Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

DragonParadox said:

A Host Assembled

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COMMENTARY
-Poor Michael. Watching your kid put herself at risk cant be easy for a parent.


-Murphy's comment about being informed that senior govt officials want to keep some things under wraps gives some insight about what the Library told her.
I think we can assume that everything we show publicly goes into the unofficial report that the Library gets a copy of.


-Loling at Lydia/Daniel.
Still surprised she has managed to avoid being invited for a family dinner with Charity and all the jawas for the last three months.
Cant dodge it much longer, I suspect.

Doomed, I say. Doomed


-It says interesting things IC that Odin already had 20x spare troops and an extra rune-caster in town.

Were they just passing through Chicago on their way elsewhere? Did Marcone/Gard pick up on the akuma when it showed up and preemptively beef up his defenses by hiring some more forces temporarily? Did Odin notice and conveniently move an action team into place on the premise that someone would be interested in paying for their services once the akuma were noticed?

Or was Odin planning on removing them on general principles? We'll never know.


-Minimum picks here are Lydia + Michael + Devsimar.

Lydia has Authority of the Psychopomp, which works against undead in social combat. Devsimar is a senior Shih hunter, which translates to knowledge about kuejin and a lot of shen. Michael bears a Sword, which is a promise of both forgiveness and obliteration in equal measure.

But I'm inclined to bring everyone.

Dresden and Murphy could use initial exposure to an akuma under controlled conditions before throwing them into combat, especially if more kuejin and akuma come sniffing around Chicago in the future. Gard has a type advantage against undead as a Valkyrie, and represents Mollys ability to acquire additional resources as necessary.

And as senior Monoc operative onsite, having Gard in the room saves time on briefing her about what happened.
Still gonna need a stunt.

DragonParadox said:

Rolls
Persuading Murphy that mercenaries with mortars are a good idea
Opposed roll... she is stubborn, but not Charity-stubborn

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It sure is reassuring that Murphy doesnt get the same bonuses against Molly's social that Charity does.

Yog said:

It is my understanding that the only being who can be "programmed" among akuma is the Greater Akuma Kakuri's Will on Earth. Everyone else retains their will.

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Wrong. All lesser akuma are the same. They must follow any direct order they're given*. The difference is that the greater akuma can also get their personality reshaped at the point they're made akuma so are much less likely to actively look for loopholes in the set of orders they must follow.

Lady Eiko has presumably found a set of loopholes in her orders. Without knowing what they are we basically can't turn her.

* in person in the 'physical' presence of the Yama Kings or in their dreams.

[X] BronzeTongue

[X] Yog

uju32 said:

-It says interesting things IC that Odin already had 20x spare troops and an extra rune-caster in town.

Were they just passing through Chicago on their way elsewhere? Did Marcone/Gard pick up on the akuma when it showed up and preemptively beef up his defenses by hiring some more forces temporarily? Did Odin notice and conveniently move an action team into place on the premise that someone would be interested in paying for their services once the akuma were noticed?

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I was wondering about that, too.

Couldn't decide what was more interesting, the idea that Monoc Securities keeps a rapid reaction force in Chicago for when supernatural kerfluffles strike, or that they don't but were still able to get them here so quickly anyway.

I'm leaning toward the latter. Odin probably has a pretty sweet system of well charted and maintained Ways setup for his people to use, at least linking up major population centers or supernatural hotspots. If so, it probably ties into the myth of Yggdrasil in some manner.

Odin has a reputation for being honest in his dealings. We have not much of any reputation to speak of, but we do not look (from a metaphysical/magical PoV) like someone who would be particularly safe or trustworthy, even with several major players vouching for us. Most supernatural players are likely to see us, at least at first, as most akin to either something demon or demon-adjacent, or a Denarian. Neither of whom have even remotely good reputations. That being said, I would not be surprised that major players would be bargaining with us from the assumption that we will most likely try to screw them over. They're likely not going to play any more fair than they absolutely have to in order to maintain their reputation.
Basically, I would assume that they would be 'bargaining' with us going forward under the same assumptions that they would have bargaining with *Denarians*, well, minus perhaps the *proven* history of oathbreaking.

