Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Is that a thing in WoD? I don't recall anything of the sort in DF, except for instances of Human practitioners killing mortals with magic.
I think he is referring to handing out nutritious maggots to white court scions whose hunger is not properly awake. They would get the full metaphysical powers of a well fed Hunger Demon without having to kill anyone.
To white scions and red half-turned vampires both, actually. When asked about Red Court, Butcher gave this answer:
2015 AMA
Are all red courts and black court vampires evil?
This is a pretty huge question and depends a lot on how you view the world.
Red Court vampires, by definition, to become a vampire, have to murder someone else to become what they are. They have to end another person's life to satisfy a desire that does not /need/ to be satisfied in order for them to continue living. Every single one of them makes a choice to sate that desire rather than allow another human being to live–the Fellowship of St. Giles proves that.
(Of course, there are shades of grey involved–a half-vampire who was kept starving and without water in a basement for three days before they were thrown a mortal has a much more difficult time making a clear-headed choice than a half-vampire who was restrained yet cared for by a group of religiously fanatic monks at a Fellowship stronghold, but there's still a choice being made.)
That could, by some people, be considered a working definition of evil. Sometimes unfortunate, sometimes understandable as to how someone could make that choice, but evil nonetheless.
The philosophical questions of choice, free will, and resisting duress when making choices are pretty central to Butcher's universe. Murder is a pretty big sin, even if the outcome was not intended (for white court scions who were kept in the dark about their condition). I assume that the metaphysical corruption / damnation / damage caused to one's soul for becoming a murderer gives White Hunger more power over influencing their host (sorry, this sentence is very clunky, I mean that White Hunger might affect their host more easily if the host killed someone during the initiation). Same with the evil nature of Red Court vampires - the murder as choice (and it's more explicit with them).

This leads to the question of "what happens if one undergoes the initiation / transformation without having to give into the demon at all".
 
This is not something that we can use and conceal.
This and that are different things though. Explaining what the effect is is different than clarifying the context it's coming from. Tell her about the foibles of MiS sure, but not that Molly is something other than what they assume she is.

These guys aren't our friends and we probably can't keep Bella as a minion. More than that, we're probably going to end up hostile with their faction. They are exactly the people we don't want knowing any more than the minimum.

Even if they'll find out eventually we want to waste as much of their time and energy as we efficiently can.

Really we can get away with ordering her to do charity work once a week and feeding on a vampire strong enough to take it once she has the opportunity for the same effect. They could screw that up and die, but we can't exactly hold their hands here and fight the court at the same time.

[X] Yog

As an aside, I think @Yog's plan technically makes us Bella's Mab. :V
 
Depends on edition, but sometimes yes. Several WoD supernaturals had a ten-point scale named Humanity, Integrity, Morality, or similar, which goes down when you sin or spend time without human contact, but can be bought up again with experience.
Of particular interest is the Demon: The Fallen line, whose Humanity-equivalent had a lot of mechanical and aesthetic influence on how their powers works.

NGL this is very interesting to me. As much as theoretical unfucked Fomori, even.
 
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To white scions and red half-turned vampires both, actually. When asked about Red Court, Butcher gave this answer:

The philosophical questions of choice, free will, and resisting duress when making choices are pretty central to Butcher's universe. Murder is a pretty big sin, even if the outcome was not intended (for white court scions who were kept in the dark about their condition). I assume that the metaphysical corruption / damnation / damage caused to one's soul for becoming a murderer gives White Hunger more power over influencing their host (sorry, this sentence is very clunky, I mean that White Hunger might affect their host more easily if the host killed someone during the initiation). Same with the evil nature of Red Court vampires - the murder as choice (and it's more explicit with them).

This leads to the question of "what happens if one undergoes the initiation / transformation without having to give into the demon at all".
It's probably a lot less significant for white vamps than for red ones if it can trigger their transformation at all.

