Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

2) Rooms you've been in

You forgot the word that makes it truly reach terrifying levels of potential paranoia: Once, it's rooms you've been in once, meaning that if she know where you've been, she can get more easily and there's nothing you can do about it.

Though Gard fortunately probably doesn't know that fact.

And after sleeping on it, I find the arguments about our responsibility for their future actions pretty specious.
If we followed that principle, we would be obliged to kill everyone we fought or we'd be responsible for their future actions.
And a lot of people who we havent fought.

Yeah, if you're responsible for anything bad a person does after you didn't kill them, better start preparing ways to destroy the planet, otherwise you are responsible for an infinite amount of bad things, instead of just the finished number if everything is dead.

3)I lean on Intimacies because they matter.
It represents a major change for Molly to go from not swearing in front of her father to killing prisoners in cold blood in front of him.
And it would be significantly out of character for either Harry or Michael to let her.

It is important to remind people frequently that we are indeed playing Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael Carpenter, strong proponent to redemption, and are right in front of him right now.

We are not a random murderhobo, and *always chaotic evil* has been a subject of controversy in D&D since its inception for a reason.
 
One helicopter does not control of the entire government make. You guys might want to look back to the agents of the Library you actually met in the quest as well. Molly is not working entirely blind from an IC perspective here.
This?
Murphy looked up at me as she settled down to hold the child. The girl murmured a sleepy complaint, and Murphy rocked her gently to soothe her back to sleep. "Wow. You were really out of it. You didn't see the helicopter?"
I raked through my memories of the night. "Um. No."
"After . . ." She glanced at me and then away. "After," she said more firmly, "Thomas found a landline and made a call. And a navy helicopter landed right out there on the lawn less than an hour later. Lifted him, Molly, and Mouse right out."
"Mouse?"
Murphy snorted gently. "No one was willing to tell him he couldn't go with Molly."
Chitchen Itza is at least a hundred kilometers from the Yucatan coastline.
600 miles from Miami, 800ish miles from Gitmo, more than a thousand from New Orleans.
That came off a naval ship in the Gulf of Mexico.

And Mexico didnt have any naval helicopters that could respond that fast, even assuming that the White Council had that sort of influence in Red Court territory.

You....underestimate what it takes to have a US naval ship send a helicopter into Mexican airspace to evac a civilian.
To invade friendly airspace without permission to pick up people.
We are talking SecDef or SecNav level orders.

That was, in itself, one of the scariest things we actually see onscreen in the Dresdenverse.
And the biggest flex of the White Court I can recall offhand.
 
I wonder if Emma-O will send us a fruit basket after he uses the Akuma we gave to the Library of Congress to subvert the most competent supernatural monitoring apparatus at the U.S. Government's disposal?
 
This?

Chitchen Itza is at least a hundred kilometers from the Yucatan coastline.
600 miles from Miami, 800ish miles from Gitmo, more than a thousand from New Orleans.
That came off a naval ship in the Gulf of Mexico.

And Mexico didnt have any naval helicopters that could respond that fast, even assuming that the White Council had that sort of influence in Red Court territory.

You....underestimate what it takes to have a US naval ship send a helicopter into Mexican airspace to evac a civilian.
To invade friendly airspace without permission to pick up people.
We are talking SecDef or SecNav level orders.

That was, in itself, one of the scariest things we actually see onscreen in the Dresdenverse.
And the biggest flex of the White Court I can recall offhand.

Not saying it wasn't impressive, or proof of penetration, but that is not the same as full control
 
I wonder if Emma-O will send us a fruit basket after he uses the Akuma we gave to the Library of Congress to subvert the most competent supernatural monitoring apparatus at the U.S. Government's disposal?

Funny, it literally cannot happen, if they're competent enough for him to care, they're not getting controlled because they're competent, and if they are incompetent, he's not going to bother, no scenario where he manages and they're actually competent exists.
 
[x]uju32

Honestly don't think there are currently good options which is ironic since I know we're so close to good options after the arcs done or in the coming arcs.
 