Both prevailing plans are basically guaranteed to fail because Lady Eiko lacks the degree of free will required for them to succeed. Note these are the restrictions that Lady Eiko is working under:


* elsewhere we're told this happens basically immediately that one Yama King owns all an akuma's soul. It's performing the Rite of Renunciation that makes a Wan Kuei a 'real' akuma.

So, Lady Eiko is:

• vulnerable to being surveilled by Emma-O or the Will or one of Emma-O's devils that has been told to keep an eye on her at any time
• If observed betraying Emma-O, can be destroyed or turned into an omnicidal killing machine at any time
• Can be given unbreakable orders she must obey, including standing orders

Despite that, she's managed to come up a way to thread through the loopholes of her standing orders to come up with a way to betray Emma-O without being noticed in the past, and expects to aboid being noticed for long enough after betraying Emma-O to have these constraints removed. Just getting this far means she's genuinely an extraordinary genius.

Just going in mob handed and threatening her is not going to work.

If we want some semblanced of a civilised talk with the threats staying on the low down unless it actually becomes necessary to realise them, we should definitly not go in with everyone.

Crowding them room like that is not only threatening, but also leaves Eiko far less ability to present a dignified front if she does surrender.
Let's not escalate this before it even starts, or it that is the plan then start by blowing up the room after Gard clears out nearby mortals.

Yog said:

That's interesting. Do we know when he got recruited and whether he's a willing collaborator or not? In any way, that still makes in important to find him, if only because he represents a vulnerability for Mouse.

And we should look if there are other temple dogs available for adoption / hire.

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I assume when the entire litter was kidnapped, and Harry recovered all but two at the beginning of Blood Rites.
My Shadow was the eldest male, the eldest female is also missing, and Mouse was runt of the litter who stowed away to stay behind when his littermates were taken back to the monastery. Or it was arranged that he stay behind; coincidences are suspicious.

He seems to have been portrayed as Cowl's Mouse in that short story though.
I wouldnt worry about his being a vulnerability for Mouse; Mouse calls him a Bad Dog before he and Cerberus kick his ass.
Apparently temple dogs arent really on the market, if we believe Mai's reaction to Mouse in Turn Coat.

Yog said:

Just as me, you are reaching. In essence, those examples are not really valid, because Toot-Toot and Za guard are minor fae, and Murphy is mortal. They don't matter. They are considered tools of Dresden's. At least that's my interpretation.

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Nah.
When Dresden wielded the Wild Hunt against the Outsiders in Cold Days, they were also considered tools of Dresden.
Even though both the Erl King and Kringle, the two known kings of Faerie, were members at the time.

[X] BronzeTongue

Note that this talk has to be something that Lady Eiko can justify to the Will after the devil that's probably keeping her under continuous surveillance reports it to him, otherwise she'll have her kill/disable switch flicked.

Ok, not the best stunt:

[X] Plausible Deniability
- [X] Brother Divsimar, skilled Shih Master
- [X] Lydia, Daughter of Arwan, Once King of the Underworld
- [X] Stunt: Use the Crown on an image of Lady Eiko to learn her plan to betray the Will, and if that doesn't tell you the orders she's bound by, ask that when you see her. Before going up, quickly brainstorm with your allies how to adapt her plan/work around her constraints. In the room, allow your anima to flare with the light of a dead green sun, cutting through the false darkness of her temporary haven. Then, use your knowledge of her plans to hint to her that you can offer a better deal, without tipping off any audience, under the guise of negotiating for a return of the hostages. Use the relevant Excellency to support making your case and passing on you message. Tell her your phone number to arrange another follow on meeting.

Alratan said:

Both prevailing plans are basically guaranteed to fail because Lady Eiko lacks the degree of free will required for them to succeed. Note these are the restrictions that Lady Eiko is working under:

On demand*, the akuma must perform the Rite of Renunciation, either in his dreams before the Yama King or before one of the Yama King's servants in the material world. After he has performed the Rite of Renunciation and been stripped of his Dharma, he is completely at the mercy of his new master.

