There is no emotion... (A Jedi Order Quest)

'Vacillating idiots' is no less inflammatory than 'gutless cowards', as far as I'm aware. Is it so difficult to not get nasty about people who disagree with you?
[Glances at amendment]
Le sigh.

Aside what Englanderish already said, my main issue with Plan Sustainable Commitment is it's not doing much to give the actual rebels a stronger foothold, which IMO is the most important metric. It's only offering direct support by trying to get the (explicitly war-weary) Republic worlds to send support, and while it's playing whack-a-mole with the Hutt infrastructure and agents in Republic space that probably doesn't affect the Hutts' available force to hit the rebels with. Anything in Republic space has to be a disposable asset by definition given the Republic's prevailing attitude in regards to the Hutts; by limiting operations wholly or primarily to Republic space, we're then only hitting auxiliary resources, things that they've bought to supplement their existing capacity.

Whereas if we work in Hutt space, we can hit their supply lines in the middle and at the source. They're a business, not an ideologically-united organization (at least not below the topmost echelon) - if we disrupt their organizational chain closer to the source, the lower elements (mercs, etc) aren't going to be motivated to keep fighting. If we can keep the mercs and such from being paid for example, they're just going to scatter and find other work, which means that they cease to be a problem for the time being.
This is kinda where I'm at too, I think. Treating the symptoms is helpful do a degree, but ideally we should be making decisive actions for the core causes as well. Which means at least some kind of local presence who have a finger to the pulse and can help react accordingly.

Of course, the flipside is we do also need to treat the Republic symptoms.

@Voikirium how long we got? Debating if it's worth putting together another compromise plan.
 
[Glances at amendment]
Le sigh.


This is kinda where I'm at too, I think. Treating the symptoms is helpful do a degree, but ideally we should be making decisive actions for the core causes as well. Which means at least some kind of local presence who have a finger to the pulse and can help react accordingly.

Of course, the flipside is we do also need to treat the Republic symptoms.

@Voikirium how long we got? Debating if it's worth putting together another compromise plan.
Probably at least until Tuesday.
Let's go with one of the plans that doesn't make the Jedi look like vacillating idiots, shall we?
I would appreciate if you could stop trying to light my thread on fire, please.
 
Debating if it's worth putting together another compromise plan.
You mean an actual compromise plan put together by someone willing to put in effort to balance numbers rather than a hack willing to steal someone else's plan, scribble on it, then file the serial numbers off? Sounds like a good idea.

I admit I'm still skeptical of the characterisation (I've been saying that word too much recently) of Republic-territory actions as 'treating symptoms', but I can see the idea behind it, disposable assets and all. That phrasing of it definitely let me wrap my head around it a bit more, even if I still kinda disagree. I kind of like the ideas behind my own hackjob plan though. Definitely the Republic-side diplomacy course is worth taking for those ancillary benefits, and that's probably the Republic-side action that goes hardest on propping up the Rebels. The hopeful ancillary benefits of raising enthusiasm are my main focus, but it does seem like the one that's most aimed at supporting the rebels rather than striking at the Hutts.

I guess the main thing I'd caution against in any plan is spreading our forces too thin. I'd call more than five actions too many, assuming none of them are Light, and any margin lower than ~20% over the minimum requirement too little to have a good chance of succeeding. It's a minimum, right? "AT LEAST" is in all caps and everything. It's pretty safe to expect that we'll need a little padding on the top, especially if we're challenging the Hutts on their own turf. If it's a Hutt-territory action I'd err on the side of ~30% as a margin before I'd feel comfortable with it. That's part of the reason I am so strongly against A Wider Net and Passion Yet Serenity. They combine a tiny safety net (especially in Passion Yet Serenity's case) with high-risk options.

There's definitely some flex room for a middle ground, since it could easily be argued that Sustainable Commitment's 50%+ safety nets are needlessly large for Republic-territory actions. My own Eyes Forward could definitely be improved in execution by spreading some of the load out, perhaps shuffled off into the Hutt-territory Wisdom action. I just have too much disdain for even basic maths.

...Although...

...Nah, no point, whatever Englanderish is cooking up will probably be better-executed. I mean, I haven't been on SV in something like two years, I'm pretty rusty as a quester.
 
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Can we not just, like, all relax, maybe take an hour or two to relax and stop going straight for each others' throats?
 
Just started reading, thought I'd make a note of this before I forget.
There's a problem with the thread marks at the start, when clicking the arrows to go from the first post to the second it skips straight to the third, and likewise the third post only goes back to the first, skipping the second. Essentially you go from selecting the MC to having the results from the first enclave and it's a bit confusing.
The thread mark can still be selected from the top menu and the navigation FROM it works well, but it seems like the 'in-post' thread mark tools refuse to navigate TO it.
 