Here's a tally:

Adhoc vote count started by Nyarky on Apr 9, 2023 at 9:55 AM, finished with 192 posts and 32 votes.
  • 32

    [X] [AKUMA] Destroy them
    [X] [AKUMA] Reattach their limbs and let them go back to Lady Eiko
    [X] [AKUMA] Reattach their limbs and propose handing them over to the Library of Congress
    -[X] Have Harry whip up some containment circles to hold them in place, and get Monoc security to guard the circles
    -[X] Provide the Library with a short booklet explaining the dangers of akuma and how they can be contained
    -[X] Make it clear that you are handling over prisoners, not test subjects
    [X] [AKUMA] Try to recruit them, it's clear they have been tricked into this
    [X] [AKUMA] Reattach their limbs and propose handing them over to the Library of Congress
    -[X] Have Harry whip up some containment circles to hold them in place, and get Monoc security to guard the circles
    -[X] Provide the Library with a short booklet explaining the dangers of akuma and how they can be contained
    [X] [AKUMA] Force a binding oath upon them
    -[X] Never again shall they do harm through action or inaction to the innocent lest their own power destroys them
  • 24

    [X] [AFTERMATH] You have a suggestion: Write in:
    -[X] Let J come up with some simple story, don't even try to explain the corpse. He was out of town, everything else is the kind of weirdness that nobody really wants to investigate.
    -[X] Offer, but do not suggest, to make the body disappear without trace, if it existing is an issue for Murphy or Butters.
    [X] [AFTERMATH] Don't meddle, you have enough on your plate already
    [X] [AFTERMATH] You have a suggestion: Write in: Creative Omissions
    -[X]J and the girl were apparently kidnapped by parties of unknown allegiance, likely the same involved in the Recluce Murders, who went to the trouble of faking J's death. J and the girl were just the latest set of victims; there are other dead bodies on the site, including at least one elderly woman. The kidnappers got in a gunfight with law enforcement and deputies acting on a tipoff of suspicious activity on the site and were killed. They were apparently meddling with substances that made most of their bodies decompose after their deaths, which may have some connection with the substances used in the apparent poisonings in the Recluce Murders. Investigations are ongoing.
    [X] [AFTERMATH] You have a suggestion: Write in:
    -[X] Let J come up with some simple story, don't even try to explain the corpse. He was out of town, everything else is the kind of weirdness that nobody really wants to investigate.
    [X] [AFTERMATH] You have a suggestion: Write in: -[X] Let J come up with some simple story, don't even try to explain the corpse. He was out of town, everything else is the kind of weirdness that nobody really wants to investigate.
    -[X] Offer, but do not suggest, to make the body disappear without trace, if it existing is an issue for Murphy or Butters.
  • 1

    [X] [AFTERMATH] Don't meddle, you have enough on your plate already


It may be good for those of us that don't want to summarily execute the Akuma's decide on one plan to follow, because there are more of us than those that wants to, but the fact we're divided means they're currently winning.
 
But there is literally no case in which I can see a Molly Carpenter who had the forbearance to go for disabling these people in combat when she could have killed them without anyone objecting, then come back to murder them in cold blood in front of her crush and her father and her allies.

And no situation in which Michael would let her do it without objecting, any more than he would let Harry do it.
1)Its very much a question because Molly made it clear that they can claw back a measure of free will.

2)This is not true. We know recidivism is not inevitable in this setting.
Even in the Dresdenverse, mortals get the opportunity to reject Fallen Angels. And we explicitly know that in Kakuri in this setting, Jizo-Bosatsu is roaming and freeing lesser akuma and similar souls who run into him and accept his offer.
Akuma are not capable of rejecting their masters, denarians theoretically can, the situation is not the same because the Fallen are limited by the White God smacking them if they breech certain rules.

They do not have any capability to be anything other than servants of Emma-O and Molly knows this. The only ways out of the being total monsters is death, being forcefully contained in the hope that Emma-O will eventually be killed or the incredibly unlikely event they encounter Jizo-Bosatsu.

Since they don't really have the capability to be anything other than monsters killing them is the moral option to prevent them inflicting further suffering on others. (I would also argue that destroying their souls to prevent them suffering in Yomi Wan would also be a morally correct action. But that would be OOC for Molly as she is a devout Catholic and thus has views about the sanctity and inviolability of souls, even if Christian theology is provably incorrect in the setting.)
 
