Looks like it's neck and neck between Averlornian Ancestry and Student of the Anvil. I coooould chose to sway the vote in either's favor but I'd like someone else to decide b/c I can hardly decide between the two. On one hand we get better at Diplomacy and become what might possibly be the most sexy and majestic buff elf ever, or we can start doing our own forging and possibly start making our own Fireclaws a decade or century down the line to bring superior Elven gunnery to the uncultured swine.
Mercenary Mage Quest: Asur Dogs of War in Warhammer Fantasy
- Thread starter Blackout
- Start date
- Fantasy
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, I voted for both so I could get rid of a vote and sway things, but I'm ambivalent as to which I'd pick. I honestly want both. Maybe if nobody else makes a decision or someone makes a convincing argument.
However, upon reflection, I do like both better than Commander of the Ind Campaigns, so I've removed my vote for that and made it more likely it'll be one of the two.
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[X] [ARTEFACT] Lightfang
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame
[X] [TRAITS] Sapherian Tutelage
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Spear
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Anvil
[X] [TRAITS] Avelornian Ancestry
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame
[X] [TRAITS] Sapherian Tutelage
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Spear
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Anvil
[X] [TRAITS] Avelornian Ancestry
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
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- Location
- Singapore
So , I am looking at the tally right now, and I think it's worth doing an analysis especially since the top 3 votes are probably quite locked in right now, because they command clear majority of the votes cast so far (42).
Right now, Blood of Anaerion is 25 votes yes to 5 votes no. A 20-vote deficit is challenging to overturn without some rather active and convincing debate that wins over defections and motivates new voters to go for no. Not impossible, just difficult.
But should this happen, these are the traits likely to win because they have a clear lead over the other options and all command decisive majorities or even Super-majorities.
What does this tell us? Fanriel is a very curious magic Academic (curious and adventurous enough to steal an Old one plaque) from the White Tower, of the appropriate seniority to have been one of Teclis tutor's in the White Tower. As a Student of Dreams, her discipline over her mind and soul is very strong, at the level of a master. So whatever drove her to steal an Old One Plaque, must be really spectacular or severe enough to overcome that discipline, despite knowing the laws of Ulthuan prohibit this on the pain of exile.
Fanriel is a war-hero of sorts, we survived impossible odds as a Mage fighting at the Shrine of Asuryan fighting likely in support of the Phoenix Guard. If Fanriel is of the blood of Anaerion, Fanriel is likely on N'kari's shitlist, so she is on Slanneesh's crosshairs. If she is not, she is just a highborn veteran of Ulthuan's millennial-long war against Chaos.
Next comes the three choices that being an heir of Anerion gets us, as current votes stand. Things can still change, because two of these choices are within a three-vote swing of dropping out of 6th place, and if this current vote crosses 50+ votes, that's a very thin margin.
Colonist is probably important to reinforce Fanriel's mental health, and as has been noted, likely means she has Wanderlust. She has the blood of Chrace, Yrvesse flowing through her veins. Chrace and Yrvesse are outer kingdoms, so it won't surprise me that Fanriel is more likely to be from the ranks of the Merchant nobility, rather than the Landowning nobility if the Colonists win.
In the Chracian Mother option, Fanriel doesn't fit the stereotype of female elves. She's not dainty, she's muscular, taller, broader and probably stronger than most Elves and very, very fit. We probably won't have Teclis variant of the Curse of Anaerion (poorer health) if we take Chracian, and I think the voters afraid of the curse are scared that Fanriel's version resembles Tyrion.
A Chracian mother and Yrvessian father may well be not just a political alliance, but a business alliance. If the sixth slot is Student of the Flame, I suspect the Merchant Princess background is much more likely.
I suspect if we were a Student of the Shadow for the sixth slot, our background won't just be Loremaster of Hoeth, but Swordmaster of Hoeth.
Alas, these two options are nowhere near in contention for the sixth slot. There are probably around five contenders within the range of three votes of getting the sixth slot.
The background implications of the two are very different.
Averlonian Ancestry almost certainly makes Fanriel's blood even bluer. It won't surprise me if Fanriel was Male, he would have been in theoretical contention to succeed Finubar level of nobility. The psychological blow of being exiled, is probably steeper, even if offset by Dream and Colonists. Her high diplomacy is probably because she was trained thoroughly by her family to be a player in Ulthuani court politics, or at least a socialite/negotiator connecting players together. Make no mistake, you are voting for a politician, one that has lost the game and is now exiled.
