tyrant even in her own court, and other parties get to act, even people in her faction. She fixed Lea; she couldnt fix Maeve. She had a backup for that.

Furthermore, it took a thousand fucking years of plot and contrivance, and the cooperation of members of multiple factions on Earth who should have known better for Nemesis to pull even that off.


2) Picking the right tool is a skill.
Giving them the right resources, and the proper support, is a skill. Picking your timing is a skill.
Mab is a general; this sort of thing is in part, her raison d'etre.


3) Mab was clear about none of them being irreplaceable.

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1. The fact that Nemesis came that close alone is pretty damning for the foremost protector of reality. Really pokes holes in the idea that Mab is some perfect ubermensch who can't be replaced.

2. Yeah? I can't think of any person who couldn't do the same. Call the wizard to deal with stuff in the mundane world, who'd ever think of that? Sad as it is that Mab's one claim to competence is doing what anyone else in her position would, it only further underlines that her few 'correct moves' were clearly obvious to anyone with a brain.

3. Yeah? Guess what would've happened if Dresden died. Ethniu would've won, and consequently, the Walker would've won. He's pretty irreplaceable at that time and place.

uju32 said:

1)Ethniu was mad, and a terrible general, or at least an uncaring one.
Thats not the same thing as being a bad soldier. Or that there wasnt a plan behind her choices.
We dont always get a villain monologue to tell us everything our enemy considered in their planning.

And for Mab, someone had to pull aggro at that point.
Just like for morale purposes someone had to demonstrate Ethniu wasnt invincible. Someone had to shake the Titan's confidence in herself and her plan.

Someone had to pay the price. Mab did. It didnt even stop her running coordination even when her body was down.



2) That is not how Dresdenverse magic works as far as we know IC and OOC.
Odin does not gain power from being Santa Claus, and faith does not translate to magic power in the Dresdenverse, else ascension rituals would involve raising international cults, not trying to eat ghosts.

Besides,Santa Claus did not show up to that fight; Odin did, on Sleipnir.
Mantles matter.


3) No, that is not true.

It was stated both in the book and in Words of Jim that the White God nerfed all characters that wanted to stay involved in the mortal world, and Ethniu evaded the server-wide patch by essentially retiring her player character by staying in the NeverNever.
And very few people knew she was still around.


4)The reason Ethniu lost is precisely because she couldnt handle Mab's Megamind 3000 IQ plan.

Do you think it was by accident that Mab sent Dresden to help Nicodemus break into Hades vault in Skin Game and to come into possession of the parts to assemble the Spear of Destiny?
Or that there were enough military-grade weapons in Chicago to equip a militia? Anti-tank missiles dont grow on trees.

Mab has been investing in contingencies for a long time.
You'll only see them if shit goes wrong.

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1. If Ethniu had a brain, she would've targeted Dresden given only Demonreach had a snowball's chance in hell of actually stopping her in Chicago. Missing that vulnerability is a pretty massive mistake considering that one move would've won her the fight.

And Mab didn't exactly shake Ethniu's confidence in herself, given she just dope-slapped Mab for the second time and demonstrated Mab could do nothing against her in a straight-up fight. Titania was the one who demonstrated the Ethniu wasn't invincible, when she washed away the fear powering the Eye with her rainstorm. Mab just damaged the morale of her own troops and more importantly deprived them of one of their strongest combatants for no reason whatsoever. Mab already had aggro, all she had to do was sidestep the Eye and let Dresden summon Titania with a steel chair, instead of taking the quickest way out of the fight that she could've.

2. My point is Ethniu is a mythological nobody who still had the stones to dick all over the assembled immortal might of the Accorded nations.

Word of Jim:

So I made him that character who said "alright I'll set aside my deific immortality and I'll throw into the game like anybody else will" and then immediately started building himself to become someone cool and taking all these other mantles to maintain his immortality so he could continue doing what Odin always did which was defend and teach humanity.

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Odin lost no power when the White God banned everybody, he just lost his immortality in exchange for continuing to play the game. He got other Mantles to maintain immortality and for extra power but still ended up face down ass up when Ethniu came calling.

