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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
By the laws of Chicago, Molly is as much a criminal as Marcone.

I mean, she just absconded from the scene of one shooting, killed a bunch of Red Court vampires a couple days ago, and is entirely willing to kill a bunch of Denarians when they show up.
Michael himself has fought and presumably killed a bunch of Nicodemus cultists.

People really need to remember that much of the magic community is at best extralegal by the standards of most mortal criminal codes, and at worst very very criminal. Before they start using Marcone's status as a gang boss as an excuse to get all snooty.
The White Council executing people for breaking their laws is not legal in any country, no matter how justified they are.

Let alone their waging international war across at least three continents.


WE are a criminal organization.
The White Council is a criminal organization. The White Court is a criminal organization. The Red Court is a criminal organization.
Every major magic organization with a presence in mortal areas routinely breaks the law in its host society.

Dont delude yourself otherwise.

And the idea that we can "dismantle his cancer infecting our city" is pure tosh.
We do not have the capacity to end organized crime without becoming organized crime.
And frankly, Marcone serves a purpose in keeping a lot of supernaturals out of his turf.
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I don't really get this argument, even though I didn't really have an argument myself.

The problem isn't that he isn't law abiding. I for one definitely don't think the law is good because its the law. But because it prevents harm.

If Marcone prevents harm, thats one thing. But he also causes some. The net is positive even so.

Nothing says we can't destroy Marcone and install something thats even more positive though? Why shouldn't we?

If the question is calculus of net good anyway...

It would take organization, demons, spirits and probably some form of negotiation or mental Charms but...thats not a negative to me.

If the end result is better, then sure.
 
Valkhir said:
I don't really get this argument, even though I didn't really have an argument myself.

The problem isn't that he isn't law abiding. I for one definitely don't think the law is good because its the law. But because it prevents harm.

If Marcone prevents harm, thats one thing. But he also causes some. The net is positive even so.

Nothing says we can't destroy Marcone and install something thats even more positive though? Why shouldn't we?

If the question is calculus of net good anyway...

It would take organization, demons, spirits and probably some form ofnegotiation or mental Charms but...thats not a negative to me.

If the end result is better, then sure.
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Time constraints kind of prevent that really also who marcone is arguably a net good with shit he fucks up and stuff he prevents.

honestly not sure I see us using most kinds of mental charms ever with our experience and how many frown on it.
 
uju32 said:
WE are a criminal organization.
The White Council is a criminal organization. The White Court is a criminal organization. The Red Court is a criminal organization.
Every major magic organization with a presence in mortal areas routinely breaks the law in its host society.

Dont delude yourself otherwise.

And the idea that we can "dismantle his cancer infecting our city" is pure tosh.
We do not have the capacity to end organized crime without becoming organized crime.
And frankly, Marcone serves a purpose in keeping a lot of supernaturals out of his turf.
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Marcone runs a malum in se organization that would crash and burn if it ever tried to go legal or become independent. The White Court is a malum prohibitum organization which is already mostly independent.

A while back I read a fascinating study on how criminal syndicates like the mafia are very much dependent on being illegal to operate.
For example, part of the reason many low-level goons work for the syndicate is that they have criminal records, which would make it hard for them to find a legitimate job, so they're stuck in jobs of dealing addictive drugs, extorting money, and getting in shootouts with competing syndicates. And working there is criminal in itself, which helps to keep them there.
If their criminal records were removed by public amnesty or the like, a lot of them would quickly start looking for jobs where they aren't getting in shootouts and the boss doesn't threaten to have them killed for failure.
Whereas at the top, the boss has to use criminal methods and threats to keep his goons in line, because if he tried to stick to law-abiding methods he'd find himself outcompeted, both from other bosses and from legitimate employment.
 
We may or may not need to take action against Marcone in the future. Who knows how the future will play out, or what butterflies our actions have already unleashed upon the world?

What I do know, however, is that any move we make against him will need to be well into the future, when our personal power and resources have increased significantly. Until that time, we should at least try to avoid making him an enemy. In the meantime, we might even want to try to cultivate him as a contact or resource.
 
firefrog600 said:
Time constraints kind of prevent that really also who marcone is arguably a net good with shit he fucks up and stuff he prevents.
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I never argued that Marcone isn't a net good. But why not make a better good?

Edit: To be clear I agree with not doing so for a while. A good long while.

But at the end of the day, I would advocate for going against him when we are strong.
 
