Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[] Threaten and compel the spy as Usum suggested, maybe he knows something useful
-[] Use Excellency(Intimidation)
-[] Question him, trying to dig up everything he knows.
—[] Mark him for death, but not yet.
—-[] red court vampires are supposed to be monsters, but better to see before slaying.
—-[] Instead, be prepared to put cyber devils in any visible electronics and his car if possible. So that we can follow him home and see what the red court is doing in town.
-[] Stunt: As you look at the red vampire standing in front of you, something behind your heart recoils; why, it almost whispers in your ear, is it still standing.
—[] something boils through the air; invisible and intangible, but that demands attention with all the tenderness of a branding iron on bare skin. An authority this lesser thing as unknowingly defied.
—[] "And who are you to question us?" Molly says in a voice she almost doesn't recognize. Something that carries the weight of a crown and the promise of fire.

Something like this maybe? I won't edit or revote myself because people are already proxy voting, but it's an alternative for others who still want the stunt and to prep for later encounters.
Thank you.
So if all else fails, we know what we're doing when we get to a hotel room this evening.
And this dude needs to live. For the moment.
Why? We could also just kill him, put a devil in his phone, and do the same to numbers in his call log. We could pick a random business in town and use another cyber devil in their system to call them about their car's extended warranty to make it less suspicious.
 
So, I went through our potential charm list to see for possible fringe uses of said charms, and to write them down. At least some are definitely cheese of the highest order. Others might be viable.

1) What happens if we use A Cold and Lonely World on a denarian coin? On one hand, it is made as an entirely negative thing - you lose your place in the world and the only way to gain someone's attention is by angering them. On the other, Fallen start out with strong negative attention of angels. Losing said attention (because angels now don't recognize the fallen and don't pay attention to them) might well be a boon. Same with other beings to whom the rules of non-interference apply. Let's say with CLW Nicodemius and Anduriel with three successes. If in the three days they are not recognized as who they are, they break the rules (for example, by Anduriel literally choking the whole White Council with their own shadows), would Uriel be able to interfere or at least retaliate?

What about mantles? Are mantles treated as external beings for the purpose of the charm? Would using it on a (once-)mortal mantle bearer, like Matthews cause his mantle to stop recognizing him and leave for the next suitable bearer? Or are they treated as internal, and the world, or at least the world's inhabitants stop recognizing the mantle for what it is? Mab is magically obligated to care for the Winter Lady. If she was to directly kill her, she would suffer magically enforced consequences. Let's say we use the charm on Maeve. Mab should forget that Maeve is her daughter. But would Mab forget that Maeve is a winter lady? If she struck Maeve down, would she still suffer magically enforced consequences?

Or let's flip the situation. Let's say Dresden got a boon from Mab. We strike him with CLW. During the time no one recognizes him, he summons Mab (which, as per the reading of the charm, attracts her attention in the negative way) and tries to call on the boon. Mab refuses since she doesn't recognize him. Would she suffer a backlash, or does the charm affect the universe itself and, for the time the effect is active, the world doesn't recognize the debt Mab owes him?

And finally, what if we use this on a nemesis-infected person? Would this affect Nemesis itself? If so, how would that work? Would it temporarily cure all those infected since it wouldn't be able to easily whisper into their minds without angering them? Or, if its influence is modeled as a supernatural effect (which it is), then we'll essentially drain it's willpower to zero, since a part of the charm is "If he wishes to use any sort of supernatural power to impose his will on another (such as the vampire Discipline of Dominate), he must first spend a Willpower point to do so."... Dream-eating what might be a raksha is a deliciously ironic way to deal with it, even if it's not permanent willpower.
2) Black Mirror Incarnation. Does it fool magic? If Molly dons Harry's guise with it, and works for Mab in a way that would normally reduce Harry's magically enforced debt count, would Harry's debt count actually decrease? If she disguises herself as Maeve, and kills Maeve while doing so, would Maeve's mantle (try to) transfer to Molly, in the belief that Molly is Maeve? On one hand, the disguise is described as perfect. On the other, it speaks only about five senses. If we go with perfect, than the interactions with magical effects should also be fooled.
3) Prince of Ruin Attitude forces a physical tool to serve the Infernal as if it was new and pristine. It's something to be used on physical objects, so no forcing communism to work. However, this still leaves several options open to interpretation.