The Yama King or her servants may observe the akuma at any time, and at their discretion, the Devil-eaten may be destroyed, reduced to consuming flesh to gain the Chi necessary to sustain his accursed existence or transformed into a ravening chih-mei. Additionally, the Kuei-jin cannot disobey a direct order from the Yama King whose chattel he has become. Upon performing the Rite of Renunciation, most akuma are generally ordered to preserve their own existence by any means necessary, and prohibited from self-destruction or revealing their Devil-eaten condition.​

* elsewhere we're told this happens basically immediately that one Yama King owns all an akuma's soul. It's performing the Rite of Renunciation that makes a Wan Kuei a 'real' akuma.

So, Lady Eiko is:

• vulnerable to being surveilled by Emma-O or the Will or one of Emma-O's devils that has been told to keep an eye on her at any time
• If observed betraying Emma-O, can be destroyed or turned into an omnicidal killing machine at any time
• Can be given unbreakable orders she must obey, including standing orders

Despite that, she's managed to come up a way to thread through the loopholes of her standing orders to come up with a way to betray Emma-O without being noticed in the past, and expects to aboid being noticed for long enough after betraying Emma-O to have these constraints removed. Just getting this far means she's genuinely an extraordinary genius.

Just going in mob handed and threatening her is not going to work.

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It was my understanding that of every akuma (in the political sense), only Kakuri's Will on Earth was the "real" Akuma. Everyone else only had parts of their souls in Emma-O's possession, not the whole thing. And Yama Kings, while capable of exerting influence over those who sold them parts of their souls, generally refrain from doing so.

Yog said:

It was my understanding that of every akuma (in the political sense), only Kakuri's Will on Earth was the "real" Akuma. Everyone else only had parts of their souls in Emma-O's possession, not the whole thing. And Yama Kings, while capable of exerting influence over those who sold them parts of their souls, generally refrain from doing so.

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No. Those who have sold parts of their soul aren't in service to the Yama Kings*. They're just people who've sold parts of their soul for power. They're still on the Road Back and can still save themselves and reach the Hundred Clouds**. They're considered infernalists and akuma by the courts for making unauthorised deals with the Yama Kings if caught, and they may sell out completely to survive, but they wouldn't be here.

The vast majority of real Akuma who serve the Yama Kings are lesser akuma. Those who've traded away the rights to their soul bit by bit until they don't own any of it anymore and have to perform the Rite of Renunciation and become a slave of a yama king, and are bound by the restrictions I give above. I expect all the Wan Kuei in this expedition save for the Will are lesser akuma. They're the 'default' akuma.

The few exceptions are greater akuma like the Will of Kakuri. They're powerful or very talented Wan Kuei who've signed the Pact of Ebony and Scarlet Jade and been transformed into dark messiahs. They're the ones who've decided it's better to rule in (a) Hell rather than serve in Heaven.

Note that the Wan Kuei who passed the message to us didn't know the terminology we were using that one on a Dharma would have learned. He almost must be an actual lesser akuma. That's what Usum identified him as.

Wan Kuei may become political akuma, but all being a political akuma means if that you've been convicted of being an actual akuma whether you are or not. This is usually because you've annoyed someone more powerful than you for whatever reason. That could be somewhat legitimate, say if you were caught performing Iris Bulb Commerce and didn't have a powerful enough mentor to get you a stay of execution, or totally illegitimate, just because you clashed with a young master type with their own powerful mentor. Most political akuma aren't actually akuma, they're falsely accused, and most akuma aren't political akuma, as they've not been caught or are believed dead.

* Note that DP has changed things. In canon, the Yama Kings have no influence over those who've only sold some of their soul whatsoever.
** They almost have to be, as it's exceptionally hard for most Wan Kuei to actively serve the Yama Kings (rather than just do deals with them while deluding themselves that they'll win out of the deal) without their Dharma*** evaporating in short order from the repeated Acts of Blindness this involves and reverting back to Chin-Mei status. It's a not very extended form of ego-suicide.
*** With the arguable exception of the Tempest of Inward Focus who don't believe the Yama Kings really exist and the Scorpion Eaters who have a non-aggression pact.

