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The Dawi in Arda (Hiatus)

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[x] Plan: Get that Clanhall done please!

[x] Yes -Thane Nirvid's Hammerers
[x] Yes - Elder Voddor's Expedition
[x] Yes -Drekfut Ankor - Once the Runelord has finished the crown. Invite the Noldor to witness it

[x] your Reckoning - shoes
-[x] a month in each others shoes before having a drinking competition where no grudges can be made but they can freely talk about there past month
--[x] if that dont work remind them they made trouble at your wife's feast and you have a very shiny axe

Now, I'd like to calm the enthusiasm of everyone with a few lore-wise questions.

The way our Dawi have become all chum-like with the Elves of Rivendell is a bit of a puzzle to me. Sure, the Great Grudge has been avenged long ago, but many others still remain. What stands before us looks like Elgi, but talks and behaves differently. They speek a different language, know nothing about the War of Vengeance and seem friendly. Sure, an open-minded Lord is not impossible and Rangers are such by default, but the others? Not so. Why? Because of this. They see Elgi, no matter what they call themselves. Many Wutelgi never heared of the War of Vengeance as well, speak differently than the High Elves and act differently. It's entirely possible, that this is yet another offshoot of the regular Elgi our Dawi are familiar with and should be treated as such. Dawi are ultraconservative and telling them, that the Elgi before them are not accountable for the transgressions of other Elgi is heresy and should be met with a great outcry. There is a reason, why the Dawi pursue even the most obscure and forgotten Grudges generations after the original perpetrators are long dead. It's one of their most characteristic features and their greatest weakness. Nothing has happened so far, that would convince the Dawi of the Hold, that these are not the Elgi they know and hate so much. To throw out their most powerful and progress-halting flaw out the window is a sad sight to see.

Another matter. We have learned Sindarin and can communicate. What struck me the most was a total lack of the most basic questions, that have been plaguing us since the very beginning. Where are we? Are these the World's Edge Mountains? What year is it? What has happened to Morrslieb? You're from the South-East? Does this mean we are somewhere in Naggarond? Maybe you are the Elgi'drazh in sheep's clothing? There has been no indication, that we are on a different planet entirely and the only giveaway so far has been the lack of the green moon for years. The stars are no clear indication, since on the other side of the world they look differently as well. The very name Kazad Dum also says, that we are somewhere on our old planet.

Finally, the logic behind the Noldor not being Elgi. If we come to the conlusion, that by some miracle this is true, then it also means that the Skinshifters, Grobi, Urki and Dumi are not the Skinshifters, Grobi, Urki and Dumi of our world. Therefore, the entire Book of Grudges is worthless and we start with a clean slate with everyone. For the Dawi this sounds so absurd, that most would laugh at such a notion. Have we not just exterminated a whole Karak worth of them? Sure, we did it to strike out the recent Grudges, but it also means that the Great Grudge is not applicable in this case.

Peace. ✌️
 
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agree with @Sertorius here.
Seconly, question for plan-makers and voters:
why are we not building a ironbeard station in the trading post?
I mean, I get the appeal of building more fortification, of building more walls, etc. But, we have just been explicitly warned twice that there are Dangers in the Deep. First, by the Elder that the under ground river is a danger, and second by the Elgi lord (bah, an elgi telling dawi what to do in the deep dark places of the world, typical elgi arrogance to tell dawii what to do in our natural environment).
 
[x] Plan: Get that Clanhall done please!

[x] Yes -Thane Nirvid's Hammerers
[x] Yes - Elder Voddor's Expedition
[x] Yes -Drekfut Ankor - Once the Runelord has finished the crown. Invite the Noldor to witness it

[x] your Reckoning - shoes
-[x] a month in each others shoes before having a drinking competition where no grudges can be made but they can freely talk about there past month
--[x] if that dont work remind them they made trouble at your wife's feast and you have a very shiny axe
 
We have gotten so buddy with the Noldor mainly because of the omake.
The biggest reason why the ironbeards stations has not been build yet because the miners have got the hands full.
First with coal then to close the tunnels then with coal again and now with silver.
Excluding silver all of those option were quite needed.
 