3. Wrong.

There actually are gods and stuff around and functioning in our world but they're posing as mortals because they're getting way more play as professional wrestlers and rock stars than they ever did as deities. In our world there's a lot of like the old Greek and Roman deities that are still hanging around, they just look very very different and they're not really allowed to do anything except hang on and watch and observe, they're not allowed to get involved in mortal affairs. So they tend to be a lot of smoke and mirrors and thunder and not a lot of things happening, they're not like Odin who is actually involved in the world and there's something right there. That is sort of the limit that the deities have found themselves running into. Eventually at some point in the Dresden Files history there came a point where the Creator was like "okay guys, you were supposed to guide and protect humanity. You sort of did okay in some instances and some places but now it's time for the humans to be making their own way and everybody needs to step off and do it. And if you want to stay involved in the affairs of humanity you're going to have to play and be subject to death as a mortal just like everybody else." And can you really see Zeus going "oh I'm so enamored with the mortals I'm going to risk myself to help them"? You can't really see that but of all the deities in sort of the major western pantheons that I was looking at the one that I really thought would stay involved, it had to be Odin. It had to be the guy who would go to people's homes and visit them to check up that they were maintaining their host rights properly and stuff like that you know. He was genuinely involved with humanity. So I made him that character who said "alright I'll set aside my deific immortality and I'll throw into the game like anybody else will" and then immediately started building himself to become someone cool and taking all these other mantles to maintain his immortality so he could continue doing what Odin always did which was defend and teach humanity. I wanted to have that character in the world doing that that was so much fun to get to write I can't get enough of it I love it.

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Literally all the other gods other than Odin did the same as Ethniu. I doubt the White God would've let them all come back in roarin' as Ethniu did if that was a loophole, so it's clear that Ethniu's just naturally that swole (otherwise why didn't Odin just call in Thor to give her the People's Elbow?)

4. The fuck? Mab sure as hell didn't 3000 IQ Death Note Rube Goldberg her victory in Battle Ground, not unless one of her names is Contessa. Given she didn't give Dresden a bodyguard or even tell him that he was the most important asset they had on their side, who absolutely could not die in any circumstance, I really can't see her foreseeing years ahead of time that Dresden would need to team up with Super Denarian Marcone (the most powerful wizard on the planet with the least amount of training) to double dog Ethniu after she needed a breather from soloing everybody else worth a damn.

Yes, I do believe Mab's 'victory' in Battle Ground was absolutely on accident, in spite of Mab's best efforts to pull her own team down into hell with her.

uju32 said:

There is no elegance in a close quarters firefight against a tank.
You pay the price to engage it when you can catch it.


Ethniu appears to heal aggravated damage in combat time, and to have wound penalty negation.
We see her do it in the aftermath of the Eye's backlash. And even with two Swords on the battlefield, noone thought they'd be able to kill her, just to bind her.

Please dont assume that literally everyone else involved here, from the Faerie Queens to the Knights to the Forest Person ubermage to Odin, literally have no idea of how to fight.


Ethniu knows precisely what Demonreach is. Why would she oblige you?
Go stand on it, and she'll burn Chicago in your absence.
Which is what she came to do.

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Buddy, I wish I didn't have to, but Mab is literally forcing me to acknowledge she doesn't know how to fight. Titania sure did, given her alpha strike involved disabling her enemy's superweapon, but Mab does not know how to fight, as was shown in Battle Ground despite your own fervent desire to the contrary.

Ethniu knows precisely what Demonreach is, you say. Funny given how she didn't choose to kill Dresden first and foremost in Battle Ground then. Funny how she didn't seem to know where it is, given she decided to fight Dresden on its front porch. Funny how she didn't burn Chicago to the ground and instead went after Dresden after she'd been completely exhausted, rather than heading back to kill all the immortals she'd piledrivered into the ground. Early you argued she wasn't a bad soldier, despite clear proof to the contrary. She came in without a plan, let her emotions cloud everything she did, and still came within an inch of ending everybody. Is it any wonder I think we could take her given her lack of anything save raw power? (Now who does that remind you of? *cough* Mab *cough*)

uju32 said:

1) Mab was dealing with a Nemesis infestation taking out her number two and leaving her incapable of multi-tasking as she normally would. That was kinda the point of the Red Court poisoning the Leanansidhe in Grave Peril; for most of the series Winter has been working with holes in their command chain fucking up their ability to respond properly.

