Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

The extent to which Odin and Donnar are different people is not quite the same as with Kris Kringle from what Molly understands, Donnar after all commands Odin's valkyries and his einherjar, those people did not signup to a mercenary company to get their powers, their souls were claimed off battlefields, or they made a pact with the Wanderer. Given his profession, his associates and the symbolism around Monoc Donar Vadderung is likely to mean 'Odin in Office hours' than it is to be an entirely distinct identity.
 
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The Holy People came to do a job, and left after the job was done.
Gods stay to interact with humanity until the White God called time on the assignment.
Different pantheons behave in different ways. No need to invent a new class of entities for them.
1)In the Dresdenverse setting, angels >>> gods. Hell, Dragons >>> most gods.
Which is why Dresden and Bob essentially calling the naagloshii sorta angels was significant.
Not all angels are created equal and at the time Dresden's knowledge of cosmology was very different than it became later. "angel" here most likely means "non-mortal messenger servant to a deity".
 
Polymorph potion is only 2 XP.
That too.
I didnt mention it because it requires preptime, which isnt always feasible.
Shapeshifting 1 would do the same thing, and we can get the cost down to 2XP as well.

Oh, there absolutely a lot of things that Odin can do with one fight that we won't want him to do. The simplest thing? Involving Molly in large scale conflict she's not a part of. LIke making her an enemy of Summer Court. Or preventing her being there to stop Dresden from becoming a Winter Knight. It's all in the timing.
Nah, doesnt work that way.
You can literally tell the other guy "Im doing this to pay off a favor" for example. See Mab telling Dresden to work for Nicodemus, and neither Marcone nor Hades held the damage done against Dresden personally.

Culpability is legally supposed to fall on the instigator in the supernatural world, even if they hire help.
Thats why Titania holds Dresden responsible for the death of Aurora, but not Toot-Toot and the Za Guard who actually struck the killing blows. Or why Mab didnt consider Thomas/Charity/Murphy responsible for Arctis Tor.

My understanding is that Intellectus itself is sorta like google - you dont' simultaneously know everything, you still need to pay attention and ask yourself questions / think about something.

Also, I wouldn't consider "location specific" Intellectus to be less than topic-specific one.

Also, I found a quote (Battleground, chapter 36, thanks to wiki on Intellectus):
1)Sorta.

My understanding is that the information in your area of focus is immediately available if you ask, and the information is always available. I said Google because search engines still has to search for if the information is accessible, which isnt always.
Winter Law will tell you about Winter Law if you ask, but it doesnt extend to Winter itself.

Whatever Ivy has is better than intellectus by the way, because she actually gets messages written to her
She doesnt have to think about it. Almost like a god hearing a prayer.


2)Location specific intellectus is absolutely less than the topic specific variety.
Intellectus that only applies to your bedroom, or your house, or a several square mile island is very useful while you're there, and absolutely worthless to you outside that location.

Valkyries have Intellectus in regard to Honored Dead. Which is more impressive, if you think about it, than "torture methods".
So, yeah, naagloshii should be a valkyrie peer.
Thank you for the citation; I havent read that part of the book yet. Certainly gives the Valks more metaphysical oomph.
Regardless, Honored Dead.
Those who are dead and the manner of their death. They dont know any more than that. Very limited focus.

The naagloshii have intellectus for inflicting pain.
Will it hurt more if I stab you in the eye or the kidney? Would murdering your wife hurt more than crippling your daughter?
Would staking you out in sunlight hurt more than dripping garlic oil on your body? Which taunt would hurt you the most?

Torture is just one application; someone skilled and capable at inflicting pain makes an incredible combatant should they choose, given precisely how wound penalties work.
Nevermind workimg as a social provocateur. Assuming any naagloshii had the patience for it.


Different pantheons behave in different ways.
The Holy People, as I understand it, are supposed to be below the big Creator Deity, but were agents of creation itself.
Like angels in Christian mythology.
Granted, Im no expert on Navajo mythology, and I dont want to make any claims about the religion of an actual tribe.

