Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

That said, if Bob pegs Molly as god-queen of a spirit court, there's very little chance that Mab hasnt done so either.
Which raises the amusing possibility of Mab considering Molly to be competition for the loyalties of the Starborn she has been grooming to be Winter Knight for the last five years.

This is very arguable. Mab had all of several minutes to talk to Molly while she was actively guarding her mind against Mab. Bob worked with Molly for several months, and Molly told Bob much more about herself, and was much more open about her self and powers than she was around Mab. Harry also likely explained what he learned through soulgaze to Bob. At the moment, I think, outside of (some) angels, and possibly capital D Dragons, Bob is likely one of the eminent experts on what exalted are in the setting.
Can anyone else use the Navajo banishment methods if they learn what they are
I don't think so. My read was the naagloshii broke some oaths to Navajo people, and Navajo could use that to exert power over them. Sorta kinda like Celestrial exalts had oaths of surrender over demons, but terrestrial ones didn't, and it had nothing to do with power. Unless Molly has some Navajo blood in her veins (we should, at some point, investigate our ancestry, both on Michael's and Charity's side).
What can Molly do with the True Name of a naagloshii?
Since it isn't from their lips, I think the most that can be done with it is identifying the specific one.
When it comes to being superhumanly good at talking to people... is this paranoia fuel for Dresden if we say it outright(How often has she used this power in conversations with me?)? Is this a source of White council legal arguments if they become aware of this?

It's a good thing we aren't legally human I guess.
I realize that it could be paranoia fuel. I think that in this case, it's best we are open about it. It's also important to remember - excellencies target us, not the anyone else. We become better, we don't affect others. And Harry already knows that we can make ourselves better at stuff, including talking to people, I think. This is just hammering it home.
 
Its at least five thousand years old. Safe to assume it can understand or model humans just fine.
Previous incarnations of the Archive allegedly masqeraded as soothsayers and, most famously, the Pythian Oracle of Delphi, using their knowledge of human psychology, biology and geosociopolitics to make predictions.

That said, its shown feats suggest its designed to operate as a Mantle of sorts.
Which in this setting requires a mortal mind.
All that the previous Archives have done, they have done by working between a mantle-like power and the human person.
There has been no proof of the Archive-Mantle itself having any sapience beyond the human that is currently wearing it.

So I don't believe that the power itself, the Mantle alone, has the ability to manipulate humans in the way the Archive has to, to do its job.
It needs the human that is the current Archive.
And that is where the weakness comes in that I am strongly suspecting, that a creative person that is currently the Archive has the best odds of all people to really fuck over the Mantle of the Archive, if they wished to do so out of a desire for freedom or simple, understandable, wonderful Spite.
 
Maybe an echo of the possibility of our future kingdom?

The charm does says it exists sort of retroactively, why wouldn't this kind of phenomenon happen too?
Maybe.
"Harry, I'm not a damsel in distress. I'm a damsel of distress."
iamtheonewhoknocks.jpg
:V


VOTE
[X] No, you would rather keep the favor for now, there are other places you can find information, other allies you can gather


RATIONALE
OOC, looking at Mab's roster of troubleshooters that operate/have operated in North America?
The bench is currently a little thin.

The Winter Knight is in jail. Lea is in rehab.
Old Man Mathews just started on the job as new Eldest Ankou. Not really up to playing at this level.
Eldest Malk Cat Sith is maybe a little lacking in pure mojo to go up against this sort of magical heavyweight.
We killed Eldest Fetch very dead. THE Redcap would just go splat.

I cant think of anyone she can easily and cheaply put in the field at this level.
Nor do I think its in our interests or that of the rest of Reality to make her dig into her reserves.
Just take a raincheck.

We can tap Summer, or ask Michael. Probably ask Michael first before trying to tap Summer.

Also?
Dont treat Dresden like a child; he wont appreciae it. Dresden has been dealing with Mab since we were in middle school.
They have an existing working relationship.

And we dont want to meet Mab before our designated summit anyway.
 
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[X] Yes, trade the information in for whatever you can

OOC, looking at Mab's roster of troubleshooters that operate/have operated in North America?
The bench is currently a little thin.

The Winter Knight is in jail. Lea is in rehab.
Old Man Mathews just started on the job as new Eldest Ankou. Not really up to playing at this level.
Eldest Malk Cat Sith is maybe a little lacking in pure mojo to go up against this sort of magical heavyweight.
We killed Eldest Fetch very dead. THE Redcap would just go splat.

I cant think of anyone she can easily and cheaply put in the field at this level.
Nor do I think its in our interests or that of the rest of Reality to make her dig into her reserves.
Just take a raincheck.
I don't think we want troubleshooters from Mab.
We have more than enough power, knowing how to best apply it will be enough of a return for Lictor-news.
 