White vampires appear to just need the power, and have close but still distinct symbiote to feed. The killing itself seems less important and the process itself less transformative.

It's also something they could do without exalted bullshit by feeding on the right target.

If it was a process that gave an impression advantage I'd expect it to be something they cultivate rather than avoid.
 
The wonderful decision to give "being good" mechanical advantages and "being evil" disatvantages.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here, but it's not exactly "being evil". The Integrity stat goes down with some evil actions like murder, which I mentioned because that was the context @Goldfish asked about benefits for not having murdered. The Integrity stat also goes down with other actions that aren't evil but tend to disassociate a supernatural character from mortal humans.

To give some concrete examples from one of the Vampire books that I have to hand (Vampire:Requiem 2e)

At maximum Humanity rating (10), you can lose Humanity for going one night without human contact, spending more than one Blood Point in a night, lying to cover up the Masquerade, or feeding from an unwilling target. 10 Humanity is not expected; it's for particularly ascetic/nostalgic vampires who are making a superhuman effort to hold onto what they were, live as humans, live among humans.

At typical Humanity rating (7), you can lose Humanity for going one week without human contact, walking off something that would have hospitalized a human, helping a vampire Covenant enough to get the Status background, or feeding from a child. This is where new PCs start, and these things are all avoidable by paying attention, but will probably happen to murderhobo characters.

At low Humanity rating (4), further Humanity loss only occurs for major disconnects from ordinary human life: one month without human contact, surviving for a century, learning a dot of the Cruac Discipline (blood magic), or murder.

High rating also means you can lose Humanity for all actions mentioned in a lower tier. Humanity loss is not guaranteed, there's a dice roll to see if it happens.
 
To white scions and red half-turned vampires both, actually. When asked about Red Court, Butcher gave this answer:

The philosophical questions of choice, free will, and resisting duress when making choices are pretty central to Butcher's universe. Murder is a pretty big sin, even if the outcome was not intended (for white court scions who were kept in the dark about their condition). I assume that the metaphysical corruption / damnation / damage caused to one's soul for becoming a murderer gives White Hunger more power over influencing their host (sorry, this sentence is very clunky, I mean that White Hunger might affect their host more easily if the host killed someone during the initiation). Same with the evil nature of Red Court vampires - the murder as choice (and it's more explicit with them).

This leads to the question of "what happens if one undergoes the initiation / transformation without having to give into the demon at all".

Given that the mechanism for not giving in would have to do with primordial Essence and the nature of that Essence being transformational I think it is a fair guess that something unusual would happen
 
This and that are different things though. Explaining what the effect is is different than clarifying the context it's coming from. Tell her about the foibles of MiS sure, but not that Molly is something other than what they assume she is.
Strongly disagree.

There is a minimum amount of working knowledge thats necessary to operate in supernatural society.
People need to know where they stand with you and your affiliation.
And its knowledge that has to be out there anyway. Some of its knowledge that we have already put out.

Lets remember that Im the guy who always advocates that we minimize the information we give out.
So Im not exactly thrilled at the prospect. But we've made commitments, and our reputation depends on how we cleave to them.

And I am not saying that we tell them we are an Infernal Exalt born in Arctis Tor.
They cant demand that anyway. Anymore than they can ask a Jade Court elder who his mentors were.
But they do need to know that we are Molly Carpenter, and something Other, and not bound to any existing Powers.

These guys aren't our friends and we probably can't keep Bella as a minion. More than that, we're probably going to end up hostile with their faction. They are exactly the people we don't want knowing any more than the minimum.
We CAN keep Bella as a minion if we want to. I am not sure we do, though.
And we DONT know what faction OldSkavis is affiliated with.

They dont have to be friends to be useful.
Marcone is not our friend. Neither is Mab. Doesnt mean that they cant be useful, or that we we cant find useful people and allies in their factions and associates. Just like Dresden has useful people in Summer, despite Titania being hostile to him.