The charm can be activated "When the Infernal attempts to use a broken or nonfunctional tool, object, or vehicle," There are two parts here that open this charm to interpretation:

a) "broken" and "nonfunctional" are distinguished between. This means that non-functional isn't equal to "broken". Now, non-functional can mean several things. The simplest variant is "out of fuel / consumables". A car with an empty tank is non-functional. So is a gun with no ammunition, or a phone out of charge. The cheese starts when you consider that an ATM with no money in it is also non-functional (and yes, the bank account attached to a debit/credit card itself is probably too non-physical for the charm to affect).

And then one has to think if something that never could work, but was (wrongly) designed to do so, would be considered non-functional. For example, let's take Da Vinci's aerial screw. Modern understanding of aeronautics tells us that it would never have worked. It's a failed, non-functional design. Would Prince of Ruin attitude force it to work as intended? If so, would it only work on the device built by Da Vinci himself, or would our recreation of the design based on is drawings also be forced to work? What would the limitations be? I would expect that the easiest form of sanity check preventing us from turning Prince of Ruin Attitude into "we are now Calvin, Usum is Hoppes and this cardboard box is a time machine" would be "the design (or specific object) had to be designed with honest effort and belief that it would work, according to the creator's understand of physics that wasn't too far removed from common one at the time". Ie Da Vinci's aerial screw would work, a perpetual motion engine from 17th century would work, but a super soldier serum made by snake oil salesman wouldn't, since they knew it was just viagra mixed with cocaine. Alternatively, or in addition to, the effect has to be doable scientifically. Ie Da Vinci's aerial screw works, but a perpetual motion engine doesn't, since it would need to be magical to work (however some sort of "quantum foam tap" might).

What about deliberately non-functional design? What if we design, say, a portable laser cutter with no place for a power source, and one that would melt after two seconds of continuous work. Would PoRA make it work and stop it from melting (or make it keep working despite melting)?

b) "tool", "object", or "vehicle". Note how object is distinguished from "tool" or "vehicle". This is a very broad category. I, however, will focus on one small section of it. Books and other records. The functionality of a book is to hold knowledge and to be read. If the book is damaged, burned, the ink is smudged, painted over, the pages are torn apart or eaten by bookworms, the book becomes broken and non-functional. If we were to find a piece of a page from a book decomposing on a bottom of an ocean, or to collect ashes after someone burns a letter, would we be able to use PoRA to recover the knowledge within by forcing the book / letter to function? What about erased or overwritten videotapes and hard drives? Evidence retrieval, essentially.

It's also arguable that a book written in a genuinely dead language that no one speaks anymore is also non-functional, making PoRA an auto-translation charm for ancient texts.
4) Erupting Fury Rebuke. Only a short question here. The charm says "Everything within (successes x 10) yards not in the immediate possession of the Infernal or one of her allies that was crafted by human hands explodes. ". Does this include clothes? Various kinds of jewelry? Fake teeth and tooth fillings? What about processed, but undigested food in our opponents' stomachs?

Also, would denarian coins and Nicky's necktie be immune to this? As well as other human-made objects imbued with strong magics.
5) Violence as Worship - does "witness" only work on direct observation? If Skippy shows us a (genuine) snuff video (or even a recording / translation of some manner of martial arts fight), would we regain essence? Would it have to be a new recording each time?
6) Rendered Villain Dispersal - the charm's description focuses on how small a size of the liquid can be. I question "what happens if we try to hide in a lake? A river? City's sewers? An ocean? What counts as "disrupting or dispersing" for a lake? A storm? What about the ocean as a whole? Do we get to choose where we reincorporate? Could we jump into an ocean in New York, and re-emerge in Lisbon? What would we see while dispersed? Everything that the ocean sees?
7) Endless Torment Emanation - just checking, would "end the world" be a valid project to target with this charm? Or would we need to apply it separately to "Denarians plan to end the world", "Nemesis's plan to end the world", "Black Council's plan to end the world", etc? Also, how much do we need to know about the project to be able to target it? Would "Red court's attempts to win the war with White Council" be a valid target? What about "Breaking the Laws of Magic" or at least "breaching the outer gates"?
3) Life-Denying Curse. Does it work on Crowned with Fury, Heart-Carving Wind and the like, where the target can spend damage / willpower to lower the duration of the curse? Specifically the " Each level of damage the target suffers to resist this Charm negates one success on the Infernal's roll, shortening its duration." (taken from CwF, others have something similar). And, if it does, then, for the sake of my sanity, what is stopping us from using it in combination with Crowned with Fury on Lasciel's coin (appropriate difficulty droppers and excellencies apply) then commanding Lasciel to repent? Which would either make her die (unhealable damage), or, well, repent.

