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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
Possible, yes.
But the only demonstrated example so far in canon that I recall is the construction of Demonreach, which was allegedly constructed in multiple times.

I suspect its neither easy nor risk free.
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The list of beings who could conceivably plan an acasual plan to unleash an Infernal Exaltation and have it working out for them starts with, like, Ebon Dragon (no, it doesn't, because his plans don't work) and ends with Sol Invictus clawing his way out of the grave of ages.
uju32 said:
The Mothers live in a cottage.
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Fairly sure that's what Dresden was able to perceive them living in, but not what was actually happening? It was in deep, deep NeverNever, if I recall correctly, and at least some items were clearly metaphorical.
uju32 said:
Believe the hype.
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Naagloshii are powerful, but you are way overhyping it.
 
I mean the dresdenverse has an inverse correlation between free will and power. I'd say the naagloshii as having enough power to be an issue to small fish with free will in a head to head fight. Those who can match or exceed them have either prior commitments (Bamps and the whole Dracula issue) or don't have reason to conflict with them in the first place.
In exalted terms power wise they're in the realm of Second circle demons without any potence invested in command or social power the majority of the time.
 
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Yeah, it may have taken a nuke to kill one Naagloshii, but one wizard was also enough to drive one off because it didn't think it could win. So it's like saying a nuke could kill a wizard; sure, but so could a hand grenade (an exaggeration to make my point that we don't need that much power to take one out).

Listens-to-Wind sent one fleeing by shapeshifting in Turncoat. Literally, beat the naagloshii like a percussion set with a bear's paws, mountain lion's claws and a fucking turtle's jaw. (And breakdancing to dodge, I guess)

These things are powerful, but not that powerful. Bad enough that we could probably ask Dresden to call for backup from Listens-to-Wind given this is literally his problem. But far from enough to be at a crushing advantage in a fight with Molly.
 
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Yog said:
The list of beings who could conceivably plan an acasual plan to unleash an Infernal Exaltation and have it working out for them starts with, like, Ebon Dragon (no, it doesn't, because his plans don't work) and ends with Sol Invictus clawing his way out of the grave of ages.
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Lol.
Yog said:
Fairly sure that's what Dresden was able to perceive them living in, but not what was actually happening? It was in deep, deep NeverNever, if I recall correctly, and at least some items were clearly metaphorical.
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Its been a while since I read the entirety of Summer Knight, but I have read the relevant scenes in Cold Days.
And no, apparently thats all literal. Some may have higher truths, but apparently while Mab lives in a castle with attendants and courtiers, the Mothers live in a cottage by choice.

After all, its all but confirmed that the Blackstaff, the actual physical item, is Mother Winter's missing walking stick.
So yeah.
Yog said:
Naagloshii are powerful, but you are way overhyping it.
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I dont think so.
The rule of thumb in the Dresden Files with regards to non-mortal powers has always been that power comes with restrictions.

The Fallen are bound into Coins and have Sword bearers opposing them.
There is a reason why naagloshii are cursed/restricted to weaken beyond their home territories and can be banished by Native American shaman who know the Blessing Way.

This is essentially the same process we see with Yama Kings, actually.
fictionfan said:
I feel like you are missing the difference between necessary and sufficient.
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Respectfully disagree.

Earth-Destroyer said:
Yeah no if naagloshii where that powerful they would not have allowed some many people to setup shop in the America's.
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Its almost as if the White God making rules about what spirits can and cannot do in the mortal world is an explicit facet of the setting.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Yeah no if naagloshii where that powerful they would not have allowed some many people to setup shop in the America's.
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This assumes a lot of things about what the Naagoloshi care about, where their weak spots are, and what the opposition around them is like.

It wouldn't particularly surprise me if the Naagoloshi encouraged colonization because it hurt people they had a long and bitter history with. People who have special type advantage magic against them.

Naagoloshi are pretty swole, but being a huge pain to fight doesn't mean people couldn't or wouldn't oppose them and make it stick. Plenty of other people can punch up or phone home for stronger backers if they need to.
 
TheGrape said:
Yeah, it may have taken a nuke to kill one Naagloshii, but one wizard was also enough to drive one off because it didn't think it could win. So it's like saying a nuke could kill a wizard; sure, but so could a hand grenade (an exaggeration to make my point that we don't need that much power to take one out).