And this is information that will be out there anyway.
We already have the Jade Dogs in employ, we're looking out for Whampires underground, and Thomas being a business partner is going to get around soon enough. This shit cant stay secret. Not unless you think the opposition are wholly incompetent.

Lara Raith already had someone call our father after the car auction.

Really we can get away with ordering her to do charity work once a week and feeding on a vampire strong enough to take it once she has the opportunity for the same effect. They could screw that up and die, but we can't exactly hold their hands here and fight the court at the same time.
The QM has said this before about it being in service to us or an organization we control.
We cant just have MiS work in response to random charity work iirc.

And its worth remembering we assumed a commitment to the kid unprompted.
We are kinda beholden not to fuck it up.
For her sake, and for others.

And where does this idea of fighting the White Court come from?
Thomas Raith is our financial guy, remember? The White King's son, and Lara Raith's brother?
 
Given that the mechanism for not giving in would have to do with primordial Essence and the nature of that Essence being transformational I think it is a fair guess that something unusual would happen
Experimentation time! But probably after we get our kingdom, since then the charm will be linked to it, rather than the default hell it's from. Also, buying this charm probably means that mana maggots become a part of our Kingdom's ecosystem, even if we don't buy Fruits of Hell.

And I just realized how ridiculous Mana Maggot Plague + Demonic Primacy of Essence are. That's -5 DC to social people who regularly eat our maggots (or who have eaten enough to become creatures of Darkness). With BSM that's -6, i.e. the maximum possible DC reduction (from 9 to 3).
But they do need to know that we are Molly Carpenter, and something Other, and not bound to any existing Powers.
Giving out a name is tricky. I mean, what if they are stupid enough to try to conjure by it? The elder vampire might be able to try to utilize True Names in some way. Something poetic, but enough that the elder understands our identity is probably better. Something along the lines of "I am my father's eldest daughter. My sword is not the Sword of Love he holds, but it's no lesser in my hands, and worked only by my will".
 
Giving out a name is tricky. I mean, what if they are stupid enough to try to conjure by it? The elder vampire might be able to try to utilize True Names in some way. Something poetic, but enough that the elder understands our identity is probably better. Something along the lines of "I am my father's eldest daughter. My sword is not the Sword of Love he holds, but it's no lesser in my hands, and worked only by my will".
Thats not how True Names work. At all.

Your True Name is your full name as received from your mouth, and undergoes change as you accumulate life experience. Molly Carpenter is not our True Name. Margaret Katherine Amanda Carpenter used to be our Name before we Exalted.
Now, it has probably changed quite a bit. And will keep changing.

And that assumes that True Names work against Infernals and their native countermagic.

Harry Dresden's name is in the phone book, and his full name is in the system.
Nicodemus Archleone and his entire family go by their names. So do the Angels, both Fallen and loyalists. Mab is Mab's name. Its not her full Name, but its part of it. All the Senior Council go by their birth names. I could go on.

Giving out your name is not just polite, its accepted practice.
 
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Its also worth noting that the Skavis Elder here has no motive to pick a fight.
He has a niece whose wellbeing depends on Molly's good will.
And Molly is, to his own senses, a pretty magically potent entity in her own right.

Investigation yes. Thats just prudent.
Picking a fight with something he thinks is at least as as strong and skilled as a Jade Court enlightened boddithsava is not something he's going to do lightly.

Because, seriously, look up what a Kuei Jin boddithsava is supposed to be capable of.
They are appallingly powerful.
 
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Strongly disagree.

There is a minimum amount of working knowledge thats necessary to operate in supernatural society.
People need to know where they stand with you and your affiliation.
And its knowledge that has to be out there anyway. Some of its knowledge that we have already put out.

Lets remember that Im the guy who always advocates that we minimize the information we give out.
So Im not exactly thrilled at the prospect. But we've made commitments, and our reputation depends on how we cleave to them.

