Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

BoredMan · May 7, 2023

Yog said:
In talk with Mab, Perception is primarily a "defensive" ability used to spot tricks she tries to play on us. Useful, yes, but we already have a) Usum, b ) All Things Betray for this.

I was moreso speaking of our Perception in general not really for Mab. There have been a number of instances where it wouldv'e helped to have better Perception. With the shapeshifting naagloshii for example we'll prob find a lot of use in having more of it.

Yog said:
On the other hand, Expression is an offensive social ability. It's "your ability to get your point across clearly, whether through conversation, poetry, or even in 140 characters or fewer. Characters with high Expression can phrase their opinions or beliefs in a manner that cannot be ignored (even if their opinions are misinformed or worthless). They might also be talented actors, skilled at conveying moods or communicating emotion with every gesture. "

Empathy just seems more viable here. Lets be real we likely aren't going to be able to outtalk or assert ourselves over Mab in speech combat reguardless of Expression right now. The ability to get a vibe on what she's thinking just seems more actionable immediately during and after the meeting.
Mab is important but I feel like its a complete waste to monofocus and not invest in anything else that will come after with our xp. Like the naagloshii or the Nemesis situation.
[X] Uju32

Duquette7 · May 7, 2023

[X] Plan Secret Agent Molly

Voting for this for now, because it at least begins to patch the long term holes in our build, but I would rather drop the perception dot for an extra dot of subterfuge, plus an extra dot of either awarness, or alertness.

uju32 · May 7, 2023

DragonParadox said:
15 XP total, though you would be able to train up to half of it as normal

15 xp is the same cost as a Favored 5 dot charm
.....
...
Okay then.

Getting a 7-8xp discount on this will require 7+AP spent on Training, and that's competing with other things that need training.
I think we can safely assume that Molly is NOT buying this anytime soon.
Certainly not before paying for her Kingdom charm.

Lydia might though; if we assume she did the Training with her father in her head over the next couple months, she should be able to pay 7-8xp for this around January.
She does need to buy Righteous Lion Defense first.

Yzarc said:
Citation for this please?

Because I am not sure on this part.

I am not home, so I can't pull up all my references.
Including the ones here.

So here is Word of Jim on the Sight, Soulgaze and how it works

3rd Sight and Soulgazes

BigMama:

Wizards base a great deal of their perceptions of people on the soul gaze. In theory, when you look into another being you see into the core of them– their true nature. But it seems to me from the evidence we have so far that this is not always totally accurate. When Harry gazed into Molly, he saw numerous potential outcomes, but judged that she was at the core worthy of his help and support. We know he soul gazed Ebeneezer, and yet he was surprised to find out he was Blackstaff. If the soul gaze is so open to interpretation, can it actually cause a wizard to believe an untruth? Is a soul gaze a truly accurate way to determine the nature of a person?

Jim:

What it shows you is /true/. But it isn't necessarily /all/.

For instance, a 'gaze could show you that a man was self-disciplined, sober, highly organized, dedicated to his principles, and that he loved dogs, and all of that would be /true/. But it /doesn't/ tell you /everything/ about Adolf Hitler.

Granted, a soulgaze of Hitler would probably have given off a big vibe of either "crazy" or "ruthless" too. They tend to give you a pretty good core sample of the individual in question. However, every wizard gets things a little bit differently than any other, in terms of how the soulgaze is perceived. Not every wizard sees things in symbols and allegory, the way Harry does. There's a whole spectrum of different "filters," I suppose, of how the basic natures of others are perceived.

As for misinterpreting what they perceive, or putting their own preconceptions on their interpretations? Please. EVERYONE does that, wizard or not. It's part of being human.

Jim

Miss Demeanor:

The third sight reveals truths about people and places that aren't evident to the naked eye. Are the specific images that are seen intrinsic to the subject, or is there a measure of personal metaphor and interpretation on the part of the viewer? In other words… Let's say that Wizard A grew up in America, and may consider the embodiment of evil to be a devil-like figure. Wizard B is from India, and might instead associate evil with a rakshasa. They each view a subject with their third sight. The subject is a vile and malicious person. Would this be revealed to them both in the same way, or would what each one sees be influenced by his own cultural background?

Jim:

Not only would the Western-raised wizard and Eastern-raised wizard perceive things according to the cultural biases and subjective experiences, they might not even perceive them with the same /senses/.

