Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

-Thats not how any of this works.
You cant give person B person A's memories and now say that person B bears responsibility for A's crimes.

Fallen angels, from Lucifer to Lash's progenitor Lasciel were created for good by the White God. It was their choice to Fall, to not only rebel but turn to evil; their purpose didnt stop it. Molly is herself heir to an Exalted shard steeped in sin, and attempting to turned it to other ends.

If any of your assertions were correct, there would be no Fallen, and Molly would be doomed to be a supervillain.
Heredity is not predestination. Not in this cosmology.
Lash is either a partial fork of Lasciel, or a purposefully designed construct.

In the first case, yes, I can hold her responsible for Ladciel's actions, same as I would hold a Hitler's uploaded mindstate responsible for Hitler's crimes, or at least those crimes that it remebered committing.

In the second case, I am not holding her responsible, but I am trusting Lasciel to have done a good job in making Lash as good at her intended purpose as possible.

In both cases, Lash started out her existence as more evil, or at least more evil-intending, than the Red Court vampires we have encountered. If Lash can be turned towards good, than so can these vampires. More easily too, once we get Mercy in Servitude.

-And so what did he do? As far as we know, Kincaid was a hitman and troubleshooter for Drakul.
We have no idea if he was anything out of the ordinary for similar people in his profession. He almost certainly doesnt match Ebenezar McCoy's collateral damage, and McCoy raised Dresden.
And yet, you are holding the conquest of America's (very much a church blessed action) against Don Phillipe de Leon, and the Red Court nature against them. Why are Red Court vampires evil? Because to become one, you have to make a choice to kill, when you don't need to. The same choice Kincaid made when he became and remained a hired killer. Only he doesn't have the Red Court's mitigating circumstance of blood thirst. Following this logic, he is more evil than an average Red Court vampire.

I am sorry, but this seems really hypocritical to me.

And I specifically didn't bring up McCoy, because that's a whole different discussion (interestingly, in real life there were no human lives confirmed to have been lost in Tunguska event, and only up to 3 deaths are considered "probable").
 
Lash is either a partial fork of Lasciel, or a purposefully designed construct.

In the first case, yes, I can hold her responsible for Ladciel's actions, same as I would hold a Hitler's uploaded mindstate responsible for Hitler's crimes, or at least those crimes that it remebered committing.

In the second case, I am not holding her responsible, but I am trusting Lasciel to have done a good job in making Lash as good at her intended purpose as possible.

In both cases, Lash started out her existence as more evil, or at least more evil-intending, than the Red Court vampires we have encountered. If Lash can be turned towards good, than so can these vampires. More easily too, once we get Mercy in Servitude.


And yet, you are holding the conquest of America's (very much a church blessed action) against Don Phillipe de Leon, and the Red Court nature against them. Why are Red Court vampires evil? Because to become one, you have to make a choice to kill, when you don't need to. The same choice Kincaid made when he became and remained a hired killer. Only he doesn't have the Red Court's mitigating circumstance of blood thirst. Following this logic, he is more evil than an average Red Court vampire.

I am sorry, but this seems really hypocritical to me.

And I specifically didn't bring up McCoy, because that's a whole different discussion (interestingly, in real life there were no human lives confirmed to have been lost in Tunguska event, and only up to 3 deaths are considered "probable").
I fully intend to do red court genocide though, their at war with the white council associating with them is idiotic, and I'm fairly sure they literally can't not be evil well without magical means. Like it doesn't really matter how good a person you were before turning their monsters once they've made the choice to eat another human even if its through coercion.
 
[X] Tell dad and Lydia to press on ahead while you clean up here

I hope we are not sending them to their deaths.
 
  1. Lydia: Regain 2 Essence once per scene when bringing a restless dead to final rest, slaying a Necromancer or giving a dying person the last comfort.
  2. Molly: It's kind of marginal since she has not had any time to think about what she has seen... but I did roll occult to see if she realized the explosive cancer was contagious so yeah OK, that should be worth the 2 Essence
Yeah, Lydia needs to start with either a bigger base Essence pool or her charmset needs wholesale rebalancing for Essence costs.
Because thats hilariously restrictive for her.
Or maybe she should simply buy a modified version of the Nephilim trait.

