- Location
- Germany
Okay, I believe that Wan Kuei can become Shikome, but at the basic they aren't.
And by all we know these are still Wan Kuei, we recognise them as such, not as demons/spirits.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
And by all we know these are still Wan Kuei, we recognise them as such, not as demons/spirits.
Hmm, the vote is not what I would call close, but it is a pretty important one and I know there are more people than this watching. I think I am going to leave this up until tomorrow since it is a pretty important one. On the one hand this could get Murphy killed, but on the other if you involve her in this and it works out it will give you a hell of a line of trust with her.
1)Shikome have an intrinsic social power against male opposition.
They can canonically talk kueijin into going to watch the sun rise, where sunlight is fatal to them.
I dont think its reasonable to assume a mortal had much of a chance here.
2) The fact that Tuzi didnt have him hidden behind prayer scrolls suggests that he was grabbed near the beginning of this entire affair. Which is, I will remind you, less than three weeks old.
3)I dont think that follows.
In this story, consent obtained through deception was enough to give Corpsetaker control over Lydia, and she's an Exigent.
In Ghost Story, Corpsetaker demonstrated that consent gained through torture still counted for magical purposes.
In Exalted 2E, much the same thing is done with turning Solar Exalted to Abyssals in a Monstrance.
4)Im not saying it was made up out of whole cloth.
But its well within shikome capabilities to get you to pursue a desire that you would normally have the good sense to ignore.
For example?
Everyone wants to be wealthy and loved, but most people wont commit murder for it.
A shikome could talk you into that if they wanted to.
1)There is a lot of background planning by other people supporting Molly now.
Im not sure I see your point.
2)I think its an unwise presumption that the betrayers did not plan for being betrayed.
Especially given a two week head start.
This is not a situation where we're giving them preptime; they've already had it.
3)Because mass murder doesnt get them what they want.
But if they dont get what they want and arent going to anyway, lashing out as a punitive measure is very much in character for the rulers of Yomi Wan. Hence we really want to ensure this party cant do so.
Also, Molly's school doesnt run at night. Sunlight.
True, but not really relevant.
The first Wan Xian showed up in the Third Age of the Kindred cosmology.
They are all johnny come latelys, and mortal origin to boot.
No, Shikome ARE akuma. Wan Kuei/mortal souls sworn to a Yama King.
Their powers are mostly Wan Kuei powers. If you look at the stat block of the shikome in Thousand Hells, those are all Wan Kuei Disciplines.
EDIT
Eiko is Shikome. Emma-O wouldnt have sent anyone else; they're his signature.Stat block said:
Basically, all akuma are Wan Kuei, or other vampire types. Or used to be, depending on your PoV. Note how we greeted the akuma herald with a Wan Kuei greeting?
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The Wan Xian had transhuman intelligence and skill, a long history of warring with the Yama Kings, and connections with Heaven. They're the type of people who may have previously investigated the imprisoned Infernal Exaltations in detail.
There are also those Wan Xian who became Wan Kuei and then Yama Kings who may well also have researched them in detail.
- Location
- Germany
Yes, because this is a supplement to Kindred of the East that portrays monsters in terms of their abilities.
The Shikome and the other demons in the book are clearly not regular Wan Kuei (at least not anymore).
Objection: Conjecture.
There is no current evidence in this setting that there were ever multiple Exaltations in this setting. Or that the Wan Xian were around when any Exaltation was active.
To the contrary, given as the first Yama Kings predate Wan Xian and Emma-O is still ignorant despite having been around in 2000 BCE some four thousand years ago, I doubt they were any sort of contemporaries.
Furthermore?
Transhuman intelligence, assuming its true since I've never seen a Wan Xian stat block, still means very little for studying or getting information out of Exaltation. Just ask the elder Solars in Ex2 how much it helped.
Or even better, ask the Yozi and their 3CDs.
Without the power and senses/infrastructure, none of that has appeared to work before.
The only evidence of age we have in this setting is Gard stating that her resources, and those of Monoc behind her can find no data.
Which suggests we're straight out of prehistory, or potentially another universe.
Or someone did a very thorough sanitization of recorded history.
When they benchmark non-akuma monsters/demons to Kindred in Thousand Hells, they use the term (Equivalent)Discipline.
Look at the stat blocks for Shikome Assassins, Raksha of Ravana and Shinjuku Undercity Scavengers; they all have Disciplines, indicating they are/were Wan Kuei or similar mortal origin.
All the other entities with stat blocks in Thousand Hells have (Equivalent) Disciplines, differentiating them as non-mortal in origin.
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Im going to make an appeal to the fence sitters, and people voting for the other option:
This is outright stated to potentially get Karrin Murphy killed.
Which has Consequences with regards to losing us our current law enforcement contact, as well as some of our other relationships like Dresden.
We dont need her here. She has no need to know at this time.
We can buy or otherwise trade for some of Gard's Anti-Muggle wards to keep civilians away. Word of QM.
This is not a situation that warrants risking her life, or that of her officers.
Please reconsider your votes.
Word of QM said:
This is outright stated to potentially get Karrin Murphy killed.
Which has Consequences with regards to losing us our current law enforcement contact, as well as some of our other relationships like Dresden.
We dont need her here. She has no need to know at this time.
We can buy or otherwise trade for some of Gard's Anti-Muggle wards to keep civilians away. Word of QM.
This is not a situation that warrants risking her life, or that of her officers.
Please reconsider your votes.
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[X] No, its too dangerous
'Night guys, see you all tomorrow as we move towards the endgame of the hunt.