The Third Sight is different for everyone, subjective, and inherently slanted towards ones own experiences and background. So while two wizards might look on some totally-gone, bloodthirsty warlock and see a bloodthirsty warlock, they might see it in very different ways.

Maybe Harry looks on him and sees some Hannibal-Lectery figure crouched on the floor grinning and soaked in blood. But maybe Ancient Mai looks on him and sees a bare, twisted white tree in the center of an unbroken field of white snow, representative of the individual's loss of spirit and humanity. And maybe Rodriguez looks at him and hears some kind of hideous music that accompanies the individual and makes the hair on the back of Carlos' neck stand up. Maybe Klaus the Toymaker looks at them and sees that his head is covered in cracks and flaws, and that underneath the parts where the flesh looks chipped away, something rotten and horrible is underneath. Maybe Listens-to-Wind looks on the warlock and smells something rotted and vile.

It's way different for each wizard, and it's why even though soulgazes and third sight can be used as evidence in, for example, warlock trials, there is also room for argument and interpretation–that's how Ebenezar defended Dresden, for example. He claimed that he Saw more than just "murdering warlock."

Plus, it isn't flawless. I mean, if a wizard looks at someone who has just suffered some kind of horrible physical or emotional injury, he gets a much different picture of that person than if he sees them a week sooner, or a year later. If a wizard looks on someone who is in a towering rage at the moment, it's going to have an effect on what is Seen. Maybe not an enormous effect, true, but at times even a little bit of difference in shading can change the overall picture. Oh, plus if the /Wizard/ is in a radically altered state of mind, it can shade things differently, too.

Ultimately, the Sight is something that is best relied upon for making one's own decisions, for supporting one's intuitions and observations–as long as one remembers that while it is always true, it isn't always completely correct. Circumstance can, at tmes, effect what is Seen.

Jim

The Sight is explicitly subjective according to Butcher; it shows truth, not fact. And truth is not absolute, and differs depending on the wizard. Thats why when Dresden was on trial for killing DuMorne, several different wizards could look at the same accused warlock in the same courtroom and argue differently in good faith based on what they saw.

Charms OTOH are supposed to be a lot more absolute.

PS
I mean, its worth recalling that canonically Mab didn't notice that the Leanansidhe was Nfested until Nfested Lea attempted to coup/overthrow her. And that she didn't realize that the Nfestation had been passed on to Maeve for several years.

Thats why Mab was able and willing to talk to Dresden in Dead Beat, but by the time of Small Favor she was so furious she only talked through a member of her entourage because if she used her own voice, she would damage or kill the people she was trying to hold a conversation with.

Artemis1992 · May 7, 2023

[X] Plan Secret Agent Molly

Klaus Wulfenback · May 7, 2023

[X] Plan Social Awareness
[X] Plan Social Expression

DragonParadox · May 7, 2023

uju32 said:
15 xp is the same cost as a Favored 5 dot charm
.....
...
Okay then.

Getting a 7-8xp discount on this will require 7+AP spent on Training, and that's competing with other things that need training.
I think we can safely assume that Molly is NOT buying this anytime soon.
Certainly not before paying for her Kingdom charm.

Lydia might though; if we assume she did the Training with her father in her head over the next couple months, she should be able to pay 7-8xp for this around January.
She does need to buy Righteous Lion Defense first.

I am not home, so I can't pull up all my references.
Including the ones here.

So here is Word of Jim on the Sight, Soulgaze and how it works

3rd Sight and Soulgazes
BigMama:

Jim:

Miss Demeanor:

Jim:

The Sight is explicitly subjective according to Butcher; it shows truth, not fact. And truth is not absolute, and differs depending on the wizard. Thats why when Dresden was on trial for killing DuMorne, several different wizards could look at the same accused warlock in the same courtroom and argue differently in good faith based on what they saw.

Charms OTOH are supposed to be a lot more absolute.

PS
I mean, its worth recalling that canonically Mab didn't notice that the Leanansidhe was Nfested until Nfested Lea attempted to coup/overthrow her. And that she didn't realize that the Nfestation had been passed on to Maeve for several years.

Thats why Mab was able and willing to talk to Dresden in Dead Beat, but by the time of Small Favor she was so furious she only talked through a member of her entourage because if she used her own voice, she would damage or kill the people she was talking to.