Definitely needs those animal/spirit companions at a minimum.
Lash is either a partial fork of Lasciel, or a purposefully designed construct.
In the first case, yes, I can hold her responsible for Ladciel's actions, same as I would hold a Hitler's uploaded mindstate responsible for Hitler's crimes, or at least those crimes that it remebered committing.

In the second case, I am not holding her responsible, but I am trusting Lasciel to have done a good job in making Lash as good at her intended purpose as possible.

In both cases, Lash started out her existence as more evil, or at least more evil-intending, than the Red Court vampires we have encountered. If Lash can be turned towards good, than so can these vampires. More easily too, once we get Mercy in Servitude.
-With all due respect, thats rubbish.
An uploaded mindstate of Hitler would BE Hitler in every way that mattered. An edited personality that was deliberately designed to be diminished, and for a given task, would not.

Lash is a partial imprint of Lasciel largely running on Dresden's neural hardware and life force. Lasciel didnt create an equal, she tried to create a child/tool. The very fact Lash was able to die is proof positive they werent the same; you arent killing a fucking angel, or someone running on angelic power with a psychic attack.

Even demons dont die when killed with anything short of a Sword, they just lose their bodies and return to where they came from.
Hell, it took a particular bane to kill a loup garou.

- As many parents will tell you, children have their own idea of how to lead their lives.
Lasciel certainly didnt program Lash to rebel, or fall in love with Dresden, or have a child with him.

It just appears that no other person who had a Fallen's Shadow had the combination of knowledge and stubborness to hold out long enough for their Shadow to get enough life experience to make their own choices.
Lash got four years between Death Masks and White Night.

Heredity is not destiny in this reality.
And yet, you are holding the conquest of America's (very much a church blessed action) against Don Phillipe de Leon, and the Red Court nature against them. Why are Red Court vampires evil? Because to become one, you have to make a choice to kill, when you don't need to. The same choice Kincaid made when he became and remained a hired killer. Only he doesn't have the Red Court's mitigating circumstance of blood thirst. Following this logic, he is more evil than an average Red Court vampire.

I am sorry, but this seems really hypocritical to me.

And I specifically didn't bring up McCoy, because that's a whole different discussion (interestingly, in real life there were no human lives confirmed to have been lost in Tunguska event, and only up to 3 deaths are considered "probable").
I do not hold historical conquest against De Leon, any more than I hold historical Nordic warfare customs against Gard.
Different times, different norms. I do hold the slavery and genocide against him because the extermination of populations was very much the exception rather than the norm.

And critically, he is still doing it. In 2006.
The being that called itself Don Phillipe de Leon was an old, old monster, in another life beneath the scorching sun of Mexico he had ridden with Cortés, for God and king and glory everlasting, he had seen an Emperor stoned by his own people and set upon a pyre and he had seen with living eyes the death throes of a nation by sword and the plague of God's Judgement, the same which would raise the son of a poor hidalgo to lordship over wide, lush lands. Yet God had not seem fit to protect him from his own sickness which came by night on too sweet lips and numbing fangs and so he reasoned that it must be the will of the devil that he was cursed and as the promise of the Mount the Devil gave onto him all that was good and sweet upon the earth. A master was he over many slaves, of the Blood and not, true in fealty to his Lady even as she was to her lord and he to the Plumed Serpent. Conqueror, conquered, slave and slave-master all these Phillipe had been in the Empire of Blood and through it all a warrior strong and bold.
Well past the point at which that bullshit had stopped being acceptable behavior anywhere.
He ran out of excuses centuries ago.

We know nothing about Kincaid's career with Drakul.
Just that Kincaid is mortal enough to make his own choices.
Note him leaving Drakul's employ and ending up in the Archive's.

