I have two issues with this first and foremost, one is that it pushes that prototyping to the last turn it is possible to do so, and second is that adding shields properly might take up enough compartment space like the other modules (10-15 space) that we have to drop having a second sublight engine. Which is currently really the only thing we'd be able to hold over competitors.

Sure we might be able to have blasters and a shield, which will make us not a standout in the negative sense of not having one of those things, but we will probably be just like all the other submissions for the courier job—only worse because we'd have a subpar Blaster and be one of the slower options.
Yes we'd be doing prototyping on the last turn but since the QM has already told us that we don't need to roll to start prototyping, and thus risk delays on failing a roll, I think any flaws or problems that come up in the prototype phase are going to be more "choose your tradeoffs" rather than "pray to RNGsus." Or at least, any RNGsus rolls will follow the example of the prototype action and not cause a delay if they fail. Though if @Jax is willing to give some examples of problems that might occur during prototyping it could clear things up. We've already made an eaten our traditional poor cockpit roll anyway, so that's already delt with.

As for compartments and speed, don't forget that the Special Armor takes up compartments too. If I did the math right, starting with -10/50 compartments we add 30 for both engines, 10 for the HD, and 1 for the Cargo, which gives us 19 Compartments spare to fit the Blaster and Shield. And we don't need to buy the super best massive strong shield either, since weak shields are the norm.

It's not like I don't think we can make a good ship without the shield, it's that after the talk with our father I think that a ship with a shield will sell better than one without. We aren't just trying to design a working ship right now, we have have to design a working ship that also sells well enough that our company doesn't go bankrupt.

As for the speed, I don't think we're going to be slower than most of the competition. If I understood the system right, our flat number is a modifier, and we need to roll either above or below what the second number is. It terms of speed, our ship is currently 50/70 with 5 re-rolls. If we need to roll above 70 that means we have 5 chances to roll above a 20 minimum. If we need to roll below, that means we have 5 chances to roll below a 120.
 
Based on the +50 bonus and rerolls im confidant we are going to blow the speed rolls out of the Park. Because assuming we are doing high good on d100s then we have a 74% chance per roll of being faster then required.


Imagine if we manage to nat crit the speed and mavunverability rolls. We would have the contest in the bag as long as we don't screw up elsewhere.
 
We don't even need to Nat100 the maneuverability rolls. Even if we roll 1 on all of our 5/6 rolls, we are still at 51 maneuverability out of 25.
I'm included Maneuverability because the low target makes it even more hilarious.

Also it opens up the ship up for more buyers from the "freelance light freighter captians"( smuggler) market
 
Both Blaster and Shields are likely to take up at least 10 compartments each (heck, it would even make sense to me if the systems for those things took up even more space), given the numbers we already have for all the other major compartments, and it's incredibly likely that at least one of them takes 15 compartment imo. That makes 19 compartment space inadequate by those standards.

If I understood the system right, our flat number is a modifier, and we need to roll either above or below what the second number is. It terms of speed, our ship is currently 50/70 with 5 re-rolls. If we need to roll above 70 that means we have 5 chances to roll above a 20 minimum. If we need to roll below, that means we have 5 chances to roll below a 120.

Those numbers only hold true for the dual engine plan I drew up a couple updates ago, that's where we get the 5 rerolls and +50 from, which is why I want that to begin with. Let me recalculate for what you were talking about and see what we're working with.

If we can get word of QM that pushing off off prototyping to next turn is fine and we won't pay for it by there being options for refining said prototype that we miss, than I'm fine with looking at more options. That being said, I still don't think we will be able to have the best of both worlds with dual engines and enough space for all the regular compartments.

Edit: Here is the mockup of everything minus advanced armor.
Aurek Design
Ship Class: Light Freighter / Courier
Compartment: 31 / 50
Speed: 50 / 75 (R5)
Maneuverability: 50 / 25 (R3)
Weapons: 0 / 10
Special Compartment: 5 / 10 (Cargo Mod)
Cost: 16 / 35

Also, keep in mind that the score on the right is the bare minimum the job wants, but we also still have to compete with all the other submissions who are likely to not have outdated drives and crappy blasters like we do; so if we have to remove one of the engines we would be looking at +30 speed and R3. And our maneuverability goes way down as well.
 