Listens-to-Wind sent one fleeing by shapeshifting in Turncoat. Literally, beat the naagloshii like a percussion set with a bear's paws, mountain lion's claws and a fucking turtle's jaw. (And breakdancing to dodge, I guess)

These things are powerful, but not that powerful. Bad enough that we could probably ask Dresden to call for backup from Listens-to-Wind given this is literally his problem. But far from enough to be at a crushing advantage in a fight with Molly.
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Not quite. Word of Jim:
Quote from: Don on June 22, 2011, 07:02:03 PM
According to another thread that I read last night, my hunch about Mr. Ferro hiring Shagnasty appears to be incorrect. There's a WoJ stating that the person/thing/organization that hired him has been talked about, but we haven't yet seen her/him/it/them onstage. The quote didn't provide a date, but it was obviously after TC and before GS.
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Actually, my original statement in this thread has been wildly misinterpreted. :)
Shagnasty and his ilk (I love that word) don't minion for anyone, is what I said, at least not since they stopped minioning for the Holy People.

Now they /do/ trade favors. That can look a lot like minioning, but something like Shagnasty has no use whatsoever for paltry things like money or physical goods or slaves or magical gadgets or tech or human influence. That stuff, it would regard as insulting if it was offered.

The real currency is /favors/. And it had a mission while it was onstage in Turncoat. But honesty, just hurting the people who were trying to protect and aid Morgan was more than enough motivation for it to be there.

See, the flipside to the major currency being favors is that there is also an enormous trade in /grudges/. And something like the naagloshii doesn't just carry a grudge. It cherishes it, feeds it before it cares for its own progeny, and breeds it with other grudges to produce newer, stronger, more deeply malicious grudglings.

Yes, Shaggy was there at the behest of someone else. But mostly Shaggy was there because it was an awesome way to torment more-than-merely-mortals who couldn't just smack his ass down like the folks back at home. :) It didn't flee LtW because it was afraid it would lose. It fled because it couldn't easily /win/. That's an important distinction.
Most predators tend to take the sure thing whenever they possibly can. Why gamble on taking a beating when you have infinite time to come back later and kill someone properly, with lots and lots of foreplay? :D
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Subtle but significant difference.
 
Something to keep in mind in regards to Naagoloshi, much like other supernatural beings, be they vampires, fae, wizards, etc., is that they are not created equally. They're going to have different aptitudes, base power (ignoring what they've stolen, which rapidly drains away when they leave their home territory), skills, personalities, etc.

This particular Skinwalker who has been getting into our business could be significantly weaker than Shagnasty, it could be significantly stronger, smarter or dumber, meaner or Machiavellian, and so on.

All things considered, there is a lot of wiggle room for just how dangerous it can be, but that uncertainty is enough that we have to treat it like the potential threat it is, and that threat is on the upper end of the scale, if not at the actual peak.
 
uju32 said:
Not quite. Word of Jim:

Subtle but significant difference.
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Also worth noting that Listen-to-Wind is a Native American wizard dating back to before the French-Indian war. The medicine men of the various native nations explicitly had special magic that let them screw with the Naagoloshi because they broke oaths that you don't break without consequences that they were party to.

Even without that Wizards are at their most dangerous when they have information to work with. Listens-to-Wind almost certainly knew exactly what he was doing and we didn't get an interlude to show us how he set up for the encounter.
 
uju32 said:
Its been a while since I read the entirety of Summer Knight, but I have read the relevant scenes in Cold Days.
And no, apparently thats all literal. Some may have higher truths, but apparently while Mab lives in a castle with attendants and courtiers, the Mothers live in a cottage by choice.

After all, its all but confirmed that the Blackstaff, the actual physical item, is Mother Winter's missing walking stick.
So yeah.
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A reminder that they have clay pots there containing different diseases, and one of them is wormwood, very heavily implies to be from the Bible. There definitely was a different level of existence beyond the curtain of mundanity there.
uju32 said:
I dont think so.
The rule of thumb in the Dresden Files with regards to non-mortal powers has always been that power comes with restrictions.

The Fallen are bound into Coins and have Sword bearers opposing them.
There is a reason why naagloshii are cursed/restricted to weaken beyond their home territories and can be banished by Native American shaman who know the Blessing Way.

This is essentially the same process we see with Yama Kings, actually.
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Yes, and by this reasoning naagloshii are chumps. They have essentially no restrictions in how they can operate. They are not significantly hindered by thresholds. The weakness, at least here, was rules as "they don't get access to essentially unlimited energy of their native dragon nests", and the Native American thing is because naagloshii are still bound by some ancient pacts. They are free to kill anyone they want, can lie, don't fear iron, and basically have free reign in what to do as far as we know.

