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Rosario and Joestar

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Thozmp said:
I don't know, this seems like exactly the kind of thing to hand over to the headmaster. Like, more then anything else, the time Jojo and Tsukune and the others spend here is finite, 3 years mostly, and implementing any kind of lasting policy, lasting change is something the administration has got to do. Otherwise it is still "The Strongest makes the rules."
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If the Headmaster decides differently, not much we can do anyway. But this is about our decision right now. No point in any waffling.

[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?

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FourthPear said:
[X]In so many other circumstances, you might agree with Tsukune... but Kuyo was right in that most people aren't so quick to change who they really are. Is teaching the student body a valuable lesson in compassion really more important than making sure that Kuyo won't be able to come back and claim revenge again?



Some people deserve to die to keep the public safe. People like Kuyo, who have far surpassed deserving any form of redemption.



Why does he deserve to live, when the dozens of people he horrifically murdered died screaming? How much good could he possibly do for the world, if he even bothered to change, to even begin making up for all the lives he has stomped out?



Scum like Kuyo only know how to respond to fear, and thus he needs to send a message to all the other worthless fucks that their atrocities will not be tolerated! That THEY won't just get a smack on the bottom and be sent to their rooms!



People who have done far less than Kuyo have deserved to die, why does HE get to live!? Spare his underlings, if you want to preach about mercy like a gutless faux-pacifist!
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Oh, Kuyo should definitely be held accountable. And he will be. He's been beaten in every other way and he'll likely be confined and under watch. Right now he's not a risk and he won't be in the foreseeable future. If he ever becomes one again we'll put him down if we must to save others.

But let's make his defeat complete in beating his ideas. We don't need to execute him and doing so out of fear of what he might do or for revenge just helps to partly vindicate him.

If he admits he's wrong, and actually wants to repent, he'll have a long way to go. But any hope of things or someone being better ends when they're dead.
 
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[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
-[X]...and it's not like there's not a higher authority who can't do the execution for you. Leave it to the Headmaster to decided whether this scum lives or dies.

FourthPear said:
People who have done far less than Kuyo have deserved to die, why does HE get to live!? Spare his underlings, if you want to preach about mercy like a gutless faux-pacifist!
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"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
 
[]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
-[]...and it's not like there's not a higher authority who can't do the execution for you. Leave it to the Headmaster to decided whether this scum lives or dies.
I like this write in. When Tsukune came in, I thought he had a stand for a second that could reform itself into different configurations for a sec. Though I agree that Kuyo has to die
[X]In so many other circumstances, you might agree with Tsukune... but Kuyo was right in that most people aren't so quick to change who they really are. Is teaching the student body a valuable lesson in compassion really more important than making sure that Kuyo won't be able to come back and claim revenge again?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?

More then anything else, the invisitext convinced me to go for this.
 
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Nottheunmaker said:
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?

More then anything else, the invisitext convinced me to go for this.
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Yep. Kuyo is already starting to realize he's the one in the wrong. Not doing what he would do in this situation will nail that in for him and everyone watching.
 
Finagle007 said:
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
-[X]...and it's not like there's not a higher authority who can't do the execution for you. Leave it to the Headmaster to decided whether this scum lives or dies.



"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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I just said to give it to him, so your quote falls flat. Kill him.
spudman said:
If the Headmaster decides differently, not much we can do anyway. But this is about our decision right now. No point in any waffling.

[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?

Edit:



Oh, Kuyo should definitely be held accountable. And he will be. He's been beaten in every other way and he'll likely be confined and under watch. Right now he's not a risk and he won't be in the foreseeable future. If he ever becomes one again we'll put him down if we must to save others.

But let's make his defeat complete in beating his ideas. We don't need to execute him and doing so out of fear of what he might do or for revenge just helps to partly vindicate him.

If he admits he's wrong, and actually wants to repent, he'll have a long way to go. But any hope of things or someone being better ends when they're dead.
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Why does Kuyo deserve the chance to be better?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
-[X]...and it's not like there's not a higher authority who can't do the execution for you. Leave it to the Headmaster to decided whether this scum lives or dies.
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?


It's the right thing to do. If we're ever going to fix this damn school it has to be done right.

Everyone gets one second chance . He comes back and tries again then we rip out his spine
 
FourthPear said:
Why does Kuyo deserve the chance to be better?
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Because it explicitly is setting an example for the future. Because killing him reinforces the dog-eat-dog attitude so many monsters possess. Because the repercussions of this choice are so much bigger then this one monster. Because however large a body count he racked up will be nothing compared to the death that will continue in this school if nothing changes.