It may be good for those of us that don't want to summarily execute the Akuma's decide on one plan to follow, because there are more of us than those that wants to, but the fact we're divided means they're currently winning.
If nothing else, sending them to LoC provides us with a lot more potential intelligence and opportunities. It helps our relationship with Murphy, potentially with LoC too. Akuma containment guide should be worth a library card even.
 
It is important to remind people frequently that we are indeed playing Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael Carpenter, strong proponent to redemption, and are right in front of him right now.
We are also Charity Carpenter's daughter and according to her sometimes a mercy to some is a cruelty to others.
 
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Yeah, if you're responsible for anything bad a person does after you didn't kill them, better start preparing ways to destroy the planet, otherwise you are responsible for an infinite amount of bad things, instead of just the finished number if everything is dead.
That's a fair point. There are lines here, but just because an idea taken to the extreme is wrong doesn't mean every permutation of it is.

Akuma/jades are not human anymore, even though they're still people. Their free will can be taken away permanently, as happens with changlings in canon DF. We can say we know with a high degree of certainty that on release they will kill again, will execute orders from Emma-O and his organization again.

Reform should be the goal of any attempt at justice, but right now our options are limited. The only solutions available to us with a reasonable likelihood of stopping further negative actions are death or imprisonment.

We can stop them specifically, and even if it only helps in the small picture rather than the big one people still live there.

Molly isn't responsible for everything they do once they're out of her power, but she is responsible for the part of the situation she has influence over, and there's a very direct line to be drawn between different actions and their consequences.

It is important to remind people frequently that we are indeed playing Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael Carpenter, strong proponent to redemption, and are right in front of him right now.
This is true and important, but it's also worth noting that the reactions to Micheal and the white god are an important bit of character struggle in the DF.

Harry wrestles with this policy too, and struggles to really accept it as reasonable.

Micheal does because he has faith it will work out in the end, but it's worth noting that everyone he lets walk comes back to hurt people later at least once. To my knowledge we don't see an on screen redemption of someone like a Denarian either. The ones who stop are the ones someone else kills.

The white god believes the ultimate redemption of the humans holding the coins is worth what they do to other people, but his belief isn't necessarily something the people living with those consequences can or should accept.

As a more general reply, I'd say this is why we should use the Library and help them with containment if they need it.

If they can't but are willing to try then we have the opportunity to actually help something like justice for supernatural crimes start happening.
 
That alone isn't enough, it's too much lost utility.
I'm not saying he can't upgrade them or that they aren't dangerous as a group, but clearly there are other reasonable restrictions here because they their behavior doesn't make sense if such restrictions don't exist.
Yama Kings value their position and sovereignty over lost utility, and internal security over everything else.
Its not like its exclusive to them; authoritarian governments in human society sacrifice significant utility to retain power.
See what the then-PM of Iraq did to the Iraqi military after the US withdrew, and how that resulted in their collapse in front of ISIS.

And we know that canonically even greater akuma have managed to rebel, which justifies the paranoia of Yama Kings.
It certainly happened to Emma-O.

Its possible, even plausible that other restrictions exist.
But there is nothing I can find in the sourcebooks I have, and I've looked.

No it isn't. Her line about clawing back free will was very specific in that it's within the clauses of the oath they swore.
Eiko is an experienced elder playing this game, and her best play is leaning in real hard on the best interests clause of her orders. Something that still obligates her to fill her other duties while she plays her game.

Absent very limited outside intervention they will continue following orders because their time to choose has passed and they're on to the consequences part of the process.
I feel we've been talking about this without references to what their limitations actually are.
Here's the passage:
THE CHAINS OF SLAVERY
Sooner or later, the akuma habituated to Soul Commerce
will go back to the well one too many times and lose his last
Soul point. At that point, possibly after a short delay during
which the vampire's soul fragments make their way into the'
hands of a single owner (short in immortal terms — it may be
as long as several mortal years), the vampire's master assumes
control of her new property.

What this means for the infernalist is that his existence has
just gotten a lot bleaker. On demand, the akuma must perform
the Rite of Renunciation, either in his dreams before the Yama
King or before one of the Yama King's servants in the material
world. After he has performed the Rite of Renunciation ana
been stripped of his Dharma, he is completely at the mercy of
his new master.