Reds are apparently not, not once they take that fatal bite.
And no Red Court noble who survives and thrives as long as De Leon has under the policies of the Red King is nothing short of a monster by human standards.

In the Dresdenverse RPG they call Latin America the Lands of Blood specifically because the Reds drive policies that keep it that way. And right now they are fighting a war so they can expand that same bullshit to other parts of the world.

PS
The many, many, many abject failures of the Catholic Church with regards to historical Latin America neither excuses nor justifies De Leon's behavior or that of the Red Court.

McCoy's bodycount is well beyond Tunguska.
Blood Rites c35 said:
"You're the White Council's wetworks man," I said. "For all their prattle about the just and wise use of magic, when the wisdom and justice of the Laws of Magic get inconvenient, they have an assassin. You do that for them."
He said nothing.
"You kill people."
"Yes." Ebenezar's face looked like something carved in stone, and his voice was quietly harsh. "When there is no choice. When lives are at stake. When the lack of action would mean-" He cut himself off, jaw working. "I didn't want it. I still don't. But when I have to, I act."
"Like at Casaverde," I said. "You hit Ortega's stronghold when he escaped our duel."
"Yes," he said, still remote. "Ortega killed more of the White Council than any enemy in our history during the attack at Archangel." His voice faltered for a moment. "He killed Simon. My friend. Then he came here and tried to kill you, Hoss. And he was coming back here to finish the job as soon as he recovered. So I hit Casaverde. Killed him and almost two hundred of his personal retainers. And I killed nearly a hundred people there in the house with them. Servants. Followers. Food."
I felt sick. "You told me it would be on the news. I thought maybe it was the Council. Or that you'd done it without killing anyone but vampires. I had time to think about it later, but… I wanted to believe you'd done what was right."
"There's what's right," the old man said, "and then there's what's necessary. They ain't always the same."
"Casaverde wasn't the only necessary thing you did," I said. "Was it."
"Casaverde," Ebenezar said, his voice shaking. "Tunguska. New Madrid. Krakatoa. A dozen more. God help me, a dozen more at least."
Krakatoa alone was around 36,000 people in direct deaths.
Indirect deaths is unknown. Plus thousands of injured. And thats just the named one.
The New Madrid earthquakes bodycount is unknown.
 
Yeah, Lydia needs to start with either a bigger base Essence pool or her charmset needs wholesale rebalancing for Essence costs.
Because thats hilariously restrictive for her.
Or maybe she should simply buy a modified version of the Nephilim trait.
DP wanted her to be a terrestrial-tier player, so I worked wihh that.

In hindsight it might be better to rework a few Charms to function off WP too.

But I think I made most of her basic stuff cheap at least?
 
DP wanted her to be a terrestrial-tier player, so I worked wihh that.
In hindsight it might be better to rework a few Charms to function off WP too.
But I think I made most of her basic stuff cheap at least?
I'll try to take another look over the Thanksgiving weekend
I still owe you a look at another charm anyway.

Anyway, she's the daughter of a living death god.
And one with enough innate magical talent that she was a viable possession target for Corpsetaker.
She can probably inherit a fuckton of Merits as she grows older into full adulthood.

We still dont know who her mother was, do we?
Sanya almost certainly has a shadow in his mind.

That is a rather strong supposition.
1)No he doesnt.

As far as we know, he never had one; you only have Shadows in people who need to be persuaded to pick up the Coin.
Sanya accepted his Coin at the very beginning from Rosa, so there was no interregnum of seduction and persuasion.
When he gave it up, he gave up all attachments.

Besides, Archangel Michael personally delivered Esperacchius to him.
If there was a miniMagog in his noggin, it would have been extracted and probably plonked somewhere else to make its own choices.

2)We've seen half-Reds who serve the Red Court, and half-Reds who oppose it.
We've never seen a full Red who opposes the Red Court.
Make of that what you will.
 
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Yeah, Lydia needs to start with either a bigger base Essence pool or her charmset needs wholesale rebalancing for Essence costs.
Because thats hilariously restrictive for her.
Or maybe she should simply buy a modified version of the Nephilim trait.

