I have to agree that it would be much easier to read posts which are short and less bolded and italicized.
If the board waives the rules against doubleposting I can be shorter.

The bolding and italicization was an accident and I fondly hope you would have been able to deduce that from looking at it.

The two stars have so far failed to explain why the Shiplords exterminate populations for insufficiently militarizing the Secrets.
Hypothesis: In their experience, the badly outclassed civilizations are the ones most likely to explore unusual applications of the Secrets, the kinds that the Shiplords are actually trying to avoid but prefer not to go into too much detail on for fear of giving ideas.

Hypothesis: There's some kind of demented Darwinism: "We would rather exterminate you here and now than drag this out over a thousand years of you repeatedly failing to stop us. You are the weakest link, goodbye."
 
[X] Who are you, really?
The two stars have so far failed to explain why the Shiplords exterminate populations for insufficiently militarizing the Secrets. Would the approach of 'shoot first' have really worked with the Hjivin?
Well given the context of how the Tribute Cycle seems intent on putting species on a very narrow path, presumably one deemed safe by the Shiplords, I reckon at some point one species that didn't militarize the Secrets once they understood the Tribute Cycle ended up so terrified and desperate they went deep into the Secrets in search of a way to fight back. So the Shiplords tweaked the requirements to avoid that ever happening again.
 
The two stars have so far failed to explain why the Shiplords exterminate populations for insufficiently militarizing the Secrets. Would the approach of 'shoot first' have really worked with the Hjivin?
... because, in case there ever is a second Sphere, they would be easily gobbled up as more material, and don't have any value as foreign troops. Just a thought I had when reading your comment.
 
I don't think @Snowfire is telling that kind of story. I don't think this is the story of how if you have all the technology in the world and do the math the only way to preserve the galaxy is to torture every species in it forever until and unless inexplicable outside-context space magic provides a better way. I don't think Snowfire is going to give the Shiplords the dignity of building the setting so that they are objectively correct, even within their own context of knowledge, history, and calculation.
So... I will point one thing out up front: I'm not debating this point from where I think Shiplord morality lies, because that would just be speculation. As a rhetorical technique, I'm describing an extreme -- but internally consistent -- stance to demonstrate that the right perspective can explain a lot. I have, indeed, been trying rather hard to point out that this is extreme, and that I don't expect anyone to agree that it is actually in line with something we consider to be "moral."

And I'm doing this because over the history of PW and SC, lots of people have just jumped to the notion that the Shiplords are irredeemable monsters with no excuse who deserve nothing more than oblivion. And while you may have a point about what kind of story Snowfire isn't telling, he's also not telling a story of paladins questing to slay demons. To truly appreciate the story being presented, to understand the depth of the conflict and the scope of the history, to reflect upon the deeper tragedies instead of just the surface horror, you have to -- at least for a moment -- separate yourself from your own opinions and biases to try to see how a mostly-rational actor could reach this conclusion without it being a blatant, inexcusable mistake.

The setting isn't going to prove the Shiplords objectively correct. Nor could it; morality by its nature is subjective, and what is or is not moral or ethical fundamentally depends on what you believe ought to be valued rather than on any facts about things that exist. Morality is not, after all, encoded into the laws of physics. However, what the story should show is how tragedies can lead good intentions astray, how from a certain point of view in some circumstances the best option you can come up with may still be a bad option.

Furthermore, the Shiplords themselves even agree with us! We know this. Because when you take a child's toys away for misbehaving, you don't build memorial shrines to your regrets and spend the rest of your life angsting about whether there was a better way. The Shiplords do that.

This suggests that on some level they share with and understand the human perspective on why what they're doing is wrong, and have decided to do it anyway. That they don't actually believe, not all the way down, that all this violence and torment and destruction and exterminations for being insufficiently badass but also for being TOO badass, is just the equivalent of a child crying because they don't want to take their medicine.

Because when a child cries and refuses to take their medicine, you don't build a temple to the question of whether it was right to tell them to do so.
When a child cries and refuses to take their medicine, and then they fall sick and die because of it, you very well may build a shrine to reflect upon what you should have done differently. Should you have forced them? If so, how much and what kind of force is appropriate? Was it right to punish them for hiding their disobedience, or should you have focused on rewarding better behavior? Why did they refuse in the first place -- had you been a bad parent unworthy of being trusted? Or is trust not as important as making sure they're taken care of, even if they hate you for it? Was there some alternative medicine you could have researched that they wouldn't have fought against?

What about when a child steals things?

What if that wasn't the first time?

What if that thing was a gun?

What if they took that stolen gun and shot someone with it?

What if they took that stolen gun and shot a lot of people with it?

What if they took that stolen gun and shot themselves with it?

When do you act? What do you do? How do you prevent it? What level of intervention is necessary, and what will only make it worse? Afterward, how can you even tell if you did the right thing? Is it possible that nothing you could have done would have stopped it? Would your intervention have worked for a different child? Would another child have stopped before going that far if you didn't take action? Would your intervention have pushed another child to go farther?

There are no simple answers. There are no one-size-fits-all answers. Any policy you establish will either fail to intervene in cases where it's needed, or it'll oppress innocent people who never needed it in the first place, or more likely it'll fail both ways.
 
Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by Snowfire on Jul 27, 2021 at 9:53 AM, finished with 112 posts and 17 votes.