[X] Yog

Alratan said:

They almost have to be, as it's exceptionally hard for most Wan Kuei to actively serve the Yama Kings (rather than just do deals with them while deluding themselves that they'll win out of the deal) without their Dharma*** evaporating in short order from the repeated Acts of Blindness this involves and reverting back to Chin-Mei status. It's a not very extended form of ego-suicide.

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There is a Dharma that allows for service to the Yama Kings without selling your soul.
It's effectivly dead in Wan Kuei society, but the Yama Kings and the older Greater Akuma would obviously remember it and be able to teach the basics.

Artemis1992 said:

Way of Ten Thousand Screams

The Way of Ten Thousand Screams was an early Dharma from before Xue's formulation of the Fivefold Way, during the time of the Demon Warrior Empire. The Way of Ten Thousand Screams was the first to advocate embracing the P'o in an attempt to achieve a perfect union with the Yama Kings. The...

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There is a Dharma that allows for service to the Yama Kings without selling your soul.
It's effectivly dead in Wan Kuei society, but the Yama Kings and the older Greater Akuma would obviously remember it and be able to teach the basics.

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Precisely what the Way of a Thousand Screams is in unclear. It may be about emulating a specific Yama King so you can murder and replace them for all we know. Also, it's an extinct from what I see.

If the Yama Kings were actively teaching it to Wan Kuei, it wouldn't be extinct. And they'd be crazy to, as it would make it less likely for people to become akuma.

Note KotE Companion says:


The line about servitude isn't there. It's quite possible that Wan Kuei on this Dharma were trying to emulate a Yama King and take on the role that the Yama King was meant to be doing but had stopped doing because they'd renounced their service.

[X]Plan Hostile Takeover
-[X] Everyone
--[X]<Molly> All Things Betray + Empathy Excellency + Imperial Primacy Mantle + Naked Wicked Souls: 4m
--[X]<Lydia> Manipulation Excellency if necessary.
--[X]STUNT: In the pre-dawn light, your little procession makes its way out of the stairwell and along the fourth-floor corridor, darkness gathering in your wake with your intent. As you are about to knock on the door of the suite, the door opens and an irritated voice begins "I specifically asked that I...." the words trail off as the woman you'd previously only seen before in video footage sees your party. "Good morning, Eiko-san. I got your letter." Blue eyes meet reddish brown eyes as the temperature in the corridor drops ten degrees."I and my associates are here to discuss your presence in my city. And your....personal options."


Initial Status
7/12 Essence
9/9 WP


RATIONALE
As has been pointed out, Molly doesnt have much of a supernatural reputation to fall back on, and assumptions are likely to be adverse.Even from an akuma. Or rather, especially from an akuma; they have no reason to believe charity from a greater devil, and Molly very much feels like a greater archdevil.

With a senior Shih, and a representative of the White Council both here, the more likely Eiko is likely to believe we are negotiating in good faith and not simply lying to suit our current purposes. In particular, having Michael with a Sword there helps.
And each person represents Mollys ability to gather resources and allies.

=All Things Betray to reduce the difficulty of Perception rolls, especially social Perception rolls.
=Imperial Primacy Mantle because Shikome are infamous for social magic as well as assassination
=Empathy Excellency > Etiquette Excellency because social Perception rolls to determine the opposition's state of mind and sincerity is Perception + Empathy.
=Naked Wicked Souls gives us secret lore(an ambassador of Emma-O's secrets should qualify), and should help us regenerate Essence.

Also, we get +5 Essence at sunrise.
And if we uncover secrets or bind her into our service, thats an extra +2 Essence.
And a 30 minute drive to South Works is +2 Essence if we spend it soaking in bleach.

So no need to be miserly with Essence expenditure.