And I am not saying that we tell them we are an Infernal Exalt born in Arctis Tor.
They cant demand that anyway. Anymore than they can ask a Jade Court elder who his mentors were.
But they do need to know that we are Molly Carpenter, and something Other, and not bound to any existing Powers.
Personal reputation is important, but that minimum information is more about what you do than how you do it. There are also modifications that apply based on what sort of interaction we want to have. Right now we don't want anything they won't do with someone they assume to be part of the Jade court.

It's also worth noting this is a pretty hostile first encounter, simple veiled exchanges are about the norm for this. Not killing each other and fulfilling all agreements made is a fantastic result all told.

They only need a more definite introduction if and when we do repeat business where it matters.
We CAN keep Bella as a minion if we want to. I am not sure we do, though.
And we DONT know what faction OldSkavis is affiliated with.

They dont have to be friends to be useful.
Marcone is not our friend. Neither is Mab. Doesnt mean that they cant be useful, or that we we cant find useful people and allies in their factions and associates. Just like Dresden has useful people in Summer, despite Titania being hostile to him.

And this is information that will be out there anyway.
We already have the Jade Dogs in employ, we're looking out for Whampires underground, and Thomas being a business partner is going to get around soon enough. This shit cant stay secret. Not unless you think the opposition are wholly incompetent.

Lara Raith already had someone call our father after the car auction.
Note that none of those people are the type to explain themselves to others, especially in hostile environments. As things progress we can share more, but right now we're basically at "coyotes circling each other over an insensate rabbit"/10 on the relationship scale. Anything more than a minimum of details to resolve the current situation and leave a hook for something more stable if we want to try doing actual business is unnecessary.

You're also assuming here that once people know something it's instantly available to everyone. From a security perspective it's wise to plan for that, but on a practical level that isn't how it works. Lara isn't exactly running a news blog in her off hours.

They'll eventually find stuff out, but how long that takes is an important factor. If they don't make the connection for a month for the low price of doing nothing then why would we say anything?

The QM has said this before about it being in service to us or an organization we control.
We cant just have MiS work in response to random charity work iirc.

And its worth remembering we assumed a commitment to the kid unprompted.
We are kinda beholden not to fuck it up.
For her sake, and for others.

And where does this idea of fighting the White Court come from?
Thomas Raith is our financial guy, remember? The White King's son, and Lara Raith's brother?
It's part of one of the default options, presumably there's a way to frame the orders to make it work.

I'll agree we have some degree of responsibility for the commitment we took up, but I don't think it goes further than sharing the conditions they're working with. Telling them how MiS works directly isn't nothing.

As to the bit about fighting the court; I'm not talking about an inquisition, but we just learned some heavy stuff about their operations.

I can't see Molly standing aside and ignoring it, even if she should probably have expected it from the white court. Greene's plan is crazy, but my assumption is that we'll be doing something to act on what we've learned.
 
Personal reputation is important, but that minimum information is more about what you do than how you do it. There are also modifications that apply based on what sort of interaction we want to have. Right now we don't want anything they won't do with someone they assume to be part of the Jade court.

It's also worth noting this is a pretty hostile first encounter, simple veiled exchanges are about the norm for this. Not killing each other and fulfilling all agreements made is a fantastic result all told.
They only need a more definite introduction if and when we do repeat business where it matters.
1)Its about what you do and what your affiliations are.

Nobody expects you to reveal how your power works, and noone is asking that Molly do so.
Thats not supernatural etiquette in the Dresdenverse.
Note how the Library didnt ask that, and McCoy didny either.



2)No it isnt a hostile first encounter.
This is actually a pretty mundane first encounter by Dresden Files standards.
Look at the allies Dresden has had to rely on, and who have saved his life.

Marcone had him strongarmed by thugs in Storm Front before saving his life in Dead Beat and White Night.
Lea wanted to turn him into a dog in Grave Peril before helping him in Proven Guilty and Changes, and training his apprentice when he was dead.