In general, a combination of Life-denying curse, which stops targets from breaking curses and Crowned With Fury (to force targets to obey) opens up a number of mind altering combinations. Add "Dissonant Lies Made True" and force the target to speak what you want them to believe in with CWF. Add Heart-carving Wind and Mind-Charring Infusion, possibly with Golden Years Tarnished Black to destroy the aspects of personality you don't want. Cap it off with Verdant Emptiness Endowment and you get a (very costly) combo that can remake a magical being completely. If temporarily.
 
>Black Mirror

If it was Black Mirror Shintai from 2E, I'd 100% confidently say that it would've worked for whacky metaphysical hijinks. But ExWoD's black mirror doesn't alter any of the fundamental qualities of the Infernal, it is just a perfect disguise charm.

>Emanation

Couldn't just shut down an entire organization, there are different charms for that. But something like "Vampire attack in Archangelsk" or any sort of a discrete organizational effort should be a valid target.

Hilarious.

Don't count on it working on the higher-order beings tho.
 
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>Emanation

Couldn't just shut down an entire organization, there are different charms for that. But something like "Vampire attack in Archangelsk" or any sort of a discrete organizational effort should be a valid target.
As far as I can tell, this is our only possible counter-organization charm, barring maybe the one that can be used to talk to every member in an organization with lower rank than us.
 
Let's say with CLW Nicodemius and Anduriel
I think a more interesting one would be to hit them both such that they lose their connection to each other. That's the big thing that determines how dangerous a Denarian can be. If we got lucky Anduriel might even kill his partner in frustration, allowing us to enjoy a delicious glass of fallen angel tears.
On one hand, the disguise is described as perfect. On the other, it speaks only about five senses. If we go with perfect, than the interactions with magical effects should also be fooled.
Context; it only perfectly acts on those vectors, otherwise there's no point in drawing the distinction.

Debt magic doesn't work on facial recognition, and wizard's sight doesn't actually use their eyes. Stuff like that shouldn't be effected.
commanding Lasciel to repent
She probably has perfect mental defenses that prevent this, just like we do.
 
She probably has perfect mental defenses that prevent this, just like we do.
That's a good point, at least some of these run into primacy of defense. Still, we could command her to return to hell at least. Not sure what the effect would be, but I doubt she'll be able to easily return. However, wiki page has an interesting part that I'll need to check in the book:
According to Dresden, the reason Denarians don't like going into churches is because it makes the Fallen feel. It makes them remember and makes them sad.[11]
If they feel sad about what they lost, there's something we can act upon. I truly think that with enough exalted BS, it might well be possible to make at least some fallen to repent.
I think a more interesting one would be to hit them both such that they lose their connection to each other. That's the big thing that determines how dangerous a Denarian can be. If we got lucky Anduriel might even kill his partner in frustration, allowing us to enjoy a delicious glass of fallen angel tears.
There's also Theft as Release for getting the coins away from the bearers.
 
Or let's flip the situation. Let's say Dresden got a boon from Mab. We strike him with CLW. During the time no one recognizes him, he summons Mab (which, as per the reading of the charm, attracts her attention in the negative way) and tries to call on the boon. Mab refuses since she doesn't recognize him. Would she suffer a backlash, or does the charm affect the universe itself and, for the time the effect is active, the world doesn't recognize the debt Mab owes him?

And finally, what if we use this on a nemesis-infected person? Would this affect Nemesis itself? If so, how would that work? Would it temporarily cure all those infected since it wouldn't be able to easily whisper into their minds without angering them? Or, if its influence is modeled as a supernatural effect (which it is), then we'll essentially drain it's willpower to zero, since a part of the charm is "If he wishes to use any sort of supernatural power to impose his will on another (such as the vampire Discipline of Dominate), he must first spend a Willpower point to do so."... Dream-eating what might be a raksha is a deliciously ironic way to deal with it, even if it's not permanent willpower.
Things like Mab or Nemesis can propably just use a Shaping Defense to not forget things due to this Charm.
Also, would denarian coins and Nicky's necktie be immune to this? As well as other human-made objects imbued with strong magics.
Even if the QM is insane enough not to make magic items resistant to this, the Coins at least are infused with a definitly non-human power.