Sertorius said:
[x] Plan: Get that Clanhall done please!

[x] Yes -Thane Nirvid's Hammerers
[x] Yes - Elder Voddor's Expedition
[x] Yes -Drekfut Ankor - Once the Runelord has finished the crown. Invite the Noldor to witness it

[x] your Reckoning - shoes
-[x] a month in each others shoes before having a drinking competition where no grudges can be made but they can freely talk about there past month
--[x] if that dont work remind them they made trouble at your wife's feast and you have a very shiny axe

Now, I'd like to calm the enthusiasm of everyone with a few lore-wise questions.

The way our Dawi have become all chum-like with the Elves of Rivendell is a bit of a puzzle to me. Sure, the Great Grudge has been avenged long ago, but many others still remain. What stands before us looks like Elgi, but talks and behaves differently. They speek a different language, know nothing about the War of Vengeance and seem friendly. Sure, an open-minded Lord is not impossible and Rangers are such by default, but the others? Not so. Why? Because of this. They see Elgi, no matter what they call themselves. Many Wutelgi never heared of the War of Vengeance as well, speak differently than the High Elves and act differently. It's entirely possible, that this is yet another offshoot of the regular Elgi our Dawi are familiar with and should be treated as such. Dawi are ultraconservative and telling them, that the Elgi before them are not accountable for the transgressions of other Elgi is heresy and should be met with a great outcry. There is a reason, why the Dawi pursue even the most obscure and forgotten Grudges generations after the original perpetrators are long dead. It's one of their most characteristic features and their greatest weakness. Nothing has happened so far, that would convince the Dawi of the Hold, that these are not the Elgi they know and hate so much. To throw out their most powerful and progress-halting flaw out the window is a sad sight to see.

Another matter. We have learned Sindarin and can communicate. What struck me the most was a total lack of the most basic questions, that have been plaguing us since the very beginning. Where are we? Are these the World's Edge Mountains? What year is it? What has happened to Morrslieb? You're from the South-East? Does this mean we are somewhere in Naggarond? Maybe you are the Elgi'drazh in sheep's clothing? There has been no indication, that we are on a different planet entirely and the only giveaway so far has been the lack of the green moon for years. The stars are no clear indication, since on the other side of the world they look differently as well. The very name Kazad Dum also says, that we are somewhere on our old planet.

Finally, the logic behind the Noldor not being Elgi. If we come to the conlusion, that by some miracle this is true, then it also means that the Skinshifters, Grobi, Urki and Dumi are not the Skinshifters, Grobi, Urki and Dumi of our world. Therefore, the entire Book of Grudges is worthless and we start with a clean slate with everyone. For the Dawi this sounds so absurd, that most would laugh at such a notion. Have we not just exterminated a whole Karak worth of them? Sure, we did it to strike out the recent Grudges, but it also means that the Great Grudge is not applicable in this case.

Peace. ✌️
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The Wutelgi absolutely know the War of Vengeance it was the thing that founded their realm. All branches of the Elgi would know and recognise Eltharin even if they have some dialect differences and would know the War of Vengeance with the three types of Elgi only dividing in they same time period. While descendants of someone who is grudged also carry that grudge it's become quite clear that the Noldor are not descended from the Elgi.

They aren't the ordinary Elgi because they don't recognise Elgi history or language despite having members many millennia old. They aren't Wutelgi because they live in a city In a gorge away from the woods. And they aren't Drazh-Elgi for a few reasons.

The Drazh-Elgi firmly believe they will one day rule Ulthuan so claiming that they'll never return and never have returned to their homeland is a mark against them being Drazh-Elgi. Also Imladris is nothing like a Drazh-Elgi city and none of the nearby lands are like the frozen wastes of Naggaroth. Then their culture and lack of Eltharin are distinct from Drazh Elgi as well.

This rules out the known Elgi groups. Perhaps they're a new branch you've not met. But the Lorekeepers have gone through the broad strokes of Noldor history along with you and Glorfindel and there doesn't seem to be a descendence from the Elgi there.