He threw iron at Mab in Summer Knight; in retaliation she had him stab his own hand, and yet she gave him critical info in Dead Beat, and saved his life in Small Favor.

Lara Raith shot him in the ear in Blood Rites, saved his ass later in the book, and arranged medevac for Molly in Changes.
Gard's wards severely injured Bob in Death Masks iirc and she saved his life in Dead Beat .
Kincaid accosted Dresden with a gun to the head in Death Masks, and threatened to shoot him for late payment.


By comparison all we've done is talk; we didnt even exchange threats or point weapons at each other.
This has been pretty mannerly.
And yes, it says a ton about surprise encounters in the Dresdenverse, and why reputation matters.

Note that none of those people are the type to explain themselves to others, especially in hostile environments. As things progress we can share more, but right now we're basically at "coyotes circling each other over an insensate rabbit"/10 on the relationship scale. Anything more than a minimum of details to resolve the current situation and leave a hook for something more stable if we want to try doing actual business is unnecessary.

You're also assuming here that once people know something it's instantly available to everyone. From a security perspective it's wise to plan for that, but on a practical level that isn't how it works. Lara isn't exactly running a news blog in her off hours.

They'll eventually find stuff out, but how long that takes is an important factor. If they don't make the connection for a month for the low price of doing nothing then why would we say anything?
1)Not actually true.
Of the Whamps we see onscreen, they all explain themselves just fine. Lara and Thomas are regulars and both explain themselves., Tania Raith we saw in Jury Duty, and she explained herself. Charles Barrowhill we see in the Bigfoot stories, and he explains himself.

Even fucking Madrigal Raith explained himself and his motives in Proven Guilty when he was trying to sell Dresden on Ebay.


2)The White Court already knows much of this shit. It just hasnt occurred to OldSkavis to ask because we havent met before.

Lara Raith and her people know, because they called Michael Carpenter's cellphone after the Black Rider car auction, and Molly is still walking around, living in the Carpenter house.
And driving the same car with a spirit inside it.

If OldSkavis leaves here, he is going to go up the chain to report why Sarah Greene is still alive, because a presumed Jade Court boddithsava in Chicago is a Big Deal.
And its not going to require a genius to put it together.

This entire contortion being proposed?
We are being deceptive, and damaging our reputation for nothing.

It's part of one of the default options, presumably there's a way to frame the orders to make it work.
I'll agree we have some degree of responsibility for the commitment we took up, but I don't think it goes further than sharing the conditions they're working with. Telling them how MiS works directly isn't nothing.

As to the bit about fighting the court; I'm not talking about an inquisition, but we just learned some heavy stuff about their operations. I can't see Molly standing aside and ignoring it, even if she should probably have expected it from the white court. Greene's plan is crazy, but my assumption is that we'll be doing something to act on what we've learned.
Yes. Like setting up a charity and taking her on as an employee. Which is a lot more effort and contortion than simply talkimg to the girl and her guardian.

We have told the Jade Dogs how MiS works.
They are drawing other people to them. We told Thomas we couldnt keep it secret.
This is not something that we can use in secret.


There's a difference between opposing (some)White Court operations and actually fighting the White Court.
Spiking the operations you disapprove of is more or less standard operating procedure in the supernatural world and its jockeying for power and position. The Knights shut down stuff they come across that offends their sensibilities.

Thats not a fight.