And frankly, mortals breaking the Laws to reinforce the Red Court with Outsiders is also in the White Council's purview.
Not, strictly speaking, her job.


2)No it isnt. Our PoV character, the 30-something year old wizard called Harry Dresden barely knows how the world works save in broad strokes. The fact that we dont know what the qualifications are doesnt mean they dont exist.
Or that every new Queen doesnt invest in contingencies for their replacement as soon as they ascend to office.


3) Winter first expressed an interest in Molly back in Grave Peril when she was 13ish iirc, before the Vampire War started, and before the Leanansidhe was infested in the first place, and a year before she used magic for the first time.
Back then, Lea offered to exchange Amoracchius for Michael's first child.

After Harry died, she spent almost a year being trained by Lea, calling her Auntie and doing Ragged Lady duties in Chicago.
I doubt any of that was random. It seldom is when you are dealing with immortals.

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1. As you say, "for most of the series Winter has been working with holes in their command chain fucking up their ability to respond properly." Not a stellar recommendation of their ability to keep up with the Joneses, which combined with their inhumane and cruel mindset more than justify an imminent restructuring.

2. My point is that the Winter Queen, Lady, and Knight ain't positions in a pyramid scheme; there's job mobility here, and if one gets ganked it's not gonna take a miracle to rustle up a replacement.

3. Molly was being molded to be the Summer Lady, not the Winter Lady. She was able to act as a backup despite being intentionally molded in the opposing mindset of the Mantle of Winter.

uju32 said:

1)Killing her after the fact doesnt change the fact that the deed is done.


2) You can count the number of people who could 1v1 Mab on both hands and still have fingers left over.
And thats with her out where you can get at her; if she was in her own territory, with her own armies, good luck.
There's a reason Titania taking her on is essentially a mutual kill at best.

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1. Does it? Titania sure ain't sitting around doing nothing if Mab tries and cast Ice Age for whatever reason, and given how quickly she'll die I doubt Mab could manage more than a year without summer, which while a disaster it certainly doesn't mean the end of the world. Which is why Mab would never do the deed, considering killing her after the fact very much causes the deed to be undone.

2. Please, if Mab was in the Nevernever trying to end the world, all the other goons hiding in the Nevernever are free to take a shot at her. Which includes gods like Zeus, Shiva, and all those nice and restrained gentlebeings. Given Mab trying to Ice Age the planet would be motivation enough for everyone to gang up on her, it wouldn't be much of a fight for Winter. Not to mention given Winter's purpose, I can't see Mother Winter helping Mab kill humanity (but she probably wouldn't stop her given how useless and irrelevant the Mothers are).

uju32 said:

I disagree.

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As is your prerogative. I disagree with your opinion regarding Mab's competence as well.

DragonParadox said:

It does not appear to have changed you you are just seeing two overlapping suns if you look up, which really should not be physically possible, but you can see the green through the gold, laws of physics be damned.

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We're an exalt in her place of power. If the laws of physics want a say in things, then they get in line, and they politely ask permission.

firefrog600 said:

I mean we can at least agree when it comes to pushing through pain

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Harry has an approach to pain. He appreciates pain. Hell, in Ghost Story he practically has a love letter to pain, and goes on about how it is life. Harry is a masochist.

firefrog600 said:

But, no there are super evil things in dresden files which aren't demons.

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Proven Guilty shows that demon isn't any sort of technical term. It's just a general thing to call any hostile inhuman thing from beyond. Not from the main reality of Earth, has claws and fangs, and trying to eat my face? Yeah, that's a demon.

firefrog600 said:

I'll always be sad the chances harry stockholms lash again are basically non existent.

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Why do you say that?