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Those numbers only hold true for the dual engine plan I drew up a couple updates ago, that's where we get the 5 rerolls and +50 from, which is why I want that to begin with. Let me recalculate for what you were talking about and see what we're working with.
Yes, and I explicitly calculated my numbers with the dual engines since taking one of them away removes a bug chunk of our speed bonus. Just like the numbers you posted: 50 Compartments total - 31 Compartments full = 19 Compartments free.

Also once again, those numbers on the right are not the minimum, they are just what the customer is asking for. We have been explicitly told what the customer asks for may not be realistic.
The customer wishes to have a ship with such a speed stat. How realistic it is for your company to pull it off is a different question. The stat numbers that represent the customer don't have to be realistic.
They want you to produce a wonder, your job is to come up with a design that meets enough of these criteria or manages to survive the testing.

Secondly, where in the world are you getting those "10 Compartments each" numbers? One of the big secondary reasons I want to look into shields is so that we can actually get an idea of how they fit into a ship, since AFAIK the size of guns and shields has never been mentioned once either from the QM or in the updates. So those numbers are just pure conjecture and they may just be 5 compartments each. We simply won't know until we see them.

Once again, my position is not that we can not make a courier with armor instead of shields. My position is that a courier with shields instead of armor will be just as effective as the other way around while also making us more money, which is the important part. As such I want to push for getting a shield on the craft, especially as we are like to have all the part for a fallback plan of gun+armor in case the dice screw us on acquisition, or it turns out that we can't get the shields to fit.

Our job here is not to make our super-special dream design that we got attached after it popped into our head, and anyone who says it's bad just doesn't understand. Our job here is to design a ship that makes us money, and that means taking into account public opinion on what should be on a ship. Our company does not have the time left to risk itself trying to sell a "standout, unique" design that could flop unless we have no other choice. We are losing Budget by the turn.
 
Also once again, those numbers on the right are not the minimum, they are just what the customer is asking for. We have been explicitly told what the customer asks for may not be realistic.

We can go over the compartment space requests, but as the QM mentioned just a few posts ago doing so would make the interior of our vessel cramped and undesirable which is why I don't want to do that. Besides, we know for certain that we could quite easily meet all of their requests, so it's hardly 'unreasonable' in this case and that point is moot.

Secondly, where in the world are you getting those "10 Compartments each" numbers? One of the big secondary reasons I want to look into shields is so that we can actually get an idea of how they fit into a ship, since AFAIK the size of guns and shields has never been mentioned once either from the QM or in the updates. So those numbers are just pure conjecture and they may just be 5 compartments each. We simply won't know until we see them.

Once again, my position is not that we can not make a courier with armor instead of shields. My position is that a courier with shields instead of armor will be just as effective as the other way around while also making us more money, which is the important part. As such I want to push for getting a shield on the craft, especially as we are like to have all the part for a fallback plan of gun+armor in case the dice screw us on acquisition, or it turns out that we can't get the shields to fit.

Our job here is not to make our super-special dream design that we got attached after it popped into our head, and anyone who says it's bad just doesn't understand. Our job here is to design a ship that makes us money, and that means taking into account public opinion on what should be on a ship. Our company does not have the time left to risk itself trying to sell a "standout, unique" design that could flop unless we have no other choice. We are losing Budget by the turn.

Okay first off, I am not sticking to my argument because 'it is a super-special dream design that I got attached to' and implying otherwise does the integrity of your argument and this discussion no favors in my eyes. Secondly, yes we are losing budget by the turn which is precisely why I don't want to push off our responsibilities to the next turn in the hope that we will have enough money and time to do everything you want. We have no idea what our next budget will be, we have no idea whether or not we will need to spend additional time/budget polishing our prototype, we have no idea how much space weapon systems or shields will take up.

I am on the side of working with what we can possibly gather this turn. The way I see it we could do Shields or Blasters this turn, not both, and I personally prefer Blasters because we have other options for defense in armor.

I consider 10 or more compartment space each to be a guess as far as what those things could cost because those are extensive additions—and you'll find at no point did I present those numbers as undisputed fact. My reasoning is because it is not something small like plating or a cargo bay, it requires wiring and structural support and the main systems for it will likely take up an entire room on their own. Similar to engines, which is why I based their numbers off that. Would it be great if they were lower than that? Yes, but I'm not in the business of betting on that.