Student of Anvil suggest something different - while Fanriel is not a specialist creator, creating magical artifacts was an interest of hers that she pursued for fun. I suspect it's not part of her main job before her exile, but a side-hobby that she did as leisure. Psychologically speaking, making stuff probably helps Fanriel feel happier and more grounded. And without being of recent Everqueen Descent, the fall into exile probably isn't as high. This probably also implies that Fanriel was less involved in politics, if not taken with Averlon
Can both pass? Yes, but I think the Chracian Heritage is the most likely to be pushed out in that case. If Averlon and Anvil does pass, then Fanriel might well be someone trained to do politics, but preferred to tinker with her amateur creations for fun in her sparetime. It would make for an interesting character, if Fanriel would rather have been born a Smith than a highborn politician, and so Exile might ironically be liberating.
These all have different implications and likely imply that Fanriel is a professional senior officer of the Ultuani military.
Commander of the Ind Campaigns means she's high ranking General or at least a Staff Officer, able to command entire Campaigns, and served on the Everqueen own Command Staff. It's possible that she may still have allies and friends among the Everqueen's own court, but the Phoenix King's laws had to be respected. You combine it with Averlon Ancestry, and it won't surprise me that there's a possibility Fanriel was a Handmaiden at one time.
Hero of the Black Gulf means Fanriel is an Ulthuani Naval-Captain, with alot of experience commanding a Ship. It's quite possible she still has allies and friends among the Ulthauni Navy, possibly up to Aislinn himself. But the Phoenix King Laws must be respected. It also means Fanriel starts her exile with a possible friend she can turn to to help her get established, even if it's a Dawi who owes her a big favor. This is likely the boat option.
Warrior of the Wailing Fen means Fanriel is not a commanding officer. She's a specialist battle-mage, and very, very good at actually counter-spelling a full-blown Lesser Daemon of Tzeentch. She's most definitely on Tzeentch's shit-list, and it won't surprise me if a Tzeenthchian plot was behind her exile. It's the option which makes Fanriel even better against enemy mages in general, not just a decent mage. Warrior of Wailing Fen, Student of Saphery + Chracian Blood does sound like a Mage killer build.
So three options. General, Admiral or Specialist. All implies a more involved career in the military.
Right now, Blood of Anaerion is 25 votes yes to 5 votes no. A 20-vote deficit is challenging to overturn without some rather active and convincing debate that wins over defections and motivates new voters to go for no. Not impossible, just difficult.
But should this happen, these are the traits likely to win because they have a clear lead over the other options and all command decisive majorities or even Super-majorities.
What does this tell us? Fanriel is a very curious magic Academic (curious and adventurous enough to steal an Old one plaque) from the White Tower, of the appropriate seniority to have been one of Teclis tutor's in the White Tower. As a Student of Dreams, her discipline over her mind and soul is very strong, at the level of a master. So whatever drove her to steal an Old One Plaque, must be really spectacular or severe enough to overcome that discipline, despite knowing the laws of Ulthuan prohibit this on the pain of exile.
Fanriel is a war-hero of sorts, we survived impossible odds as a Mage fighting at the Shrine of Asuryan fighting likely in support of the Phoenix Guard. If Fanriel is of the blood of Anaerion, Fanriel is likely on N'kari's shitlist, so she is on Slanneesh's crosshairs. If she is not, she is just a highborn veteran of Ulthuan's millennial-long war against Chaos.
Next comes the three choices that being an heir of Anerion gets us, as current votes stand. Things can still change, because two of these choices are within a three-vote swing of dropping out of 6th place, and if this current vote crosses 50+ votes, that's a very thin margin.
Colonist is probably important to reinforce Fanriel's mental health, and as has been noted, likely means she has Wanderlust. She has the blood of Chrace, Yrvesse flowing through her veins. Chrace and Yrvesse are outer kingdoms, so it won't surprise me that Fanriel is more likely to be from the ranks of the Merchant nobility, rather than the Landowning nobility if the Colonists win.