Definitely needs those animal/spirit companions at a minimum.

-With all due respect, thats rubbish.
An uploaded mindstate of Hitler would BE Hitler in every way that mattered. An edited personality that was deliberately designed to be diminished, and for a given task, would not.

Lash is a partial imprint of Lasciel largely running on Dresden's neural hardware and life force. Lasciel didnt create an equal, she tried to create a child/tool. The very fact Lash was able to die is proof positive they werent the same; you arent killing a fucking angel, or someone running on angelic power with a psychic attack.

Even demons dont die when killed with anything short of a Sword, they just lose their bodies and return to where they came from.
Hell, it took a particular bane to kill a loup garou.

- As many parents will tell you, children have their own idea of how to lead their lives.
Lasciel certainly didnt program Lash to rebel, or fall in love with Dresden, or have a child with him.

It just appears that no other person who had a Fallen's Shadow had the combination of knowledge and stubborness to hold out long enough for their Shadow to get enough life experience to make their own choices.
Lash got four years between Death Masks and White Night.

Heredity is not destiny in this reality.

I do not hold historical conquest against De Leon, any more than I hold historical Nordic warfare customs against Gard.
Different times, different norms. I do hold the slavery and genocide against him because the extermination of populations was very much the exception rather than the norm.

And critically, he is still doing it. In 2006.

Well past the point at which that bullshit had stopped being acceptable behavior anywhere.
He ran out of excuses centuries ago.

We know nothing about Kincaid's career with Drakul.
Just that Kincaid is mortal enough to make his own choices.
Note him leaving Drakul's employ and ending up in the Archive's.

Reds are apparently not, not once they take that fatal bite.
And no Red Court noble who survives and thrives as long as De Leon has under the policies of the Red King is nothing short of a monster by human standards.

In the Dresdenverse RPG they call Latin America the Lands of Blood specifically because the Reds drive policies that keep it that way. And right now they are fighting a war so they can expand that same bullshit to other parts of the world.

PS
The many, many, many abject failures of the Catholic Church with regards to historical Latin America neither excuses nor justifies De Leon's behavior or that of the Red Court.

McCoy's bodycount is well beyond Tunguska.

Krakatoa alone was around 36,000 people in direct deaths.
Indirect deaths is unknown. Plus thousands of injured. And thats just the named one.
The New Madrid earthquakes bodycount is unknown.

Lash died in what was basically a soulfire powered immolation to power an impossible spell. A demon (or any other spirit) would be able to die to that if you know they were inclined to self-sacrifice. Though given the nature of her binding she would have died with Harry anyway. Once Harry refused the coin that last time she basically had a choice to die with a purpose or having failed her purpose. There was no box marked 'survive'.

Anyway vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 25, 2022 at 5:22 AM, finished with 31 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Tell dad and Lydia to press on ahead while you clean up here
    [X] Tell dad and Lydia to press on ahead while you clean up here
    -[X]Stunt: Your sword shines though the murk like an baneful star acting as an empomto standard that the vampires rally around as you swim though the frogmen leaving bloody remains in your wake. This is no accident. The blood flows through the water currents exactly where you desire and expect which in turns leads the vampires to go exactly where you desire and expect. To an outside observer it might look that you were tearing though your foes with blood thirty abandon, but to you this fight felt more like playing a game of Janga. You just had to keep hitting the right block in the right way. Or maybe chess considering how the bloodlusted vampires where pawns to move as you wished unable to see beyond their own squares.
 
Lash died in what was basically a soulfire powered immolation to power an impossible spell. A demon (or any other spirit) would be able to die to that if you know they were inclined to self-sacrifice. Though given the nature of her binding she would have died with Harry anyway. Once Harry refused the coin that last time she basically had a choice to die with a purpose or having failed her purpose. There was no box marked 'survive'.