We arent about to start going after mundane but distasteful White Court operations like their night clubs and porn studios, any more than we are currently going after the Marcone brothels health clubs we already know exist in Chicago.
Like the one Helen Beckitt runs.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 24, 2023 at 7:02 PM, finished with 56 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of essence... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder.
    -[X] Should she make use the gifts her hunger grants her, she would not lose control, but would need to replenish the energy expended
    -[X] Get her e-mail address and phone number, and give her a burner e-mail to contact you in exchange
    -[X] STUNT: "Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of essence... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder". You fish out Clippy from your pocket, moving it in such a way to make sure that the faces of the vampires are caught in their lenses: "Now, what e-mail and phone number can I use to contact you later? I feel we should talk more when after you had time to process. And to keep you, and more importantly, your hunger, occupied, I give you this command - prepare for our next meeting. Learn of the supernatural. Meditate on what path you wish to follow. Do your homework."
    [X] Be honest as far as it goes, as long as she obeys you
    -[X] Explain who you are
    [X] Your hunger is merely forestalled for the duration of your service. To tame it, it must be sated with a mortal life's worth of chi... through there is no requirement to partake from one who contains merely one lifetime's worth. I must admit curiosity as to what you will choose - few of the Hungry can say their soul is yet unstained by murder.
 
1)Its about what you do and what your affiliations are.
That's a fair point, but I don't think this is particularly damaging to us because this is a conflict we're in. We haven't given or broken our word and we haven't claimed anything even if we've implied it. White vampires have zero room to complain about stuff like this.

2)No it isnt a hostile first encounter.
We've nearly voted to kill them both multiple times now, so I think it's pretty hostile. If either of us thought we could win I think we'd be stabbing each other right now.

Note that in the examples you listed they tended to work together because they had to. Either due to coercion, immediate mutual interests, or simple unwillingness/inability to follow through on the grudge. Dresden made no secret of the fact that he'd be coming for Marcone when he'd cleared space at the top of his list.

We don't really have anything pushing us to make nice.

Your examples don't really directly apply, because those explanations are either part of an exchange that can't be made without it or else monologuing that backfires in the same scene.

Old skavis can probably learn some stuff, but the white court is a pit of vipers who love screwing with each other. He can't exactly walk up and ask for a copy of Lara's newsletter just because he's a member.

As to reporting it, he's currently covering up for Madrigal right now. This isn't an official white court op and his ability to discuss it without causing himself trouble are limited. The failure himself will probably learn, and it'll get put together eventually, but I don't expect immediate cooperation on their end of the street.

I also disagree on the reputation damage. The key point in a good supernatural reputation is keeping your agreements. Tricking people with their own assumptions is an incredibly common tactic for a wide variety of creatures who still have good working reps.

This is also a fairly minor incident over all; if we came in making big claims or something it'd be a problem, but at the moment this is still low key enough to be closer to the type of trick the white court respects.
This is us getting into definition games again. I'd qualify shutting down their places because we don't like them as fighting them, even if we don't mail a declaration of war to Lara.

As to the rest; people respond to tragedy they can see more readily than they do to what they can't. It isn't wholly rational, but it is nearly universal.

I don't see Molly learning the gory details of something like this and not trying to do something. Greene's idea is crazy, but there's a spectrum of responses to be made here.
 
Edit: Indecisiveness, back to my original vote

[X] Be honest as far as it goes, as long as she obeys you
-[X] Explain who you are
 
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That's a fair point, but I don't think this is particularly damaging to us because this is a conflict we're in. We haven't given or broken our word and we haven't claimed anything even if we've implied it. White vampires have zero room to complain about stuff like thi
This is absolutely damaging to us.

Its as shifty as when the Reds dosed the drinks at a diplomatic reception with venom and claimed it wasnt poison because it was given to everyone, including their own people. Or when the Red King used a translator to make a deal so he could claim that he didnt say anything, so he wasnt obliged to uphold it.

This shit is why the Reds have such a bad rep.
We dont want to join them.

We've nearly voted to kill them both multiple times now, so I think it's pretty hostile. If either of us thought we could win I think we'd be stabbing each other right now.

Note that in the examples you listed they tended to work together because they had to. Either due to coercion, immediate mutual interests, or simple unwillingness/inability to follow through on the grudge
. Dresden made no secret of the fact that he'd be coming for Marcone when he'd cleared space at the top of his list.