The Yama King or her servants may observe the akuma at
any time, and at their discretion, the Devil-eaten may be
destroyed, reduced to consuming flesh to gain the Chi neces-
sary to sustain his accursed existence or transformed into a
ravening chih-mei. Additionally, the Kuei-jin cannot disobey a
direct order from the Yama King whose chattel he has become.

Upon performing the Rite of Renunciation, most akuma are
generally ordered to preserve their own existence by any means
necessary, and prohibited from self-destruction or revealing
their Devil-eaten condition. Most are — but not all. Some are
simply destroyed on the spot (usually over the course of several
hours) for the amusement of the master. Others are sent on
suicide missions, often after having been reduced to chih-mei
status. Some unfortunates are taken to Yomi Wan to amuse
their owners more extensively, and these are perhaps the least
fortunate of all.

Those whom the Yama Kings deign to allow to retain their
sentience and self-will occasionally benefit to a small
degree from their new state. Many are given multiple
Touch of the Yama King Investments and ordered into
seclusion until they are needed to lead troupes of bakemono
or otherwise serve as the soldiers of the Yomi lords.
Cer-
tainly some of these akuma gain a degree of satisfaction
from their duties. Other akuma are kept in place as spies, or
painfully reshaped, provided with new identities and sent
to infiltrate the society of the Wan Kuei. Many of these
Devil-eaten are sometimes able to pretend that their souls
are still their own, and that they are not slaves to darkness.
Many Yama Kings encourage this sort of self-delusion,
even allowing their pawns to think that they have slipped
through the cracks and been forgotten. Sometimes this is
the case—-Hell's bookkeeping is not as efficient as it could
be.
In most cases, however, the Yama Kings simply watch,
amused, as the akuma infiltrates the society of the Quincunx,
only to strip him of his new foster-family and associates
when the time is right.

There are a few positive aspects to becoming one of the
Devil-eaten. First, if the Yama Kings so deign, the Kuei-jin may
be made able to feed on breath or blood as well as flesh. The
lesser akuma created by Soul Commerce are prohibited by their
masters from feeding by osmosis — this is reserved for the
exalted akuma created by the Pact of Ebony and Scarlet Jade.
Also, these Kuei-jin will never again enter Shadow Soul.
While the P'o and its urges of hate and terror remain, it is
forever the subjugated toady and stool-pigeon of the Kuei-jin's
new masters. It may inform on the vampire, but it never,
attempts to seize control outside of the instinctual urges of
Wave and Fire Soul. Akuma immediately gain the Merit:
Demon Mentor (Kindred of the East, p. 94). Finally, the Kuei-
jin may be given new Investments at his master's discretion, if
his owner feels it will make him more useful. While these latter
Investments may be given only to be stripped away at the
discretion of the Yama King and her minions, it may provide
the akuma with some small consolation to know that the
Investments that cost him his soul, at least, are forever his.
Lesser akuma are both more and less restricted than it would seem.
Those with the personal attention of their Yama King have much less wiggle room than others.
And in the absence of direct orders from their Yama King, even greater akuma have rebelled.

Intimacies matter, but they aren't mental transplants. You learn from your role models, and sometimes what you take away is that you think they're wrong.

Note that the other option isn't just killing them, it's trying to get them to legitimate authorities first. It's just that I'd take killing them over letting them go and I think Molly has the experience and divergent views via her connection to her mother and own experiences to reasonably make that choice.

You might disagree that it's a good idea, but I don't buy the idea that it's irreconcilable with Molly as a person at this juncture.

As to Harry and Micheal's responses; Harry had to be stopped several times from doing something like this, so I don't think he's likely to strongly object. Micheal might, but then we can have this conversation with him and work it out in character.
1)Parents and children, mentor and mentee are not photocopies of each other, yes.
But they generally retain the same principles. When they remain on speaking terms, at least.
This would represent a sufficient rift that I would expect to lose the Mentor background entirely.

2)There are no legitimate authorities here.
The Library does not qualify in my opinion, and Molly has existing doubts about their loyalties and their capabilities, let alone the ability to hold the servitors of a Yama King in any sort of security anyway.