Also, a reminder that a large part of a naagloshii's power is stolen mortal power.
uju32 said:
Subtle but significant difference.
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The last line about predators undermines the argument. Because predators are cowards out of necessity - if they get damaged, they won't be able to hunt.
 
[X] No, you do not want to be tangled in the doings of the White Court

I think we have enough info, and should quit while we seem to be ahead. I don't think spending more time with Lara is going to be great for us, mentally speaking.
 
Yog said:
A reminder that they have clay pots there containing different diseases, and one of them is wormwood, very heavily implies to be from the Bible. There definitely was a different level of existence beyond the curtain of mundanity there.
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Wormwood, from the Bible, may well be an actual physical thing.
We have no idea how it works in the Dresdenverse.

Yog said:
Yes, and by this reasoning naagloshii are chumps. They have essentially no restrictions in how they can operate. They are not significantly hindered by thresholds. The weakness, at least here, was rules as "they don't get access to essentially unlimited energy of their native dragon nests", and the Native American thing is because naagloshii are still bound by some ancient pacts. They are free to kill anyone they want, can lie, don't fear iron, and basically have free reign in what to do as far as we know.

Also, a reminder that a large part of a naagloshii's power is stolen mortal power.
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We have never seen them cross a human threshold in canon, and if they could cross a threshold, that would imply that they are still a mortal threat after leaving a lot of their power outside the house.


They aren't free to do whatever.
The fact that you dont know what their restrictions are doesnt mean they dont exist.
They explicitly weaken the longer they stay away from their territory; we dont know how it works, could be a curse.


There is zero evidence that they draw power from dragons nests, and actual evidence that they dont; Word of Dresden from observation is that they count as their own self-contained leyline, and we see Shagnasty use a magic circle as a defense, which would have cut it off from external power.


We dont know how their killing mortal practitioners mechanic works for them.
It could be that mortal power adds to their own.
It could also be that each kill unlocks more of their own power that they aren't allowed to use otherwise.

We have no canon idea.
Yog said:
The last line about predators undermines the argument. Because predators are cowards out of necessity - if they get damaged, they won't be able to hunt.
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Predators are lazy.
Predators can and do get into serious fights and risk injury over things that matter to them.
They dont do so over stuff that isn't as important.

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I mean, naaagloshii have intellectus for hurting people. Intellectus.
The kind of thing you only see on angels, the Mothers and high-tier spirits like Demonreach.

Our most setting-breaking ability being the Crown, and naagloshii have an apparently free ability along the same lines, just specialized to how to hurt a person the most. Thats why Shagnasty kidnapped Thomas in canon, because it would hurt Dresden, even though it didn't know why it would hurt Dresden.

And Im being told Im overhyping them.
If we weren't a Solaroid, I'd be bloody terrified for Molly's life. Im still worried about the collateral potential.
 
BronzeTongue said:
It wouldn't particularly surprise me if the Naagoloshi encouraged colonization because it hurt people they had a long and bitter history with. People who have special type advantage magic against them.
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They did not have to do a single thing save just anybody that know how to fight them and still even with something on the order of 99% of the mortal population dead to disease they still failed.
 
uju32 said:
I mean, naaagloshii have intellectus for hurting people. Intellectus.
The kind of thing you only see on angels, the Mothers and high-tier spirits like Demonreach.

Our most setting-breaking ability being the Crown, and naagloshii have an apparently free ability along the same lines, just specialized to how to hurt a person the most. Thats why Shagnasty kidnapped Thomas in canon, because it would hurt Dresden, even though it didn't know why it would hurt Dresden.

And Im being told Im overhyping them.
If we weren't a Solaroid, I'd be bloody terrified for Molly's life. Im still worried about the collateral potential.
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Since you guys did roll pretty decently to learn more about naaagloshii I will say this much, they do not just seem to eat people for power but also for knowledge, insight into their victims, magical and mundane which they can later put to use.
 
uju32 said:
They aren't free to do whatever.
The fact that you dont know what their restrictions are doesnt mean they dont exist.
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While absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, you can't argue that they have restrictions if we never saw any.
uju32 said:
They explicitly weaken the longer they stay away from their territory; we dont know how it works, could be a curse.