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Exmorri said:
Marcone runs a malum in se organization that would crash and burn if it ever tried to go legal or become independent. The White Court is a malum prohibitum organization which is already mostly independent.

A while back I read a fascinating study on how criminal syndicates like the mafia are very much dependent on being illegal to operate.
For example, part of the reason many low-level goons work for the syndicate is that they have criminal records, which would make it hard for them to find a legitimate job, so they're stuck in jobs of dealing addictive drugs, extorting money, and getting in shootouts with competing syndicates. And working there is criminal in itself, which helps to keep them there.
If their criminal records were removed by public amnesty or the like, a lot of them would quickly start looking for jobs where they aren't getting in shootouts and the boss doesn't threaten to have them killed for failure.
Whereas at the top, the boss has to use criminal methods and threats to keep his goons in line, because if he tried to stick to law-abiding methods he'd find himself outcompeted, both from other bosses and from legitimate employment.
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marcone does actually have plenty of legal income and legal businesses mind you he'd personally be fine not really get what he wants though.
 
CorruptedKing said:
I'm fairly sure that essence is just an insanely large amount of the aforementioned.
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I don't have the book on me right now, but in the beginning of Exalted 2ed core book at least it states directly that everything is essence. That the world itself is made of essence, which is expressed in different form. Basically, if you advance past string theory, the endpoint of your investigation of the structure of the world will be the discovery of motonic science.

I am fairly sure that the world of Dresdenverse is not made out of mana. I mean, in WoD the Exalted statement would be true, and the world would just be very "thin", but I believe there is a qualitative difference between mana and essence right now. A phase change, if you wish.
 
firefrog600 said:
oh no we do we could totally go full conqueror eventually if we wanted to doesn't make it you know morally sound. Marcone does kill his own men who cross the line like kidnapping rings and selling drugs to kids hes a decent deterrent to the worse mortal crime.

We could definitely delete crime if we went full totalitarian monster.
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Yeah, thats within our capabilities, even if I dont think anyone here has the stomach to play what it would take.
But I dont see how people can sit down here and go "Marcone is a criminal" and use that as a justification without the slightest bit of self awareness.

Meantime Michael and the other Knights are but the latest agents in an underground war of counterintelligence and murder that has lasted centuries; we KNOW OOC that the Knights killed the bearer of Ursiel here in Chicago a year or two ago, and got in a firefight with Nicodemus cultists in the same week.

The White Council has been fighting a war against the Red Court for three years now, with the deaths of thousands.
While cutting off the heads of people who break their laws, whether those people have heard of them before or not.
Artemis1992 said:
Marcone has a mundane criminal organisation though.
He does actual crimes, along the lines of drug sale, smuggling, protection rackets, etc. for actual profit.

To me that is a very different thing to being a supernatural organisation that acts in its own world and occasionally ignores the laws of whatever country they are currently in to kill their foes.

Also I don't think killing Red Court Vampires is all that illegal. If someone had seen us fight a bunch of bat-monsters, would they use that to accuse us under US-law of anything?
Denarian-minions are a different matter though, being still human and such.
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Yes, he runs a criminal organization, collects protection money, runs gambling and adult prostitution rings, some smuggling, probably drugs. He also provides protection against a lot of minor magical threats in his claimed territory that the law is wilfully blind to, limits the activity of said crimes within limits,

Occasionally ignores? My dude, the White Council - Red Court War has killed several thousand people in one battle alone as collateral damage. I assure you that if the mortals found out, they'd have zero chill about it. Just like they'd be distinctly pissed about the coverup of the Darkhallow where the Kemmlerites almost successfully murder Chicago.

Red Court vampires are cannibalistic serial killers.
The law however frowns against vigilante justice on even cannibalistic serial killers.

And its not just Denarian minions
Black Court vampires use Renfields as agents, and they are fully mortal.
===
The point I am making is that by the letter and spirit of mortal law, every major magic organization is a criminal organization.
At the very minimum, they are accomplices to the coverup of multiple major ongoing felonies and terrorist incidents locally and internationally. A lot of times they are perpetrators.

Very few people here have the moral high ground to condemn Marcone for running an organized crime gig.
Dude probably kills fewer mortals in a year than the White Council.
Certainly has a lower killcount than Dresden.
 
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uju32 said:
===
The point I am making is that by the letter and spirit of mortal law, every major magic organization is a criminal organization.
At the very minimum, they are accomplices to the coverup of multiple major ongoing felonies and terrorist incidents locally and internationally. A lot of times they are perpetrators.