3) In the short story The Warrior, Harry Dresden stopped Michael from killing the guy who kidnapped Alicia and strapped an explosive vest to her in order to get his hands on the Swords. Harry let Binder walk away from Demonreach. Harry let Rudolf live despite significant provocation including setting him up for murder, and didnt go after Madrigal Raith after dude tried to sell him on Ebay.

Zero chance he'd let Molly kill prisoners in cold blood.
Nevermind Michael.

Not saying it wasn't impressive, or proof of penetration, but that is not the same as full control
Oh, Im not saying its full control.
My apologies if you got that impression. Just that its vastly greater degree of infiltration than the term one helicopter would suggest. Especially given the lack of political kerfluffle afterwards.

Akuma are not capable of rejecting their masters, denarians theoretically can, the situation is not the same because the Fallen are limited by the White God smacking them if they breech certain rules.

They do not have any capability to be anything other than servants of Emma-O and Molly knows this. The only ways out of the being total monsters is death, being forcefully contained in the hope that Emma-O will eventually be killed or the incredibly unlikely event they encounter Jizo-Bosatsu.

Since they don't really have the capability to be anything other than monsters killing them is the moral option to prevent them inflicting further suffering on others. (I would also argue that destroying their souls to prevent them suffering in Yomi Wan would also be a morally correct action. But that would be OOC for Molly as she is a devout Catholic and thus has views about the sanctity and inviolability of souls, even if Christian theology is provably incorrect in the setting.)
1)Akuma must obey direct orders of their Yama King.
That leaves room for maneuver if your Yama King is not giving you direct orders, or you can avoid receiving orders except by intermediary.

2)Thats not actually true. Let me quote the story of Tashimoto Hanko, greater akuma of Emma-O:
Thousand Hells pg 117 said:
TASHIMOTO HANKO

One of the greatest generals of the uji no Bishamon, Tashimoto
Hanko was a Devil-Tiger warrior who was instrumental in the
successful defense of the Azure Dragon Court from invading
Korean and Chinese Kuei-jin after the invasion of 1274. Said to
be of unearthly cunning and possessed of strength beyond even
the mightiest of the Guan Ren, Tashimoto was worshipped by his
troops. Yet after the invaders were successfully thrown back and
the kamikaze destroyed the second invasion fleet, Tashimoto was
accused of Lesser Commerce with the Yama Kings by one of his
fellow Devil-Tigers, the yojimbo of Clan Bishamon's daimyo.

Hanko fled rather than stand trial, and it was only after much
investigation that it was ascertained that Hanko had not only
been engaging in Lesser Commerce, but had in fact accepted the
Pact of Ebony and Scarlet Jade several years before the invasion
of Japan, Indeed, training in Yomi was at least partially respon-
sible for his great prowess.

Yet this was not Tashimoto's greatest trick. Several decades
after his flight to the court of his patron
Emma-o, the island of Japan seemed to
turn upside down. Kumo and bakemono
walked openly during the daytime,
black magicians were found murdered
at crossroads with the marks of the
shikome on them, and packs of Hakken
known to have walked the Ebon Maze
were seen searching across the coun-
tryside. After weeks of turmoil, two
Kumo who knew the purposes of this
seemingly pointless activity were cap-
tured, and they revealed a story unique
in the annals of the Yomi World.

Tashimoto, with the assistance of a
number of shen including a powerful
Dragon Wizard, had stormed the gates
of Emma-o's treasury, seized the gold and
jade vase which contained his soul, and
then fled along the Ebon Road toward
Japan. Emma-o was furious, and would
stop at nothing to recapture Tashimoto
Hanko and his accomplices.


Yet, though the servants of
Emma-o combed the entirety of Ja-
pan (and much of China and Korea as
well), they never located Tashimoto Hanko. For six centuries
now, Tashimoto Hanko has gone without being seen or heard
from, and despite the fact that Emma-o offers a massive reward
for information that even hints at his location, his whereabouts
have never come to light. It is as if he had stepped off the edge
of the world.
That canonically happened to Emma-O. In his own capital, under his own nose.
Thats in addition to the other sections I've qupted about lesser akuma up the page.

This is evidence that Yama King control is nowhere as comprehensive as they would like.
And sufficient reason for their paranoia towards their servants.
 