In the Chracian Mother option, Fanriel doesn't fit the stereotype of female elves. She's not dainty, she's muscular, taller, broader and probably stronger than most Elves and very, very fit. We probably won't have Teclis variant of the Curse of Anaerion (poorer health) if we take Chracian, and I think the voters afraid of the curse are scared that Fanriel's version resembles Tyrion.
A Chracian mother and Yrvessian father may well be not just a political alliance, but a business alliance. If the sixth slot is Student of the Flame, I suspect the Merchant Princess background is much more likely.
I suspect if we were a Student of the Shadow for the sixth slot, our background won't just be Loremaster of Hoeth, but Swordmaster of Hoeth.
Alas, these two options are nowhere near in contention for the sixth slot. There are probably around five contenders within the range of three votes of getting the sixth slot.
The background implications of the two are very different.
Averlonian Ancestry almost certainly makes Fanriel's blood even bluer. It won't surprise me if Fanriel was Male, he would have been in theoretical contention to succeed Finubar level of nobility. The psychological blow of being exiled, is probably steeper, even if offset by Dream and Colonists. Her high diplomacy is probably because she was trained thoroughly by her family to be a player in Ulthuani court politics, or at least a socialite/negotiator connecting players together. Make no mistake, you are voting for a politician, one that has lost the game and is now exiled.
Student of Anvil suggest something different - while Fanriel is not a specialist creator, creating magical artifacts was an interest of hers that she pursued for fun. I suspect it's not part of her main job before her exile, but a side-hobby that she did as leisure. Psychologically speaking, making stuff probably helps Fanriel feel happier and more grounded. And without being of recent Everqueen Descent, the fall into exile probably isn't as high. This probably also implies that Fanriel was less involved in politics, if not taken with Averlon
Can both pass? Yes, but I think the Chracian Heritage is the most likely to be pushed out in that case. If Averlon and Anvil does pass, then Fanriel might well be someone trained to do politics, but preferred to tinker with her amateur creations for fun in her sparetime. It would make for an interesting character, if Fanriel would rather have been born a Smith than a highborn politician, and so Exile might ironically be liberating.
These all have different implications and likely imply that Fanriel is a professional senior officer of the Ultuani military.
Commander of the Ind Campaigns means she's high ranking General or at least a Staff Officer, able to command entire Campaigns, and served on the Everqueen own Command Staff. It's possible that she may still have allies and friends among the Everqueen's own court, but the Phoenix King's laws had to be respected. You combine it with Averlon Ancestry, and it won't surprise me that there's a possibility Fanriel was a Handmaiden at one time.
Hero of the Black Gulf means Fanriel is an Ulthuani Naval-Captain, with alot of experience commanding a Ship. It's quite possible she still has allies and friends among the Ulthauni Navy, possibly up to Aislinn himself. But the Phoenix King Laws must be respected. It also means Fanriel starts her exile with a possible friend she can turn to to help her get established, even if it's a Dawi who owes her a big favor. This is likely the boat option.
Warrior of the Wailing Fen means Fanriel is not a commanding officer. She's a specialist battle-mage, and very, very good at actually counter-spelling a full-blown Lesser Daemon of Tzeentch. She's most definitely on Tzeentch's shit-list, and it won't surprise me if a Tzeenthchian plot was behind her exile. It's the option which makes Fanriel even better against enemy mages in general, not just a decent mage. Warrior of Wailing Fen, Student of Saphery + Chracian Blood does sound like a Mage killer build.
So three options. General, Admiral or Specialist. All implies a more involved career in the military.
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So to be clear, I don't consider this an argument for so much as a relevant details from which people can make up their own minds. I'm just going to walk through my thought process.
We're likely getting Colonist, which means that we don't have a diplomatic malus with humans anymore. This, to me, diminishes the use of Avelornian ancestry a bit because we're going to be kicking around in the Old World. Humans are going to be our main employers and in the Old World many of the foes we fight are not going to be the kind of people we can negotiate with (Undead, Norscan raiders, Chaos armies from the north, Beastmen, Greenskins, Skaven).
The Dawi will also be there but they will mostly hate us for being Elgi as well as fill the rest of the hate quota with the fact that they can't take our runic gromil blade. Whilst a diplomatic boost would be of use with negotiating with dwarves we a) are a Princess (bonus to all stats), b) are a Loremaster (another bonus to all stats) and getting Dawi to actually listen to us is going to be difficult even if we did take the Diplomacy boost from Averlornian ancestry.
