The issue with offering to help in a fight is that it opens us to way too many complications. It's easy to game such a situation to leave Molly in debt to Odin coming out of it. Monoc securities does work with criminal elements. So, it would be easy to involve Molly in a crime, getting Odin and Marcone blackmail on her. Or they could give us "Enemy: Summer Court" background by involving us in an attack on a summer operation. Or other stuff. This is way too open ended.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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Hard no to offering to fight. That is way to easy to game, and can create lot of unintended consequences even if they don't. And frankly we don't need much support, just go in and kill everyone that fight back.
I think you are really underplaying the yama kings here.
Them being taken down by the wan keui isn't mark against them. We know 3 bodhisattva are enough to stalemate an antiduvelian. Something that could look at everything seen in dresden verse and laugh at them.
So a bodhisattva killing a wama king isn't a bad feat. It would kill the naagloshii just as easily.
I think the thing to remember about the Jade Court is that they are more like wizards than most other supernatural factions. So they can, with the right prep work and the right circumstances punch way way above the weight class of most of their peers. Molly suspects that there are some bodhisattvas out there who could fight Nocodemus to a standstill, but that does not mean all of them can, or even most. You would have to be a specialist in not just combat but combating the unholy
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[X] Plan Brass Tacks
We already have enough to win, and we want the message to get out that you don't want to mess with our people because of how powerful we are. We want them to fear our Shintai, not our ability to make deals.
Granted, some of this I would be willing to give Odin later, but in exchange for stuff more permanent than aid in a single fight. Let's wait to see what we can get in an actual meeting.
We already have enough to win, and we want the message to get out that you don't want to mess with our people because of how powerful we are. We want them to fear our Shintai, not our ability to make deals.
Granted, some of this I would be willing to give Odin later, but in exchange for stuff more permanent than aid in a single fight. Let's wait to see what we can get in an actual meeting.
1) This is now a hostage rescue operation in addition to a punitive one, as opposed to the straight up fight it was before.
Our experience with Cindy and Lydia's rescue a couple arcs ago makes it clear there will probably be magic involved in the imprisonment of our minions, in addition to a jailer or jailers.
The 4 points from giving a single Molly + Lydia marker pays for a rune-caster + 2 squads to maximize their chance of survival.
I dont want to have to choose between the greater akuma getting away or saving our people or preserving the lives of our warparty.
The way we had to let Corpsetaker get away the first time, or the way EvilBob got away.
I want that akuma dead and Emma-O out one greater servitor for pulling this shit as a deterrent againsr further adventures.
If everyone thinks there's a risk of losing an arm for poking, there will be fewer pokes,
Thats the practical argument.
The thematic argument is straight forward:
Molly being willing to put herself on the line for people she takes responsibility for. Thats an argument that resonates strongly for the god who, according to Butcher, used to enforce guest-right in Norse society.
Itself a signal to Odin about how importantly Molly takes her responsibility for her people, and how she'll react to attacks on them. Thats in itself a message to the greater supernatural society via a connected man who talks to people as diverse as Mab, the Erl King and Uriel about how she'll react to people targetting her people.
2)I am banking on Odin's self interest here.
If he's willing to take products in kind from us, like weapons and vehicles that his people will use, he's not interested in fucking us in case we can fuck him back through those items. See how the Summer Court were able to track Dresden and Morgan via gifts given to them as honors.
He is not likely to burn a favor in a way that makes an enemy of the person.
Mab herself only arranged to screw Nicodemus on her debt when he went out of his way to screw her first with the Accords breach.
3)Then there's his, Odin's, reputation to consider.
Using magical mercenary work as a cover for foreign policy requires that people trust that their dealings with you are honest and in good faith, and that you wont find a loophole to fuck them. Thats how you see Gard being trusted with physical samples of major members of Marcone's organization.
Thats how the Einherjar and Valkyries have been trusted to do merc work by everyone from Marcone to the Lara Raith-run White Court after Cold Days.
See Odin's characterization by Butcher for fair dealing. I quote:
Thats how Butcher writes Odin. Keep that in mind.Word of Jim on Odin said:
-Mercenaries in particular need a reputation for fair dealing if they are to be trusted.
Dude did not spend several millenia fostering one for good-faith dealing in order order to burn it on making an enemy of an Infernal Exalt. Odin's not stupid.
And frankly, he's not likely to risk a favor on a fight that he isnt committing his own people to.