Lastly, as to your statement about how our job is to not be 'standout'... that is quite literally the entire point of the prototype. The prototype model is specifically only for entering into a competition in which us and a bunch of other more developed companies are competing over a contract in which there is probably only going to be a single design chosen. If we do not stand out from the crowd, we will not win or otherwise put on an impressive showing, and the prototype was useless. This is not the final model we are selling to the public, this is the prototype build that has to compete with every other ship presented at the competition; and I really don't know how many times I have to continue saying that.
 
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As far as ability to sell or turn heads it could be the QM giving us a hint but it could also be true that our dad is too conservative with how he views the market. His judgement on what sells best may be a little suspect since he did put the company into the mess we're facing.
 
We can go over the compartment space requests, but as the QM mentioned just a few posts ago doing so would make the interior of our vessel cramped and undesirable which is why I don't want to do that. Besides, we know for certain that we could quite easily meet all of their requests, so it's hardly 'unreasonable' in this case and that point is moot.
Yeah, but you know what? Both your numbers and mine show that an Aurek with two engines and standard plating will have a third of it's compartments still free to fill. We aren't in danger of running out of internal space yet.

Okay first off, I am not sticking to my argument because 'it is a super-special dream design that I got attached to' and implying otherwise does the integrity of your argument and this discussion no favors in my eyes. Secondly, yes we are losing budget by the turn which is precisely why I don't want to push off our responsibilities to the next turn in the hope that we will have enough money and time to do everything you want. We have no idea what our next budget will be, we have no idea whether or not we will need to spend additional time/budget polishing our prototype, we have no idea how much space weapon systems or shields will take up.

I am on the side of working with what we can possibly gather this turn. The way I see it we could do Shields or Blasters this turn, not both, and I personally prefer Blasters because we have other options for defense in armor.

I consider 10 or more compartment space each to be a guess as far as what those things could cost because those are extensive additions—and you'll find at no point did I present those numbers as undisputed fact. My reasoning is because it is not something small like plating or a cargo bay, it requires wiring and structural support and the main systems for it will likely take up an entire room on their own. Similar to engines, which is why I based their numbers off that. Would it be great if they were lower than that? Yes, but I'm not in the business of betting on that.

Lastly, as to your statement about how our job is to not be 'standout'... that is quite literally the entire point of the prototype. The prototype model is specifically only for entering into a competition in which us and a bunch of other more developed companies are competing over a contract in which there is probably only going to be a single design chosen. If we do not stand out from the crowd, we will not win, and the prototype was useless. This is not the final model we are selling to the public, this is the prototype build that has to compete with every other ship presented at the competition; and I really don't know how many times I have to continue saying that.
Are the engines and hyperdrive really a good ballpark estimate though? They are a completely separate subsystem that have different requirements and outputs. In addition, we're looking at large, powerful engines and hyperdrives since we are trying to make a fast ship. I find it more likely that for a civilian courier not meant to fight any guns or shields are going to be smaller than the engines or hyperdrive.

But you know what? Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the dice fail and we can't get our hands on a shield before the deadline. Or maybe we do get one, but there's no way we can fit it in the ship without removing something important. But I've come to terms with that, and tried to build my plans so that we can go ahead with the shield-less design as a fallback if my plan fails for whatever reason.

And maybe I am wrong about you, I truly hope so. But I can't read your mind over the internet and know what you are thinking. To me most of your points on why we should use the armor comes off as pulling numbers from unrelated subsystems and waving them as a reason we can't fit shields on the courier without removing some other part of it, despite the fact that we have never even seen a shield to know how much space it will take, or doomsaying that we need to push the prototype through right this turn or we won't have the budget.

And speaking of the budget, I did take into account the decrease in my plan too. We've been steadily dropping 1 per turn, so with us having 8 this turn I planned around having only 7 next turn. Of course, once again if I am wrong we still have a fall back. Even if we drop down to 6 budget, or even 5, we will still have enough budget to work on our prototype and send it in with a Blaster and armor.

The idea that we may be delayed during the prototype sub-turn is a valid concern, I agree with you there. However, given that the QM had already removed one form of RNG-derived time delay by making it so that we don't have to pass a dice roll to succeed, unless @Jax is willing to inform us otherwise, I am inclined to believe that a RNG induced time delay isn't going to be a possibility for an issue that crops up.