Comparing that with the ability to flat out make magic items and further develop the skill, well, that's less situational in my opinion, despite the fact that it will require an investment each time. It's always possible, we might just judge it's sub-optimal. As opposed to the myriad of difficulties we will have dealing with the dwarves regardless.
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- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
[X] [ARTEFACT] Silverine Plate
boost to combat power and more importantly survivability
Blood of Aenarion
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
burn fast and bright
[X] [TRAITS] Sapherian Tutelage
extra magic is key
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Dreams
required
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist
avoid that malus
[X] [TRAITS] Chracian Blood
as a loremaster we need Prowess
[X] [TRAITS] Warrior of the Wailing Fen
Counterspelling is valuable
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame:
anti Chaos
boost to combat power and more importantly survivability
Blood of Aenarion
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
burn fast and bright
[X] [TRAITS] Sapherian Tutelage
extra magic is key
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Dreams
required
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist
avoid that malus
[X] [TRAITS] Chracian Blood
as a loremaster we need Prowess
[X] [TRAITS] Warrior of the Wailing Fen
Counterspelling is valuable
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame:
anti Chaos
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The thing here is that the two stack. Removing the penalty and then getting a bonus on top of it makes us actually a really excellent diplomat with serious expertise in the field, while removing the penalty alone probably just makes us, y'know, okay at it. Having already invested a Trait into Diplomacy, a second to really specialize is fairly appealing.
Like, I don't disagree that most of our Diplomacy will be with humans, I just don't think that makes being an expert Diplomat as opposed to a competent one notably less valuable.
I don't disagree that magic items are cool and gonna be useful, but AP hell is a real thing and we already likely have a lot of magical projects to invest time and effort into. Diplomacy is something we'll be forced to roll, probably regularly, while making magic items is something that we might get to do if we have the time.
And I think I've now talked myself into going for Avelornian Ancestry instead of Student of the Anvil. It was thinking about AP hell that did it.
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I actually hadn't considered the expert diplomat point and I haven't really been been thinking about the AP hell given that I'm not sure what Blackout envisages for us. However, no matter how much free time we have on our hands we could either be investing it all in more magic or split between magic and magic items.
I'm going to have a think about it but I might switch my vote from Anvil to Averlorn on the basis of that, despite having been a huge proponent of Anvil over Averlorn. I'm not sure, but I'm thinking about it seriously now. Well argued.
And I've done it. I'm sad, in a way, amusingly enough I kind of feel like I'm betraying the me from a few hours ago. But the arguments were good and whilst not making magic items will be sad, we will have access to 8 lores of magic to improve on so it's hardly like we're lacking in the magic department.
I'm also really interested in how Fanriel will adapt to this lifestyle change - given that she was basically at the pinnacle of Asur high society and is now an exile. When you couple this with the fact that she's a premier diplomat - that's both both compelling as a character feature and just plain useful.
Additionally, there might well be very good value in being able to negotiate people into surrender so no lives our lost if there are human on human contracts. It also means that we've got a better chance of avoiding fights with people that we don't actually want to fight. I like the option of being able to de-escalate.
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[X] [ARTEFACT] Lightfang
[X] [TRAITS] Avelornian Ancestry
[X] [TRAITS] Chracian Blood
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist
[X] [TRAITS] Commander of the Ind Campaigns
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Spear
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
I was tempted to take the vs Human bonus instead and pick fights with chaos worshippers, but decided that monster hunting is better. It's not as if there are no chaos monsters.
[X] [TRAITS] Avelornian Ancestry
[X] [TRAITS] Chracian Blood
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist
[X] [TRAITS] Commander of the Ind Campaigns
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Spear
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
I was tempted to take the vs Human bonus instead and pick fights with chaos worshippers, but decided that monster hunting is better. It's not as if there are no chaos monsters.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
If we want both Avelornian Ancestry and Student of the Anvil, we could consider trying to drop one of Chracian Blood or Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame... I think we are good enough at Prowess and Chaos-killing that we can consider dropping one of those two traits, since there's no need to overspecialize in those areas (Prowess should be pretty high from Exiled Princess + Loremaster and Yvresse already boosts Martial and Prowess when fighting Chaos).