Oh god. That came off nothing like how I intended. I was taking the piss out of myself, since the lazy option was the one I'd taken. @The Englanderish My apologies, that came out the wrong way.
 
So what is detachment anyway? I can't seem to find an explanation for it.
It's a measurement of how disconnected and aloof the relationship between the Jedi and the Republic beraucracy is compared to canon. 0 detachment is Phantom Menace's/Clone War's Jedi Order with loads of political and beraucratic pull and just as much political and beraucratic restrictions, while maximum detachment (I don't know if it's percent based or integer based) would be going full Green Jedi or enacting the Jedi Lord system from before the Ruusan Reformation.

Extreme example: Buffer underflowing into negative detachment values below 0% would be a reenactment of the Pius Dea Era, buffer overflowing past 100% detachment would have the Jedi leave on new Outbound Flights if they aren't busy recluding themselves to restore ancient Force reliquaries like Tython and Jedha.
 
So far the one mechanical impact of Detachment that I can recall in the quest is that refusing to go to war with the Republic hurts us less at higher Detachment.
 
Okay, this is what I've got after plugging away at the numbers for an hour.

I've based this off @Strunkriidiisk's hypothetical patrol setup:
Right, here's a potential distribution for patrols. Relatively conservative, but it still frees up most of our knights and Council masters for war operations.



The Core (V4 req): 1 Sentinel, 1 Guardian, 1 Consular, 1 Master Watchman, 4 Padawans (C15, W23, S19, D23, V15, H24) (-Mira -1 Sentinel -1 Consular -2 Padawans +1 Master Watchman)
The Inner Rim (V10 req): Councilor Mira, 3 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 2 Consulars, 8 Padawans (C39, W52, S42, D55, V33, H57) (-Bao-Dur -1 Sentinel -1 Consular +Mira +1 Guardian)
The Mid-Rim (V6 req): Councilor Juhani, 2 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 7 Padawans (C38, W36, S30, D40, V19, H47) (-Atris -1 Sentinel -1 Guardian -1 Padawan + Juhani)
The Outer Rim (V1 req): 3 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, 2 Consulars, 6 Padawans (C19, W34, S27, D35, V24, H34) (-Atton Rand, -2 Sentinels -1 Guardian -1 Consular)
The Colonies (V1 req): 4 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, 1 Consular, 6 Padawans (C14, W24, S24, D24, V18, H28) (-Visas Marr -2 Sentinels -1 Guardian)
The Expansion Region (V6 req): Councilor Bastila Shan, 4 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 2 Consulars, 6 Padawans (C34, W50, S39, D53, V33, H57) (-2 Sentinels -2 Guardians)

This leaves a total of 9 Padawans, 21 Sentinels, 20 Guardians, 10 Consulars available, as well as Bao-Dur, Atton, Visas, Brianna, and Mical available. I ended up leaving Council members and our only Master Watchman in the "hot zone" patrol routes and the Core, though if needed the Watchman can probably be pried loose. This does tie up a lot of our Padawans, but to be honest I suspect we're better off that way and bringing more quality into war ops than quantity.

I'm also writing this under the presumption that we can revisit our strategy at some point once we have tangible metrics as to how it's going.

[X] Plan: Glorious Jewel In Action
-[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
--Heavy (You will hit very hardened targets, such as mercenary barracks (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
--- Councillor Brianna, 10 Jedi Guardians, 4 Jedi Sentinels, 2 Jedi Consulars; 67 Combat
-[X] Physically Aid Rebel Forces (Requires investment of Combat)
--Medium (You will position Jedi in Rebel Bases (AT LEAST 30 COMBAT)
--- Councillor Visas Marr, 5 Jedi guardians, 2 Jedi Sentinels, 2 Jedi Consulars; 36 Combat
-[X] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill)
--Heavy (You will help redesign the Rebel Fleet from its Hutt Origin (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
--- 1 Jedi Guardian, 10 Jedi Sentinels, 1 Jedi Consular, 9 Jedi Padawans; 52 Skill
-[X] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults (Requires Investment of Wisdom))
--Medium (You will try and recruit Force Sensitive Hutts, as well (AT LEAST 30 Wisdom))
--- Councillor Mical, 3 Jedi Guardians, 3 Jedi Sentinels, 3 Jedi Consulars; 37 Wisdom

I've deliberately left Bao-Dur, Atton, 2 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, and 2 Consulars unassigned since I'm not 100% finalised on the exact numbers, but also because it gives us some spare room to respond to crises.

The infrastructure in Republic territory is the main home territory thing that needs doing - when that's crippled it makes anything else we care to do much easier. I could sink some of the spare Jedi into it to bump it up to the 80 in other plans, but I'm not 100% sold that much of an excess is necessary when I'm already drowning the numbers even before I hit it with the tactical Brianna. It also accomplishes half of the heaviest of @TaliesinSkye's and @Fezzes's plans' resource assignments. Essentially part of my end of the compromise.