I don't think so. My read was the naagloshii broke some oaths to Navajo people, and Navajo could use that to exert power over them. Sorta kinda like Celestrial exalts had oaths of surrender over demons, but terrestrial ones didn't, and it had nothing to do with power. Unless Molly has some Navajo blood in her veins (we should, at some point, investigate our ancestry, both on Michael's and Charity's side).
It's possible that we might be able to bluff the effect with intimidate exalancys and anima flares. Demon banishment often isn't because of the effect itself, but the holy man in question loudly calling out the targeting coordinates for a holy smite.
 
It's possible that we might be able to bluff the effect with intimidate exalancys and anima flares. Demon banishment often isn't because of the effect itself, but the holy man in question loudly calling out the targeting coordinates for a holy smite.
But we are very much not holy, anything with supernatural senses can see we are something in the "great and terrible" direction.
Why would a Naagloshii mistake that for a man on the Blessing Way?
 
RATIONALE
OOC, looking at Mab's roster of troubleshooters that operate/have operated in North America?
The bench is currently a little thin.

The Winter Knight is in jail. Lea is in rehab.
Old Man Mathews just started on the job as new Eldest Ankou. Not really up to playing at this level.
Eldest Malk Cat Sith is maybe a little lacking in pure mojo to go up against this sort of magical heavyweight.
We killed Eldest Fetch very dead. THE Redcap would just go splat.

I cant think of anyone she can easily and cheaply put in the field at this level.
Nor do I think its in our interests or that of the rest of Reality to make her dig into her reserves.
Just take a raincheck.

We can tap Summer, or ask Michael. Probably ask Michael first before trying to tap Summer.

Also?
Dont treat Dresden like a child; he wont appreciae it. Dresden has been dealing with Mab since we were in middle school.
They have an existing working relationship.

And we dont want to meet Mab before our designated summit anyway.
We certainly can use assistance from Winter, and that assistance doesn't need to be limited to sending heavy hitters in. Keeping naagloshii contained while we fight it would be enough.

As to treating Dresden like a child... We aren't? But Dresden is currently indebted to Mab, and we should be objectively better than he is at negotiations. It's just how our powers work.
 
When it comes to being superhumanly good at talking to people... is this paranoia fuel for Dresden if we say it outright(How often has she used this power in conversations with me?)? Is this a source of White council legal arguments if they become aware of this? It's a good thing we aren't legally human I guess.
Why?
Fae glamour is very much a known phenomenon. High-Appearance Whampires are a known issue.
Even Denarians can do the equivalent of boosting social to tempt people; we see Rosa try to do it to the Knights in Small Favor.

(Man, there's a lotta Roses and Rosas in the quest setting)
This is very arguable. Mab had all of several minutes to talk to Molly while she was actively guarding her mind against Mab. Bob worked with Molly for several months, and Molly told Bob much more about herself, and was much more open about her self and powers than she was around Mab. Harry also likely explained what he learned through soulgaze to Bob. At the moment, I think, outside of (some) angels, and possibly capital D Dragons, Bob is likely one of the eminent experts on what exalted are in the s
Bob has the benefit of privileged conversations with Molly and Dresden.

Mab however is an Incarna-level entity.
She saw Enma's forces attempt to wield the shard as a weapon, had it buried in the heart of her power for several centuries at a minimum, and has seen it borne and wielded by InfernalMolly. And thats in addition to her intelligence network.

This is the woman who knew about the Denarians kidnapping Marcone before Chicago-resident Dresden did.
The woman who figured out that the Denarians were out to corrupt the Archive and put Dresden on the case before the Archive was even contacted.

There's very little chance that Bob has a better judgement of this than Mab.
She might not know specific minutaie, but the knowledge spirit does not have a better grasp of this sort of thing than the Queen of Air and Darkness.
I don't think so. My read was the naagloshii broke some oaths to Navajo people, and Navajo could use that to exert power over them. Sorta kinda like Celestrial exalts had oaths of surrender over demons, but terrestrial ones didn't, and it had nothing to do with power. Unless Molly has some Navajo blood in her veins (we should, at some point, investigate our ancestry, both on Michael's and Charity's side).
That might work.
Maybe we should look around for a Native American shaman in the Chicago area that has the solid brass balls to try.

Now, if we'd actually contacted Mortimer Lindquist and his ghosts, we might have been able to find a Native American spirit/wandering soul with actual jurisdiction over rogue spirits like naagloshii.
Water under the bridge.

Lydia's dad, or her library, might have some idea.
All that the previous Archives have done, they have done by working between a mantle-like power and the human person.
There has been no proof of the Archive-Mantle itself having any sapience beyond the human that is currently wearing it.