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'd personally be perfectly willing to drop Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame, but it's not happening, people love that one. And it's certainly defensible as a good anti-Chaos trait.
Chracian Blood, meanwhile, for me, is a similar situation to Avelornian Ancestry...it's a bonus to an area we're going to need to roll very regularly while Student of the Anvil is something that provides us with an option we may lack opportunities to utilize.
It's a good thought and I'm glad you brought it up, but personally I'm going to stick with what we have now - a flat buff to prowess from Chracian Blood will always be useful since we're a mercenary and fighting is our job now. Additionally, the combo of Chrace and Averlorn means we're going to be a super good looking elf princess who's absolutely shredded which I think is great.
As for the battle of the Holy Flame? Well, that's a really fun tie in with canon and being a descendant of Aenarion for me. Helps make the world feel more alive (take that N'Kari!).
And from a more serious perspective, I really like the idea of kicking Chaos' teeth in. Thematically it works because we're Aenarion's blood and a high elf princess from the pinnacle of Asur society - it's the kind of noble standard we'd want to live up to, even in exile. But I also like the idea from the simple perspective of a questor in the thread - fighting the forces Chaos will be fun. They're an incredibly varied series of groups so we won't have be fighting the same people over and over again and beyond that I doubt I'm going to feel sorry for people serving the any of the major or minor chaos gods when we stab them.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
In my eyes, Student of the Anvil is more useful than either of the 2 Prowess I've mentioned. I could be wrong about this, but Prowess can be increased and/or compensated for through various means (training, equipment, magic and so on), while artifact creation is something that is, at best, hard to obtain outside of having it as a starting trait and would offer us some much needed versatility, outside from our good areas of Prowess, Martial, anti-Chaos, Diplomacy, Magic, resistance to corruption and Learning. There's still time to overtake Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame, even though it is popular...
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Prowess is something you can never have too much of, though. Like, you will never be in a fight and say 'Wow, I wish I hadn't invested in fighting as much'. Especially in Warhammer with Chaos having a grudge against us...we're probably not gonna be as badass as a Greater Daemon, and no amount of Prowess will ever be overkill until we are.
And yeah, artifact crafting adds versatility, but I'm not sure it's much needed, or needed at all to be honest. The whole schtick of Loremasters of Hoeth is that they're jacks of all trades, and the choice explicitly came with bonuses to all stats (which were already high from the exiled Princess choice)...we're gonna be very versatile, with objectively fairly high ratings in every stat and access to every Wind of magic. Like, we are already exceedingly versatile.
As for Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame, I'm skeptical, but you can try. I never voted for it, so I can't withdraw a vote and help directly. It's a really solid fit thematically, too, which makes arguing against it a lot harder.
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Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
Challenge Accepted!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Challenge Accepted!
I meant as a starting character. I'm entirely down with getting to this point ASAP, I'm just doubtful that we'll be there right off the bat. It's also worth noting that we'll likely be able to defeat one significantly before we're actually on par given our numerous bonuses vs. Chaos specifically.
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[X] [ARTEFACT] Lightfang
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame:
[X] [TRAITS] Sapherian Tutelage
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Spear
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Anvil
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Dreams
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist:
[X] [TRAITS] Avelornian Ancestry
I like evas idea, and tbh ive picked avelornian ancestry partly for diplo and party to play into the elven stereotype.
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame:
[X] [TRAITS] Sapherian Tutelage
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Spear
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Anvil
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Dreams
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist:
[X] [TRAITS] Avelornian Ancestry
I like evas idea, and tbh ive picked avelornian ancestry partly for diplo and party to play into the elven stereotype.
[X] [ARTEFACT] Lightfang
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame
[X] [TRAITS] Sapherian Tutelage
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Spear
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Anvil
[X] [TRAITS] Avelornian Ancestry
[X] [BLOOD] Yes
[X] [TRAITS] Survivor of the Battle of the Holy Flame
[X] [TRAITS] Sapherian Tutelage
[X] [TRAITS] Colonist
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Spear
[X] [TRAITS] Student of the Anvil
[X] [TRAITS] Avelornian Ancestry
[X] [BLOOD] Yes