If the impossible has been ruled out, and these Noldor are not a branch of Elgi, then the implausible that remains is true. These Noldor are a native people of this land or have dwelt here since long before the War of Vengeance and haven't been part of the Elgi for many ages. Either they aren't Elgi or if they are then they have no party to any existing grudges or reckonings.

This means that the only honourable course is to allow these Noldor to prove themselves independently of Elgi history. They are certainly able to make new grudges about the Noldor but even the Elgi were able to prove themselves true friends for thousands of years.

Umgi have regularly served the Dumi or raided and killed Dawi for their own game throughout their history but that doesn't mean anyone who seems to be like an Umgi must pay for all grudges made against any Umgi. A Reckoning must be directed towards the rightfully grudged.

There have been several significant clues over the past decade and a half that something is very different about this place and that the Karaz Ankor is further away than anyone could have imagined. Even before speaking with the Noldor the Elders had concluded that the Lord of Change had sent you to either another world or through a great distance of time.

Your conversations with Glorfindel have focused mostly on the Noldor in order to allow you to accurately gauge whether they are Elgi or some local people similar but separate.

The skinshifters were already long recognised as a new people group. Bear skin-shifters are a new thing and the Rangers have found nothing familiar in the homes on your side of the great river.

Dumi are being treated the same as in the Karaz Ankor because they are innately dark creatures and if the Lord of Change could send you between worlds then it stands to reason that the Dumi are capable of going between and therefore being found in both places.

The Hargrobi attacked you. They've proven to be similar enough to real Hargrobi that they can be tentatively treated as falling in the scope of the Great Grudge of the Time of Woes. While the Dawi do distinguish between different Elgi and Umgi groups in terms of grudges they don't do that for Thaggoraki Clans or Grobi and Urki Tribes. In part because a Great Grudge is a against a species rather than a particular people. So even if these specific Grobi haven't done anything to the Karaz Ankor they are eligible targets until proven otherwise.

Edit: And also yes the omake did give you a boost to smoothing over the initial diplomatic situation between you and the Noldor.
 
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I mean if we really want to hold the Noldor accountable for the things that our Elgi did, we could.

And we kinda did ask them a bunch of the basic questions, in a round about way. Like asking them for their histories. As noted by our loremasters, there doesn't seem to be anything suggestive of these Elgi coming from Mallus/the Fated Place. Glorfindel goes on to even tell them a bit of the Noldor creation myth, which is wildly different from the creation myth all elgi of the old world ascribe to.

So, yeah, we went pretty blank slate on our current relations with one of the 'good' factions.

And, honestly, of all the Elf factions, those of Rivendell are the least arrogant. Their pride tends towards a quiet sort. Plus they're definitely the friendliest and most 'mannish.' Probably comes from the fact that Elrond is Half-Elven, and his brother Elros became the first King of Numenor. IIRC Rivendell also has the best relations with the Dwarves, given their own 'We just kinda mind our own business and aren't gigantic assholes to everyone we come across like Mirkwood or Lothlorien's default states.'

And Glorfindel is -the- diplomat for the Gods, not just Elrond. That's pretty weighty. He definitely gets visions and stuff that'd help him say 'These aren't regular dwarves, we should put our best foot forward' to Elrond, who'd agree, because Elrond is pretty based.

If we'd come across the Elves of Mirkwood first, well. Thranduil is giant asshole, and the line of Durin being assholes to him too, wouldn't have helped. With how far west we are to the seat of his power and such, we'd have no problems over tree cutting though.

If Galadriel used her Mirror or her own gifts she could've opened good relations with us, but we'd probably really pissed off her people when we started cutting down trees and they attacked us, causing a grudge, if we were that far south. Like for Lothlorien and us to have good relations, they'd have to come to us wicked early, and tell us it isn't Mallus.

Further if we wanted good relations with the Noldor, we'd need to not blame them for things beyond their control. Which is why the roll had a DC of 60, which is one of the highest we've had. Of course, the sneaking suspicion that we aren't on Mallus anymore is probably why it isn't a DC of 70-95.

