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“Human Resources” Shouldn’t Be This Literal: A PMMM/ProjectMoon Quest

Would you Distort or manifest EGO?

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diplomacy said:
Angela: I'm a strong, independent toaster who don't need no crutches like wishes to achieve my dreams
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Angela's history about wishes and their consequences thereof when given an *easy* way to make them true is likely to make her react to us discussing it in the same way I do, with a giant no written in flaming neon pink letters that are several kilometers long.


questioningmeme said:
There are essentially no definitive downsides to Wishing that X cannot overcome based on what we know about her right now.
The problem is the unknowns that come with wishing as an incomplete Abnormality.
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We know the system is rigged to make grief more prominent, given that X has not demonstrated any ability to control her own psyche with lobotomy, that right there is a definitive downside to wishing that we know of right now.

Seriously, wishing is, has always been, will always be, a trap, we don't need it, will never need it, it not not something we should even contemplate as a possibility.

questioningmeme said:
The current State of Homura is actually a near-perfect opportunity to test out what Wishing will do to X.
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If you ate thinking on having her rewind us:

Reminder that we are already resistant to it, it both cost too much energy from her to attempt and is very likely to fail outright, or even make the situation worse via unknown interactions

Talow said:
I somehow doubt Angela is truly Immortal. Would honestly rather get one of the abnormalities to do it, if at all possibly.
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Good thing we are one!

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questioningmeme said:
We need to turn Homura back to normal again. That wind-up key is such a horrible hazard for both Homura and her friends.
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No, we need to remove her need for the key to be needed, turning her back to *normal* is optional as long as she is mentally healthy at the end of it.
 
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Nyarky said:
No, we need to remove her need for the key to be needed, turning her back to *normal* is optional as long as she is mentally healthy at the end of it.
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No.
We need to turn her mentality back to normal too. Both her key and her current mindset are extremely harmful. Her current state of mentality is literally "Emotions are useless".

It's not just the key. Her entire robot state is bad for her health. We seriously need to deal with it before she starts running around forcing people to spin her key at gun point.
 
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One thing that you should note is that the robot state is the symptom not necessarily the cause. My current take is that for Nyarky he wants to change the mental state but not necessarily the body. My personal problem with distortions is that they represent that person refusing to change in any way. I also agree that if one can change back the mind but not the body then they can go for that but for Homura it seems unlikely considering that Homura sees that body as the representation of the mental state (namely that of an unnamed soldier) along with the fact that all of her memories with Madoka are of her as she was before, therefore if we change her mental state to something healthier through Madoka she is likely to go back to the form that she felt most comfortable with madoka with.
 
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Nyarky said:
mentally healthy
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questioningmeme said:
We need to turn her mentality back to normal too.
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I'm pretty sure "healthy" is one step better than "normal" for Homura, so you two don't fundamentally disagree here?

(But yes, it's pretty likely that if her appearance changed that she'll want to go back to something more comfortable for Madoka at the end of this; and if not her abilities will likely change with her mindset anyway in some way)
 
It would be ideal. But I meant normal as in "before she distorted" normal. Like how Roland "went back to normal" kind of normal.

Turning her towards a healthier mindset would be hella difficult due to how things are currently. So I didn't want to weight in too heavily on that.
 
Any input about using Sayaka for Regeneration, and X using accelerated Lobotomy (can't believe I forgot to point that out, it'll be useful in future scenarios) to deal with Grief accumulation, then Sayaka helping again to deal with backlash?

As mentioned, Exposure max does not instantly result in Distortion, still needs a inciting event; and doing this would be something monumental as far as Sayaka's view on the importance of her abilities (and to an extent self-worth keying off of that)
 
Yeah, could probably work.

But personally speaking, since Sayaka still hasn't sorted it out with BoyfriendMcGee over there, I am not too sure about her not distorting.

There's also the matter of the Witch Bomb we need to drop on the kids.
 
questioningmeme said:
No.
We need to turn her back to normal. Both her key and her current mindset are extremely harmful. Her current state of mentality is literally "Emotions are useless".

