Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
[X] BronzeTongue
[] Yzarc
[X] Yog
[X] Say goodbye
-[X] Offer training and equipment instead
-[X] STUNT: "Believe me. I know the feeling. I really do. I grew up with it, even. I won't provide a magical immediate solution right now, not when you are so angry and not thinking clearly. What I will provide, however, are the means. I'll talk to some people, arrange training in how to fight, provide equipment if you want it. And if, by Christmas, you still want to keep fighting, we'll discuss the topic again. I might have something by that time".
[] Yzarc
[X] Yog
[X] Say goodbye
-[X] Offer training and equipment instead
-[X] STUNT: "Believe me. I know the feeling. I really do. I grew up with it, even. I won't provide a magical immediate solution right now, not when you are so angry and not thinking clearly. What I will provide, however, are the means. I'll talk to some people, arrange training in how to fight, provide equipment if you want it. And if, by Christmas, you still want to keep fighting, we'll discuss the topic again. I might have something by that time".
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[X] Plan Authority is Asskicking
-[x] Molly: 27xp
-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
-[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
-[x] Molly: 27xp
-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
-[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
Seriously, fomori are cool and useful, and this is a very appropriate time to get it. I tried to add another purchase of Ox-Body in there because it works so well with all the soak we have, but I did not want to go all in on combat.
[X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
-[x] Make the Offer
Molly: 29xp
-[x] Inner Devils Unchained: 12xp
-[X] Murder is Meat: 4xp
[x] Wind-Born Stride: 8 xp
-[X] Naked Wicked Souls: 3xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
[X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
-[x] Make the Offer
Molly: 29xp
-[x] Inner Devils Unchained: 12xp
-[X] Murder is Meat: 4xp
[x] Wind-Born Stride: 8 xp
-[X] Naked Wicked Souls: 3xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp
[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
Social combat is a thing that can talk someone into rewriting their entire goals, and motivation. And Exalted explicitly just auto win social combat over the over a couple of months against anything without their own super social. Mortals just cannot withstand people that throw around 15+ dice for months on end. None of Molly minions could stand up to her even if they where not COD's, but since they are their opinions on pretty much anything can be changed at Molly's whim.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
Approval voting for all plans that don't include MMP:
[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
[X] Plan Duck Out
[X] Plan Cross Eyed Look
[X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
Plus framing it like that loses all the context. And context is important here. If we are going to be engaging socially with our friends/allies our goal isn't to grind them down and shape them however we want. If we are acting like that something has gone horribly wrong. Perhaps we disagree with them on some things, and perhaps we wish to convince them of one thing or another. But the fact that we engage with them using the same tools they engage with us (words) and in good faith is important.
If what we are arguing for is fundamentally unreasonable then they will push back. Perhaps with effort we could gaslight or browbeat them to see things how we want, but how is that not a bad thing?
I'm struggling with grasping your argument here. My thoughts go something like this:
Mind control is bad => Advanced social manipulation can produce results similar to mind control given sufficient time scales => ???
For me the ??? is "Maybe we should consider the ethics of how we use high level social manipulation on our friends" not "Maybe mind control isn't so bad"
The possibility of us being able to do ethically dubious things via our words does not permit us to do ethically dubious things via our powers.
[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
[X] Plan Duck Out
[X] Plan Cross Eyed Look
[X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
Molly's frequent losses in social combat to her mom say it wouldn't be that easy. A mortal defending a closely held belief can punch high.
Plus framing it like that loses all the context. And context is important here. If we are going to be engaging socially with our friends/allies our goal isn't to grind them down and shape them however we want. If we are acting like that something has gone horribly wrong. Perhaps we disagree with them on some things, and perhaps we wish to convince them of one thing or another. But the fact that we engage with them using the same tools they engage with us (words) and in good faith is important.
If what we are arguing for is fundamentally unreasonable then they will push back. Perhaps with effort we could gaslight or browbeat them to see things how we want, but how is that not a bad thing?
I'm struggling with grasping your argument here. My thoughts go something like this:
Mind control is bad => Advanced social manipulation can produce results similar to mind control given sufficient time scales => ???
For me the ??? is "Maybe we should consider the ethics of how we use high level social manipulation on our friends" not "Maybe mind control isn't so bad"
The possibility of us being able to do ethically dubious things via our words does not permit us to do ethically dubious things via our powers.
- Location
- Germany
[X] Plan Cross Eyed Look
[X] Plan Court and War
[X] Plan Court and War
[X] Say goodbye
-[X] Offer training and equipment instead
-[X] STUNT: "Believe me. I know the feeling. I really do. I grew up with it, even. I won't provide a magical immediate solution right now, not when you are so angry and not thinking clearly. What I will provide, however, are the means. I'll talk to some people, arrange training in how to fight, provide equipment if you want it. And if, by Christmas, you still want to keep fighting, we'll discuss the topic again. I might have something by that time".