3) Life-Denying Curse. Does it work on Crowned with Fury, Heart-Carving Wind and the like, where the target can spend damage / willpower to lower the duration of the curse? Specifically the " Each level of damage the target suffers to resist this Charm negates one success on the Infernal's roll, shortening its duration." (taken from CwF, others have something similar). And, if it does, then, for the sake of my sanity, what is stopping us from using it in combination with Crowned with Fury on Lasciel's coin (appropriate difficulty droppers and excellencies apply) then commanding Lasciel to repent? Which would either make her die (unhealable damage), or, well, repent.
We hopefully can't even target Lasciel while she is in the Coin.
And if we could she could her somehow, rather than just her current host, she would propably defend herself with divine power.

Combos like this are why beings on the tier of gods or angels definitly need shaping-defenses.
 
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That's a good point, at least some of these run into primacy of defense. Still, we could command her to return to hell at least. Not sure what the effect would be, but I doubt she'll be able to easily return. However, wiki page has an interesting part that I'll need to check in the book:

If they feel sad about what they lost, there's something we can act upon. I truly think that with enough exalted BS, it might well be possible to make at least some fallen to repent.

There's also Theft as Release for getting the coins away from the bearers.
I don't think that it would count if we used mind shaping charms to force it on them.

I also think Molly would never do it. Her character arc at this point was basically a prolonged lesson in why mind control doesn't actually solve your problems even when it looks like the perfect solution.
 
Could be that they're twitchy enough to have magical sensing equipment/wards up in their local place of power that detected us. I don't want to overestimate how "loud" we are, but it seems like it could be a factor.


Something like that makes more sense to me than a stakeout of these locations, because they aren't that interesting. It's a waste of manpower to stick people on them in most cases. Molly may need to learn to suck in her supernatural gut so to speak. Heaven help the person who needs to explain that to a 17 year old infernal.


It's either that, or Micheal is under subtle watch by everyone who matters and they tracked us from the moment we left town. But that doesn't seem like the kind of thing the white god would let us walk into blind.
1)Possible but unlikely.
They dont have that much magical muscle to spare, and not enough to risk it in the heart of the US during an active war with the White Council and its allies.


2)Thralls are cheap and disposable; you can literally grab people off the street, dump some Rampire spit in their drinks, condition them for a week and you have a bunch of operatives 90% of the time.
Mass produced tech like surveillance cameras you can buy off the shelf.

Magical talent and magical hardware? Much less so. Let alone skilled operatives.


3)I agree that White God shenanigans makes it unlikely for sustained surveillamce of Michael's movements to work.
Yeah. My bet is that the original group choked in the 50s, and that the red court swooped in to pick up the pieces, which is why this wasn't a problem till now.
Doubt it.
Setting up a nursing home and relying on subtle blandishments and undepricing the competition is not a Rampire thing, when they can just send a vampire round the homes with hypnosis bullshit.

Plus, the Finnish name naming suggests other powers in play.

My bet is that we're looking at a three way. At least.
The original group is back for a repeat, the Rampires got wind and are horning in for a takeover as upstart interlopers, and us as the third party coming in with a steel chair.

Bring it. Even discounting Lydia, we've got a knight of the cross with us against people with a type weakness to faith. We might as well be watching a Superman vs. the incredible kryptonite cyborg cage match. We already shredded a powerful red hit squad, I think it's unlikely that something stronger than they sent for Ebenezer of all people is waiting around in Cleveland.
An ambush team optimized to hit Ebenezer along the Ways with Outsider support?
Is very much not the same as one optimized to operate in reality.
Given as we dont know who they are working with here, I would caution about this.

You've got a point about being on the same page, but I still don't feel threatened here.
I don't want to get high on our own supply, but we're not Harry and this guy is not Mab. Our skill set isn't the same as his, and the set up here isn't arranged in a way that forces us to forgo our most effective options. Further, I'm not convinced that time is on our side here.


Not in the sense that there's a doomsday clock running (though there probably is something if a knight is needed), but in that they benefit from prep time more than we do now that they know we're in town.

Smashing their face in, using the crown to get everything we can out of this guy, and making a full court press before they can adjust might be the ticket here.
For all our advantages, giving them the space to get tricky in isn't good for us.
-Killing a Rampire spy does not actually resolve our issues.
Satisfying as it might be.