It's not just the key. Her entire robot state is bad for her health. We seriously need to deal with it before she starts running around forcing people to spin her key at gun point.
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…She is not going to force people to turn her key, it's entire existence is due to her refusing help and wanting to do everything alone, she's going to let herself die before even thinking of asking anyone to do it.

Ls Shadow said:
My current take is that for Nyarky he wants to change the mental state but not necessarily the body.
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Yes, I don't want *normal*, because for one, there is no such thing as an actual normal mental state, people are too different for that, and two, because Homura's *normal* is not a good state to be in anyway, her keeping the body or not is inconsequential, the important part is that she get a better state of mind.

And even if you want to undistort her, going back to her normal is never going to do that, she didn't change her mind much right now, just locked herself in it, you won't get any changes without… well, changes, and as such, not a return to normal.


And if her current body is not to her taste after she get better, she has other options than vanilla human, as long as Madoka don't reject her, she can be anything she wants.
 
Nyarky said:
as long as Madoka don't reject her, she can be anything she wants.
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That mental state of "As long as Madoka..." is harmful to her in the first place. So that need to change too.
She needs to be "As long as her friends...". Basing her entire existence on Madoka is what got her into this mess.

We already saw what happen and where the path of "As long as (one person) is okay." leads. Two examples are Argalia and Roland both going bonkers the moment said person died, and canon Homura's act of jumping timelines and causing mass universal death due to her selfishness.

We literally have a canon example of Homucifer as the true extent of that mindset.
 
questioningmeme said:
We literally have a canon example of Homucifer as the true extent of that mindset.
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I mean, Homucifer isn't that bad, if it wasn't for the out of control law of cycle, she could be seen as downright heroic, giving a new chance to her friends while sacrificing herself.

Well, the out of control law of cycle and the non consensual memory erasure, she needs to works on execution.
 
Again. It's not a healthy mindset by any means.

She is too dependent on Madoka. Far far too dependent. She is permanently stuck in her 14 years old state physically because of her status as a magical girl, and mentally because of her magic.

Thankfully, it seems like Light Exposure basically cures this through them obtaining E.G.O/Distorting, so I have no problems with the former. In fact, that is the main reason why I hope we will keep exposing the kids to the light. Transhumanism or not, I would prefer them to have a body that isn't reliant on the goddamn Wish. Eternal youth is only good when you are in the prime of your life. Being a kid forever sucks when you need to eventually reach up to high places or make friends with normal humans. Ask Tiphereth, she will give you a punch for your troubles.

The mindset is definitely something Homura needs to fix, however. Non-rebellion Homura is fine, but Rebellion Homura is a ticking timebomb because of that dependency. Plus, again. The girl needs more friends in her life. Gods know Angela's life got better when she finally moved on from her deadbeat of a dad.

This actually, brings me to my next point.

Do you guys think Angela will make the kids have growth spurts when she makes bodies for them? I can't imagine that all the magical girl's currently in our possession are as young as their bodies.
 
Nyarky said:
Seriously, wishing is, has always been, will always be, a trap, we don't need it, will never need it, it not not something we should even contemplate as a possibility.
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Why do you keep insisting on that? It's not like the wishes are actually monkey's paws. The intention carries through, we've seen this in canon repeatedly.

QB seems to target people who tend to regret their wishes, but he doesn't actively screw with their result, all he cares about is the energy anyway.

I don't know, canon PMMM has plenty of examples where a wish is just obviously good. Unless you want to say that the correct action for Mami was to die in that flaming car, because wishes are fundamentally bad. In which case, your position is consistent but kind of weird.

Lurker183839 said:
Any input about using Sayaka for Regeneration, and X using accelerated Lobotomy (can't believe I forgot to point that out, it'll be useful in future scenarios) to deal with Grief accumulation, then Sayaka helping again to deal with backlash?
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Pretty sure she is how we'd "stimulate" the MGs in the Regeneration vote. She's already included, it just makes sense.

Also we have the option to cleanse her soul gem the normal way if we want to avoid more Exposure.