How the Sight interacts with Outsiders is a complicated subject... that I almost wrote in here before I remembered spoilers are a thing. (

). Sufice to say it is theoretically possible for a wizard to spot Nemesis, it is just not very likely becase the damn thing is designed to hide from among other things the Sight.

Yzarc · May 7, 2023

DragonParadox said:
How the Sight interacts with Outsiders is a complicated subject... that I almost wrote in here before I remembered spoilers are a thing. ( ). Sufice to say it is theoretically possible for a wizard to spot Nemesis, it is just not very likely becase the damn thing is designed to hide from among other things the Sight.

Now I am convinced to get Hellscry.

Cavalar · May 7, 2023

[X]Plan Inquisitor

uju32 · May 7, 2023

Yog said:
Perception is an Attribute which costs 4 xp* current dots = 8 XP to raise. Raising perception by one point increases our dice pool at a given task by, at most, 2 points. In talk with Mab, Perception is primarily a "defensive" ability used to spot tricks she tries to play on us. Useful, yes, but we already have a) Usum, b ) All Things Betray for this.

On the other hand, Expression is an offensive social ability. It's "your ability to get your point across clearly, whether through conversation, poetry, or even in 140 characters or fewer. Characters with high Expression can phrase their opinions or beliefs in a manner that cannot be ignored (even if their opinions are misinformed or worthless). They might also be talented actors, skilled at conveying moods or communicating emotion with every gesture. "

There are, in my mind, two viable strategies for dealing with Mab in the coming meeting:
1) Weather her attempts to catch us in her nets, and leave the meeting with as few obligations as possible, ideally while also removing "Enemy: Winter" 1 dot disadvantage
2) Actually attempt to negotiate, possibly offering services, or crafted items in exchange for payment / alliance.

Expression is needed for the second version - if we are to actually dive in and try to get something. Then we'll need it in order to convey our desires and positions when actively negotiating. If we just want to get this over with while avoiding danger, we don't need it (and should take a combat charm instead, in my opinion).

1)Perception governs a whole bunch of sensing rolls.

Perception + Awareness = passive supernatural detection
Perception + Alertness = passive mundane detection
Perception + Investigation = active mundane search
Perception + Occult = active supernatural study/search
Perception + Empathy = social perception

Its more cost efficient right now to spend 8xp on 1 dot of Perception, which increases Alertness, Awareness, Investigation and Occult, than to attempt to buy dots in each ability individually.

2)Expression is not a Key ability.
1s subtract successes with Expression rolls; for example, if we roll 14 dice at DC7 and get 5x rolls above 7, and 2 rolls of 1, we have a net of 3 sux if we had rolled Expression, but 5 sux if we rolled Empathy.

Furthermore, we can botch with Expression, when we can't botch with Empathy or Etiquette.
Under no circumstances will we knowingly, willingly contest Mab in Expression, or attempt to build an offensive social strategy around Expression.

3)Empathy and Etiquette are Key abilities for Molly. Expression is not a Key Ability for her.
We engage Mab with Empathy and Etiquette, where we won't botch, instead of Expression, which can botch, and which will roll low if we have a lot of 1s.

Play to our strengths.

BronzeTongue said:
I still think essence dissecting stare is a better starting point, since we've had charms lean more on their fluff than their system text here and EDS has some significant fluff that the system text barely touches on.

If it works as described it should be something closer to wizard's sight than anything else, even if it doesn't come with the same special insight into people specifically.

It's also free to use unless we want to stare directly into other planes of existence, so it doesn't interfere with our essence economy to spam it all the time.

I also don't see anything in the text of the chant about detecting possession, unless it's obvious in their emotional state which isn't always going to be the case.

1)Essence Dissecting Stare does not do the same thing.
Its optimized for looking at environments, not people.
We actually need both.

2)Its there in the V20 Aura table we are supposed to reference.
Its explicitly supposed to be able to notice things like Domination by looking at the persons Aura.
I can't provide a quote now, because Im not home.

Yzarc · May 7, 2023

I was convinced to get Hellscry specifically because it 100% detects Nemesis, which sight does not.

Everything else is gravy on top.

OctarineShrike · May 7, 2023

[x]Plan Inquisitor

Blockamus · May 7, 2023

[X]Plan Inquisitor

Me no like botch =(

Qazplm · May 7, 2023

[X]Plan Inquisitor

Earth-Destroyer · May 7, 2023

By a strict reading of the rule ls Molly would be unable to even use empathy on Mab. It requires you mostly agree with the other person to utilize. Why did pick that when expression works on anybody without limitations.