[X] Introduce yourself as you are, as one who does not know them well but wishes to, as one who is young by the measure of this world, but wishing rule justly and wisely for the benefit of all
-[X] ATB, Leadership excellency
-[X] Stunt: Pausing for a moment between heartbeats, you catch your visage reflected in one of the numerous camera-eyes upon you. A being of terrible awe and glory perched imperiously upon her throne, clad in basalt and brass, her face hidden by the a war helmet. The next words you say are the most important words of your life so far, you realize. Who do you want to be? You shift your posture ever so slightly, making yourself look more approachable, less of a threat. Feeling the ever present ferocious storms of your realm sway in tune with your words, you speak: "Hello to all of you. I am Molly Carpenter, the one you have been waiting for, and from the throne at the center of this Creation I welcome you all to the first day of the rest of our lives. Our, because we are in this together. As you will learn in the formal releases to come, I am not perfect, nor omniscient. I cannot say that I fully grasp the enormity and the depth of our world yet. What I can state and vow is that I want to learn about all of you, and that I will do my best by you, and to the benefit of us all. It is with this in mind that I declare my first decree - for as long as I live, balefire cancer will no longer torment those under my aegis"

TheGrape said:

1. The fact that Nemesis came that close alone is pretty damning for the foremost protector of reality. Really pokes holes in the idea that Mab is some perfect ubermensch who can't be replaced

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Nemesis had been trying and failing for millennia before they made it far enough to play this game.

Even if Mab was flawlessly perfect at everything, which she isn't, that isn't enough to ensure determined and powerful opposition always loses without making any progress.

@uju32 is overstating things in my view, but your standards are unrealistic. Nobody is going to have a perfect record here, and when something slips the enemy will exploit it to the hilt. If we replace her then in the fullness of time Nemesis or whatever replaces it after we eat the original will pull at least one over on us too.

Sure we're potentially more powerful, but the primordials and exalted both got screwed despite being in the league we're aiming for. More powerful and skilled means more options and better capacity to handle things going wrong, it doesn't mean you always win.

Yog said:

I can agree to change that part, but how do we introduce ourselves? Introducing herself as Molly seems out of place.

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I'd say it actually makes the most sense given the main vote. This vote is about not being the grand ascension of the God-Empress of Hell. It's the friendly introduction of Molly to her people. Which name does she use when she's just being herself in life outside of any sort of formality with friends and family? Molly.

That's the name that should be used. The name that fits a friendly introduction of her as just the person she is rather than the formal power that be.

BronzeTongue said:

Nemesis had been trying and failing for millennia before they made it far enough to play this game.

Even if Mab was flawlessly perfect at everything, which she isn't, that isn't enough to ensure determined and powerful opposition always loses without making any progress.

@uju32 is overstating things in my view, but your standards are unrealistic. Nobody is going to have a perfect record here, and when something slips the enemy will exploit it to the hilt. If we replace her then in the fullness of time Nemesis or whatever replaces it after we eat the original will pull at least one over on us too.

Sure we're potentially more powerful, but the primordials and exalted both got screwed despite being in the league we're aiming for. More powerful and skilled means more options and better capacity to handle things going wrong, it doesn't mean you always win.

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I'm not asking for perfection and honestly for anyone else Mab's record would be great, given how long she's defended reality successfully.

It's just when people start talking about how she's irreplaceable and never takes a loss despite all the proof to the contrary, that I get a little heated. It's less the idea of having to perfectly defend against every Outside incursion and more than you can't use your record of defending against Outside incursions to justify your continued existence when said record isn't demonstrably sufficient to give you carte blanche over your war crimes as Mab and her supporters seem to think it does.

[X]OctarineShrike

Isnt the first and the second the same but different names??

So, it occurs to me that while we don't know the Path of Summoning yet, Harry does. Depending on how much he trusts us and the whole situation, he has just gotten a very large boost in power. Even if by the Rules of White God he has to pay equal services, he could most likely exchange "training Molly in the Paths of Sorcery and performing services for her in the real world" in exchange for aid. And being able to call forth a SWAT team of power armored magical dragon-men is a strong argument.

[X] Welcome them to the wider cosmos, an era of change is at hand, but they should not be fearful for it will be a fair one, for those wishing a challenge of heroism and glory, for scholars of new lore, for all better richer lives
-[X] ATB, Leadership excellency

Updating vote.

Really not a fan of the "first day of school" feel I am getting from the currently winning options.

BronzeTongue said:

The human sacrifice thing seems like a horrible idea to me; Molly simply wouldn't ever want to and actually doing it would turn people against us that we want on our side

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Their are loads of ways to get sacrifices without issue. For one find some old people near death, and offer them money to leave behind for their loved ones. Or some variation of that. Not like the charm requires that they be unwilling.

