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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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FriedIce said:
Look, this is basically the FBI scrambling trying to figure out what the fuck is going on since the War between the Red Court and White Council erupted. Everything we've seen indicates that these people are in wildly over their heads.

They need someone to give them a basic primer on the supernatural or they'll accidentally insult a Winter Fae or something similarly dumb. Harry's not going to do it after all - he's more likely to sit in the chair and insult them for a few hours and then hold a massive grudge. He doesn't even explain stuff to Karen Murphy.


At no point did we admit to committing a felony. We admitted to knowing what was going on, and we implied we scryed them. That isn't against the law unless Congress passed a bunch of 'magic illegal' laws whilst no-one was looking. And more to the point, good luck proving that in court.
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Covertly eavesdropping on government agents is a crime, and if they're federal it's a felony. The law doesn't lay out exact methods.

They need info on some level, and we should arrange for them to get some, but that isn't the same as trusting them because they are obviously untrustworthy. Being official means nothing, especially when they're clearly acting against their own mandate.

These guys are dragging Harry off on a bogus charge to force him to do what they want. Why wouldn't he turn around and do the same to us?

We have exactly zero effective means of stopping him, because we have not contacts or leverage yet.

These guys aren't our friends, and they're not even trying to play nice, don't project a buddy cop movie onto their actions.

Remember they saw a neo nazi frame job in progress and decided to abet it then hijack the result for their own gain.

Maybe they're better than I expect, but right now they've only shown interest in exploiting people. The implication is that they'll turn that towards protecting people, but they don't get to hide behind implications when breaking the laws they should be enforcing.

That should be kept in mind until we know enough to accurately judge their character as a whole.
 
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Before we can get something to disguise Mollys identity I can see no good reason to engage with Americas alphabet agencies.

[X] Go to Father Forthil like your dad suggested, see if there is anything he can do for Harry
 
[X] Call Agent Wright to… smooth things over
-[X] "Ok, I've seen enough. Firstly, they're called the White Council, not the Lawmakers. Secondly, Dresden is a Regional Commander in the middle of a war against the Vampires - if the Council find out that you've kidnapped him they're going to overreact. Finally, he was with me all day helping me chase down a coven of Nazi Necromancers so there's no way he could have murdered Greene and I'll swear that three times under Oath.
-[X] "Look, you all seem well intentioned and I'd rather not get into a pissing match with the US government so let Dresden go and I'll meet you and give you a basic primer on what you can expect to find out there
-[X] "And I will know if you use this to try and trick Dresden into something, and I will be very displeased."
-[X] If he asks how you got his number say "magic".
 
[X] Go to Father Forthil like your dad suggested, see if there is anything he can do for Harry
-[X] Ask if the white council can be contacted ASAP!
 
Yog said:
Being warden commander is not something these guys know, but it makes Dresden more valuable as a hostage.
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My logic for dropping it in there was that it explains why the White Council will overreact. They just kidnapped a military commander in the middle of a war - they need to know how serious that is.

Goldfish said:
So, what? That gives them the right to kidnap and blackmail Harry? To experiment on him?
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Mate, you're coming off as a paranoiac.

At no point in the update do they mention wanting to experiment on Harry. They mention they're doing some minor tests with some current minor talents with the Library of Congress researchers - but nothing that would set alarm bells off.

As for the approach. This is just how the spooks operate - there's a fairly credible case to be made against Dresden for Greene's death if you don't know about the supernatural and they're offering to make it go away in return for him helping them.
 
Yog said:
Look, this is way too needlessly confrontational. Government agencies do not, can not admit weakness and surrender to foreign elements on their soil. This is not part of their mandate. This is trying to establish dominance. This will not work. Cannot work - we don't have the muscle to do this, and we would require muscle. This is basically calling US government out with "no, you don't get to have jurisdiction in your own country". Our words are not backed with nuclear weapons yet.
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It is confrontational, but that is completely unavoidable at this point. Harry is not going to cooperate with them and they've already proven they can't be trusted not to try to go harder than they already have.

Right now, absolute best case is that Harry escapes and his life is completely exploded, no going back, he'll have to relocate and that will fuck up Chicago in multiple ways.

What do y'all think the White Council's reaction to this is going to be? A lot of Senior Council members might not be his biggest fans, but Harry is popular among the rank and file and the effin Blackstaff is his grandpa. This sort of provocation cannot go unanswered.
No7sHere said:
I'm not sure where this idea that they're experimenting on Harry is coming from.
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It is right there in the update, 'espers' are regularly pulled out of the field to participate in 'research'. What do you think that means, that they are having their subjects browse the net for magic stuff? Sure, they're probably not vivisecting them, but it's still experimentation.

And they've never had a full blown wizard to test, just minor talents. There is no way someone doesn't get it in their head to learn more.
 
[X] Call Agent Wright to… smooth things over
-[X] "Ok, I've seen enough. Firstly, they're called the White Council, not the Lawmakers. Secondly, Dresden is a Regional Commander in the middle of a war against the Vampires - if the Council find out that you've kidnapped him they're going to overreact. Finally, he was with me all day helping me chase down a coven of Nazi Necromancers so there's no way he could have murdered Greene and I'll swear that three times under Oath.
-[X] "Look, you all seem well intentioned and I'd rather not get into a pissing match with the US government so let Dresden go and I'll meet you and give you a basic primer on what you can expect to find out there
-[X] "And I will know if you use this to try and trick Dresden into something, and I will be very displeased."
-[X] If he asks how you got his number say "magic".
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For those of you voting for this option, can you please at least include a modicum of caution where our identity is concerned?
 