---

Yog said:

It was my understanding that of every akuma (in the political sense), only Kakuri's Will on Earth was the "real" Akuma. Everyone else only had parts of their souls in Emma-O's possession, not the whole thing. And Yama Kings, while capable of exerting influence over those who sold them parts of their souls, generally refrain from doing so.

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There's three types of akuma:
1)Political akuma, who got declared so by other kuejin. They may or may not have had anything to do with Yomi Wan; some have sold chunks of their souls, some may not have
2)Lesser akuma who sold their entire souls off a piece at a time, or are in the process of doing so.
3)Greater akuma, who sold their soul, intact, to one Yomi King in a big arranged contract with legal guarantees

Shikome are, to my understanding, usually category 2.
Anyway, I am reasonably sure that Misery In Servitude would apply here.
As per the text:

The suffering of Hell is eternal, and as such, the Infernal preserves her flawed and decaying servants, that they might further serve her will.
System: Whenever a bakemono – a sort of cursed mutant that werewolves know as fomori – acts to carry out the Infernal's will, the various torments of its mutant state are held in abeyance. If its acidic powers normally rot its body from the inside-out, they cease to do so while it slaves on her behalf. If the spiritual corruption festering in its flesh is killing it with a variety of aggressive cancers, they go into remission. If the use of one of its powers normally causes it great damage and pain, it no longer does so. Even derangements of the mind inflicted by the creature's fallen state are temporarily set aside while it does the Infernal's bidding.

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uju32 said:

Shikome are, to my understanding, usually category 2.
Anyway, I am reasonably sure that Misery In Servitude would apply here.
As per the text:

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It 100% wouldn't in ExWoD. False Springs Beckon may, but only may. Even the later probably wouldn't stop the Yama King from pulling their dark blessings, which is all that's stopping the dharma-less degenerating to be a chin-mei.

I don't see why it would disable the kill switch they have either, or the ability to give orders either. It wouldn't stop a ghoul's blood bond, or stop someone that had been mind controlled following the installed orders.

It's just a one dot charm.

Note that Torments and Derangements are system terms. Torments are the negative side effects a mortal body suffers from having a bane spirit living in it. Derangements are specifically mental damage that some Torments cause. Note that akuma don't have derangements, and that it doesn't help all Derangements, just Derangements caused by Torments.

Akuma don't have Torments. They aren't possessed. They're not in a mutant state because of it. They've sold their soul and their master has authority over them as a result. They work on a completely different mechanism.

This should no more block a Yama King's authority over their servants than it should turn block Mab's authority over the creatures of Winter.

Alratan said:

Precisely what the Way of a Thousand Screams is in unclear. It may be about emulating a specific Yama King so you can murder and replace them for all we know. Also, it's an extinct from what I see.

If the Yama Kings were actively teaching it to Wan Kuei, it wouldn't be extinct. And they'd be crazy to, as it would make it less likely for people to become akuma.

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Dunno if it counts as a full Dharma.

The point is more or less, if the Yama Kings or their Akuma want Wan Kuei minions, they can get them.
A Dharma that is not a road towards heaven would not go particularly high, but some basic stabilizing philosophy to keep useful minions from falling into full Chin-Mei.

Also some Dharma's teachings are so divorced from practicality that you can in fact serve a Yama King without necessarily falling from the Dharma.
A Wan Kuei, even an advanced Elder, on the Path of a Thousand Whispers could spend one of her metaphorical "lifetimes" as a servant of a Yama King to learn from the experience, as long as she does not fully bind herself to the devil.

To learn from those around you, to try and teach an Elder Akuma, to experience life as a servant of Hell are all valuable things to someone like that.
Of course it might be that they are close to terminating that relationship, as their Dharma will eventually demand, so now they seek to cut ties.

This is just a hypothetical motivation for a full Elder to be here in this role without being a true, mind-bound Akuma.

[x] uju32

Yeah, this is closest to my take on things. I want this to be about how they went after our people, so now we're going to bring the hammer down. We hired so many mercenaries because we wanted to send a message about how far we're willing to go to protect our own. And leveraging that "benevolent boss" image will make them more likely to swear servitude.