Yog said:

So, it occurs to me that while we don't know the Path of Summoning yet, Harry does. Depending on how much he trusts us and the whole situation, he has just gotten a very large boost in power. Even if by the Rules of White God he has to pay equal services, he could most likely exchange "training Molly in the Paths of Sorcery and performing services for her in the real world" in exchange for aid. And being able to call forth a SWAT team of power armored magical dragon-men is a strong argument.

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Brokering a deal with the white council of this nature might be worthwhile as well.

Our people deserve to be paid for their work, so not all of it would be to our direct profit exactly, but if the council can be convinced to trust us then we could act as a direct counter to the issue of the red court's summoned demons/outsiders.

If they specifically summon our devils and not mortals it's even low risk. Most DF entities of that type don't die if you kill them in the mortal world, they get kicked back home. You've got to do something special or follow them home to make sure they stay that way.

This all comes up with Binder and his goons, because it's part of why his demon minions are nearly suicidally indifferent to the risks of his orders. As full spirit entities of the nevernever that have to spend energy holding a body of ectoplasm together to stay in the mortal world almost every variety of death on the job is just a novel experience to explore.

My assumption is that of our own people only the spirits of various things DP described would actually benefit, anything with a mortal life under the wheel would probably die permanently if it got summoned and bit it away from Molly.

Though it's an interesting question if as her worshippers they'd get "damned" to her hell to be reincarnated as normal as a sort of loophole. Possibly one with a cost to them because they leave something behind unlike proper spirits.

I'd prefer to stick to our demons and trained cadres of war animals for the most part as a result.

Summon dinosaur allies I-XI is a perfectly scary new spell for the council, even discounting all the more exotic options and potential weapons a trained critter could be armed with.

Behemoth Walkers with possessed auto cannons would be a fun surprise to pull during an assault to name one example.

Yog said:

So, it occurs to me that while we don't know the Path of Summoning yet, Harry does. Depending on how much he trusts us and the whole situation, he has just gotten a very large boost in power. Even if by the Rules of White God he has to pay equal services, he could most likely exchange "training Molly in the Paths of Sorcery and performing services for her in the real world" in exchange for aid. And being able to call forth a SWAT team of power armored magical dragon-men is a strong argument.

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I'm not aware of any metaphysical law saying that deals you make with Nevernever creatures you summon have to be fair.

fictionfan said:

After watching a bunch of videos on North Korea I am convinced that if we to do anything with NK China will intervene in any way they can which complicates the issues massively considering the Jade Court.

Also if an Infernal wants to destroy the world they don't have to work all that hard.

I know that the limiting factor is needing to sacrifice a minimum of 10 humans*. It's easy to say that saving the people of NK is a good and that it's impossible to do without killing at least 10 people that totally deserve it. In which case waste not want not.

Trying to establish somewhere else means that we have to go out of our way to find people to sacrifice which isn't as morally clear cut.

*Or a single supernatural who isn't a COD like a wizard. However unlike humans who can be absolutely terrible without registering as a COD evil supernaturals seem to register very quickly.

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Imma note the jade court is not allied with china or anything they don't even call it china lol.

BronzeTongue said:

Brokering a deal with the white council of this nature might be worthwhile as well.

Our people deserve to be paid for their work, so not all of it would be to our direct profit exactly, but if the council can be convinced to trust us then we could act as a direct counter to the issue of the red court's summoned demons/outsiders.

If they specifically summon our devils and not mortals it's even low risk. Most DF entities of that type don't die if you kill them in the mortal world, they get kicked back home. You've got to do something special or follow them home to make sure they stay that way.

This all comes up with Binder and his goons, because it's part of why his demon minions are nearly suicidally indifferent to the risks of his orders. As full spirit entities of the nevernever that have to spend energy holding a body of ectoplasm together to stay in the mortal world almost every variety of death on the job is just a novel experience to explore.

My assumption is that of our own people only the spirits of various things DP described would actually benefit, anything with a mortal life under the wheel would probably die permanently if it got summoned and bit it away from Molly.