Anyway vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 25, 2022 at 5:22 AM, finished with 31 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Tell dad and Lydia to press on ahead while you clean up here
    [X] Tell dad and Lydia to press on ahead while you clean up here
    -[X]Stunt: Your sword shines though the murk like an baneful star acting as an empomto standard that the vampires rally around as you swim though the frogmen leaving bloody remains in your wake. This is no accident. The blood flows through the water currents exactly where you desire and expect which in turns leads the vampires to go exactly where you desire and expect. To an outside observer it might look that you were tearing though your foes with blood thirty abandon, but to you this fight felt more like playing a game of Janga. You just had to keep hitting the right block in the right way. Or maybe chess considering how the bloodlusted vampires where pawns to move as you wished unable to see beyond their own squares.
Point of order:
Lash didnt have magic of her own. She used Dresden's. And Dresden did not get access to soulfire before Small Favor in canon IIRC. At least that is my recollection.

And Butcher has strongly implied that while angels have access to both soulfire and hellfire(the one they use is indicative of what type of angel they are), its not really something that mortals have access to at the same time.
Thats canon, at least. Here can be different.

EDIT2
Now that I think about it?

What Lash did was basically the same thing Bob did for Karrin during the Battle of Chitchen Itza, against much scarier opps than a single wizard. It shouldnt count as that big of a deal without Lash either being a much weaker spirit or deliberately suiciding for whatever reason.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, Lydia needs to start with either a bigger base Essence pool or her charmset needs wholesale rebalancing for Essence costs.
Because thats hilariously restrictive for her.
Or maybe she should simply buy a modified version of the Nephilim trait.

Definitely needs those animal/spirit companions at a minimum.

-With all due respect, thats rubbish.
An uploaded mindstate of Hitler would BE Hitler in every way that mattered. An edited personality that was deliberately designed to be diminished, and for a given task, would not.

Lash is a partial imprint of Lasciel largely running on Dresden's neural hardware and life force. Lasciel didnt create an equal, she tried to create a child/tool. The very fact Lash was able to die is proof positive they werent the same; you arent killing a fucking angel, or someone running on angelic power with a psychic attack.

Even demons dont die when killed with anything short of a Sword, they just lose their bodies and return to where they came from.
Hell, it took a particular bane to kill a loup garou.

- As many parents will tell you, children have their own idea of how to lead their lives.
Lasciel certainly didnt program Lash to rebel, or fall in love with Dresden, or have a child with him.

It just appears that no other person who had a Fallen's Shadow had the combination of knowledge and stubborness to hold out long enough for their Shadow to get enough life experience to make their own choices.
Lash got four years between Death Masks and White Night.

Heredity is not destiny in this reality.

I do not hold historical conquest against De Leon, any more than I hold historical Nordic warfare customs against Gard.
Different times, different norms. I do hold the slavery and genocide against him because the extermination of populations was very much the exception rather than the norm.

And critically, he is still doing it. In 2006.

Well past the point at which that bullshit had stopped being acceptable behavior anywhere.
He ran out of excuses centuries ago.

We know nothing about Kincaid's career with Drakul.
Just that Kincaid is mortal enough to make his own choices.
Note him leaving Drakul's employ and ending up in the Archive's.

Reds are apparently not, not once they take that fatal bite.
And no Red Court noble who survives and thrives as long as De Leon has under the policies of the Red King is nothing short of a monster by human standards.

In the Dresdenverse RPG they call Latin America the Lands of Blood specifically because the Reds drive policies that keep it that way. And right now they are fighting a war so they can expand that same bullshit to other parts of the world.

PS
The many, many, many abject failures of the Catholic Church with regards to historical Latin America neither excuses nor justifies De Leon's behavior or that of the Red Court.

McCoy's bodycount is well beyond Tunguska.

Krakatoa alone was around 36,000 people in direct deaths.
Indirect deaths is unknown. Plus thousands of injured. And thats just the named one.
The New Madrid earthquakes bodycount is unknown.
Couple things I'm not really totally against what you say about lash but prior to new experiences they were largely near the same being as lasciel in terms of personality, desires, and memories. She just had time and a very stubborn and likable harry to change her on a deep level. It's far less a child than it is a copy even if it's not a one to one copy.
 