Duquette7 · May 7, 2023

I'm almost sold on Hellscry, with just one lingering question, how do we possibly get away with using it on the Winter Lady?

Lets suppose, given the information we just got from Bob, that we decide to spend the next few days investigating Mab's children, I'll even spot the thread a Crown focus/question combo that provides enough of a justification to summon the Winter Lady right before we are to meet Mab, which could be misconstrued as a breech of etiquette/protocol. What then?

Unlike our Crown, Hellscrys usage is obvious, painfully so, so how would that stunt work? Can anyone articulate a justification for staring at the Winter Lady with the freaky glowing eyeball of fire that forms on our head? Because I am coming up blank.

I agree we want the charm, it's amazing to have given the setting, and we probably want it soon so we have it on tap when it becomes situationaly useful, but it sounds more like something we want two or more arcs from now, rather then right here, right now.

If we try to shoehorn this into the meeting prep it has the chance to go horrifically badly, if for no other reason then the fact that He Who Walks Beside is one of the few entities in the setting I'd bet on knowing exactly what we were doing/seeing with our freaky fire eye, he might recognize the charm, and what then?

Yzarc · May 7, 2023

Duquette7 said:
Unlike our Crown, Hellscrys usage is obvious, painfully so

How did you come to this conclusion? Nothing about Hellscry says it will be obvious. No more than read intent would be.

HHellsccry Chakkra (••)
Opening her inner eye and attuning it to spiritual desolation, the Infernal gains the ability to detect
potential servants or rivals, and to weigh the souls of
those she meets.
System: Reflexively spend 1 Essence. For the rest
of the scene, the Infernal becomes aware when she
stands in the presence of any creature of darkness,
though she doesn't inherently know what sort of supernatural being any given individual may be. Furthermore, by concentrating on a specific individual for a
few moments and making a successful Perception +
Occult roll against difficulty 6, she can behold the subtleties of their anima and learn their current emotional
state, as well as some clues about their nature. If you
wish to embellish this with aura colors and the like, a
chart can be found on page 136 of V20.

BronzeTongue · May 7, 2023

Yzarc said:
How did you come to this conclusion? Nothing about Hellscry says it will be obvious. No more than read intent would be.

We were warned not to use the crown in front of Mab, so it's possible some abilities like this are detectable from the outside.

Its not like the exalted are know for being subtle by default, even if you can build for stealth if you want to.

Hellscry isn't an ideal tool for Maeve though.

We have four days if we want to use that situation with Mab and no reason to even know nemesis exists to want to check even if we had access to Maeve.

A crown question phrased in a more general way that clues us into the problem would fit better IC.

Mab will be curious about how we know, but we don't need to offer an explanation. With dedicated observation she can detect it herself, it's how she found and saved Leanesidhe.

If we make the claim and the offer basic due diligence obligates her to verify both.

As to how to phrase that question in a natural way, I'm thinking we have Molly fish for problems to try to sell solutions to.

Things like "what is the greatest form of assistance that Maeve needs to fill her role properly?" Or something.

uju32 said:
1)Essence Dissecting Stare does not do the same thing.
Its optimized for looking at environments, not people.
We actually need both.

2)Its there in the V20 Aura table we are supposed to reference.
Its explicitly supposed to be able to notice things like Domination by looking at the persons Aura.
I can't provide a quote now, because Im not home.

1) Yes , but it's still useable information on a regular basis that doesn't cost essence to use.

2) Detecting domination isn't the same as detecting nemesis. Is there a ruling supporting that it's 100% effective at this?

Azais · May 7, 2023

BronzeTongue said:
2) Detecting domination isn't the same as detecting nemesis. Is there a ruling supporting that it's 100% effective at this?

Since we detect that someone is dominated, can't we just ask a question about who did it to our crown? And that's how we found out about Nemesis.

(Or rather, the story of who controlled this person, so we know how dangerous Nemesis is)

BronzeTongue · May 7, 2023

Azais said:
Since we detect that someone is dominated, can't we just ask a question about who did it to our crown? And that's how we found out about Nemesis.