It's not that this one asshole somehow deserves to live. It's that everyone else deserves a better life.
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
FourthPear said:
I just said to give it to him, so your quote falls flat. Kill him.

Why does Kuyo deserve the chance to be better?
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So to have a chance to repent he has to earn it first? Somehow redeeming himself before he's actually redeemed?

That's not how it works. He hasn't earned anything in the eyes of society or his victims/their loved ones, and he can never undo the things he's done or the people he's hurt or killed. But it's not about him. It's about Tsukune, Jotaro, and all the others in the school not sinking to his level and killing out of fear or revenge masquerading as 'justice'.

So long as he's alive, there's a chance he can reflect and may realize what he's done is wrong. If he realizes that (and he's on his way to this already), then he can start to make amends for what he's done. Maybe, just maybe actually do some good. Then he's on his way to earning redemption.

I'm not saying don't make sure he can't hurt anyone during this. That's vital. And if he's sorry he's going to need to do more than simply saying that to make amends. This will likely involve some kind of confinement and/or being watched closely, maybe for the rest of his days if it's determined that's needed.

If he threatens people again, stop him, with whatever means necessary to protect others. Including lethal if need be.

But executing him now, when lives are not in danger, is Jotaro determining that Kuyo cannot ever earn redemption or do anything positive or good going forward. It's conceding Kuyo's point that people can't change. I don't think that's a good mindset for anyone.
 
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[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
spudman said:
So to have a chance to repent he has to earn it first? Somehow redeeming himself before he's actually redeemed?

That's not how it works. He hasn't earned anything in the eyes of society or his victims/their loved ones, and he can never undo the things he's done or the people he's hurt or killed. But it's not about him. It's about Tsukune, Jotaro, and all the others in the school not sinking to his level and killing out of fear or revenge masquerading as 'justice'.

So long as he's alive, there's a chance he can reflect and may realize what he's done is wrong. If he realizes that (and he's on his way to this already), then he can start to make amends for what he's done. Maybe, just maybe actually do some good. Then he's on his way to earning redemption.

I'm not saying don't make sure he can't hurt anyone during this. That's vital. And if he's sorry he's going to need to do more than simply saying that to make amends. This will likely involve some kind of confinement and/or being watched closely, maybe for the rest of his days if it's determined that's needed.

If he threatens people again, stop him, with whatever means necessary to protect others. Including lethal if need be.

But executing him now, when lives are not in danger, is Jotaro determining that Kuyo cannot ever earn redemption or do anything positive or good going forward. It's conceding Kuyo's point that people can't change. I don't think that's a good mindset for anyone.
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That is where we will never agree. Lives are priceless, and thus (paradoxically) have no inherent worth. The moment Kuyo took the lives of others with malice afore thought, he forfeited all right to salvation or redemption. To spare him is not right or good, it is only pissing on the graves of all he murdered.

If you spare someone like that, and they hurt even a single other person, that death is just as much your fault as there's. Is the MC going to babysit Kuyo forever to insure his good behavior? How can they truly keep him from killing again otherwise? What authority could they possibly trust to hold or restrain Kuyo when his mere continued existence prove they all silently permitted his evils to occur?

End this nightmare. Enact Justice, instead of false platitudes.

Nottheunmaker said:
Because it explicitly is setting an example for the future. Because killing him reinforces the dog-eat-dog attitude so many monsters possess. Because the repercussions of this choice are so much bigger then this one monster. Because however large a body count he racked up will be nothing compared to the death that will continue in this school if nothing changes.

It's not that this one asshole somehow deserves to live. It's that everyone else deserves a better life.
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And a mass-murder and torturer is who you want to be the flagship case of this new 'merciful' policy?

Where was his victims' mercy? Their Justice? And what of the people he will undoubtably savage and murder in the future? Will you condemn them with your own inaction and half-assed pacifism?

True mercy, true pacifism, is knowing when violence and death is necessary to preserve the lives of others. Spare one of the many attempted rapists in this cesspit of a school if you want your 'example.'
 
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[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
 
FourthPear said:
That is where we will never agree. Lives are priceless, and thus (paradoxically) have no inherent worth. The moment Kuyo took the lives of others with malice afore thought, he forfeited all right to salvation or redemption. To spare him is not right or good, it is only pissing on the graves of all he murdered.