Point of order:
Lash didnt have magic of her own. She used Dresden's. And Dresden did not get access to soulfire before Small Favor in canon IIRC. At least that is my recollection.

And Butcher has strongly implied that while angels have access to both soulfire and hellfire(the one they use is indicative of what type of angel they are), its not really something that mortals have access to at the same time.
Thats canon, at least. Here can be different.

EDIT2
Now that I think about it?

What Lash did was basically the same thing Bob did for Karrin during the Battle of Chitchen Itza, against much scarier opps than a single wizard. It shouldnt count as that big of a deal without Lash either being a much weaker spirit or deliberately suiciding for whatever reason.

Lash was a much weaker spirit, she was far younger and never meant to be able to cast on that scale, using Harry's power or no. Also given that Lash was written onto Harry's mind and she burned herself out... that definitely looks like soulfire in hindsight. Harry's soul would of course recover, but that doesn't mean the foreign data on the piece of missing soul would refresh, hence Lash was gone.
 
Couple things I'm not really totally against what you say about lash but prior to new experiences they were largely near the same being as lasciel in terms of personality, desires, and memories. She just had time and a very stubborn and likable harry to change her on a deep level. It's far less a child than it is a copy even if it's not a one to one copy.
We've never seen Lasciel herself onscreen.

However.It seems to me that if you are a Fallen Angel known for being headstrong and independent and doing their own thing, the last thing you would do is make a spirit that is too much like you. Because that would essentially guarantee that said spirit would be headstrong and independent and do its own thing, not what you want it to do.

Especially since the success of what you want it to do means that it has to die, it would have motive to do its own thing.
Lash was a much weaker spirit, she was far younger and never meant to be able to cast on that scale, using Harry's power or no. Also given that Lash was written onto Harry's mind and she burned herself out... that definitely looks like soulfire in hindsight. Harry's soul would of course recover, but that doesn't mean the foreign data on the piece of missing soul would refresh, hence Lash was gone.
Younger yes.
Never meant to cast on that scale? I would probably dispute that, since Lasciel would not have included that functionality if so.
There's still a bunch of unanswered questions, and what happened with Lash is one of them.

I mean, Dresden threw Hellfire at Corpsetaker trying to get into his head in Dead Beat, so we know it works.
But here, even when Lash was trying to save his life, it didnt come up.
 
We've never seen Lasciel herself onscreen.

However.It seems to me that if you are a Fallen Angel known for being headstrong and independent and doing their own thing, the last thing you would do is make a spirit that is too much like you. Because that would essentially guarantee that said spirit would be headstrong and independent and do its own thing, not what you want it to do.

Especially since the success of what you want it to do means that it has to die, it would have motive to do its own thing.

Younger yes.
Never meant to cast on that scale? I would probably dispute that, since Lasciel would not have included that functionality if so.
There's still a bunch of unanswered questions, and what happened with Lash is one of them.

I mean, Dresden threw Hellfire at Corpsetaker trying to get into his head in Dead Beat, so we know it works.
But here, even when Lash was trying to save his life, it didnt come up.
Fairly sure it's just like lasciel in terms of personality it's literally an imprint of her dude. Like come on your kinda stretching things.
 
Anyways too tired to continue this conversation and I don't want to have to argue that lash is in fact very much similar to lasciel with similar motivations and personality starting out given she's a literal imprint of them.
 
Yeah, Lydia needs to start with either a bigger base Essence pool or her charmset needs wholesale rebalancing for Essence costs.
Because thats hilariously restrictive for her.
Or maybe she should simply buy a modified version of the Nephilim trait.

Definitely needs those animal/spirit companions at a minimum.
Those are baseline ExWoD terrestrial rules of one set or another, and their charm sets are basically as essence efficient as hers is.