Very few people here have the moral high ground to condemn Marcone for running an organized crime gig.
Dude probably kills fewer mortals in a year than the White Council.
Certainly has a lower killcount than Dresden.
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And I remain firmly set on the hill that there is a difference between a mundane criminal and someone who lives in an entirely different world and keeps to the laws of that world, not the laws of the mundane states they are operating in.

In a sense you could say every adult Wizard in Harry Potter is a criminal for not paying income-taxes to muggle-authorities, but that seems pointless in the actual context of the story.
 
Interest check:

Who'd like to ask for the location of all the bones and tell it to the monks?

Simply because it'd be the decent thing to do.
 
Yog said:
I don't have the book on me right now, but in the beginning of Exalted 2ed core book at least it states directly that everything is essence. That the world itself is made of essence, which is expressed in different form. Basically, if you advance past string theory, the endpoint of your investigation of the structure of the world will be the discovery of motonic science.

I am fairly sure that the world of Dresdenverse is not made out of mana. I mean, in WoD the Exalted statement would be true, and the world would just be very "thin", but I believe there is a qualitative difference between mana and essence right now. A phase change, if you wish.
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reality definitely works on some different levels then it used to heck it could be multiple reality iterations ago that exalted took place in or sideways or most likely a mixture of things many of which we are unlikely to ever know.
uju32 said:
Yeah, thats within our capabilities, even if I dont think anyone here has the stomach to play what it would take.
But I dont see how people can sit down here and go "Marcone is a criminal" and use that as a justification without the slightest bit of self awareness.

Meantime Michael and the other Knights are but the latest agents in an underground war of counterintelligence and murder that has lasted centuries; we KNOW OOC that the Knights killed the bearer of Ursiel here in Chicago a year or two ago, and got in a firefight with Nicodemus cultists in the same week.

The White Council has been fighting a war against the Red Court for three years now, with the deaths of thousands.
While cutting off the heads of people who break their laws, whether those people have heard of them before or not.

Yes, he runs a criminal organization, collects protection money, runs gambling and adult prostitution rings, some smuggling, probably drugs. He also provides protection against a lot of minor magical threats in his claimed territory that the law is wilfully blind to, limits the activity of said crimes within limits,

Occasionally ignores? My dude, the White Council - Red Court War has killed several thousand people in one battle alone as collateral damage. I assure you that if the mortals found out, they'd have zero chill about it. Just like they'd be distinctly pissed about the coverup of the Darkhallow where the Kemmlerites almost successfully murder Chicago.

Red Court vampires are cannibalistic serial killers.
The law however frowns against vigilante justice on even cannibalistic serial killers.

And its not just Denarian minions
Black Court vampires use Renfields as agents, and they are fully mortal.
===
The point I am making is that by the letter and spirit of mortal law, every major magic organization is a criminal organization.
At the very minimum, they are accomplices to the coverup of multiple major ongoing felonies and terrorist incidents locally and internationally. A lot of times they are perpetrators.

Very few people here have the moral high ground to condemn Marcone for running an organized crime gig.
Dude probably kills fewer mortals in a year than the White Council.
Certainly has a lower killcount than Dresden.
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yeah I mostly agree though the dresden things arguable hes killed as much as marcone human wise hes definitely killed far less. by this book dresdens saved countries worth of people about 4 times now and thousands in some books right?
 
Question: is it a criminal act if the government does it?
Answer: no because it's the government and they say it's fine so it's fine but only if they do it.

I'm fairly sure the white council is a global shadow government that has existed since before any modern governments even existed, it wouldn't surprise me if they had members involved in every possible government even if only to coverup stuff because it's easier than telling everyone.
 
uju32 said:
But I dont see how people can sit down here and go "Marcone is a criminal" and use that as a justification without the slightest bit of self awareness....

The point I am making is that by the letter and spirit of mortal law, every major magic organization is a criminal organization.
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Still don't know what this has to do with morality.

What did the White Council kill? Vampires, beings preying on humans? I have no problem.

Warlocks? Depends, though usually its a practical solution to just lop off heads because corruptive metaphysics.

I think Marcone and his group is something we should destroy at some point, and take over its positive aspects while not inheriting the negative.

I also do think the White Council is the same niche, which is a negative thing that nonetheless has a positive effect.