- Odin does not need an Infernal Exalt for mundane crime. And we literally can make evidence for criminal activity disappear if we so choose; Night Swallows Secrets is 2 dots/8xp. If he was inclined to attempt to fuck us with via the human legal system , he'd simply stage something and fake the evidence instead of trying to make us do it by burning a 4 point favor.
And it would be stupid. The All-Father doesnt do stupid.
-Odin calling us for backup means he has to trust we wont screw him.
See what happened in Cold Days when Nicodemus called Mab for a debt she owed him and Anduriel, and she arranged to fuck him with it. HARD.
This sort of trust goes both ways,
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Frankly I doubt any of them are hostages, either they where killed or got away. And even if some where taken hostage Ghouls are not worth going into debt over, they are they are the off brand mooks in Dresden.
As far as their demon-phones are able to tell, no one but Adam has been killed yet .
No we dont. We dont have enough to ensure the survival of our people.
This is no longer a fight where we win by killing or driving off the akuma, its a hostage rescue mission where substantial losses among our minions is a failure condition.
Its no comfort if we kill the akuma and lose our minions.
Its of no reassurance to Cauldron that we can protect them if all the Jade Dogs die in the process because we were focused on killing the akuma.
It wont make people more comfortable about dealing with us that their killer will die; they'd rather be saved in the first place.
This is as much a reputation as it is an ethical thing.
And people will be paying attention to how we handle it.
Its literally written in the second to last update that the akuma were taking prisoners.
Did you read the update at all?
Ghouls are not worth going into debt over?
Not only is that frankly racist, its straight up in variance to the character that we've been playing.
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Alright, I'm convinced.
[x] uju32
[x] uju32
I dont agree.
Note that I didnt say a bodhisattva killed a Yama King, I said lesser Wan Kuei crippled one by cutting off his power, leading to his death and the destruction of his Hell. And another was crippled by a single hengeyokai infiltrating his Hell and setting it on fire. A third was eaten by an archmage. I am not aware of any canon fights between a bodhisattva or arhat and a Yama King.
(Note that Ravana of Lanka and the Ravnos Antediluvian share the same name, but there's no evidence they're the same person)
Yama Kings are powerful in their domain and themes, just like the Red Court is powerful in the heart of their territory, but its situational. The same Yama Queen whose avatar got killed by a Wan Xian later lured that Wan Xian into a Hell and fucked him and his army up comprehensively.
But if you cut the power cord, remove the battery, they deflate like a punctured balloon, or a depowered tpy.
Thats what all the fighting for souls and control of Dragon Lines and territory is about; thats where the vast majority of their power comes from.
Anomalies like the Wandering Overlord excluded, of course. We dont know anything about that one.
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A bodhisattva vs a naagloshii? 1v1? Yeah, I'd give this to the naagloshii.
And fairly easily too; the naagloshii has the advantage in speed and flight and endurance and magic and limited number of vulnerabilities. Its not the contemptuous punking that a naagloshii would mete out to greater akuma(in my opinion), but I dont think the outcome would be much in doubt.
But thats just my opinion, of course. Take it as you will.
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[X] Plan Minimum AP
- [X] Offer
--[X]Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success)
--[X]Aid Monoc Security in one battle of their choice[Lydia + Molly together]: 4 Points
- [X] Assistance
—[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
—-[X] A rune-caster 2 points
—-[X] Gard herself 3 points
—[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times)
—-[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
- [X] Offer
--[X]Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success)
--[X]Aid Monoc Security in one battle of their choice[Lydia + Molly together]: 4 Points
- [X] Assistance
—[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
—-[X] A rune-caster 2 points
—-[X] Gard herself 3 points
—[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times)
—-[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
You think a naagloshii would beat a bodhisattva. The ones that could fight an antediluvians.
You know what, stat the naagloshii(i mean lets compare what abilities theh have, not give them numerical stats). Lets see what you think they have that can protect them from 20 agg a turn by a Destined Hero. Someone that could easily summon or binds spirits custom designed to counter its shapeshiftng, or one who could literally warp its flesh against it because wan keui can warp flesh too. It definitely doesn't have advantage in speed or flight or endurance. A boddhitsava could literally drain it of all ita chi, you know the limited store of power that it drains constantly out of its territory.
Its a minor shapeshifting demigod, its not nearly even in the same league as an Anti or even a methuslah like ur shulgi. Amd arhats are peers of those.
"Minor". Its a naagloshii.
It has intellectus. Demonreach has intellectus limited to the island and its a critical advantage for its warden, enought to allow Dresden actually engage a naagloshii. Mab doesnt have intellectus as far as we know; neither does Titania. Or Kringle. Or the Erl King. Or the Fallen.