Nyarky said:
…She is not going to force people to turn her key, it's entire existence is due to her refusing help and wanting to do everything alone, she's going to let herself die before even thinking of asking anyone to do it.
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Which is precisely why this distortion is so fucked up. It seems she gave up on the above and doesn't care about using others in her war anymore.

Not that it's actually a bad change in mindset to have, precisely. However, it seems she went about it the wrong way. Like, all functionality related to feelings was cut out, just to get at this problem.

It's a really crude solution, like a hack-job version of Lobotomy. She can do better, and has done better, considering she made it to canon in a state of relative sanity.

questioningmeme said:
canon Homura's act of jumping timelines and causing mass universal death due to her selfishness.
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More like canon writers' act of not thinking through their setting and undermining the coherence of their work due to their stupidity.
 
questioningmeme said:
and canon Homura's act of jumping timelines and causing mass universal death due to her selfishness.
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Just saw that one:

It's false, completely and utterly, the timelines don't' disappear when Homura leaves, she doesn't destroy an universe everytime she jumps. Wraith arc shows us that the previous timelines still exist and she could still go back to them if she wanted.

diplomacy said:
Why do you keep insisting on that? It's not like the wishes are actually monkey's paws. The intention carries through, we've seen this in canon repeatedly.
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Witches, and the system being rigged, no wish is worth the price, the amount of problems created by becoming dependent on Kyubey's suffering farm is way too much.

Don't think we can sidestep it via Lobotomy, we can't use it on ourself.

And the more powerful the magical girl, the less control she has over her power, Tart only had the potential of someone saving France, a potential that was potentially weaker due to her having wished to get it, and she still couldn't attack once without almost filling her gem in one go, Madoka was way worse after enough timelines. The fact that we have a big potential means that we will suffer from this problem, and will have to constantly use grief seeds not to become the world destroying monster that our witch ought to be, grief seeds that were entirely made out of the suffering of innocent girls.

Also, it means that everything that is free to use right now is going to get a cost in grief, limiting us, it means that we cannot have any bad episodes without risking a fate worse than death, it means that just existing is suddenly an act that increase the suffering in the world due to us needing ressources for it.

WISHING IS A TRAP.

diplomacy said:
Which is precisely why this distortion is so fucked up. It seems she gave up on the above and doesn't care about using others in her war anymore.
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Did you miss the part where I said I wanted Homura to be mentally healthy by the end of it? I never said I wanted her to keep this mindset, I said that if she didn't need to go back to being human to get out of it, it would not be a problem.
 
Nyarky said:
It's false, completely and utterly, the timelines don't' disappear when Homura leaves, she doesn't destroy an universe everytime she jumps. Wraith arc shows us that the previous timelines still exist and she could still go back to them if she wanted.
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You got the wrong point. Perhaps I wasn't clearer.

Whenever she jumps the timeline, she leaves behind an immeasurably strong witch who then destroys all of humanity and then, later on, grows to be strong enough to devour the universe. That's my point.

If she wasn't so dependent on Madoka, Kriemhild would never have gotten that strong.

Nyarky said:
Don't think we can sidestep it via Lobotomy, we can't use it on ourselves, to cure Grief.
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This is an assumption regarding the nature of Light/Wish interactions, do not frame it as a fact. We cannot use normal people as a basis for how Grief would interact with Magic.

Nothing There, for example, was able to freely absorb Grief and prevent its build-up without even needing help. The same can be said for X's high mental resistance and double healing method with Blue Star and Army in Pinks alongside whatever else X can obtain in the future.

In fact, with Nothing There's sapling coming up, we might be able to obtain even more resistance to Grief build-up...

If it is even possible for X to build up Grief in the first place. Once again. We don't know anything about how Wishes interact with a literal living concept born from humanity's consciousness.

Literally. Anything we speculate about it is reliant on factors completely unreliable when compared to our circumstances.

Though I do agree that we shouldn't wish regardless. Not because of any particular reasons. But simply because X doesn't need them right now. If the situation calls for it I will go with it if an option isn't available.
 