So take it as you will.
Not all angels are created equal and at the time Dresden's knowledge of cosmology was very different than it became later. "angel" here most likely means "non-mortal messenger servant to a deity".
Turn Coat was Year 10. 1 year before Changes. Five years after Dead Beat.

He'd been a Warden regional Commander for five years at this point. Travelled across the US.
And he canonically talked to knowledgeable Native Americans in-story about the subject.
I think he probably has a good idea what he's talking about.
 
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Thank you for the citation; I havent read that part of the book yet. Certainly gives the Valks more metaphysical oomph.
Regardless, Honored Dead.
Those who are dead and the manner of their death. They dont know any more than that. Very limited focus.
Read the quote:
"Einherjar," I said. "Murph didn't 'die well.'"

Gard's eyes flashed. "She died slaying a Jotun," she said roughly. "She did it to protect you. And she got results. She died a warrior's death. One without personal glory. The one that happened because she was doing what was necessary."

I tilted my head at her.

She waved a hand vaguely at her temple. "It's a limited intellectus, of the honored dead, of their deeds. I know who she was now, Dresden. Don't you dare cheapen her death by suggesting it was less than the culmination of a life of habitual valor."
See the bolded underlined parts? Gard (and valkyries in general) get to know the whole life of the honored dead. So, every scene Murphy witnessed, every secret she was privy to? Gard knows. She knows (if she thinks about it) every secret every honored dead knew. All the soldiers, the firemen, the wardens of the white council, venatori, and quite possibly knights of the cross who met their end fighting a good fight? Gard knows all their secrets.

I wouldn't call that "very limited focus". There are a lot of the dead people in history. It's far more than what a naagloshii gets. And, besides, and importantly, we don't know (I think) if all naagloshii get Intellectus, or if that one was a bit special.
Nah, doesnt work that way.
You can literally tell the other guy "Im doing this to pay off a favor" for example. See Mab telling Dresden to work for Nicodemus, and neither Marcone nor Hades held the damage done against Dresden personally.

Culpability is legally supposed to fall on the instigator in the supernatural world, even if they hire help.
Thats why Titania holds Dresden responsible for the death of Aurora, but not Toot-Toot and the Za Guard who actually struck the killing blows. Or why Mab didnt consider Thomas/Charity/Murphy responsible for Arctis Tor.
That's assuming you get the other party to listen, and they believe you, and they care. Not everyone is rational. And that doesn't address "get Molly to not be where she would otherwise be at a critical time" problem.
The Holy People, as I understand it, are supposed to be below the big Creator Deity, but were agents of creation itself.
Like angels in Christian mythology.
Granted, Im no expert on Navajo mythology, and I dont want to make any claims about the religion of an actual tribe.

So take it as you will.
Odin is a creator deity in his own mythology. The one to give humans spirit and life. One of the three to make the world as we know it - the earth, the sky, etc. It's not a unique thing.
 
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5)Its no-visa travel, not open borders.

And its not diplomatic immunity either; a person inside our territory is still subject to our laws just like any guest. The cantrev lord "Froggy" in Bombshells enjoyed guest right and diplomatic immunity in svartalfar territory until he tried to set off a chemical weapon at a svartalfar reception and got summarily dismembered, according to svartalfar law and custom.
This is what it says:

[] Free passage into your Domain for those who serve the One-Eye 3 points (You have a feeling this does not just mean the Last Station)
Assuming the finer details is how you get in trouble with these things.
 
Another thing that Donar/Odin could use to screw us over (as could Mab, for that matter)? Linguistic Drift.
The meanings of certain words shift and change over time, and they might well choose to interpret whatever agreement we make as using whatever definition is most advantageous to them.
For the record, I am assuming that we are still very much on Mab's shitlist for Arctis Tor; at the Museum there may have been too many unknowns for her to take action against us more directly; I suspect that she will have no compunctions when next we meet.

Assuming the finer details is how you get in trouble with these things.