[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
[X] Plan Duck Out
-[X] Offer training and equipment instead
-[X] STUNT: "Believe me. I know the feeling. I really do. I grew up with it, even. I won't provide a magical immediate solution right now, not when you are so angry and not thinking clearly. What I will provide, however, are the means. I'll talk to some people, arrange training in how to fight, provide equipment if you want it. And if, by Christmas, you still want to keep fighting, we'll discuss the topic again. I might have something by that time".
[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
[X] Plan Duck Out
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In regards to mind control. I don't think that -1 DC is mind control. IC this can be "wow, these maggots are actually super delicious, thanks Molly, for giving me this new experience!" instinctual reaction. We naturally produce -2 DC social field with Demonic Primacy of Essence, after all.
Personally, for me, Maggot Mana Plague is mostly interesting in regards to White Court fledgelings. By using MMP to fill their hunger before it has a chance to ever feed, we'll actually be mutating them, changing them into something new:
On an unrelated note, I am making a stab at expanding my Fivefold Court write-in in regards to flora and fauna. I have some (a lot of ) ideas on what I want to see there, and there's stuff I have already mentioned that I'll be expanding upon. Does anyone have any suggestions or things they particularly want to see? It'll probably be done this weekend.
EDIT: And yes, there will be dinosaurs.
Personally, for me, Maggot Mana Plague is mostly interesting in regards to White Court fledgelings. By using MMP to fill their hunger before it has a chance to ever feed, we'll actually be mutating them, changing them into something new:
As long as it's done with consent, I am very curious where this will lead.
On an unrelated note, I am making a stab at expanding my Fivefold Court write-in in regards to flora and fauna. I have some (a lot of ) ideas on what I want to see there, and there's stuff I have already mentioned that I'll be expanding upon. Does anyone have any suggestions or things they particularly want to see? It'll probably be done this weekend.
EDIT: And yes, there will be dinosaurs.
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- Location
- Germany
It's a bit weird to worry about Maggots being Mind-Control when we decided to pick up an aura that constantly shouts "KNEEL BEFORE MOLLY" at any nearby CoD?
Edit: And almost every plan currently being voted gives Lydia similar power over undead and ghosts?
Edit: And almost every plan currently being voted gives Lydia similar power over undead and ghosts?
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This isn't actually related to the flora and fauna, but I'm slightly bothered that I don't actually have a picture of what the five cities look like, from a ground perspective. The architecture and layout to give me a proper mental visual on the cities themselves is somewhat lacking. I know the pillars they stand on, the prison, and the two dragon sculptures with the palace on top, as well as the spider-heavy areas having a lot of vertical construction, but I can't quite picture in my head walking down an average city street, or the university of the Emerald City of Secrets and other such major landmarks inside the cities themselves.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
Okay I admit that magic experiments are interesting. But I don't think just this one experiment is worth 8 exp. Especially with all the other issues the charm has.
The fact that the -1 DC happens outside of any narrative effects makes it pretty clear it's a supernatural influence though. Like, if we trick someone into eating it, or force feed them or whatever it still works right?
I maintain that any notion of consent is suspect given how much power we have over the individuals in question though. We are literally their boss/superior/CEO/whatever. Can't we walk this path via alchemy or something instead? Something that doesn't come with an in-built loyalty hook.
Eh, I put that in the same category as excellencies. A change in how we act/present our self, not a change in the target.
Perhaps there are ethical questions about using DPoE on our allies. But more often then not we use it to deal with our enemies, or at least very uneasy allies. Same thing with the ghost version.
A charm that we are specifically planning to push/use on our very vulnerable subordinates on the other hand tics very different boxes. It's not just the specific effect, the context matters.
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Oh, you are in for a treat (I hope). I have spent some (a lot of) time with midjourney trying to make illustrations. They are not perfect, of course, but I do have a nice-ish collection. Also, if anyone wants me to try and make illustrations for their write-ins, please send me a PM; I have midjourney bought for the year, so it's no issue to plug in additional prompts. I'll post the illustrations a bit later, in a consolidated update where all parts of the fivefold court are gathered in one post.
So we don't trick people (unless they are outright evil), and are upfront about side-effects. Molly gets to know effects of her charms IC.
Well, if it works and produces good results, it could be a start of a whole new court. There are enough whamp fledgelings for there to be a community, after all.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
No. Because even if we are totally upfront with the consequences, even if we say it's their choice, our relationship is far too unbalanced for it to ever be true.
It's enough that if I was an outside observer looking at things it would push my opinion of Molly's group from "Maybe she really is benevolent?" to "Okay never mind she's just another devil pulling a long con while she reels them in".