We don't really have anything pushing us to make nice.
Dresden actually attacked the Leanansidhe with Amoracchius.
Like I said, by Dresdenverse terms, this is pretty mannerly for a surprise meeting between potential hostiles.
Our thinking about attack =/= attack.


Marcone and Gard saved Dresden from being eaten by a ghoul in Dead Beat after Corpsetaker wrecked him.
No coercion, no promises, no obligations.
Dresden got Marcone to save a bunch of people in White Night by saying please. No extra payment.

Lara Raith had no obligation to let Dresden go at the end of Blood Rites; they were on Raith lands, and disappearing the only wizard in Chicago would have left her a free hand in the city.
She let him walk.

There are benefits to having a predictable and honorable reputation.
People dont go out of their way to screw you when they get the opportunity.
Your examples don't really directly apply, because those explanations are either part of an exchange that can't be made without it or else monologuing that backfires in the same scene.

Old skavis can probably learn some stuff, but the white court is a pit of vipers who love screwing with each other. He can't exactly walk up and ask for a copy of Lara's newsletter just because he's a member.

As to reporting it, he's currently covering up for Madrigal right now. This isn't an official white court op and his ability to discuss it without causing himself trouble are limited. The failure himself will probably learn, and it'll get put together eventually, but I don't expect immediate cooperation on their end of the street.

I also disagree on the reputation damage. The key point in a good supernatural reputation is keeping your agreements. Tricking people with their own assumptions is an incredibly common tactic for a wide variety of creatures who still have good working reps.

This is also a fairly minor incident over all; if we came in making big claims or something it'd be a problem, but at the moment this is still low key enough to be closer to the type of trick the white court respects.
1)Yes they very much do.
None of those were monlogues. They were talks, negotiations, offers. Even Madrigal Raith wasnt monologuing; Dresden was trying to get him to talk, and later to ask the White Council for a ransom(he did, they declined to pay).


2)A Jade Court boddithsava in town is A. Very. Big. Deal.
Forget the political side of the Jade Court apparently taking action in the West, which they have apparently seldom done.
In WoD terms a Kuei Jin buddha is supposed to be equivalent to Kindred Methuselahs.

It would be like having the Red King send a Lord of Outer Night to Chicago.
This has escalated well past anything Madrigal Raith could hope to keep a lid on; OldSkavis will be going to the top of any hierarchy he has access to, and calling a lot of people once he gets out of here.


3)Feel free to disagree.
But the fact remains that in the supernatural world, there are very few arbitration authorities. As a consequence? People have to trust you(or be desperate) to do business with you, or they will take elaborate precautions upfront. Or charge exorbitantly.

Your reputation materially affects the willingness of people to take the risk of business or diplomacy with you.
Once you begin ruleslawyering encounters and dealings with people, people's willingness to give you the benefit of the doubt goes down.

And we are an Infernal, which means we already start with a malus to our reputation among large swathes of the supernatural.
We cannot afford to worsen it.
We will be dealing with the White Court for years. What we do here sets a tone.

This is us getting into definition games again. I'd qualify shutting down their places because we don't like them as fighting them, even if we don't mail a declaration of war to Lara. As to the rest; people respond to tragedy they can see more readily than they do to what they can't. It isn't wholly rational, but it is nearly universal.

I don't see Molly learning the gory details of something like this and not trying to do something. Greene's idea is crazy, but there's a spectrum of responses to be made here.
I do not agree.

Molly spent several months living outside of her home in the backstory of this quest. She literally cleaned up post-combat in a Marcone brothel after killing Kattrin. The idea of the sex trade and ancillary businesses is not a shock to her. She is very aware of it. She's not crusading over it.

Human trafficking? Coercion and largescale blackmail? Subversion of the govt? Yes, that will get action. People being hired under more or less human practices? Disapproval is as far as it is going to go, but she isnt going to actively go after them.Evidence from Blood Rites suggest that the Whites dont lean very hard on active powers in that business anyway.

They dont have to, because human proclivities.
 
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