We literally already made the promises and paid the price for demonstrating that Molly Carpenter, Dread Lady of Chicago is someone who takes care of her own. Let's continue with that message.

Alratan said:

It 100% wouldn't in ExWoD. False Springs Beckon may, but only may. Even the later probably wouldn't stop the Yama King from pulling their dark blessings, which is all that's stopping the dharma-less degenerating to be a chin-mei.

I don't see why it would disable the kill switch they have either, or the ability to give orders either. It wouldn't stop a ghoul's blood bond, or stop someone that had been mind controlled following the installed orders.

It's just a one dot charm.

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The same reason it works on ghoul and whampire Hungers, and prevents fledgelings from dying.
Because Exalted magic is bullshit like that.
And defense primacy.

The terms of MiS are explicit about applying to drawbacks inherent to the condition, and Yama King fuckery is inherent to the state of being an akuma.
Service gives Citizenship.

I would expect False Springs Beckons to work as well with regular renewal.
Ditto Verdant Emptiness Endowment.
As for being a 1 dot charm, so is Cracked Cell Circumvention, and it would still apply to Yama King fuckery.

uju32 said:

--[X]<Molly> All Things Betray + Empathy Excellency + Imperial Primacy Mantle + Naked Wicked Secrets: 4m

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Etiquette should be far more appropriate. And it's Naked Wicked Souls. And we absolutely shouldn't use it right now. It's not relevant to the current situation, and we'll likely need to roll willpower not to puke at the atrocities Eiko committed.

Good night guys, see you tomorrow as we finally get the talk with Lady Eiko, in company large or small.

Artemis1992 said:

Dunno if it counts as a full Dharma.

The point is more or less, if the Yama Kings or their Akuma want Wan Kuei minions, they can get them.
A Dharma that is not a road towards heaven would not go particularly high, but some basic stabilizing philosophy to keep useful minions from falling into full Chin-Mei.

Also some Dharma's teachings are so divorced from practicality that you can in fact serve a Yama King without necessarily falling from the Dharma.
A Wan Kuei, even an advanced Elder, on the Path of a Thousand Whispers could spend one of her metaphorical "lifetimes" as a servant of a Yama King to learn from the experience, as long as she does not fully bind herself to the devil.

To learn from those around you, to try and teach an Elder Akuma, to experience life as a servant of Hell are all valuable things to someone like that.
Of course it might be that they are close to terminating that relationship, as their Dharma will eventually demand, so now they seek to cut ties.

This is just a hypothetical motivation for a full Elder to be here in this role without being a true, mind-bound Akuma.

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You could try it, I suppose, but it would be pretty hard to thread the needle with the core principles that underly all the Orthodox Dharma, the Great Principle of Xue.

If we're dealing with dozens of elder Centipedes, we're screwed as well.

uju32 said:

The same reason it works on ghoul and whampire Hungers, and prevents fledgelings from dying.
Because Exalted magic is bullshit like that.
And defense primacy.

The terms of MiS are explicit about applying to drawbacks inherent to the condition, and Yama King fuckery is inherent to the state of being an akuma.
Service gives Citizenship.

I would expect False Springs Beckons to work as well with regular renewal.
Ditto Verdant Emptiness Endowment.
As for being a 1 dot charm, so is Cracked Cell Circumvention, and it would still apply to Yama King fuckery.

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Mercy in Servitude is a very limited one dot charm that in ExWoD works on one very specific category of problem of one flavour of supernatural being.

That's been extended here, but the inherent side effects of a supernatural being are ve et different to the consequences of having sold your soul to someone and them having power over you, and of your natural state being a frenzied animal and them protecting you from that.

Should it protect someone from the consequences of knowing your True Name, or having sworn service to Mab?

Or give an animal spaience?

Basically, you're making Mercy in Servitude vastly better than False Springs Beckon. VEE is simply inapplicable here. This isn't a question of merit, flaw, or dots in a trait.