For physically aiding the rebels I am prepared to haggle down to light, but I do think it's best if we have more than token presence within the people we're trying to help. I'm already compromising by making it less of a priority than the internal Republic side of it, but I'm not willing to lose this part at all since it's what that speech I put so much work into was about. Yes, it has potential risk of death, and I'm well aware of the dark side danger, which is why I'm assigning Visas to this - she has unique experience in coping with Dark Side issues. But if we don't sink something into this then we just turn the Republic into an elite club where outside problems will never be given the due attention, and I do not think we should be married to the Republic so much in that way. The vote on that speech happened, and to not follow it up would just be... I wouldn't see the point of having made that speech and putting in the effort to win that vote in the first place. We need to solve the problem, and while shoving the problem out of the Republic helps a lot, it is not in itself a solution unless we literally only care about the Republic. To be Jedi is to risk self-sacrifice.

The tech support is something that is straight out of @Fezzes's plan and frankly I agree with it. I would like to commit Bao-Dur to it, but I'm dubious on our Grandmaster being so tied down on such a project... even if it is his specialty. I could maybe put Atton on it to boost the numbers, undecided yet though. It also accomplishes @TaliesinSkye's option of funnelling support to the rebels but in a more direct way that makes further investment into Hutt space through any means more worthwhile. Start evening the naval odds and things get much more favourable.

It also leads nicely into the final part - stoking the Force within the syncretic cults. I'm putting it in at medium since funnelling recruits from Hutt space will help swell our own ranks. It also captures the generation of tomorrow, who will ultimately decide where the future lies. Force orders are worth their weight in gold, as are Jedi recruits, and the symbology of taking on Hutt Jedi would do our cause a lot of goodwill. I'm compromising down form a physical installation, and maybe I could be pushed further, but at this level I hope it at least mitigates the concern for losing Jedi with potential new recruits.

I'm keeping the padawans off the front lines and invested in the design project since I very much agree that they shouldn't be seeing the nasty end of the action. The experience should also help hasten their knighthood. You might also notice that I've avoided going by exclusive blocks of Jedi types in my votes, and that's because having only guardians or only consulars or what not is liable in my mind to make our assigned groups inflexible, or present glaring weaknesses specific to their Jedi type.

I've sunk more time into this than I probably should have, since I don't think I've ever known a late vote to actually win. But I did, and I'd appreciate it if you'd all consider it. The current winning vote just... doesn't accomplish the statements made in the speech we voted for, and if anything runs contrary to it, which frustrates me considering I wrote that speech.

I've got it all spreadsheeted on my PC so if anyone has any suggestions or want to haggle specifics, hit me up.

Work with me here?

Edit:
[X] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v3
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Strunkriidiisk on Dec 19, 2021 at 6:33 PM, finished with 89 posts and 18 votes.
  • 21