Aye, and that goes for all of them (save probably the money option, but I don't know for certain); this would be an awful time to get screwed over, shafted, or otherwise taken advantage of, but I'm not sure whether we can afford not to call upon them…

I think knowledge, battle, and access to the realm have already been covered as to how issues might arise, but even for crafting… if he considers/claims our works to not only be insufficient, but insufficient due to us deliberately shortchanging him, he could well demand more from us as compensation.
Hell, even for the money option, since we got the additional point of credit from our socials, he could claim that we did so through trickery of some sort, and demand restitution.
 
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Note that in ExWoD it's possible to mess with Exaltations in ways impossible in Exalted.

It's quite possible that a sufficiently upgraded Greater Akuma could mess with their targeting. We just don't know otherwise. Particularly if there's some sympathetic resonance between Kakuri and the Exaltation after being buried there for so long.

A couple of other things, Emma-O is a god that went bad. There are ascended Yama Kings. Emma-O isn't one of them. He's not even one of the ministers of the Celestial Bureaucracy that's become corrupt.

In terms of countermeasures, a greater akuma should be able to summon war-devils from Kakuri and bind spectres. There could be a lot of nasty opposition and guards on any prisoners.

The other thing prisoners are useful for is chi batteries for the lesser akuma, which is possibly the motive to keep them alive. Supernaturals can provide a lot of energy between their native energy pools and their health.

Last thought. Emma-O and Mikaboshi are mortal enemies who have warred for centuries. If anyone should be prepared for dealing with cyber-devils possessing technology, it's Emma-O's akuma. Leaving the possessed cellphone on them couod be deliberate.

The Wan Kuei should be able to see the cyber-devils as well.
 
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Another thing that Donar/Odin could use to screw us over (as could Mab, for that matter)? Linguistic Drift.
The meanings of certain words shift and change over time, and they might well choose to interpret whatever agreement we make as using whatever definition is most advantageous to them.
Fine print is dangerous, and making sure the contract says what you think it does before you sign is key, but I don't think this particular sort of word game is something we need to worry too much about. The terms being fixed from the start is something covered by the "fair" dealing rules even if making sure that the other party understands them isn't.

As long as we are very clear about what we're getting into sudden changes in word definition would constitute a breach of contract.

Aye, and that goes for all of them (save probably the money option, but I don't know for certain); this would be an awful time to get screwed over, shafted, or otherwise taken advantage of, but I'm not sure whether we can afford not to call upon them…

I think knowledge, battle, and access to the realm have already been covered as to how issues might arise, but even for crafting… if he considers/claims our works to not only be insufficient, but insufficient due to us deliberately shortchanging him, he could well demand more from us as compensation.
Hell, even for the money option, since we got the additional point of credit from our socials, he could claim that we did so through trickery of some sort, and demand restitution.
The definition of good enough is something to look out for, but I wouldn't worry about hard numbers getting screwy. Gard is an authorized agent for him, if she makes bad deals that's his problem and we can hold him to his word. The rules aren't always fun, but they do go both ways.

He's also wealthy enough that he doesn't stand to profit much from being petty about a hundred thousand dollars or so.

turning back to crafting, I think that one is reasonably safe as long as we don't pass off a lemon or specifically piss him off before we make our final payment.

There's only so much he can squeeze for there, and worst comes to worse we could use the crown to find what they already use and buy him a new one. Hard to refute that something he purchases himself isn't good enough for his own troops to use.

That would constitute getting too cheeky for our own good though, so it'd be a bad idea to do is as anything but our second to last escalation*.

*The last being trying to get a neutral arbiter or something.
Note that in ExWoD it's possible to mess with Exaltations in ways impossible in Exalted.
In ExWoD with proper mages in it yes, but we don't have those. DF magic is being modeled that way, but wizards aren't reality warpers of anything like the type WoD mages are. All the stuff in the book on that is given in terms of letting mages, the nascent demiurges fighting the ascension war that they are, keep that theme.

Regular spirits and gods don't have that same potential, and don't operate on the same IC mechanics.

The Akuma are pretty hard core, but I don't buy them being fundamentally capable of trying the same things as an archmage with a minimum of 5 dots each in at least 3 spheres working a major ritual.
 