I don't want to say grobi will be grobi after all of this, but we definitely soured any possible relationship with the native grobi when we thought they were hargrobi, and absolutely tanked it when we got attacked and then we wiped out Goblin Town. The grudge against the Grobi though is against all of them. All of them.

The unquiet dead are something that no Dawi on anyworld would tolerate, so no good relations with the Witch-King, or Sauron if we ever found out. Because we have a great grudge against those kinds of things. We could maybe have good relations with some of the hill tribes to the south who hate Gondor and eventual-Rohan. They side with the Enemy a lot, but don't have dark magic afaik. We could keep them from going to the dark side.

Edit: I honestly expect the Longbeard Clan to be complete assholes. The DC for diplo for them is going to be high, because of them. They're the High King's Clan as it were. And we come out of fucking no where and upstage them in just about every way possible? Yeah... I expect that's where we're gonna have the most trouble, diplomatically.
 
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ja.b.n. said:
why are we not building a ironbeard station in the trading post?
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I'm not building anything there right now, while an ironbeard station makes sense before we start building other stuff right now all our dice are tied up. My priority is always getting stuff we've started finished and we need that clanhall done this turn, to avoid deteriorating approval from the stonebeards and to house the new engineers. After that there's the vault. You could argue we can put off the fortifications but you can always argue that and the problem with the fortifications is they are impossible to rush due to how excavation dice work and we need all of them up or else enemies can attack the weakest point so if we leave them until we need them we wont have them when we need them.

So I had an idea for a neat gift, it could be runed but I think it work just as well unruned. An amulet made from Mallus steel and Arda silver, depicts a dwarf (in steel) and Noldor (in silver) exchanging a friendly greeting.

@Warkeymon how would the runelord feel about being asked to make an unruned item? Would he view it as below him? As a talismanic runelord I figure he is the most skilled at making jewelery in the hold.
 
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Jreengus said:
@Warkeymon how would the runelord feel about being asked to make an unruned item? Would he view it as below him? As a talismanic runelord I figure he is the most skilled at making jewelery in the hold.
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He might grumble a bit about wasting his time but he'll still recognise he's the single greatest smith in the hold and do it anyway.
 
In that case I really want to go with my amulet idea. Runes of power are tempting but I think somethign unruned with nice symbolism behind it fits better both with the dwarves natural dislike of handing out runes willy nilly and LotR's themes of great power being less important than simple acts of goodness.
 
Jreengus said:
I'm not building anything there right now, while an ironbeard station makes sense before we start building other stuff right now all our dice are tied up.
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Ironbeard station in the Urbaz should be one of the first things that we sneak in, now that we've mostly secured it.

I honestly wanted one before we sent our expedition into the rivers, so we could send Ironbeards with them, but needs must as the devil drives.
 
Warkeymon said:
The Wutelgi absolutely know the War of Vengeance it was the thing that founded their realm. All branches of the Elgi would know and recognise Eltharin even if they have some dialect differences and would know the War of Vengeance with the three types of Elgi only dividing in they same time period. While descendants of someone who is grudged also carry that grudge it's become quite clear that the Noldor are not descended from the Elgi.
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The Wutelgi as a whole and their rulling class of course, but not all low-born individuals. I am fairly certain, that a good chunk of them that were born long after the fact and never seen a Dawi or Elgi in their life have no knowledge or memory of the war. Since most Dawi meet this kind of Elves, they can make a wrong assumption, provided they even talk at all.

Warkeymon said:
They aren't the ordinary Elgi because they don't recognise Elgi history or language despite having members many millennia old. They aren't Wutelgi because they live in a city In a gorge away from the woods. And they aren't Drazh-Elgi for a few reasons.

The Drazh-Elgi firmly believe they will one day rule Ulthuan so claiming that they'll never return and never have returned to their homeland is a mark against them being Drazh-Elgi. Also Imladris is nothing like a Drazh-Elgi city and none of the nearby lands are like the frozen wastes of Naggaroth. Then their culture and lack of Eltharin are distinct from Drazh Elgi as well.