-We dont know how long they have been prepping for whatever they are doing here. Or who or what their allies might be.
I do not agree they benefit from preptime more than we do, especially since one of our goals is minimizing civilian casualties.
Hard to do so when you havent delineated the dimensions of the problem.

-I dont agree.
If this was simple, the White God wouldnt have sent a Knight of the Cross; a reporter would have started poking around the nursing home or something similar. There are always more complications than a quick bit of homicide would resolve.

-The Crown has limited uses per focus item or person.
Killing someone off immediately limits the amount of information we can get off the person.
Red Vampire; he literally lives on murder. When they change being sadistic assholes gets burned into the place they used to keep a soul. It's possible that he's the Drizzt of reds, but that sort of thing is significantly rarer for them than it is for white vampires. I can't recall it even being something considered by anyone in the books.

Full wizards can be forcibly changed, and be messily murdering their friends and family within the week.
Point of correction:
They are turned by murder. They can, and do, feed without killing their victims if they care to; Bianca's Court sported multiple examples iirc. But.
-Their control is often a lot more fragile than that of a Whampire.
-They are vulnerable to blood addiction, where they just lack any control
-And culturally, they just dont care as much about having to hide deaths.

There's a vampire spectrum with Whampires on one end, Rampires in the middle, and Blampires on the other.

Citation:
Word of Jim said:
Q:Are all red courts and black court vampires evil?
This is a pretty huge question and depends a lot on how you view the world.

Red Court vampires, by definition, to become a vampire, have to murder someone else to become what they are. They have to end another person's life to satisfy a desire that does not /need/ to be satisfied in order for them to continue living. Every single one of them makes a choice to sate that desire rather than allow another human being to live–the Fellowship of St. Giles proves that.
(Of course, there are shades of grey involved–a half-vampire who was kept starving and without water in a basement for three days before they were thrown a mortal has a much more difficult time making a clear-headed choice than a half-vampire who was restrained yet cared for by a group of religiously fanatic monks at a Fellowship stronghold, but there's still a choice being made.)

That could, by some people, be considered a working definition of evil. Sometimes unfortunate, sometimes understandable as to how someone could make that choice, but evil nonetheless.

Black Court Vamps are a different story. They're actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. They are driven to kill to survive. They don't really have a lot of choice about it. They enjoy being what they are, and doing what they do. They can be sad that they don't have someone who loves them, or upset that the world has passed them by and has changed on them, but at the end of the day, they're basically black-hearts who occasionally pull out a few of the tattered remains of their humanity, fail to fit back into them like they used to, and get maudlin about their glory days when they could watch the sun rise
Blampires are driven to kill to survive. Rampires, by implication, arent.

Its worth remembering that Michael went to the Red Court Ball in Grave Peril.
He does not like what Rampires are, and the Knights of the Cross are not Unseelie Accord signatories, but he didnt kill them on sight, and his vocation does not prevent him from diplomacy with them, provided they are not in active contravention of his avowed principles.
 
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Things like Mab or Nemesis can propably just use a Shaping Defense to not forget things due to this Charm.
It's arguable if they could, actually. The charm affects the victim, not everyone else. Yes, everyone else is affected, but only due to the target being changes. It probably cuts the target from Fate or something like this.
 
It's arguable if they could, actually. The charm affects the victim, not everyone else. Yes, everyone else is affected, but only due to the target being changes. It probably cuts the target from Fate or something like this.
If something changes our memories of a specific person we should be able to resist it with a Shaping Defence.
So it stands to reason other people can do the same.
 
Why? We could also just kill him, put a devil in his phone, and do the same to numbers in his call log. We could pick a random business in town and use another cyber devil in their system to call them about their car's extended warranty to make it less suspicious.
Because not everything is in a person's phone. Especially when magic is involved.

If he's working with a wizard/necromancer or certain classes of spirit or supernatural beastie, there isnt going to be a cellphone number to work with. If there's a grendelkin in the area, for example; they come from Scandinavia, adjacent to Finland. Or one of the Forest People. Or a bunch of spirits. Or wyldfae. Or a skinwalker.

Furthermore, if they have local opposition, putting a cyberdevil on the phone would allow us to eavesdrop on any plans for them.
Having a realtime eavesdropper and location tracker would allow us to estimate the size, aims and sophistication of the group he's working with. Which saves us time we can use elsewhere.