Note that in ExWoD it's possible to mess with Exaltations in ways impossible in Exalted.
And that is the result of Holden deciding that WoD metaphysics get to override everything Exalted, despite it absolutely contradicting core principles of Exalted. DP isn't bound to operate on "No you aren't actually allowed to change the setting in an actually significant way" like Holden.
The Wan Kuei should be able to see the cyber-devils as well.
Lifesight requires the expenditure of chi and deliberate concentration to even attempt to notice spirits, then they still have to roll against [gauntlet + 2] difficulty, they generally aren't going to spot spirits unless they are expecting them and put in significant effort.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Mar 14, 2023 at 12:28 AM, finished with 164 posts and 33 votes.

  • [X]Plan Sledgehammer
    -[X]Offer: 9 points
    --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success)
    --[X]Aid Monoc Security in one battle of their choice[Lydia + Molly together]: 4 Points
    --[X] Forging baneful weapons for his einherjar 1 point
    --[X] Crafting vehicles worthy to carry them in battle in this age of iron and flame 2 points
    -[X]Receive: 9 points
    -[X] A rune-caster 2 points
    -[X][Valkyries] Gard herself 3 points
    -[X][Einherjar] Frontline squad 1 point (5 Riflemen): x3
    -[X][Einherjar] Heavy squad 1 point (1 Heavy Machine Gunner and 1 Mortal Team): x1
    [X] Plan Brass Tacks
    -[X] Offer:
    —[X] Money 2 points
    -[X] Receive:
    —[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
    -[X] A rune-caster 2 points
    [X] Plan The forges of war
    -[X] Offer:
    --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success)
    --[X] Your skillful craft in:
    ---[X] Forging baneful weapons for his einherjar 1 point
    ---[X] Crafting vehicles worthy to carry them in battle in this age of iron and flame 2 points
    -[X] Receive:
    --[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
    ---[X] 2X A warrior 1 Point
    ---[X] A rune-caster 2 points
    --[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times)
    ---[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
    [X]Plan Green fire
    -[x]Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success)
    -[X] Share your wisdom regarding
    --[X] The flame that burns upon your blade 3 points
    -[x] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
    --[x] 3 warriors 3 Point
    --[X] A rune-caster 2 points
    [X] Into Battle We Ride...
    [X] Plan Minimum AP
    -[X] Offer:
    --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success)
    --[X]Aid Monoc Security in one battle of their choice[Lydia + Molly together]: 4 Points
    -[X] Assistance
    —[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
    —-[X] A rune-caster 2 points
    —-[X] Gard herself 3 points
    —[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times)
    —-[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
 
Arc 6 Post 20: A Host Assembled
A Host Assembled

3nd of October 2006 A.D.

Click. Clippy mutes the conversation, a precipice of sound that opens into a pit of silence.

"Are you sure about this Lydia?" The question feels different from any you have asked before, it's not just asking her to come into battle with you, dangerous as that may be, it is asking her to take your hand and jump off the proverbial cliff of isolation into the murky currents of debt and conflict centuries, millennia in the making.I could just offer two favors, you think or start to as the moment stretches.

"I'm sure, we are stronger together than we are alone, and not just when it comes to fighting," your friend replies.

She's right, you realize with a jolt, both of you are children of the new millennium, no matter how different your parents or the places you had been raised, compared to the hoary old powers of the world the two of you are far more alike than not.

You sneak a peak at your father and promptly wish you hadn't. He looks as worried as you have ever seen him. When dad has that look on his face it usually means he is up and about, talking to people, doing things. but there is nothing he can do here, nothing he can say that his conscience would allow.

"It's going to be OK dad." It's not a lie if you believe it and you are going to make yourself believe it.

"I know it will sweetheart," he says quietly, putting a hand on your shoulder.

So strengthened by kith and kin alike when Clippy's speakers come back in your negotiate with conviction. In exchange for weapons and vehicles wrought with all your craft and skill as well as aid in one battle with Lydia at your side twenty of the Einherjaren with Gard herself at their head shall earn their mead this day in battle against the servants of Kakuri.