This rules out the known Elgi groups. Perhaps they're a new branch you've not met. But the Lorekeepers have gone through the broad strokes of Noldor history along with you and Glorfindel and there doesn't seem to be a descendence from the Elgi there.

If the impossible has been ruled out, and these Noldor are not a branch of Elgi, then the implausible that remains is true. These Noldor are a native people of this land or have dwelt here since long before the War of Vengeance and haven't been part of the Elgi for many ages. Either they aren't Elgi or if they are then they have no party to any existing grudges or reckonings.

This means that the only honourable course is to allow these Noldor to prove themselves independently of Elgi history. They are certainly able to make new grudges about the Noldor but even the Elgi were able to prove themselves true friends for thousands of years.
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This is still the word of an Elgi.

A cornered mouse may say whatever the cat wishes to hear when death closes near. I'm not saying, that Glorfindel can't use his gifts of persuasion to sway the Dawi to his way of thinking, yet I'm fairly certain the Loremasters would take whatever he said with a grain of salt. Personally, I think they should do so with a fistful of the stuff. There is no outright hostility between the races, so Elgi won't be shot on sight, yet distrust remains. I'm not saying the Noldor can't prove their good intentions, yet it would take around 100-200 years of regular contacts for the Dawi to warm up to them. Until that time they should be treated with suspicion and a loaded crossbow at hand as any other Elgi. Plus, we are still talking about the rulling class only. Regular Hold Dawi may have a very different opinion regarding the Noldor, especially those, that have a family Grudge.

Warkeymon said:
Umgi have regularly served the Dumi or raided and killed Dawi for their own game throughout their history but that doesn't mean anyone who seems to be like an Umgi must pay for all grudges made against any Umgi. A Reckoning must be directed towards the rightfully grudged.
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Because this is balanced out by being allied to Sigmar and his Empire. Otherwise, I'm certain the Karaz Ankor would have long since purged the lowlands with cannon fire.
Warkeymon said:
There have been several significant clues over the past decade and a half that something is very different about this place and that the Karaz Ankor is further away than anyone could have imagined. Even before speaking with the Noldor the Elders had concluded that the Lord of Change had sent you to either another world or through a great distance of time.

Your conversations with Glorfindel have focused mostly on the Noldor in order to allow you to accurately gauge whether they are Elgi or some local people similar but separate.
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Then we still don't know anything. We can be in Lustria or the North Pole for all they care. It's paramount to change that so before gauging anything, they should start with the basics and then move on from there, otherwise they are doing it wrong. Wouldn't you ask where you are first in such a situation?
Warkeymon said:
The skinshifters were already long recognised as a new people group. Bear skin-shifters are a new thing and the Rangers have found nothing familiar in the homes on your side of the great river.
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Fair enough, yet still suspicious. Anyone capable of doing that has to have something to do with the Dumi, since this is a trademark ability of theirs.
Warkeymon said:
Dumi are being treated the same as in the Karaz Ankor because they are innately dark creatures and if the Lord of Change could send you between worlds then it stands to reason that the Dumi are capable of going between and therefore being found in both places.

The Hargrobi attacked you. They've proven to be similar enough to real Hargrobi that they can be tentatively treated as falling in the scope of the Great Grudge of the Time of Woes. While the Dawi do distinguish between different Elgi and Umgi groups in terms of grudges they don't do that for Thaggoraki Clans or Grobi and Urki Tribes. In part because a Great Grudge is a against a species rather than a particular people. So even if these specific Grobi haven't done anything to the Karaz Ankor they are eligible targets until proven otherwise.
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Good enough, yet if we are going to treat them as falling within the scope of their respective Grudges, the same should be said with the Elgi. At least until some time passes.
 
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Sertorius said:
If we come to the conlusion, that by some miracle this is true, then it also means that the Skinshifters, Grobi, Urki and Dumi are not the Skinshifters, Grobi, Urki and Dumi of our world.
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Choosing to avoid "an elf is an elf" lets us recognize the local dwarfs as "similar, but different" too.