You're right, I reconsidered:
[X] Yes, you would need her authority to clear up bystanders
And I stand by my choice. Do not presume people voted for this option in ignorance of the risks. The fact that it could be dangerous for her has been pointed out right after the update. People still voted for it.
Yes. And Karrin Murphy is an active police officer whose job it is to investigate the weird cases. Right now, she and others of her department are investigating the shaman murders directly connected to the akuma being in town. She at the very least, should be made aware of what is going on, if only to know how to avoid being killed. If, after learning what is happening, and what we are up against, she, as an adult sane and professional law enforcer decides to take direct part in the events... She knows what she is signing up for. We'll do our best to make sure she does not end up dead or crippled, but as a police officer, there are always risks.
Argue from need to know basis, not from "it's dangerous for her" basis - to do otherwise would be to infantilize Murphy way too much. The need to know can be argued, yes. I think that, strategically, she needs to be briefed, if we are to maintain good and constructive relationship with SI department, and to make them better than they are. While tactically she and hers don't bring much to the table, strategically they might. And they can still handle the fallout.
Eh. If he's useful I don't care, but nothing you've said has convinced me to care about what happens to him for other reasons.
An interesting point of comparison here is how Dresden ended up with Lash in his head. The denarians drove by Micheal's place and tossed a coin on the sidewalk just in front of where little Harry was standing. Dresden himself was closest, and possibly the only one to immediately notice, so he slaps his hand down on it to stop the toddler from grabbing the ebony object.
For a significant period of time the narrative treats it as a necessary sacrifice, something he had no choice but to do. Until he's talking about it with someone else and they ask him why he didn't pick up the kid instead.
As is explored more throughly past that point saving the kid was a reason he acted, but not the reason he picked it up. For a moment when he saw it part of him wanted the power, so he took it.
I think something is in play here. The threats
were likely a factor, but this is the reason:
Before and above the rest, because the crown isn't an evil genie.
These situations are complicated convergences of factors, the past is a good guideline but superficial comparison shouldn't be taken as ironclad law. Isabella in particular was an opportunistic hire we stumbled backwards into anyway, so taking the lesson "don't do that again without cause" is perfectly valid.
The ghouls had no choice; alone they can't become something different. They do have responsibility for what they do with those desires, but there is a difference there.
J is a mortal, he has a choice. It's not always a good one, and it's not always one you want to take, but what he's doing is a value judgement in which he places others lives below his interests.
I don't consider him that much worse than our other minions, but I do think that element makes him more culpable in a few ways.
To be honest it feels like half your position changes two posts or so into this, which makes it feel disjointed and unconvincing on a rhetorical level.
1-2 have some credibility, but I think it's a mistake to implicitly assume mortals have no agency. We've seen that not to be the case repeatedly in this quest.
3) Getting tricked into consenting isn't the same as actively being involved. See how Mathews wasn't turned into a drone until after he rebelled and they had no other practical choice. If he could be totally beguiled and also do what they want him to, why would they share anything real at all?
4) Fair enough, though I think we need more information to really judge how far this went.
1) Not like what the summer lady was doing for Dresden, or many of those other cases. We're doing the heavy lifting here.
2) So we're assuming that they're competent enough planners that their backup plan is dangerous to poke, but their primary killbox is fine because they're uniformed and arrogant?
3) Still doesn't explain why they would do this if they had a perfect read on Molly's life. A death threat by formal letter a few days in advance is asking for trouble that introducing yourself by taking hostages and demanding on the spot compliance doesn't.
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On the vote itself, didn't we have this conversation around this chapter in regards to the Naagloshi?
With the conclusion mostly being that Murphy was a grown woman who can make her own choices and generally recognizes when she's in over her head? What changed?
[X] Yes, you would need her authority to clear up bystanders
- Location
- florida
I don't think i could have made you care anyway.
I am arguing so molly isn't a hypocrite like viserys was.
I disagree, threats made under coercion aren't really worth anything.
No she wasn't, thats my point.
If you want to redeem people, you can only redeem bad people or people that have made mistakes.
You can't exactly redeem an upstanding citizien.
I want to redeem villians, my point of comparison is that we have already made choice of redeeming people that made bad choice, we should balk here.
His choice was serve or die. Its literally just coercion by a super natural manipulator.
Do you think molly can't convince a good person to go bad with her absurd socials. Because its the same situation but accelerated.
You just keep misreading me.
- Location
- florida
There's the spectre of arguments past.
I remember arguing this exact thing with viserys yeah, and remember other doing it as well.
Let's not and say we did; there's no value in digging up salt that isn't even relevant to this quest.
I had more written up for this, but it honestly wasn't very polite and we're already being pretty circular anyway. How about we put a pin in it until we know more?
In ExWoD; the reason that the Infernal Exaltations have hellish themes (and vice versa), is that they've been buried deep beneath the various Hells.
The fact that we can learn non-Kakuri charms strongly suggests that there are infernal exaltations buried beneath the other hells as well.
As for age, early Yama King who would predate the wan Cian back well before 2000 BC. The fourth age began before 1000BC, and the third age lasted several thousand years after the Wan Xian were created.
We're probably looking at something like 5000BC for Tou Mou becoming a Yama King, and she's have existed back in the second age in the thousands of years before she went bad.
Shikome are explicitly akuma though. Other demons aren't but the shikome are.
- Location
- florida
Thank you.
I appreciate the restrain.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I really wish we had the inner darkness unchained charm. Murphy could use a power up. Then again she likely wouldn't accept the offer if we made it right now especially when we mention that it includes her becoming our minion. Well becoming our minion isn't required, but it is heavily recommended.