Goldfish said:
It is confrontational, but that is completely unavoidable at this point. Harry is not going to cooperate with them and they've already proven they can't be trusted not to try to go harder than they already have.

Right now, absolute best case is that Harry escapes and his life is completely exploded, no going back, he'll have to relocate and that will fuck up Chicago in multiple ways.

What do y'all think the White Council's reaction to this is going to be? A lot of Senior Council members might not be his biggest fans, but Harry is popular among the rank and file and the effin Blackstaff is his grandpa. This sort of provocation cannot go unanswered.
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Harry is a terrorist who regularly kidnaps USA citizens to have their heads chopped off. Or, at least, that's his job description - to summarily execute people, including USA citizens, for crimes that are not established in any of USA criminal codes, in the name of political agenda of a foreign power. Let's face it, wardens are, from the perspective of USA government, terrorists. And that's a valid perspective, unless more information is provided, and communication channels are established.

There are two outcomes:
1) Escalating blue on blue conflict to the delight of the enemies of humanity
2) Someone makes the first move to disarm the situation.
 
FriedIce said:
As for the approach. This is just how the spooks operate - there's a fairly credible case to be made against Dresden for Greene's death if you don't know about the supernatural and they're offering to make it go away in return for him helping them
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They do know the truth though, and "spooks just be that way" isn't an excuse.

Even if it's true, that just means they won't stop doing this shit and can be trusted less.

They saw a vulnerable person from the spooky side of the street and took him for their own purposes. We are an even more vulnerable person from the spooky side of the street.

Help is a stupid way to put this, because if the cops know something involved in an investigation is fake, their job is to correct it. It'd complicated in this case, but it's never a favor, or any level of acceptable, for a law enforcement officer to extort you to get them to do their job.

Why are you giving them rope to hang us with?
 
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FriedIce said:
Mate, you're coming off as a paranoiac.

At no point in the update do they mention wanting to experiment on Harry. They mention they're doing some minor tests with some current minor talents with the Library of Congress researchers - but nothing that would set alarm bells off.

As for the approach. This is just how the spooks operate - there's a fairly credible case to be made against Dresden for Greene's death if you don't know about the supernatural and they're offering to make it go away in return for him helping them.
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It isn't paranoia if the MIB really does kidnap you with plans to blackmail you with threats of blowing up your life if you don't cooperate.
 
[X] Go to Father Forthil like your dad suggested, see if there is anything he can do for Harry
 
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[X] Go to Father Forthil like your dad suggested, see if there is anything he can do for Harry
-[X] Ask if the white council can be contacted ASAP!

BronzeTongue said:
We are an even more vulnerable person from the spooky side of the street.
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We really aren't, but I admit we might look that way for muggles.
If shit really goes down we are better suited to staying in the Umbra than most mortals, or starting a new life outside USA or with a perfect dusguise within.
 
I can see the point of getting Dresden out first. Deny leverage. But we'll need to talk to these guys afterwards. Otherwise, this will keep happening. If these guys are "bad government out to put chips in our heads", we'll have to deal with them. If they are "Mulder and Scully trying to get law abiding USA citizens not eaten by werewolves", we'll have to set them straight and explain what's going on.
 
Artemis1992 said:
We really aren't, but I admit we might look that way for muggles.
If shit really goes down we are better suited to staying in the Umbra than most mortals, or starting a new life outside USA or with a perfect dusguise within.
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We absolutely are, because we have a life and want to keep it. Our family is pretty vulnerable too, because these guys are full mortals acting for full mortal reasons.

They could play half as dirty with us as they just did with Dresden and still screw up the Carpenter's lives.
 
Thought. We could turn the crown on the Library of Congress's Esper research.

[q]Has the Library of Congress in the course of Esper research done anything likely to offend my sense of ethics?

for an example if we want to assess things.
 
OctarineShrike said:
Thought. We could turn the crown on the Library of Congress's Esper research.

[q]Has the Library of Congress in the course of Esper research done anything likely to offend my sense of ethics?

for an example if we want to assess things.
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What's the point of that, though? We've already expended a great deal of Essence today and Harry is still kidnapped.

At best, we'll learn that the research wing of the kidnapping conspiracy hasn't done anything morally reprehensible.

If we were going to use the Crown to ask a question, it should be to learn about Agent Cole. It's all fun and games kidnapping and blackmailing people when you think your family is safe and you can go home at the end of the day and pretend you are just a normal guy. Right up until an anonymous tip leads to the discovery of child pornography on your home computer, or worse.
 
[X] Call Agent Wright to… smooth things over
-[X] "Ok, I've seen enough. Firstly, they're called the White Council, not the Lawmakers. Secondly, Dresden is a Regional Commander in the middle of a war against the Vampires - if the Council find out that you've kidnapped him they're going to overreact. Finally, he was with me all day helping me chase down a coven of Nazi Necromancers so there's no way he could have murdered Greene and I'll swear that three times under Oath.
-[X] "Look, you all seem well intentioned and I'd rather not get into a pissing match with the US government so let Dresden go and I'll meet you and give you a basic primer on what you can expect to find out there
-[X] "And I will know if you use this to try and trick Dresden into something, and I will be very displeased."
-[X] If he asks how you got his number say "magic".
 
I think talking to Father Forthill is a good idea, but yeah either the Feds need to be corrected on what they're dealing with or someone level-headed on the White Council needs to be alerted.

Because I can't imagine the White Council is going to take the time to do this gently if they find out, they don't exactly have the time or resources to play nice and they can't really afford to leave their big stick in Chicago out of position.
 
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