"So..." You start at the word, having almost forgotten that Detective Murphy was in the room, though from her stony expression she had not missed any word that had been said. "Am I just supposed to ignore than a couple of teenagers just offered to do mercenary work in exchange for twenty people with illegal weapons shooting up South Works."

"These aren't thugs with guns Lieutenant, they have been doing this for longer than anyone in this room has been alive, maybe for longer than the United States had been around. If they were in the habit of 'shooting up' places you would have heard about them doing it no?"

"As I have been informed recently a lot of higher ups in the government have a vested interest in covering up the supernatural," she counters.

"So they do, but it takes two to tango and Donar Vadderung is a very good dancer. If I were the sort of make bets I'd call it a fair one that there is some law, some permit, some technicality that says Monoc Securities is allowed to shoot mortars, even if it is a hundred years old and buried so deep it would take a team of lawyers a week's expedition into the bowels of bureaucracy to find it."

A sound somewhere between annoyed huff and reluctant laughter passes her lips. "We will be clearing the area around South Works first."

"That is why I thought of asking Gard to help..." It is in the middle of this explanation of warding that Daniel comes down, probably woken up by Hank earlier to what must be an odd tableau: you and dad in armor black and shining standing side by side on the other side of the table to Brother Divsimar, his robes as free of creases as his face is of worry, Lieutenant Murphy in CPD tagged body armor, Harry pacing nervously, his long strides carrying him across the room and back all too quickly, but it is unsurprisingly to Lydia that his eyes go first.

"What are you...?"

"Going to battle, wish me luck," she offers with a lightness behind which you do not think anyone else cam hear the strain.

"I think a kiss is traditional," you tease, wishing your own smile could be genuine at their sudden flush and the stammering that follows, wishing that you could go out with a light heart and not one heavy with the weight of fifteen captives whom you had promised to protect and failed. Soon enough all of you pie back into the car, police cars in front and behind you as mom and Daniel watch you drive away into the night.

As you drive down the I90 four black vans merge with your improvised convoy, No markings betray their origins, though you would odds are very good they would weigh a lot more than they aught if anyone would check and the tinted windows are bullet-proof.

"Sunrise in forty minutes," Clippy announces as the Jaslin Hotel slides into view again, its brown brick facade and trendy white on black sign with a red ideogram next to it just camouflage for what and who you know linger within.


"Is Lady Eiko still in?" you ask pulling yourself out of the cup of bleach, slightly more energetic than you had been before.

Gain 1 Essence -> Now at 7/12

"She has not passed by any of the hotel's security cameras," comes the prompt reply.

"You know that's creepy, right?" Harry asks offhandedly.

"Useful though," you shrug. "So anyone want to come with to see if I can tempt her over to our side, or at least the side of not helping Kakuri's Will?"

Dad offers to help of course, willing to offer a chance at redemption to anyone who might take it as is Brother Divsimar, though he is obviously less sanguine about it actually working, focused more on how to deal with the fallout should a fight break out. Harry is even more skeptical of the whole thing, having read up enough about akuma to classify them firmly under 'more trouble than they are worth to talk to'... but he knows enough about the company he's in to only give a mild grumble.

"What kind of ally would I be if I let you go talk someone this dangerous while I wait in the car, like a little kid at the supermarket," Lydia pipes up, humor wrapped around a deadly earnest core.

"We I can shoot her if she does anything funny, but I don't think you are going to be lacking for guns," Murphy says motioning out the window where a dozen or so tough looking men, in heavy leather some bearded, most of them scarred. Somewhat to your initial surprise not all of them have the typical look of a 'viking warrior'. Two of them are black, one looks vaguely Middle Eastern and one has a cast of features that brings to mind Central Asia. Whether they had gone on long and perilous journeys in times of yore or hand been offered a seat in Odin's hall in more recent days you could not say and it matters little in the end. All of them look tough enough to chew iron and spit nails as they subtly set up a perimeter... well as subtly as what looks like a roving Hell's Angels convention can.

Gard offers to come with you as well, though she cautions that you cannot make any use of her presence to imply that Monoc or its CEO are politically backing you besides providing services... up to and including shooting the akuma in the face if it should come to it.