Does this mean I would advocate doing the same thing to the White Council as to Marcone? Maybe trying for reforms isntead of destruction, but in the end... If its within our power to do so, and to fulfill their positive niche better than them, yes. Using Kingdom, mundane or magical resources or Exalted effects like Crafting, Sorcery etc.

Do I think its likely that this will ACTUALLY happen? Not really, unless they get massively decimated, we can somehow influence them to change (lmao) or we somehow build an organization to rival them enough that they have to compromise some (???).

So, not likely.
 
CorruptedKing said:
Question: is it a criminal act if the government does it?
Answer: no because it's the government and they say it's fine so it's fine but only if they do it.

I'm fairly sure the white council is a global shadow government that has existed since before any modern governments even existed, it wouldn't surprise me if they had members involved in every possible government even if only to coverup stuff because it's easier than telling everyone.
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they notably actually don't have almost any working in government positions largely because if they did they could be divided and thats a huge no no lots of connections though.
 
Valkhir said:
I think Marcone and his group is something we should destroy at some point, and take over its positive aspects while not inheriting the negative.
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IIRC Harry's stance on Marcone is that he is the least evil.

Aka, yes he is on the list to be taken care of. But at the very bottom.

So if he ever gets rid of the red court, the white court, the black court, various fairy predators, etc then eventually he'll take care of Marcone.

Very eventually.
 
uju32 said:
But I dont see how people can sit down here and go "Marcone is a criminal" and use that as a justification without the slightest bit of self awareness.
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This is why I brought up the distinction of malum in se and malum prohibitum.
The former means "criminal" in the sense of being objectionable in its own right - stuff that is intuitively criminal.
The latter means "criminal" in the sense of doing something contrary to the law - stuff which is easy to imagine legalized. For example trading onion futures.

I can't speak for other posters, but I imagine a lot of the people saying "Marcone is a criminal" mean the first thing, while the "you're criminal too" rebuttals drift into the second thing.

To put it another way: Marcone does things that should be banned. Molly does not.
 
LightLan said:
IIRC Harry's stance on Marcone is that he is the least evil.

Aka, yes he is on the list to be taken care of. But at the very bottom.

So if he ever gets rid of the red court, the white court, the black court, various fairy predators, etc then eventually he'll take care of Marcone.

Very eventually.
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he also knows there are relatively necessary evils by the way I'm totally for annihilating the red court again even if their a stop gap for previous things that exist whether through trappings, deals, and you know just general occupation of areas other things can take care of once their dead. Murder of red court is a solution I always support also you know killing ebenezar is a huge blow to white council still don't think it would of been a deciding factor in the war unless there are things we don't know which is definitely possible.
 
[x] Send Jerry off with the cash, if he gets jumped that is on him

[X] Crown of Eyes: Ask for all the locations of the bones and give them to the monks, discreetly.
There does seem to be interest in doing the monks a good thing, but let's not be an idiot about it and wait for Marcone's dudes to be gone.
 
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LightLan said:
[x] Send Jerry off with the cash, if he gets jumped that is on him

[X] Crown of Eyes: Ask for all the locations of the stolen bones and give them to the monks, discreetly.
There does seem to be interest in doing the monks a good thing, but let's not be an idiot about it and wait for Marcone's dudes to be gone.
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of course though I'll not unsure we actually have to say our questions out loud also unsure how long they take in real time they could be near instantaneous or a few seconds so not something to do in combat.
 
This only uses up the question about "bones taken by the Ahnenerb that these monks are looking for" right?

firefrog600 said:
of course though I'll not unsure we actually have to say our questions out loud also unsure how long they take in real time they could be near instantaneous or a few seconds so not something to do in combat.
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When we used it next to Harry it was instant, even though we experienced more time.
 
firefrog600 said:
of course though I'll not unsure we actually have to say our questions out loud also unsure how long they take in real time they could be near instantaneous or a few seconds so not something to do in combat.
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I don't think so, the only one we asked was answered very fast.

We spent more subjective time inside the vision than time actually had passed, when asking about the soulgaze.

But we do have to pass the answer on to the monks and that I don't want to do in front of Marcone's goons.
 
LightLan said:
[x] Send Jerry off with the cash, if he gets jumped that is on him

[X] Crown of Eyes: Ask for all the locations of the stolen bones and give them to the monks, discreetly.
There does seem to be interest in doing the monks a good thing, but let's not be an idiot about it and wait for Marcone's dudes to be gone.
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this also doesn't include bones that might not be stolen just lost.
 
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