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Nyarky said:
And even if you want to undistort her, going back to her normal is never going to do that, she didn't change her mind much right now, just locked herself in it, you won't get any changes without… well, changes, and as such, not a return to normal
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I disagree with her not changing her mind that much, because her distortion is literally built upon the shell of lies that she had been trying to convince herself on (She doesn't have worth as anything other than a sacrifice, Madoka would be better off without her, and she is a poison upon the world) while she still feels love towards Madoka. That is where it gets more complicated, because she sees X as someone that can help Madoka (Seeing what we did with Mami), that doesn't use grief-seeds (And therefore isn't part of that destructive system), along with X seeming to make more progress without her (Being able to bring all others in on the Lich bomb without anyone panicking) as well as X being seen as sacrificing herself to help others in manner that Homura never went the lengths to go through. Therefore the onlu way I can think of bringing her back hinges on Homuras love for Madoka and trying to brimg her back that way, therefore if we succeeded it would be likely that it would focus on bringing her back to her original mindset which would be closer to Moemura than anything else.

In regards to staying in a distorted body, it is something I find unlikely because distortions are literally the mind overriding the body and with that if the distortion brought back to normal the body will as well.
 
Whatever. Even if the option comes up, I refuse to choose it.

I refuse to join the game of QB, Our goal was to dismantle the system it set up, not joining it.
Every single day we stray further from our goal, which is save our daughters from this rigged system of suffering, suffering and more suffering, and try to dismantle it. but we are now trying to join the suffering? Great, wonderful.

And don't even mention that wish, it's not worth it, It's really not worth it, A single wish for a caller with our name on it? I refuse to give our freedom out until there is no way but wishing, until there is no way but kneel down before a god and say, save us, or else I will not participate that shit show.

You seem to think, that signing a patch with a devil, will be easy to back out with our powers, I refuse to believe this will be that easy for us, even if our abnormality nature comes to play.
It is connected to our soul, which have high potential to be one of the most powerful thing in the world right now, perfect for burning. And you just want to say here, take it, I want to try something out?!

As a manager, the king of the facility, I refuse to kneel down and wish my freedom and soul away to a fucking cat creature.

That is all.
 
We are going off-topic.

I am pulling things back. Wishes, as they are right now, are useless to us. We will revisit them when the time comes.

Do you guys think it's possible for Angela to make the MGs some more grown-up bodies as they age? Similar to how Tiph gets a grown-up body.
 
This is a unique circumstance remember? Since she isn't interacting with the Soul Gems itself, which is why I'm raising the question.

Do you think it's possible for something like an immunity system's acute rejection but on a larger scale?
 
questioningmeme said:
Whenever she jumps the timeline, she leaves behind an immeasurably strong witch who then destroys all of humanity and then, later on, grows to be strong enough to devour the universe. That's my point.
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Kriemhild is never going to destroy the universe, the witch of Despair might, and she was the result of Madoka becoming a concept, not a normal wish.

Not all timelines ended with Gretchen loose too, in fact, given how much Homura was trying to stop Madoka from wishing, I would hazard a guess that most ends with Madoka simply dying before she can even wish.

And Homura had no idea that her jumps where the cause of Madoka's increased potential, in fact, she basically gives-up as soon as she learns it, so you cannot say in any way that her continuing to chase her dream by rewinding time when she fails means that she doesn't care about the witch that just got loose, her main motivation is not selfishness she has no self-worth, she wants Madoka to be happy, she doesn't care about herself.

kaillll said:
Something I completely agree with
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Exactly, Kyubey's entire system is an abomination and should be dismantled as soon as possible, making a wish is giving him power over us.

questioningmeme said:
Do you guys think it's possible for Angela to make the MGs some more grown-up bodies as they age? Similar to how Tiph gets a grown-up body.
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Don't see why she couldn't, soul gems actually don't care what body they are hooked up on, actually we have absolutely no proofs of magical girls being immortal, that's entirely fanon, actually, aren't there magical girls in magia records that have clearly aged? Meaning that it isn't a problem in the first place.
 
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