Like I said, my suspicions are that the Reds are only one of the groups in play here.
We still have to establish or disprove that hypothesis.
Our last case had multiple actors. I suspect this is likely to be much the same.

EDIT
Dude is approaching us instead of fleeing when discovered.
That speaks to someone who sees a situation where he/his faction could use allies or friends, instead of one they can solve alone without issue.
 
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An ambush team optimized to hit Ebenezer along the Ways with Outsider support?
Is very much not the same as one optimized to operate in reality.
Given as we dont know who they are working with here, I would caution about this.
As you mentioned, resource limitations are a thing. They can't have super blenders everywhere, and they're at war right now. I wouldn't say they're necessarily a soft target, but they're more vulnerable now than after they've had time to call for reinforcements.

-Killing a Rampire spy does not actually resolve our issues.
Satisfying as it might be.

-We dont know how long they have been prepping for whatever they are doing here. Or who or what their allies might be.
I do not agree they benefit from preptime more than we do, especially since one of our goals is minimizing civilian casualties.
Hard to do so when you havent delineated the dimensions of the problem.

-I dont agree.
If this was simple, the White God wouldnt have sent a Knight of the Cross; a reporter would have started poking around the nursing home or something similar. There are always more complications than a quick bit of homicide would resolve.

-The Crown has limited uses per focus item or person.
Killing someone off immediately limits the amount of information we can get off the person.
Letting him live doesn't help either, and might hurt. The crown does have limited uses, but we can ask for everything he knew about this situation in one question. It forgoes asking about stuff beyond that with this corpse, but it would give us an immediate outline of what's going on that we could react to without spending days figuring out what's happening.

Getting the most bang for our buck is important, but past a certain point the time is worth more. Getting a good picture right now is better than a perfect one in days.

Days they would use to bring in more vampires, demonic war animals, and other resources to make our job harder.

One dead vampire doesn't solve the problem, but a lot of them before they can adjust would. Which is something a journalist can't typically do.

The point I'm making here isn't to kill one dude and be done, it's that since we've been made we need to get aggressive. Spending days playing Dresden is giving up advantage we don't need to.


Point of correction:
They are turned by murder. They can, and do, feed without killing their victims if they care to; Bianca's Court sported multiple examples iirc. But.
-Their control is often a lot more fragile than that of a Whampire.
-They are vulnerable to blood addiction, where they just lack any control
-And culturally, they just dont care as much about having to hide deaths.

There's a vampire spectrum with Whampires on one end, Rampires in the middle, and Blampires on the other.
Yeah, they aren't as bad as black court vampires. But the effects on them are so strong that the difference doesn't matter much on a practical level.

Dresden directly talks about wardens being turned during the war and being used to fight in it later. If the supernatural willpower of a full wizard can't resist giving in to being a murder monster then the average person is screwed.

I'll admit that exceptions are possible, but they also aren't the rule. We hear about zero cases of non-monstrous reds in any canon material (that I'm aware of anyway). Which puts them below ghouls in terms of positive representation.

Micheal doesn't kill them on sight, but he doesn't kill Denarians on sight either. He's in a special place that takes a lot of faith to reach, not necessarily a rational standard of measure.

Because not everything is in a person's phone. Especially when magic is involved.

If he's working with a wizard/necromancer or certain classes of spirit or supernatural beastie, there isnt going to be a cellphone number to work with. If there's a grendelkin in the area, for example; they come from Scandinavia, adjacent to Finland. Or one of the Forest People. Or a bunch of spirits. Or wyldfae. Or a skinwalker.

Furthermore, if they have local opposition, putting a cyberdevil on the phone would allow us to eavesdrop on any plans for them.
Having a realtime eavesdropper and location tracker would allow us to estimate the size, aims and sophistication of the group he's working with. Which saves us time we can use elsewhere.

Like I said, my suspicions are that the Reds are only one of the groups in play here.
We still have to establish or disprove that hypothesis.
Our last case had multiple actors. I suspect this is likely to be much the same.

EDIT
Dude is approaching us instead of fleeing when discovered.
That speaks to someone who sees a situation where he/his faction could use allies or friends, instead of one they can solve alone without issue.
Yeah, but I was addressing your point about letting him live so we can run an attack using his phone records. We can get a lot of the same without wasting the time.

With the right question we can get most of the picture from this guy, if he has friends then they're more questions to ask.

Then we go to work and smash down the front door of their operations as quickly as we can. We can get more information from there and unravel this while playing to our strengths.