(Or rather, the story of who controlled this person, so we know how dangerous Nemesis is)

The point I'm making is that Domination is the name of a specific WoD vampire ability, not a general condition, and it isn't intrinsically subtle. It can be detected by a number of powers. Nemesis is specifically very hard to detect, that's the whole point of it.

Being able to see a roughly similar but lower quality effect in the same category isn't the same as being able to implicitly pierce the defenses of higher tier stuff specced into being hard to find.

Duquette7 · May 7, 2023

Yzarc said:
How did you come to this conclusion? Nothing about Hellscry says it will be obvious. No more than read intent would be.

I'm sorry if I've made a mistake, I don't have the infernal supplement, I googled the charm and this was the version of it I found.

Hellscry Chakra

Cost: 2m 1wp; Type: Full Action
Duration: One Scene
Keywords: Obvious
Mins: Essence 1
Prerequisites: Demonic Primacy of Essence
The Malefactor opens her caste mark as a third eye upon his brow. This spiritual organ perceives the flow of hierarchy.

Given the that it's Keyword: Obvious, and the fluff description, I thought activating it would be a visible, like the eyes that open when a Fallen speaks, but I've only ever played Exalted on forums like this, so I'm not surprised if my understanding of the rules leaves something to be desired.

Please forgive my error.

Earth-Destroyer · May 7, 2023

Given that Nemesis generally works by altering the person detecting it it sells unlikely. A fey cannot lie for example, but those altered by Nemesis can, therefore they are no longer fey.

bengalqueen · May 7, 2023

So, what are the currently leading plans and the differences between them, if someone could pull that together and post it? Trying to figure out what to vote for.

Yog · May 7, 2023

uju32 said:
We have Subterfuge 3, AND it's a Key Ability, meaning 1s don't count.
Adding 2 dice for 7xp doesn't seem like the best use of XP right now.
IMO.

It's effectively 4 dice, because excellency, and it's more important to be able to prevent Mab from reading us, than it is to be able to read Mab. We have at least two secrets which Mab will kill us over right there at the meeting, guest rights and all else be damned: our crown, and now the secret Bob told us. Mab will be employing the full suit of "read people" abilities. We need to be able to counter those. Thus subterfuge. It's important. Because Mab also has a say in the talk. She's not a passive obstacle to be investigated at our leisure. She's going to be investigating us in turn. I am shocked to say this to you, but you are underestimating her, and not thinking about her as an active opposition here.

I, however, see that Expression (which is what we should be rolling for making arguments) is not going to win. So, a compromise option

[X]Plan Attack and Defense
-[X]Molly: 19xp
--[X]Empathy 5: 4xp
--[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
--[X]Subterfuge 5: 7 XP
-[X]Lydia: 11xp
--[X]Hunters Bolt: 6xp
--[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
--[X] Occult 2: 2xp

So, by dropping Perception 3 (which is more about social offense than defense), we get to get Subterfure 5, which should prevent Mab from reading us like an open book. This frees one additional XP point, which can then be spent on improving Lydia's Occult. Alternatively, if people don't think occult is important (my reasoning is collective rituals), we could buy a 2 dot alchemical recipe, or improve our academics to 2 points, or buy Lydia a second dot in Awareness. I am open on this one, and would like feedback (probably in the morning though).

OctarineShrike · May 7, 2023

[X]Plan Attack and Defense
-[X]Molly: 19xp
--[X]Empathy 5: 4xp
--[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
--[X]Subterfuge 5: 7 XP
-[X]Lydia: 11xp
--[X]Hunters Bolt: 6xp
--[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
--[X] Occult 2: 2xp

Yog · May 7, 2023

OctarineShrike said:
[X]Plan Attack and Defense
-[X]Molly: 20xp
--[X]Empathy 5: 4xp
--[X]Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
--[X]Subterfuge 5: 7 XP
-[X]Lydia: 11xp
--[X]Hunters Bolt: 6xp
--[X]Ox-Body: 3xp
--[X] Occult 2: 2xp

Just one very small thing, it's 19xp for Molly. I corrected this in my vote, please correct in yours. The vote itself hasn't changed.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority

I am Fire, and I am Rain

3rd Sight and Soulgazes

3rd Sight and Soulgazes

The Spark of Madness

The Spark of Madness

Avatar of Mandos

I am Fire, and I am Rain

The Spark of Madness

I am Fire, and I am Rain

Avatar of Mandos