So I don't believe that the power itself, the Mantle alone, has the ability to manipulate humans in the way the Archive has to, to do its job.It needs the human that is the current Archive.

And that is where the weakness comes in that I am strongly suspecting, that a creative person that is currently the Archive has the best odds of all people to really fuck over the Mantle of the Archive, if they wished to do so out of a desire for freedom or simple, understandable, wonderful Spite.
I honestly dont know.

The Archive is all about information control. Its hardly going to advertise its self-preservation protocols.
I have no trouble considering that it might actually be sandbagging as an information control strategy; certainly when Dresden saw her fight in Small Favor, it turned out that she had been letting everyone significantly underestimate her actual magical power.

But like I said, I dont know.
 
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Bob has the benefit of privileged conversations with Molly and Dresden.

Mab however is an Incarna-level entity.
She saw Enma's forces attempt to wield the shard as a weapon, had it buried in the heart of her power for several centuries at a minimum, and has seen it borne and wielded by InfernalMolly. And thats in addition to her intelligence network.

This is the woman who knew about the Denarians kidnapping Marcone before Chicago-resident Dresden did.
The woman who figured out that the Denarians were out to corrupt the Archive and put Dresden on the case before the Archive was even contacted.

There's very little chance that Bob has a better judgement of this than Mab.
She might not know specific minutaie, but the knowledge spirit does not have a better grasp of this sort of thing than the Queen of Air and Darkness.
In the absence of evidence, we'll have to disagree here. I am of the opinion that Mab thinks she knows a lot of stuff about Molly's exaltation. I am also almost sure she is wrong about a lot of stuff.

It's also important to remember that Mab is busy. She couldn't devote the last several months on figuring out how Molly worked (and the exaltation without a host and with a host are very, very different things). Bob could. In fact, Bob almost certainly did spend the last several months figuring Molly out.
 
I don't think we want troubleshooters from Mab.
We have more than enough power, knowing how to best apply it will be enough of a return for Lictor-news.
We dont have the right kind of power, thats the problem.
And most of the named troubleshooters Im aware of that Winter would normally send to handle this sort of thing are kinda tied up.

We certainly can use assistance from Winter, and that assistance doesn't need to be limited to sending heavy hitters in. Keeping naagloshii contained while we fight it would be enough.

As to treating Dresden like a child... We aren't? But Dresden is currently indebted to Mab, and we should be objectively better than he is at negotiations. It's just how our powers work.
Winter doesnt appear to have very many Named troubleshooters available in that weightclass.
And we REALLY dont want Mab to mistakenly send Nemesis!Infected Winter Lady Maeve to back us up before she realizes her daughter has been subverted.

Dresden has been dealing with Mab for five years, and has managed not to sell himself into durance vile.
He has a Fallen shadow in his head thats incentivized not to let him do so either.
And Mab doesnt actually want to break him. He's too valuable.

The fact that we are better at him does not mean we attempt to push him out of the way.
This is not something important enough we MUST stand in.
In the absence of evidence, we'll have to disagree here. I am of the opinion that Mab thinks she knows a lot of stuff about Molly's exaltation. I am also almost sure she is wrong about a lot of stuff.

It's also important to remember that Mab is busy. She couldn't devote the last several months on figuring out how Molly worked (and the exaltation without a host and with a host are very, very different things). Bob could. In fact, Bob almost certainly did spend the last several months figuring Molly out.
Mab found the time to scry Marcone's kidnapping in Small Favor, in between serving at the Gates, healing Lea, and all the other thousand and one tasks her job requires.

Yes, she is busy, but this is very much in the rotation of the sort of thing she routinely figures out.
We are a growing entity in a major supernatural nexus, in close proximity to a maximum security containment facility for dark gods and other undesirables.

Of course she's keeping an eye on us, both personally and through her intelligence network.
Anything else would be negligence.
 
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Winter doesnt appear to have very many troubleshooters available.
And we REALLY dont want Mab to mistakenly send Nemesis!Infected Winter Lady Maeve to back us up before she realizes her daughter has been subverted.
And, again, I don't think we necessary need troubleshooters. We need logistical support. We need preparation. During combat we are likely to be the ones doing the heaviest fighting, in my opinion. We need naagloshii distracted, harried, and unable to flee (including via ways).

We could also Winter's deep lore to get information about this specific skinwalker, their history and potential vulnerabilities.
Dresden has been dealing with Mab for five years, and has managed not to sell himself into durance vile.
He has a Fallen shadow in his head thats incentivized not to let him do so either.
And Mab doesnt actually want to break him. He's too valuable.