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Akuma are not capable of rejecting their masters, denarians theoretically can, the situation is not the same because the Fallen are limited by the White God smacking them if they breech certain rules.

They do not have any capability to be anything other than servants of Emma-O and Molly knows this. The only ways out of the being total monsters is death, being forcefully contained in the hope that Emma-O will eventually be killed or the incredibly unlikely event they encounter Jizo-Bosatsu.

Since they don't really have the capability to be anything other than monsters killing them is the moral option to prevent them inflicting further suffering on others. (I would also argue that destroying their souls to prevent them suffering in Yomi Wan would also be a morally correct action. But that would be OOC for Molly as she is a devout Catholic and thus has views about the sanctity and inviolability of souls, even if Christian theology is provably incorrect in the setting.)
I mean some of these are broad statements that you probably shouldn't be making. Butchers at least stated the white god is more than just a christian thing in word of god. Also that stuff like Lucifer is the equivalent of a officer in a large company compared to hades small bussiness ceo. Given dp is probably gonna ignore parts of that.
 
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Yama Kings value their position and sovereignty over lost utility, and internal security over everything else.
Its not like its exclusive to them; authoritarian governments in human society sacrifice significant utility to retain power.
See what the then-PM of Iraq did to the Iraqi military after the US withdrew, and how that resulted in their collapse in front of ISIS.

And we know that canonically even greater akuma have managed to rebel, which justifies the paranoia of Yama Kings.
It certainly happened to Emma-O.

Its possible, even plausible that other restrictions exist.
But there is nothing I can find in the sourcebooks I have, and I've looked.
We've already gotten WoQM implying other soft limits. Overall I don't buy that paranoia alone is enough here, if only because straight import of the rules heavy factions of WoD to the DF makes every new faction a nation of hyper gods that should have displaced everyone else already.
sser akuma are both more and less restricted than it would seem.
Those with the personal attention of their Yama King have much less wiggle room than others.
And in the absence of direct orders from their Yama King, even greater akuma have rebelled
These are long shot hypotheticals. Legendary figures and exceptions to the rules. Even they still spent ages serving the Yama kings and advancing their interests.

These guys aren't likely to slip through the cracks and avoid getting more orders from above if we send them to Eiko.
But they generally retain the same principles.
This would represent a sufficient rift that I would expect to lose the Mentor background entirely.
That's ridiculous.

For one, have you ever met a teenager? General principle transplants aren't default. You're also discounting Charity's influences here.

Losing the background would be ridiculous. Micheal could argue with us about it, but he's not going to give up on Molly. This is straight fear mongering.
2)There are no legitimate authorities here.
The Library does not qualify in my opinion, and Molly has existing doubts about their loyalties and their capabilities, let alone the ability to hold the servitors of a Yama King in any sort of security anyway.
The Church is at the moment just father Forthil who does not have a goal to keep them in. By contrast the Library does, but you or your allies would have to guard them until a capture team arrived. Harry could whip up binding circles tuned to them and stick them inside for instance.
This is what we got on them. There's hasn't been any IC thought out toward this to say Molly specifically doubts their ability to hold the Akuma.

The bits and pieces of WoQM we've gotten over the last few pages have reinforced that the mortal governments aren't wholly owned puppets and that it's possible for stuff like this to be done even if they don't explicitly say the Library can definitely do it easily.
3) In the short story The Warrior, Harry Dresden stopped Michael from killing the guy who kidnapped Alicia and strapped an explosive vest to her in order to get his hands on the Swords. Harry let Binder walk away from Demonreach. Harry let Rudolf live despite significant provocation including setting him up for murder, and didnt go after Madrigal Raith after dude tried to sell him on Ebay.

Zero chance he'd let Molly kill prisoners in cold blood.
Nevermind Michael.
A reverse of half the Denarian encounters in the main series. They both clearly have their own lines on this.

Zero is a strong assertion to make when we're dealing with something in the grey area of both of their moral codes.

That canonically happened to Emma-O. In his own capital, under his own nose.
Thats in addition to the other sections I've qupted about lesser akuma up the page.
Are these guys epic level Akuma with powerful wizards to support them?

How many victims do they get to make between now and some hypothetical opportunity to rebel before you can just stop them?