Imagine dawi without a book of grudges. Shocking!

Warkeymon said:
They are certainly able to make new grudges about the Noldor but even the Elgi were able to prove themselves true friends for thousands of years.
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And aren't we e all happy this is the third age and not the first age.
All the foolish elves got the Darwin award already.
 
Jreengus said:
I'm not building anything there right now, while an ironbeard station makes sense before we start building other stuff right now all our dice are tied up. My priority is always getting stuff we've started finished and we need that clanhall done this turn, to avoid deteriorating approval from the stonebeards and to house the new engineers. After that there's the vault. You could argue we can put off the fortifications but you can always argue that and the problem with the fortifications is they are impossible to rush due to how excavation dice work and we need all of them up or else enemies can attack the weakest point so if we leave them until we need them we wont have them when we need them.

So I had an idea for a neat gift, it could be runed but I think it work just as well unruned. An amulet made from Mallus steel and Arda silver, depicts a dwarf (in steel) and Noldor (in silver) exchanging a friendly greeting.

@Warkeymon how would the runelord feel about being asked to make an unruned item? Would he view it as below him? As a talismanic runelord I figure he is the most skilled at making jewelery in the hold.
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I agree that we should finish the clanhall, house the engineers, and finish the vault. but if I understand correctly you want to start building the extra walls, towers, etc, on the west side of our hold, before we build the ironbeard station in the trading post?

I'd say that the ironbeard station, located next to a gaping underground hole in our trading post where there currently are no underground defences, is a higher priority that building excellent surface defences on the west surface where we already have a single decent wall and the extensive hold fortifications of the north peak.
 
Sertorius said:
I'm not saying the Noldor can't prove their good intentions, yet it would take around 100-200 years of regular contacts for the Dawi to warm up to them.
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I feel you, fam. From both sides of the lore, too. I've been for a more open minded approach, though. For game reasons.

I don't want to spend the next 150 turns slowly thawing our relations with Rivendell.

Hows about we meet in the middle at approximately Watsonian 'These dawi are really off kilter because they're starting to think they might not be on Malus, and the Noldor are extra not assholes for Elves and have handled the diploamcy on their end really well (which they have)' and the Doyalist 'I don't want to take 150 turns to officially be on the 'good guy' faction list and have trade options with significant interactions with LotR canon characters.'
 
ja.b.n. said:
I agree that we should finish the clanhall, house the engineers, and finish the vault. but if I understand correctly you want to start building the extra walls, towers, etc, on the west side of our hold, before we build the ironbeard station in the trading post?

I'd say that the ironbeard station, located next to a gaping underground hole in our trading post where there currently are no underground defences, is a higher priority that building excellent surface defences on the west surface where we already have a single decent wall and the extensive hold fortifications of the north peak.
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I would phrase it as I think extra defenses around a hold full of civilians are more important than extra defenses for an outpost full of soldiers. It isn't a trading post yet and I have explicitly said I support the ironbeard station before we turn it into one.
 
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IronFist said:
All the foolish elves got the Darwin award already.
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wouldn't say that, remember how Legolas's dad treated Thorin's company? Now, i'll be the first to say that Thorin was kinda being an arse to him (I believe in the book, he refused to say anything to an elven king that his former realm had friendly relations with), but still he was willing to go to war with an army of the dwarves of the Iron Hills over mere treasure.

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Not that far of from the foolishness of the Oath of that Noldor (?) king that swore a Mighty Oath to fight anyone and anything in the way of him regaining his silmilarion jewels.
Now, declaring a Grudge and swearing an Oath to regain your treasure is proper Dawii behaviour, I'll grant him that, but attacking and murdering his Kin because they did not want to give away their property to help him? That's Dawii-Zhar behaviour my friend, no honourable being, dawi umgi elgi or otherwise, should ever slay his kin.
 