You have to step up to the Mothers and loyalist angels and archangels to find non-geographically limited intellectus.
In my opinion?
There's precisely one vampire/vampire-like thing in this setting that would be playing in the same weight class as the Antediluvians of canon WoD or better. Thats Drakul. Drakul himself, not his son Dracula.
And Drakul is Serious Business, even with his (alleged)vulnerabilities as something like a Black.
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Its intellectlus doesn't mean it can beat a person in a fight, all naagloshii we know have been beaten. Mostly by mortal mages at that.
So its a minor advantage at best. Definitely not enough to overcome every other advantage that arahat would have.
Also, an anti killed 300 million people when it awoken, it ate an entire country. In one of the scenarios one absorbed all of humanity and another joined into earth.
Drakul isn't not even close.
The things in the same weight class is the mothers and maybe the dragons.
I must say, I can't agree less:
Kindred of the East Companion page 75 said:
Time of Judgement Ascension page 211 said:
Time of Judgement Ascension page 212 said:
If Ravanos, even in a blood-maddened state; could not be unwounded by a lesser version of this. What chance does an explicitly weaker creature have?
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Yes, minor. Cosmologically and lore-wise it's a valkyrie equivalent - a messenger of gods sent to interact with mortals. Who, it wouldn't surprise me at all, also might have topic-limited Intellectus ("Choosers of the Sialn" was their job description, they have to have a way to judge someone's worth; and Gard was able to identify us as being "Outside Fate" on sight).
EDIT:
In fact, in quest Katrina Holt does seem like a direct analogue to a naagloshii, even having her own ability to consume magic users for power (black feast ritual).
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That is one exotic ability of questionable use in most scenarios.
Knowing how to best torture a person is potentially useful, but not exactly practical info in combat.
in general, a Naagloshii is a decently powerful spirit, but still just a minor god/ semidivine monster.
I suspect any Court's Elders could beat him, except for the White Court because they are the most human anyway and additionally Papa Raith was stupid enough to weaken the whole Court by his methods to avoid rivals to himself.
1) Yeah, and the mercs aren't exactly specialists in that. More people can be good, but I'm not convinced they're worth the expense. I also think you're banking way too much on playing social checkers and getting the thing you want out of it with Odin.
Will he read into it? Probably. Will he read what you're writing and not a half dozen other things that change his approach? Hard to tell because we don't know him.
2) Or all of this is intended to get samples of our work so he can learn how we function, and the value of the weapons is in what he learns about us from them.
It's also worth noting that the value systems of these older supernatural powers aren't necessarily congruent with ours. What he views as breaking faith isn't guaranteed to match what we think, and what he considers a good profit is in the same boat.
You could make a lot of similar arguments about how Mab should behave towards Harry, but she nonetheless does screw him over and still expects to get what she wants anyway.
This other stuff on Odin is window dressing; even being someone who likes mortals doesn't mean he's someone we can trust to look out for us when spending our markers.
At some point favor trading is an inevitable part of doing business, but I don't want to start while pressed for time and not firmly established enough to trade as an organization.
In order to know how "fair" Odin is in his dealings, I need only to look at the options offered:
That's for forever. Not a "year and a day". Not for a number of visits. Not even for a specified peple. All Odin's servants (a list which arguably includes ALL WINTER FAE) will be able to freely enter and leave our Domain, whatever it is. For 3 points. And even IC we have a feeling that Odin knows about our future Kingdom. While we don't. That's not just shortchanging us, that's classical fae word dickery meant to put us in perpetual position of weakness in regards to him. For 3 points, mind you. Which is equivalent of fighting for him once. So, on his balance sheet, eternal disadvantage is equal to one fight. So, yes, of course I expect him to try and get as much from one fight as he would from free passage into our soul, forever. So, yes, I expect him to entrap us somehow. He'd be stupid not to - we are an infernal exalt; binding us to him gives him an almost impossible advantage.
Do I even need to discuss this? He wants a host of his own exalted (and yes, I am fairly sure he'd be able to arrange appropriate hosts loyal to him). For a steal.
Based on just these two options and their costs, Odin is absolutely planning to short change us using our relative ignorance and high levels of desperation.
Supply and demand, he knows you are in a tight spot and so he is offering you a deal what is inclined in his direction, if the shoe was on the other foot the One Eye would expect you do do no less to him, he is fair honorable and wise, but also ruthless to a degree no mortal man could hope to match.