Making everyone a celestial tier badass by default instead of needing to work around the issues presented by their limits makes for funky world building at the very least.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 25, 2022 at 5:22 AM, finished with 31 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Tell dad and Lydia to press on ahead while you clean up here
    [X] Tell dad and Lydia to press on ahead while you clean up here
    -[X]Stunt: Your sword shines though the murk like an baneful star acting as an empomto standard that the vampires rally around as you swim though the frogmen leaving bloody remains in your wake. This is no accident. The blood flows through the water currents exactly where you desire and expect which in turns leads the vampires to go exactly where you desire and expect. To an outside observer it might look that you were tearing though your foes with blood thirty abandon, but to you this fight felt more like playing a game of Janga. You just had to keep hitting the right block in the right way. Or maybe chess considering how the bloodlusted vampires where pawns to move as you wished unable to see beyond their own squares.
 
Arc 3 Post 25: Of Shattered Spite
Of Shattered Spite

25st of July 2006 A.D.

"Go! Make sure they can't get away," you shout into the earpiece, even as you turn your sword against the murk. These things might not have a head, but you'll bet they still have a heart. Closing your eyes you listen.

Lose 1 Essence (Renew Melee Excellency) -> Now at 6/12

Blood like red nectar races though the alien veins of the Red Court, viscera twisted to deadly purpose fly towards you, each seen in a flash of instinct, each parried and there... a heart all-too human thudding with the adrenaline of battle, of challenge. With one swift blow you pierce it, fire illuminating a tangle of glistening guts as you weave between them. Shoulder, knees arms and feet as much as the buckler of black metal ward them off as they try to entangle you, but there are just too many of the darn things. One manages to latch on to your armored ankle, its blie-laced bite burning through the stone of your armor until it gnaws at flesh. It is not trying to drink your blood, you realize with a sudden disquieting jolt but dissolve and consume bone for the vital minerals within.

You take 2 Wounds

As most of the vampires not wracked in agony from the grey one's tendrils continue to rip and tear through any part of it they can reach through the murk you see with distant eyes one of them, gaunt and ashen-skinned, hang back and open its mouth to... sing. You had expected some kind of bestial screech or at best a single high note fit to shatter glass. Instead it sounds more like a symphony of instruments not meant for human hands, tones that defy the ear and melodies that twist back on themselves in haunting echo.

The enemy is less appreciative of the music, you can feel one of the bony tendrils cringe as it brushes against your arm and for the merest instance you see one of the headless thrall 'attack'... by bumping into your shoulder unharmed but unresponsive. Another way for the blood drinkers to immobilize their prey when it's too far to spit, Usum notes, as impressed with the tactical acumen as you had been with the song itself.

It is all too clear that those vampires still in command of their senses are in no mood to feed as one of the others rips an arm off the headless thrall with one clawed hand, while the other carves its way into its chest.

One of the bone tendrils had been reaching for it, but it's clear that it can't use dead flesh for its magic. Through eyes uncounted you see another rocket towards almost faster than the human eye can follow. Good thing you aren't entirely human these days. The sword that is part of your soul arcs to meet it, slicing off the black injector tip as you surge forward with a perfect breast stroke if you do say so yourself and ram your sword where the central mass aught to be.

Your flEsh will tWIst youR Throat wiLl siNg
YoUR blOOd will fLy, your Mind will SCREAM

The words strike you like a thing manifest, physical, a curtain of lead, darkness without end, pain without relenting, a nightmare not of the soul, but of the flesh raised revolt.

In answer from the depths of your soul, from the place where your will is enthroned in power imperishable rises a denial not strident, but quiet as the shadow on the grave of a vanquished foe, soft as the wind through the arches of a city enduring in ruin.

As your anima chases away the murk of the dead wizard you guess you see flesh of the thing already decomposition into a foul sludge, though the translucent five foot diameter shell just drifts slowly to the bottom of the lake. So that was a death curse you realize. Nasty. Snapping your shield closed you grab for the thing, it has to be some kind of magic after all. "Mine."

None of the vampires argue, just finishing off the last of the headless thralls, but then Don Phillipe says something you did not expect: "My lady we are sore wounded from the battle and some of us will take many days to recover from the agonies inflicted. May we withdraw from battle?"