You're presenting exceptions for exceptional circumstances that don't apply here.

Edit:

Your arguments are also inherently contradictory.

Are they dangerous super vampires who Emma-O will personally dream walk to and use to subvert the federal government (since evidently no one else with social boosters has tried it), or are they little fish who can slip the net with such ease that if we let them leave they probably won't hurt anyone?
 
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Given a lot of theology is provably false in dresden files so its more the White God is more than said theologies say than that what said theologies spout as fact is fact.
 
Generally I think it's useful to think about the thousand hells like casinos. They aren't all powerful, but they are pretty influential.

Some angles are easier to confront them at them others, but you shouldn't assume that you can walk into their place and make a fortune just because you occasionally hear about someone winning the jackpot.

These guys are washed up gamblers who've lost everything. Their ability to resist the casinos is limited. So too is their utility, since they were nobodies even before they lost everything.

It's reasonable to believe we can arrest them, but not that if we let them loose in Vegas again they won't end up smuggling guns and burying bodies by the end of the week.
 
We've already gotten WoQM implying other soft limits. Overall I don't buy that paranoia alone is enough here, if only because straight import of the rules heavy factions of WoD to the DF makes every new faction a nation of hyper gods that should have displaced everyone else already.
Agree to disagree I guess.

These are long shot hypotheticals. Legendary figures and exceptions to the rules. Even they still spent ages serving the Yama kings and advancing their interests. These guys aren't likely to slip through the cracks and avoid getting more orders from above if we send them to Eiko.
No they arent.

I've brought up Jizo.
Ive brought up textual citations that Yama Kings sometimes let akuma do their things for ages, and sometimes loose track of them altogether. I've provided citations that even greater akuma have broken their enslavement.

If it wasnt Easter Sunday I might take the time to find more.
Yama Kings are hella powerful and knowledgeable. Their control is demonstrably nowhere as comprehensive as they would like people to assume.
That's ridiculous.
For one, have you ever met a teenager? General principle transplants aren't default. You're also discounting Charity's influences here.

Losing the background would be ridiculous. Micheal could argue with us about it, but he's not going to give up on Molly. This is straight fear mongering.
Which part of Knight of the Cross are you missing?

There's a difference between teenage rebellion and killing PoWs.
This isnt wearing short skirts or piercings and tattoos or experimenting with drugs. Its not hanging out with a disreputable crowd or having teenage sex or getting into trouble with school.

He doesnt stop being her father, or loving her.
But I fail to see how you can expect him to continue mentoring her if she is killing people she has already disabled. Thats kinda diametrically opposed to the purpose of his Calling.

This is what we got on them. There's hasn't been any IC thought out toward this to say Molly specifically doubts their ability to hold the Akuma. The bits and pieces of WoQM we've gotten over the last few pages have reinforced that the mortal governments aren't wholly owned puppets and that it's possible for stuff like this to be done even if they don't explicitly say the Library can definitely do it easily.
Molly knows nothing about the Library besides that they destroy some books, and they specifically deny being an enforcement arm.
Nothing about their power or training, and very little about their knowledge.
She has no reason to assume they have the ability to hold a lesser Akuma.

If mortal governments were wholly owned puppets I wouldnt be worrying about their being infiltrated by a Yama King, because the current puppetmaster would presumably object.
A reverse of half the Denarian encounters in the main series. They both clearly have their own lines on this.
Zero is a strong assertion to make when we're dealing with something in the grey area of both of their moral codes.
Not actually true.
Dresden doesnt jump to attempting to kill Denarians, he just runs unless he has no options. Neither does Michael or Shiro; both always attempt to talk to them.

The only person I recall who tried was Murphy, and that was the occasion that Fidelacchius was broken.

Are these guys epic level Akuma with powerful wizards to support them?
How many victims do they get to make between now and some hypothetical opportunity to rebel before you can just stop them?
You're presenting exceptions for exceptional circumstances that don't apply here.
These people are not greater akuma who sold their entire souls in full knowledge of the consequences.
They arent that high profile, or worth his attention.
And the example demonstrates that even greater akuma can work their way out of their much more comprehensive contracts.

Edit:
Your arguments are also inherently contradictory.