    [X] Plan Sustainable Commitment
    -[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
    -[X] Heavy (You will hit very hardened targets, such as mercenary barracks (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
    -[X] 16 Jedi Guardians (80 Combat)
    -[X] Strike Hutt Illicit Operations and Operators (Requires investment of Skill)
    -[X] Heavy (Moguls, Kajidii, Overbosses (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
    -[X] Mira, 1 Watchman, 15 Jedi Sentinels, 17 Padawans) (71 Skill)
    -[X] Try and funnel support to the Rebels (Requires Investment of Diplomacy)
    -[X] Medium (The Mid-Rim, far, though not far enough, from the Hutts, though considerably wealthier than the nearby (AT LEAST 30 Diplomacy))
    -[X] Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 7 Consulars, 8 Padawans (48 Diplomacy)
    [X] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v3
    -[X] Physically Aid Rebel Forces - Heavy (Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat))
    -[X] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships - Heavy (Councilor Atton Rand, 12 Sentinels, 3 Guardians (46 Skill))
    -[X] Facilitate Hutt Defections - Heavy (Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 5 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (48 Diplomacy))
    -[X] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults - Heavy (Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 5 Consulars(49 Wisdom))
    [X] Plan: A Wider Net
    -[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. - Medium (You will hit somewhat hardened targets, like freighters) - 3 Sentinels, 6 Guardians (36 Combat)
    -[X] Try and funnel support to the Rebels - Medium (The Mid-Rim, far, though not far enough, from the Hutts, though considerably wealthier than the nearby) - 1 Sentinel, 4 Guardians, 2 Consulars, 3 Padawans (35 Diplomacy)
    -[X] Physically Aid Rebel Forces - Medium (You will position Jedi in Rebel Bases) - Brianna, 2 Sentinels, 5 Guardians (36 Combat)
    -[X] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships - Medium (You will help refit the Rebel Fleet with heavier weaponry) - Visas Marr, 9 Sentinels, 2 Padawans (35 Skill)
    -[X] Facilitate Hutt Defections - Heavy (You will attempt to convince higher ranking Hutts, such as Vogga who has business interests in selling his fuel, to defect to the Rebels) - Bao-Dur, Atton Rand, 4 Sentinels, 5 Guardians, 1 Consular, 2 Padawans (51 Diplomacy)
    -[X] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults - Heavy (You will establish a Praxeum proper on a Rebel held world) - Mical, 2 Sentinels, 7 Consulars, 2 Padawans (51 Wisdom)
    [X] Plan: Glorious Jewel In Action
    -[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
    -[X] Physically Aid Rebel Forces (Requires investment of Combat)
    -[X] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill)
    -[X] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults (Requires Investment of Wisdom))
    -[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
    -[X] Heavy (You will hit very hardened targets, such as mercenary barracks (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
    -[X] 16 Jedi Guardians (80 Combat)
    -[X] Strike Hutt Illicit Operations and Operators (Requires investment of Skill)
    -[X] Heavy (Moguls, Kajidii, Overbosses (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
    -[X] Mira, 1 Watchman, 15 Jedi Sentinels, 17 Padawans) (71 Skill)
    -[X] Try and funnel support to the Rebels (Requires Investment of Diplomacy)
    -[X] Medium (The Mid-Rim, far, though not far enough, from the Hutts, though considerably wealthier than the nearby (AT LEAST 30 Diplomacy))
    -[X] Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 7 Consulars, 8 Padawans (48 Diplomacy)
    [X] Plan Eyes Forward
    -[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
    -[X] Heavy (You will hit very hardened targets, such as mercenary barracks (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
    -[X] 16 Jedi Guardians (80 Combat)
    -[X] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill)
    -[X] Heavy (You will help redesign the Rebel Fleet from its Hutt Origin (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
    -[X] Mira, 1 Watchman, 15 Jedi Sentinels, 17 Padawans) (71 Skill)
    -[X] Try and funnel support to the Rebels (Requires Investment of Diplomacy)
    -[X] Medium (The Mid-Rim, far, though not far enough, from the Hutts, though considerably wealthier than the nearby (AT LEAST 30 Diplomacy))
    -[X] Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 7 Consulars, 8 Padawans (48 Diplomacy)
 
So what is detachment anyway? I can't seem to find an explanation for it.
You know how everybody, ignoring for a moment whether or not they had good reason, got very mad that the Jedi didn't involve themselves into the Civil War until Revan and Malak and the others set off?

That anger, by and large, is Detachment. It describes the Jedi not getting entangled in outside Republic affairs, and is by and large a bad thing. That's not to say that every action accruing it is bad, but it does cause tension, arguments, even anger on the part of the Republic.
 
You know how everybody, ignoring for a moment whether or not they had good reason, got very mad that the Jedi didn't involve themselves into the Civil War until Revan and Malak and the others set off?

That anger, by and large, is Detachment. It describes the Jedi not getting entangled in outside Republic affairs, and is by and large a bad thing. That's not to say that every action accruing it is bad, but it does cause tension, arguments, even anger on the part of the Republic.
I feel like we should get some kind of trade-off benefit for not being tied to the Republic with a ball and chain.
 
I feel like we should get some kind of trade-off benefit for not being tied to the Republic with a ball and chain.
The benefit is, when the Republic is about to do something stupid or whatever you won't have to leap in. I don't mechanically, I expect, need to convince people to not do "X Republic Thing" whereas I do feel there is something of a need to mechanically incentivize cooperation with the Republic, even when it might otherwise be a bad idea, to model why the council might do it rather than just going "cause they're big idiots."
 
I think I will call the vote tomorrow. Don't know that I will actually get to update since it's you know, Christmas, but I will at least try.
 
Well, I tried. It's disappointing, though I think more than anything else I'm curious - why did people vote for my speech last time when it seems pretty clear from this followup vote that they wanted the other speech's intent?

We seem to be left with the Jedi saying one thing, and doing another, and I don't think that's going to be great for our credibility.

The die is cast I guess.
 
Well, I tried. It's disappointing, though I think more than anything else I'm curious - why did people vote for my speech last time when it seems pretty clear from this followup vote that they wanted the other speech's intent?

We seem to be left with the Jedi saying one thing, and doing another, and I don't think that's going to be great for our credibility.

The die is cast I guess.
Having a look at the two vote counts, the people who voted for [] Glorious Jewel and [] Sustainable Commitment don't match, aside from @w34v3r. So really it's not a matter of saying one thing and doing another, at least on a meta level - we just got outvoted by the opposition from last vote and some newcomers.
 
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