If you spare someone like that, and they hurt even a single other person, that death is just as much your fault as there's. Is the MC going to babysit Kuyo forever to insure his good behavior? How can they truly keep him from killing again otherwise? What authority could they possibly trust to hold or restrain Kuyo when his mere continued existence prove they all silently permitted his evils to occur?

End this nightmare. Enact Justice, instead of false platitudes.


And a mass-murder and torturer is who you want to be the flagship case of this new 'merciful' policy?

Where was his victims' mercy? Their Justice? And what of the people he will undoubtably savage and murder in the future? Will you condemn them with your own inaction and half-assed pacifism?

True mercy, true pacifism, is knowing when violence and death is necessary to preserve the lives of others. Spare one of the many attempted rapists in this cesspit of a school if you want your 'example.'
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He's already apprehended. He's not a threat to anyone now. You're saying he should be executed because he might break out, and might kill somebody at some undefined hypothetical point later. That's not killing to protect anyone, that's killing out of fear.

If the Headmaster can't figure out a way to keep him confined/watched for as long as needed I bet the Speedwagon Foundation can figure something out.

The loved ones of Kuyo's victims might say his death is justice for them. But we don't let hurt parties just go and get payback themselves or decide the sentence (they can testify for sentencing, but they dont decide). And justice isn't strictly an eye for an eye. As the saying goes, that leaves the world blind.

if we go with your idea that somebody's life is forfeited the moment they take a life, where do we draw the line that it's okay for the state or any party to take that life?

Once a life is taken, it's gone. No potential to make amends, and no taking it back if the execution itself was wrongful for any reason.

And who is to say who 'deserves' the benefit of the doubt or the chance at redemption/to make amends? Who decides that? I don't think anyone could determine such things fairly 100% of the time.

Sometimes it's necessary to kill to preserve the lives of others, but that's not the case here. He's caught and again, killing him on the idea that he might do so again is killing him based on a hypothetical. One that isn't even strongly supported based on the fact we know he's already considering he was wrong.

If he kills again that's on him, nobody else. But I'd be for doing whatever we can to stop him, including lethal force if truly necessary.

If it wasn't clear before, I am against the death penalty. So I at least agree to disagree on this.
 
spudman said:
He's already apprehended. He's not a threat to anyone now. You're saying he should be executed because he might break out, and might kill somebody at some undefined hypothetical point later. That's not killing to protect anyone, that's killing out of fear.

If the Headmaster can't figure out a way to keep him confined/watched for as long as needed I bet the Speedwagon Foundation can figure something out.

The loved ones of Kuyo's victims might say his death is justice for them. But we don't let hurt parties just go and get payback themselves or decide the sentence (they can testify for sentencing, but they dont decide). And justice isn't strictly an eye for an eye. As the saying goes, that leaves the world blind.

if we go with your idea that somebody's life is forfeited the moment they take a life, where do we draw the line that it's okay for the state or any party to take that life?

Once a life is taken, it's gone. No potential to make amends, and no taking it back if the execution itself was wrongful for any reason.

And who is to say who 'deserves' the benefit of the doubt or the chance at redemption/to make amends? Who decides that? I don't think anyone could determine such things fairly 100% of the time.

Sometimes it's necessary to kill to preserve the lives of others, but that's not the case here. He's caught and again, killing him on the idea that he might do so again is killing him based on a hypothetical. One that isn't even strongly supported based on the fact we know he's already considering he was wrong.

If he kills again that's on him, nobody else. But I'd be for doing whatever we can to stop him, including lethal force if truly necessary.

If it wasn't clear before, I am against the death penalty. So I at least agree to disagree on this.
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No. If he kills again, that's on the fools who refused to punish him appropriately for his crimes. They are equally as culpable.

If it wasn't clear before, I am NOT against the death penalty. If you kill someone on accident, that doesn't mean you deserve to die or that you cannot make amends in your lifetime. If you are a rapist or mass murderer (like Kuyo), you need to be put down like the rabid animal you are.

If we will not agree on this, there is no point in continuing this conversation.
 
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[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
-[X]...and it's not like there's not a higher authority who can't do the execution for you. Leave it to the Headmaster to decided whether this scum lives or dies.
 
[X]You're not happy with letting Kuyo walk away from this. In fact, you despise the very idea. But with a cooler head, you have to admit that Tsukune has a point in that just putting him down like the mad dog he is in front of everyone like this will only reinforce the culture of fear he created. Is that really what's best for the students?
-[X] Make it clear to Tsukune in private that you stood with him to provide a united front but that if Kuyo comes back again, you will be taking him out for good this time.
 
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