Who do you take with you to meet with Lady Eiko?

[] Your father, Michael Carpenter, Knight of the Cross

[] Brother Divsimar, skilled Shih Master

[] Harry Dresden, Warden of Chicago

[] Lydia, Daughter of Arwan, Once King of the Underworld

[] Karin Murphy, head of Special Investigations

[] Sigrun Gard, Chooser of the Slain

[] Write in


OOC: You can of course take more than one person, the vote is structured like this to offer a short-hand for what each of them imply about your negotiating position if you choose them.
 
Lydia should probably be there for any encounter with the Akuma, since her spirit killer explicitly works on vampires. Even if MiM ends up being a picky eater we can still make sure none of them walk out with their souls intact.

… also for not-spite reasons that don't sound nearly as bad when written out like that. Give me a moment and I'll think of some. :V
 
I mean, from my perspective this is only half an attempt to flip them. Their options are flip or die. Either way, they're not backing the Will up, this just gives them a chance at a better option for that.
 
I fine with this vote because if he calls us to a fight that is too difficult, we can just say no.


Also we need to buy the antishaping charm the next round, we can't allow debts to be used against us Mystically.
 
[X] Lydia, Daughter of Arwan, Once King of the Underworld
[X] Brother Divsimar, skilled Shih Master
[X] Sigrun Gard, Chooser of the Slain

Ok, reasoning:
1) Not Michael - they know about him, and are dismissive of his ability to "protect us". Bringing him with us would be seen as hiding behind him, and they don't consider this an effective defense to boot. It would undermine our negotiating position.
2) Not Harry - mortal, overprotective of us, not a good negotiator at this point of time, unlikely to be considered an authority by wan kuei
3) Not Murphy - same reason as Harry, basically.
4) Gard - she's here on our dime. This is a flex of "we can call upon mighty forces you didn't know we could call upon" variety. If Gard is here, at our call, who else can we call? Would the Queen of Winter come if we but utter her name thrice? What other pacts and alliances are we a signatory of that they don't know about? It would be good to keep them unbalanced. Also, Gard has Intellectus in regards to honored dead. At least some wan kuei might qualify. Certainly a number of their victims would. That's an advantage in any negotiation.
5) Lydia - she's our circlemate. Enough said. We are stronger together, more than the sum of our parts.
6) Brother Divisimar - this one is arguable, but he's an expert on the subject. I might switch him to Michael if persuaded.
 
I fine with this vote because if he calls us to a fight that is too difficult, we can just say no.


Also we need to buy the antishaping charm the next round, we can't allow debts to be used against us Mystically.
This is a bad approach to take. Your credit score isn't mystically binding, but screwing it up will make your life hell.

The supernatural world heavily punishes breaking promises, and earning trust back once you've broken faith once is nearly impossible.

That's not even getting into repo men from Odin, and the consequences of not being able to call on him or anyone like him to bail us out if we need it again.

We've made our bed, now we have to lie in it.
 
1) Not Michael - they know about him, and are dismissive of his ability to "protect us". Bringing him with us would be seen as hiding behind him, and they don't consider this an effective defense to boot. It would undermine our negotiating position.
I agree this looks like hiding, but I'm skeptical of their bravado here. The knights of the cross, in the right time and place, can kill things that even the Yama Kings have to step lightly around. They don't always win, and as far as they know he isn't properly on the clock right now, but nobody laughs those guys off.

It's just posturing while they try to rules lawyer their way around getting stabbed with the physical vessel of a (minor) Celestine.
 
I agree this looks like hiding, but I'm skeptical of their bravado here. The knights of the cross, in the right time and place, can kill things that even the Yama Kings have to step lightly around. They don't always win, and as far as they know he isn't properly on the clock right now, but nobody laughs those guys off.

It's just posturing while they try to rules lawyer their way around getting stabbed with the physical vessel of a (minor) Celestine.
MIchael would be a terrific asset in a fight. In a negotiation with "flip or die", however, he paradoxically decreases the chances of "flip" option being taken. At least in my opinion.
 
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