Though it's an interesting question if as her worshippers they'd get "damned" to her hell to be reincarnated as normal as a sort of loophole. Possibly one with a cost to them because they leave something behind unlike proper spirits.

I'd prefer to stick to our demons and trained cadres of war animals for the most part as a result.

Summon dinosaur allies I-XI is a perfectly scary new spell for the council, even discounting all the more exotic options and potential weapons a trained critter could be armed with.

Behemoth Walkers with possessed auto cannons would be a fun surprise to pull during an assault to name one example.

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I think "if killed they experience a normal turn of the wheel and return to our kingdom after a while" wouldn't be a loophole at all. At least as long as they are our worshippers. Non-humans are (derived from) third circle demons. Humans are trickier, but we have a claim to their souls, and they are (or might be) from Exalted iteration of humanity, and so not subject to White God's jurisdiction.

And yeah, the ability to summon supernatural fighters to help them would be of a big help to White Council.

Ok. I've been thinking, what kind of message do we want to give here?
The way I see it, the message our current speech is going for is: We are a caring god in the Greek sense new to the role but looking forward to learning.

BronzeTongue said:

Brokering a deal with the white council of this nature might be worthwhile as well.

Our people deserve to be paid for their work, so not all of it would be to our direct profit exactly, but if the council can be convinced to trust us then we could act as a direct counter to the issue of the red court's summoned demons/outsiders.

If they specifically summon our devils and not mortals it's even low risk. Most DF entities of that type don't die if you kill them in the mortal world, they get kicked back home. You've got to do something special or follow them home to make sure they stay that way.

This all comes up with Binder and his goons, because it's part of why his demon minions are nearly suicidally indifferent to the risks of his orders. As full spirit entities of the nevernever that have to spend energy holding a body of ectoplasm together to stay in the mortal world almost every variety of death on the job is just a novel experience to explore.

My assumption is that of our own people only the spirits of various things DP described would actually benefit, anything with a mortal life under the wheel would probably die permanently if it got summoned and bit it away from Molly.

Though it's an interesting question if as her worshippers they'd get "damned" to her hell to be reincarnated as normal as a sort of loophole. Possibly one with a cost to them because they leave something behind unlike proper spirits.

I'd prefer to stick to our demons and trained cadres of war animals for the most part as a result.

Summon dinosaur allies I-XI is a perfectly scary new spell for the council, even discounting all the more exotic options and potential weapons a trained critter could be armed with.

Behemoth Walkers with possessed auto cannons would be a fun surprise to pull during an assault to name one example.

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Molly is not sure what would happen if one of her worshipers died somewhere else and since it has never come up in the history of the world she cannot just roll occult for it. The devils would be fine though as long as they are not killed with highly specific and destructive weapons or spells.

Anaja said:

We're an exalt in her place of power. If the laws of physics want a say in things, then they get in line, and they politely ask permission.


Harry has an approach to pain. He appreciates pain. Hell, in Ghost Story he practically has a love letter to pain, and goes on about how it is life. Harry is a masochist.


Proven Guilty shows that demon isn't any sort of technical term. It's just a general thing to call any hostile inhuman thing from beyond. Not from the main reality of Earth, has claws and fangs, and trying to eat my face? Yeah, that's a demon.


Why do you say that?

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Uh there are non demon beings that are both evil and fucky looking which they don't call demons. Phobophages, certain fae, certain monstrous hounds that I can't remember the name of, completely non human ghouls, etc etc.

TheGrape said:

I'm not asking for perfection and honestly for anyone else Mab's record would be great, given how long she's defended reality successfully.

It's just when people start talking about how she's irreplaceable and never takes a loss despite all the proof to the contrary, that I get a little heated. It's less the idea of having to perfectly defend against every Outside incursion and more than you can't use your record of defending against Outside incursions to justify your continued existence when said record isn't demonstrably sufficient to give you carte blanche over your war crimes as Mab and her supporters seem to think it does.

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I don't think anyone believes mab is irreplaceable just that she is in the short term. Because she's not gonna have anyone as competent replacing her and we sure as fuck don't want her role that sounds like hell.

I find it fairly likely mabs gonna die in the final books. Given the final books are probably some level of apocalypse.