There is zero evidence that they draw power from dragons nests, and actual evidence that they dont; Word of Dresden from observation is that they count as their own self-contained leyline, and we see Shagnasty use a magic circle as a defense, which would have cut it off from external power.
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At least in this quest we know the following:

Regarding weakening and drawing on power:
DragonParadox said:
As far as you know they do not lose power, they just become more and more obvious, as they draw power from land that is strangte to them. They gain all the knowledge of mages they eat and pretty much all of them have eaten a wizard who knows how to tap a ley line.
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Regarding drawing on power, its own native power and being a leyline:
DragonParadox said:
When it is outside its home territory and as long as it is not purposefully trying to go dark yes. Inside its territory it can just draw on the land freely and if it goes dark it does not have access to magic beyond its native shape-shifting, but it also cannot be tracked by anything short of the Sight.
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Inside its territory it can draw on the power of the land freely. That's pretty much tapping leylines / bonding to Dragon Nests, though I'll agree that this isn't spelled out. And its own native power when it isn't drawing on the land and trying to be stealthy is shapeshifting.

uju32 said:
We dont know how their killing mortal practitioners mechanic works for them.
It could be that mortal power adds to their own.
It could also be that each kill unlocks more of their own power that they aren't allowed to use otherwise.
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In this quest they seem to steal power, though that's Molly's knowledge:
DragonParadox said:
As far as Molly knows naagloshii steal the power of those they devour, so if one were to devour a human wizard skilled in mind magic they would inherit some part of that ability. On the other hand they might not even need that as their un-Fallen role was that of teachers they might be quite skilled in molding a society as a matter of long experience
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uju32 said:
I mean, naaagloshii have intellectus for hurting people. Intellectus.
The kind of thing you only see on angels, the Mothers and high-tier spirits like Demonreach.
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And valkyiries. Don't forget valkyiries, who have, depending on interpretation, a more broad one.


Also, on the subject of divinity:
DragonParadox said:
'God' in the broad sense is not a very good way to measure the power or authority of something because that word was used by humans to describe anything they worship, from the spirit of a blade of grass all the way to the White God. In the broad sense Bob would be a god is someone decided to worship him for his wisdom. Not saying that to weigh in on the Nagloshi vs valkyirie conversation, just trying to clarify terms, or as the case may be pointing out how unclear they really are.
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We should give Bob cult background when we can. Or upgrade him to the god of internet / knowledge in the broad sense. I mean, as the Empress Ascendant to the Throne of Heaven, it is our sacred duty to establish a proper celestial bureaucracy. Promoting friendly and loyal spirits / beings up the hierarchy just makes sense.

Hmm... Would such an upgrade be a matter of wonder forging (making a god with an existing one as the basis), or VEE?
 
Yog said:
A reminder that they have clay pots there containing different diseases, and one of them is wormwood, very heavily implies to be from the Bible. There definitely was a different level of existence beyond the curtain of mundanity there.

Yes, and by this reasoning naagloshii are chumps. They have essentially no restrictions in how they can operate. They are not significantly hindered by thresholds. The weakness, at least here, was rules as "they don't get access to essentially unlimited energy of their native dragon nests", and the Native American thing is because naagloshii are still bound by some ancient pacts. They are free to kill anyone they want, can lie, don't fear iron, and basically have free reign in what to do as far as we know.

Also, a reminder that a large part of a naagloshii's power is stolen mortal power.

The last line about predators undermines the argument. Because predators are cowards out of necessity - if they get damaged, they won't be able to hunt.
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having vast mystical meaning and power and such doesn't exactly mean its not a cottage it just means its a cottage with some of the answers to the universe.
 
DragonParadox said:
Since you guys did roll pretty decently to learn more about naaagloshii I will say this much, they do not just seem to eat people for power but also for knowledge, insight into their victims, magical and mundane which they can later put to use.
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If molly had to guess would she think if they tried to eat us they'd get some power or Incongestion?
 
firefrog600 said:
If molly had to guess would she think if they tried to eat us they'd get some power or Incongestion?
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It would not be able to eat the Exaltation that much is clear. Odds are good it would have the sense not to try, contending itself with just the mortal bits, but if it did and somehow managed to envelop it the spirit would explode because it just tried to eat an energy field considerably larger than its head
 
DragonParadox said:
It would not be able to eat the Exaltation that much is clear. Odds are good it would have the sense not to try, contending itself with just the mortal bits, but if it did and somehow managed to envelop it the spirit would explode because it just tried to eat an energy field considerably larger than its head
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wonder if they know this my guess is probably. I knew they couldn't eat the exaltation just curious what would happen lol.

Theoretically could we blow them up by throwing a severed hand of ours into their mouth? :p
 
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