The more time people have to react to our presence, the better a job they will do of it. We aren't as good at playing the prep game as a major organization is, it's a matter of numbers, resources, and magical flexibility. More organizations doesn't change that fact.


That said, looking back at the chapter Micheal does imply we're willing to talk instead of shoot, so killing him while talking would be bad for our rep if we start it.

I still think we should kill him immediately and kick off a roiling fustercluck of violence because that environment favors us, but we should do it by following him home directly after this conversation or by provoking him to attack us.
 
That said, looking back at the chapter Micheal does imply we're willing to talk instead of shoot, so killing him while talking would be bad for our rep if we start it.

I still think we should kill him immediately and kick off a roiling fustercluck of violence because that environment favors us, but we should do it by following him home directly after this conversation or by provoking him to attack us.
Reputation with who exactly?
 
More in the general sense. Unless we kill literally everyone involved being known to stab people after saying you won't unless they start it makes you look bad.

It's not a deal breaker, and people still do it all the time in the books, but it is a factor.
My mind is just reeling that this of all things is what makes you reconsider your stance of shiving someone trying to talk with us.
 
Reputation with who exactly?
The general supernatural community.
Your likelihood to get cooperation and general diplomacy goes down if you get a reputation for shooting first and often, even when the other person is offering a tentative parley.

Its hard to negotiate when other people worry you will try to shoot them on sight.

Its worth remembering that Knights of the Cross talk to everyone in good faith.
Even Denarians.
There's noone so bad that a Knight will not talk if they offer parley and noone is being harmed by it.
 
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My mind is just reeling that this of all things is what makes you reconsider your stance of shiving someone trying to talk with us.
It made me reconsider where to kill the guy, not if we should do it.

I'm not trying to be contradictory here. My position is that we can be highly certain that this guy is a monster, and that he's specifically involved in what we're here to deal with.

He is not innocent, he is not a bystander, and killing him saves his future victims.

Our build makes us good at killing things and quickly getting answers others can't. The red court's (and any other organization present) advantage in resources and backing means they can be flexible with time to respond, but can't commit too much strength to any one problem because they've got other concerns.

Therefore, a high operational tempo is to our advantage. We can get answers quicker than anyone else and abuse our blending to press while they're out of position.

Doing more regular investigation forgoes our speed advantage to save questions and allows anyone involved to shuffle their resources around to deal with us. Which is to say, gives up one of our biggest advantages and allow our opponents to engage one of their's.

If the choice is letting him walk for days or killing him right now then I'd go for the latter, but if waiting an hour or provoking him to start it gives us some marginal future advantage then that might be worth it. They break their word all the time, so we have some flex here if we don't make a habit of it.
 
[X] Yog

Let's not kill him right away. Use our superhumanly threatening demeanor to get him to spill his metaphorical guts, then decide if we're going to make him spill them literally. We can always kill him after we get more information, but we can't unkill him if we realize we needed something from him later.
 
Our build makes us good at killing things and quickly getting answers others can't. The red court's (and any other organization present) advantage in resources and backing means they can be flexible with time to respond, but can't commit too much strength to any one problem because they've got other concerns.
We are leagues better at murder, but this still seems nakedly incorrect to me.

We DO have exalted social skills. Even if we aren't at table shatteringly supernaturaly good at them yet.

Its worth remembering that Knights of the Cross talk to everyone in good faith.
Even Denarians.
There's noone so bad that a Knight will not talk if they offer parley and noone is being harmed by it.
Maybe there's a message to be taken from that 🤔

I suppose one could use that to say "the knights are suckers."

I'm sure some Denarians say that.

[X] Yog
 
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We are leagues better at murder, but this still seems nakedly incorrect to me.

We DO have exalted social skills. Even if we aren't at table shatteringly supernaturaly good at them yet
Yeah, but it's not the majority of our strength and doesn't help with the problem I'm concerned with.

The longer they have to react to our presence, and the calmer that period is, the better they can adjust and prepare. Social fu doesn't stop them from doing that even if it makes them less likely to immediately engage with us.

A roiling fustercluck of violence from nowhere bouncing from facility to facility while they try to figure out what the hell is going on is harder for them to do something to counter than assaults that come from known quantities they've had at least a few days to prep for.
 
How much contact/interaction is required for Nfection to occur?
Like, could a photo sent to someone's cell phone, or a voicemail, or something like that induce Nfection in someone?
 
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