The people we are helping with MiS are in an incredibly vulnerable position. Their improved lifestyle is almost entirely at our whim. They have a very strong incentive to try to keep us happy. Even if it means sacrificing a tiny bit of their free will.
The worst part of it all is that it is totally unnecessary. If MMP was the true only option we had then I could accept it. Maybe work to ameliorate it's negative effects. But it's not our only solution. Hardly at all.
MMP as it is, is only suited to be a weapon wielded against our enemies, not a tool to help our minions. Perhaps if we had anything close to an equal relationship things could be different. But we don't.
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The issue is that, as far as I can see, MMP is the only option we have in our arsenal that would allow supernatural beings we know (whampires, ghouls, and such) to actually make use of their non-human gifts in a morally acceptable way. MiS doesn't provide energy. They can live indefinitely not bothered by their hungers, but if they want to utilize what abilities they have, they have to actually feed to fuel their inherent magic. So, there are three options:
1) Live as near mortals, which is possible, but not optimal, either for us or them
2) Feed like their demons want them to
3) Use MMP
The fourth option is to be reborn in Spawning Pit Sanctification (it's the only bakemono-making charm that works on supernatural beings we have), and it comes with the following downside " Bakemono created with this Charm inevitably suffer from a derangement that fills them with paralyzing terror at the thought of disobeying the Infernal, increasing the difficulty of all actions undertaken while betraying or opposing her by two.". That's essentially a harsher stick to MMP's smaller carrot.
I guess we could do something with high level alchemy as an alternative.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
I would definitely prefer exploring high level alchemy instead. I included alchemy 2 in my plan after all! We can advance it more in the future easy enough.
8 exp buys a good bit after all.
There is also the option of instituting various social programs we could develop to ease feeding on morals in a moral way. Various suggestions have been proposed. The increased control from MiS makes things like feeding at horror movies plausible when they would not have been before for example.
Ultimately we will need a solution that is not MMP anyway since MMP doesn't scale well. Basically I see MMP as taking the easy way out, except it causes more problems that it solves and isn't really a good solution anyway. Not worth 8 exp.
Anyway, votes as they stand.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
You keep saying this.
But all the proposed alternatives i.e Alchemy is individual.
Only MMP feeds hundreds of people. Thd rest only feeds individualx IF we sink time and lots of xp into it.
Theoretically yes, magical awakening, perfect immortality, creating entirely new forms of supernatural being that are self-sustaining are all within the grasp of alchemy. Practically that is not something that is easy to make even if you have the dots for it (Alchemy 5) and it requires rare and valuable reagents
It is permanent, you are fundamentally binding someone to you by the gift of your own essence, sating any hunger. Those who are already creatures of Darkness so not go through the full transformation because their inner darkness already has shape and purpose, but mortals are more malleable.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
I have no idea what a potential Alchemy based solution would look like. But I have confidence that we can come up with one with effort.
Plus it's hardly the only potential solution. Social programs/donation or something else. Honestly even Spawning Pit Sanctification seems like a better solution to me because the effects are obvious. A fully encompassing carrot is far more insidious then a much more narrowly applied stick.
The key point is there are other solutions. We just need to find them.
Annd that's enough to put me firmly in the "we should never ever give MMP to anyone we consider a friend or ally" camp (Unless it's literally life or death or various possible other exceptions that don't apply here). Thank you.
Just to be 100% clear. You mean that if anyone, mortal or Creatures of Darkness, eats a single meal of our maggots, then they are permanently affected by us having a -1 difficulty to social actions on them?
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Yes and it would be very hard to get rid of with mortal magic since it is the Exaltation going 'mine now'.
That said it would be noted that -1 isn't that much, it is noticeable improvement of goodwill and deference on someone's part, but to give a contrast something invoking an intimacy is +2/+3 to the opposed will roll.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
Thank you. Much appreciated.
I'm going to say I still solidly oppose using "Just a little" mind control. For in character reasons if nothing else. And there is quite a bit of else.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Yes and hence "Time and xp" both of which are at a premium.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
*Shrug*
There is a reason I have been calling it the "easy way". For all it's problems it does sort of solve things for now.
It's just that I consider it coming at unacceptable cost. The experience cost that could be spent on other things. The reputation cost of utilizing mental influence on our minions. The practical time and effort costs of resolving the problems it creates and utilizing it.
And the moral cost of taking the easy way and having Molly accept a little mind control as an acceptable side effect.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
As opposed to not doing anything.
What you are proposing is a long term project that is conditional on people consistently voting to throw AP and xp in the hope ghat we see z unknown pay off some time kn the future.
Given that thd quest is voting by committee, I do not see it happening.
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