The fact that we are better at him does not mean we attempt to push him out of the way.
This is not something important enough we MUST stand in.
Dresden spent the last five years trying desperately not to deal with Mab. He is still indebted to her. And we are not pushing him out of the way. We are just not hiding behind him, and not letting him serve as a human shield.
That might work.
Maybe we should look around for a Native American shaman in the Chicago area that has the solid brass balls to try.

Now, if we'd actually contacted Mortimer Lindquist and his ghosts, we might have been able to find a Native American spirit/wandering soul with actual jurisdiction over rogue spirits like naagloshii.
Water under the bridge.

Lydia's dad, or her library, might have some idea.
Assuming the fight is after the next round of XP purchase - commute to Nevada using RVD, find someone there. Maybe unearth some native American ancient weapon.
 
Betting against Mab is rarely a good idea. Bob figured us out by himself in a couple of months while in a basement. Mab had hundreds of years and the ability to deligate to minions to go find out stuff. She knows something, and likely more than she will tell US, or we want her to know.
 
You know, I find it interesting that Butcher has skinwalkers as demons, when what little of the legends that have been released have them closer to corrupted medicine men.
 
And, again, I don't think we necessary need troubleshooters. We need logistical support. We need preparation. During combat we are likely to be the ones doing the heaviest fighting, in my opinion. We need naagloshii distracted, harried, and unable to flee (including via ways).

We could also Winter's deep lore to get information about this specific skinwalker, their history and potential vulnerabilities.
In other words, we need troubleshooters to do all those things.
People that Mab trusts with the knowledge, power and judgement to make those types of calls in the field without her supervision, and if necessary to call on some of Winter's respurces.

Thats not a long list.
There's a reason Mab has used Dresden as an empowered Emissary in the mortal world these five years.
One of several reasons, at least.

Its a naagloshii.
Their vulnerabilities arent secret, there just happen to be very few people with the authority to use them. Thats why their opponents seem to default to overwhelming force instead.
Dresden spent the last five years trying desperately not to deal with Mab. He is still indebted to her. And we are not pushing him out of the way.
You're going to have to distinguish what Dresden says from what he actually does.
Dude has a remarkable talent for self-delusion.

Its been less than a year since he called Mab's second in command for information and got Mab. Less than a year since he called up the Summer King. Three months since he called up Winter Lady Maeve and Summer Lady Lily for a nice long talk at Mac's.
A month and half since he talked to Mab.

For all his protestations, he has no compunctions in dealing with her underlings and associates in the background knowledge that all this shit gets back to her. And he uses the Little Folk all the goddamn time.

On top of that?
Mab's handmaiden, her second in command, is Dresden's godmother.
And with her in magical rehab for Nemesis infection, Mab stands in loco parentis in the Leanansidhe's steed.

He couldnt avoid Mab, any more than he could avoid gravity. And he really isnt trying very hard.
We are just not hiding behind him, and not letting him serve as a human shield.
Mab has the Leanansidhe imprisoned.
While she does, Lea's obligations and responsobilities fall on Mab.
Effectively, Mab is Dresden's godmother for the duration.

And frankly, we wouldnt be doing him a favor by preventing him from getting experience operating at those levels.
You learn by doing.
You know, I find it interesting that Butcher has skinwalkers as demons, when what little of the legends that have been released have them closer to corrupted medicine men.
There's allegedly two types.

There's corrupted medicine men and magic workers, who are wielders of black magic and shapeshifters.
Then there's the people they learned from, the true naagloshii.
Who are spirits/demons.

Its not all that unheard of in Native American mythology. See the wendigo.
 
[X] No, you would rather keep the favor for now, there are other places you can find information, other allies you can gather

We are going to have to go into social combat, true social combat, not polite negotiations, with Mab sometime by the end of October. Every word, gesture, or supernatural ability we reveal in asking for support now shoots us in the foot later down the line when we can't afford it.
 
Every word, gesture, or supernatural ability we reveal in asking for support now shoots us in the foot later down the line when we can't afford it.
Indeed. Particularly if she has the ability to negate or dispel some of them or their effects. Even something as simple as freezing the liquid that we're trying to wet ourselves with would negatively impact our ability to contend with her, let alone more overt measures.
Admittedly, there is probably a limit to what she can get away with doing without giving offense; trying to dispel or otherwise take down our IPM, for instance, would probably be crossing the line.
 
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Had a thought. What if we get our kingdom before summoning Mab. Had our kingdom include Lord of the land and summoned Mab within our kingdom?

Not saying that I want to fight her, but having that much power on our side would likely go a long way towards making the conversation civil. Also summoning her into our kingdom is such a power move.
 
Depending on if we vote for Automatic essence upgrade, we may hit E3 and with 8xp refund, we can buy the King and Kingdom charm next turn.
 
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