Are they dangerous super vampires who Emma-O will personally dream walk to and use to subvert the federal government (since evidently no one else with social boosters has tried it), or are they little fish who can slip the net with such ease that if we let them leave they probably won't hurt anyone?
Their value is not in who they are, and rather in their temporal position.
If they arent in contact with the Library and affording Emma an unforseen opportunity to exploit, they arent going to be worth his personal attention or that of his greater servants.

I see no contradictions here.
 
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Agree to disagree I guess.
Fair enough.
No they arent.

I've brought up Jizo.
Ive brought up textual citations that Yama Kings sometimes let akuma do their things for ages, and sometimes loose track of them altogether. I've provided citations that even greater akuma have broken their enslavement.

If it wasnt Easter Sunday I might take the time to find more.
Yama Kings are hella powerful and knowledgeable. Their control is demonstrably nowhere as comprehensive as they would like people to assume.
This is like an ant speculating on the build quality of a boot that's about to stomp on it for these guys. They don't have the positioning to do anything yet.

Especially since you're voting to send them to Eiko, who will use their recovery to gain brownie points back with home office. They'll explicitly be back in the chain of command.

The Yama kings aren't as absolute as they pretend, but if this system didn't work 99.9% of the time they wouldn't use it.

It's neither simple or quick to get out once they're in. The cost of their potential redemption can be measured in the victims they make between now and then.

Which part of Knight of the Cross are you missing?

There's a difference between teenage rebellion and killing PoWs.
This isnt wearing short skirts or piercings and tattoos or experimenting with drugs. Its not hanging out with a disreputable crowd or having teenage sex or getting into trouble with school.

He doesnt stop being her father, or loving her.
But I fail to see how you can expect him to continue mentoring her if she is killing people she has already disabled. Thats kinda diametrically opposed to the purpose of his Calling.
If anything I'd expect the mentoring to go up and not down. In any case, good is not nice applies. These guys aren't human anymore, they don't play by the same rules.

I don't expect him to be happy about it, but I'd rather have that discussion in character if it becomes a sticking point. Even if it does I don't believe it'll be a dramatic end point.

Molly knows nothing about the Library besides that they destroy some books, and they specifically deny being an enforcement arm.
Nothing about their power or training, and very little about their knowledge.
She has no reason to assume they have the ability to hold a lesser Akuma.

If mortal governments were wholly owned puppets I wouldnt be worrying about their being infiltrated by a Yama King, because the current puppetmaster would presumably object.
If they were that easy to infiltrate they'd already be infiltrated. Emma-O got these guys into the country easily enough, he could have gotten them already.

The library is and does more than that. We know from our discussions with them that they've got connections with everyone who does supernatural stuff in the US government and diplomatic relations of a kind with the white council. They may not directly be enforcement themselves, but if they're unable to handle it (despite the WoQM that they can) then they can work something out.
Not actually true.
Dresden doesnt jump to attempting to kill Denarians, he just runs unless he has no options. Neither does Michael or Shiro; both always attempt to talk to them.

The only person I recall who tried was Murphy, and that was the occasion that Fidelacchius was broken.
Spiny boy or whatever his name is, the guy who faked giving up his coin.
These people are not greater akuma who sold their entire souls in full knowledge of the consequences.
They arent that high profile, or worth his attention.
And the example demonstrates that even greater akuma can work their way out of their much more comprehensive contracts.
Their value is not in who they are, and rather in their temporal position.
If they arent in contact with the Library and affording Emma an unforseen opportunity to exploit, they arent going to be worth his personal attention or that of his greater servants.

I see no contradictions here.
So if we take them away after a complete loss and stick them in a containment unit they become a super threat, but if we send them back to sit directly under his eye they'll be fine?

You're dramatically exaggerating how easy it is to get out and glossing over the cost of the potential they'll do it.

I don't think any given baby grade akuma is actually capable of supporting arbitrary enhancements and skillfully applying them to the degree that they can pull what you're describing.

If it was ever that easy someone else would have taken over and patched that hole centuries ago.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Not sure if that applies here, since it seems to imply that the whole setting was actually full of idiots until Evil!Gary-Stu Emma-O showed up to take the obvious opportunities.

Edit: errors
 
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