For a moment you wonder if he is planning some kind of treachery once he is out of your sight. After all the possibility of that is part of the reason you had decided to stay in the fight, but no, the bent posture, the twitching ears bent towards you, the way his fangs are hidden behind rubbery lips. He's terrified of you and wants to get as far away from you as he can before you can kill him and all his remaining servants.

That begs the obvious question: Do I want to kill them all now? On the one hand you had been allies of a sort, perhaps they had even spared you injury, but on the other they are murderous blood drinkers who are going to carry news of you and what they had seen you do to the Red King.

"The terror you sowed in their minds might be turned to a useful purpose at a later date, Lady Garbed in the Ramparts of Empire," Usum whispers thoughtfully. "None of your existing allies seem to have the resource."

What do you do?

[] Let the Vampires go
-[] You are not going to betray your allies no matter how distasteful
-[] Usum is right, you still have all that contact information

[] Insist that they help finish the fight (Charisma+Intimidation)

[] Kill them, the world will be a better place without them

[] Write in


OOC: Took me a while to figure out what the DCs for a death curse should be and I almost rolled one dice too many for your countermagic, but when I got all the ducks in a row...well you will see in the roll section. I am posting those.
 
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[X] Let the Vampires go
-[X] You are not going to betray your allies no matter how distasteful


It'd be different if he had intended betrayal, but alas.
Our word should have worth, even if theirs hasn't.
 
Just aren't supposed to be that strong. There always was a difference between Celestials and Terrestrials, and moreso between Celestials and Solaroids, who are Celestials+.

The fact that she is a fresh-out-of-chargen character doesn't help at all. She is actually somewhat stronger than a generic Dragonblooded, given that her Excellence scales with Willpower.

Doesn't make her irrelevant. She is just not a second Molly. Not an additional Knight of the Cross, either.
More XP, first and foremost. VEE merits second.

Then we could look if she got any discounts on Linear magic thanks to her ancestry. IIRC we are supposed to adapt Shih Arts into Terrestrial Martial Arts at some points; once we optimize them for running on Essence, that is going to be a pretty decent jump in capabilities, too.
1)Alchemy/Enchanting Path doesnt seem to work by piling on loads of damage dice.
If we are using the full breadth of avalible materials, straightforward +Damage effects are allowed and semi-commonly used as example for 3-4 dots effects. 5-6 dots of additional damage is a conservative estimation of custom weapon + custom bullet, without going into gross optimization of higher dot effects or double-dipping into dubiously compatible effects for further number stacking.

There are also utility effects for weights and so on, but how that would work needs to be worked out with DP, and given that we aren't actually planning to craft a wagon of magical M2s, I think it is better to spare DP excessive workload.
Mage, balance of guns, true final boss of oWoD is a tank
Holden specifically follows up that example with "Weapon rules are fine". Its durability was borked, not the damage rules.

Hitmarks chaingun/plasma guns
Still designed to be usable by a STR 5 human operative. There are also rules for full-auto, which tilt the damage estimations. +10 attack dice is a lot of damage potential, and we have an abundance of potential difficulty-adjusting tools to make drawbacks irrelevant.

//generic reminder that I don't want Molly to use guns, just thinking about what other ranged options compete with
Mind Hand Manipulation's damage pool is your temporary Willpower, not your permanent Willpower.
Your base damage pool decreases everytime you spend temporary WP for an automatic success, to activate IPM, to go into shintai, et cetera. So even if you have maximum permanent WP 10, your damage pool decreases every time you spend temp WP.
I am aware; there are options for willpower management thanks for out-of-splats powers. TBH, even with gradual abrasion of WP, even +7 or +5 is just, a lot when converted to agg.
 
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Lots of properly spooked vamps. Tanked a death curse in front of someone who knows exactly how bad those could be.

Not bad.

TBH, kind of want to kill them, these are not our friends. Not a particularly strong opinion, though.
 
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