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IronFist said:
I think that will happen eventually.
How do you fight a grudge against a species that doesn't exist?
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I think that's even worse. A grudge against a species not no longer exists / can never be reached? Thats a grudge that can never be avenged, and will thus forever be a weight on the shoulders of the Dawi, reminding them of the wrongs done to their Ancestors, and the Shame of their inability to Avenge them. A Weight on their honor that can never be removed, that will grow heavier with each succesive generation failing to resolve it. Each King will do their utmost to find a way to resolve the Grudge, and fail, and that failure will compound the blemish on their Honour, the Honour of their Clan, their Hold, and the entire Karaz Ankor.

an unsolved Grudge is a slight, a Grudge that can not be solved is a tragedy.
 
IronFist said:
I think that will happen eventually.
How do you fight a grudge against a species that doesn't exist?
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This is the Dawi we are talking about. New Grudges will pop up and fast. Like shortchanging during trade agreements. Or calling someone's mother an Elgi.

Skitzyfrenic said:
I feel you, fam. From both sides of the lore, too. I've been for a more open minded approach, though. For game reasons.

I don't want to spend the next 150 turns slowly thawing our relations with Rivendell.

Hows about we meet in the middle at approximately Watsonian 'These dawi are really off kilter because they're starting to think they might not be on Malus, and the Noldor are extra not assholes for Elves and have handled the diploamcy on their end really well (which they have)' and the Doyalist 'I don't want to take 150 turns to officially be on the 'good guy' faction list and have trade options with significant interactions with LotR canon characters.'
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Ok, let's say... 15 turns of suspicion and then we can start drinking together?
ja.b.n. said:
I think that's even worse. A grudge against a species not no longer exists / can never be reached? Thats a grudge that can never be avenged, and will thus forever be a weight on the shoulders of the Dawi, reminding them of the wrongs done to their Ancestors, and the Shame of their inability to Avenge them. A Weight on their honor that can never be removed, that will grow heavier with each succesive generation failing to resolve it. Each King will do their utmost to find a way to resolve the Grudge, and fail, and that failure will compound the blemish on their Honour, the Honour of their Clan, their Hold, and the entire Karaz Ankor.

an unsolved Grudge is a slight, a Grudge that can not be solved is a tragedy.
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Yet another reason for the Elgi to remain Elgi.
 
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Jreengus said:
In that case I really want to go with my amulet idea. Runes of power are tempting but I think somethign unruned with nice symbolism behind it fits better both with the dwarves natural dislike of handing out runes willy nilly and LotR's themes of great power being less important than simple acts of goodness.
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Why can't he slap a rune on the back? Throw some balance at it :D
 
I really do not envy warkey position in this, if you want to make a quest like this how much time do you give between turns?
It migth seems a dumb question but a LOT of wat can be done storywise would be determined by that.
And then you got to consider how often as a gm you plan to update?
For example why making a runesmith takes less than fifty years?
Answer because in quest time it already takes a lot of updates and the story would suffer enormously if it took even close to the average time in whf lore.
So you either give a shorter number OR massivily increase the time that passes between turns (it would lead to other problems anyway).
Elf are kinda the same truble, 150 years wouldn't really be a problem if a turn lasted 50 years or we were reading a book, would definetly be belivable.
But a turn last a year and warkey somehow manages an update EVRY DAY, so would really be enjoiable to watch for 150 turns the dawi kinda trusting and kinda not trusting?
Whilst we can do nothing about it but we all know that befriending RIvendell is a good idea?
How likely it is for this quest to last 150 turns?
Because in my experience with this site even if warkey proved to be the fastest upadter it is rare for a quest to last that long.
And then we start getting into the how much should warkey reward for omake, another can of worms I am glad to not have to deal with.
As far as I am concerned our runelord will have his hand full until he keels over, Ulse has basicaly managed to ensure that, so no runes for outsiders, we aint'got the luxury.
 
In term of Runes to gift, which I know some are disinclined to do.

What about the Rune of Brotherhood?
This Rune allows a Dwarf to quickly assimilate skills possessed by his closest comrades.

Not only would it help the Dwarfs and Elves when teaching each other new skills, but it will also help elves when working together.
 
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