Finally, it is possible to stand out in a bad way. If people see our design, and with the unique lack of shields their first thought is: "This ship is vulnerable, it's got no shields and a crap gun" that is a impression we will have working against us, particularly if the other contestants do have shields, and the kind of standout I am trying to avoid. We're already fairly certain that we can reach the customer's requirements for the important stats, so why not try to shore up the weaknesses of the courier, both real or perceived, to make it look even better versus the competition.

I get that we are under a time crunch and pressure to get this out which is why I don't want to rush this, and instead am pushing take the chance to look through all our options so we can do this right the first time, since we definitely won't have the chance to design a ship again if we get this wrong.
 

You would like to push prototyping to next turn so that our prototype can be made with more options and potentially better odds of impressing, I would like to start prototyping this turn to give us more options and budget in case more can be done next turn towards to same goal of giving us potentially better odds of impressing. Therefore it just seems we have a difference in opinion and will have to agree to disagree so as to spare this thread any more derailing, at least until/if the QM can answer some of the concerns around this decision making.
 
Though if @Jax is willing to give some examples of problems that might occur during prototyping it could clear things up.

Well, the Cockpit might be bad or the wiring makes problems and you might have to put more money in it to solve it. Maybe you even get off cheaper.

If we can get word of QM that pushing off off prototyping to next turn is fine and we won't pay for it by there being options for refining said prototype that we miss, than I'm fine with looking at more options.

Not sure what you mean by "is it fine". It is your decision as the players if you do it or not.

As far as ability to sell or turn heads it could be the QM giving us a hint but it could also be true that our dad is too conservative with how he views the market. His judgement on what sells best may be a little suspect since he did put the company into the mess we're facing.
Your dad has experience working for him. He knows things and also what customers want. But he never built a ship or sent one to a procurement. With his age also it is only normal that he has a leniency towards a more conservative approach.
 
[X] Plan Alex Mercer 2: Electric Boogaloo
-[X](Design)(1B)Upkeep
-[X](Research)(1B)Upkeep
-[X](Production)(1B) Upkeep
-[X][Research][2B] Basic Blaster
-[X][Production][1B] Ask for Ship Accessories
-[X][Production][2B] Begin the Prototype construction

Going with this for now, as Karma's percentiles make me pretty comfortable with the Blaster percentage out of 2 die.

Not sure what you mean by "is it fine". It is your decision as the players if you do it or not.

I was specifically referring to whether or not pushing the prototype start until next Turn has risks or not. If we can safely start and complete it next Turn—and not miss out on any opportunities of using that extra turn to iron out the kinks of our prototype—then I'm fine with spending this turn on research and normal procurement.
 
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It needs a shield to protect itself from space dust and the likes. Otherwise it's a deathtrap

There are examples of Star Wars ships that do not have shields, and seem to do just fine with their plating. TIE fighters for instance (with the exception of Vader's), have no shield generators to speak of.

So no, as far as I am aware it is not a necessity, though most certainly better than not having a shield in terms of hull longevity.

Edit Add-on: Might also be pertinent to mention that there are two categories of shields in Star Wars, ray shields and particle shields. The former protects from energy based weapons and the latter protects from concussive or physical weapons (along with asteroids/meteorites). Not all ships have both, and neither seem to actually specifically block micro debris. Star Wars space magic at work.
 
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[X] Plan eventually it'll be a lightbulb!
-[X](Design)(1B)Upkeep
-[X](Research)(1B)Upkeep
-[X](Research)(2B) Basic Blaster
-[X](Research)(1B) Basic Shielding
-[X](Production)(1B) Upkeep
-[X](Production)(2B) Begin the Prototype


Have to pick your risks, better something to submit than a DNE and I'm not sure what kind of delays could happen when making a prototype. Hopefully we're better at creating one than naval procurement :D.

Since this is our first time through the entire process there's an unfortunate number of unknowns. If we can survive a few turns we'll have a better idea for everything.

Edit: since my plan isn't gaining traction I'll go for the mystery box and prototype this turn plan. Maybe we'll get a mouse droid maybe we'll get an improved comms and sensor package.

[X] Plan Alex Mercer 2: Electric Boogaloo
 
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[X] Plan Marketability
-[ ][Design][1B] Upkeep
-[ ][Research][1B] Upkeep
-[ ][Research][2B] Basic Blaster
-[ ][Production][1B] Upkeep
-[ ][Production][3B] Ask for Shielding
 
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