  • [X] Who are you, really?
    [X] How did your people go from using Contact Fleets for the First Contact, to using Tribute Fleets? We have witnessed the Hjivin and the Zlathbu, but we see no answer just yet.
    [X] What do you mean, help us?
    [X] Explain. (yes, that's open. But I think there's a lot to learn of how Kicha is understanding that offer/question.)
    [X] Write-in: Why did you decide there was no better alternative?
    [X] Why are you doing this?
    [X] "We want peace. You want peace. You wanted peace. ...Why, then, are we spiraling into war?" (Why are you doing this?)
    [X] On many levels: who, what, when, where, why, and how to pretty much the entirety of current Shiplord culture and affairs. We're here because we know there is a way to end the war without burnt-out stars across the galaxy. But, we can start with:
 
Unexpected Communiques
A week and more later, it was still difficult to accept it. You'd suspected that the answer to a War Fleet had been within humanity's grasp, they'd known far too much that they shouldn't have about your people to make a declaration like they'd made at the end of their third battle with your people. To demand that you listen, that you explain, and to show no fear was either the act of madness or terrifying knowledge. Having your suspicion of the latter vindicated had been the worst experience in your many centuries of life.

Watching the War Fleet flash back out of jump, significantly reduced and without the Lumen that had been attached to the deployment made it all too real. That the majority continued coreward at max drive was another pronounced sign of things having gone markedly off-plan. Their support wing stayed within the controlled space around the relay for a few hours, refitting the handful of vessels from the deployment that had required drive replacements, then headed swiftly for the nearest fleet staging base. They provided you with details of the battle, duplicates of packets transmitted to Central Command, and what they showed was exactly what you'd feared.

Somehow, humanity had discovered the truth of the War Fleets. How they'd done that was going to haunt Central's analysts, because there was no basis for their acquisition of that knowledge early enough to develop even basic Orrery technology. That they'd clearly gone and done so anyway was frightening, and made you wonder if the recordings of the previous battle hadn't jarred loose some absurd vein of prophecy.

Since then, you and the rest of the station's crew had done your duty. You'd hardened the controlled space around the station, activating ancient protocols from the time of the War of the Sphere to secure the station and protect it from potential subversion. Central Command had been quick to promise reinforcements to supplement your defence fleet, but they'd take months at best to reach you from the nearest muster, and they were hesitant to risk more War Fleet vessels against an opponent that clearly understood their capabilities.

So you were largely left to your work, preparing to execute the least talked about but always present duty of a Relay Officer. Part of the purpose of a relay station was to act as a tripwire against hostile action, with predictable consequences for the tripwire. Their self-defence capability had been upgraded after the War of the Sphere, but everyone knew that those upgrades had been more to protect the Relay long enough for it to purge and self-destruct in the event of another encounter with such a race. Still, it was gratifying to see the drone clouds grow steadily thicker and more lethal as the days passed.

You tried your best not to pay attention to events beyond your own little slice of the world, but it was difficult. The very existence of your post was to transmit messages across the galaxy. Staying out of touch with it was essentially impossible. So you saw the first movements of Central Command, the internal announcements in preparation for the reactivation of a section of the ancient reserve. If humanity could defend itself against War Fleets, it would be only a matter of time before the truth of their actions spread.

So they would have to be defeated, before the other scattered nations of the galaxy could discover that what so many of them looked upon with truly superstitious fear was in fact just another technological marvel.

But should they?

You'd been grappling with that question in your off duty time ever since the precursor announcements to reserve activation had hit the net. You'd never formally joined a Hearthguard, but you'd spent five cycles working across the Five Sorrows as part of your tour as a Systems Specialist, and something about that time had stuck with you. And though you'd never shirk in your duties, it did make you wonder.

Humanity hadn't breached any of the Directives as far as any of you could see, or at least no Directive that had ever been made public. Just like the Fifth Sorrow, but the Hearthguard had lost much of their sway within the Authority since then. And there were still those classified files about energy generation, though, and - you tried to shake away the stubborn thought, but it persisted.

There'd been something strange about the readings on one of the War Fleet craft that moved immediately coreward. You'd only caught it because of Captain Peros' exemplary dedication to ensuring the station's sensor net remained at a hundred twenty percent efficiency at all times, but it had been there. When analysed, it pointed to one of the truly ancient War Fleet craft that had been deployed on this mission, part of a storied legacy.

The Light Between Shadows were a legend among the Fleet, and with good reason: their service went all the way back to their actions to prevent the First Sorrow from taking all creation. They'd maintained their purpose as a special combat unit ever since, and had been among the speartip detachments that ended the Battle of the Burning Line. Their defeat to the Fourth Sorrow had been what had ended that war - not that it had truly given its winners victory.

But this time, one of their vessels had radiated a signal that you'd only seen before on the recordings from humanity's home star. The same signal as the human personal assault units that had devastated a Regular Fleet. You'd been curious, wondering what they'd found that could do that, but there was nothing you could find in the recordings that had been passed over by the War Fleet. The Lumen died, the War Fleets retreated, that was it. Or, that was what it had appeared.

There was an awareness among Shiplords that Central Command did not always tell the full truth. Some data was dangerous, but it was also accepted that the Authority held them to account for such things. Still, finding a few fraction of a second cut from the battle footage was...odd. That had to have been ordered before the War Fleet even left Sol. What had they taken?

Alas, that you lacked the time to contemplate it properly. First, came the readings of a focused interstellar transmission, blasting out from the star humans had named Sol to some unknown receiver. It had clearly been directed, however, and that was passed back to Central Command. Likely nothing to truly worry about, there were few races in this sector capable of mounting any challenge to a true detachment of the Regulars. But still a concern. If humanity was sending messages, then they'd found someone to talk to in the cycles since their defeat of the Tribute Fleet. That was unexpected.

Still, you and your fellows continued your work, increasing the strength of the station's defence net and drone swarms until you were forced to send out extraction craft to local star systems to produce more. And you tried, with little success, not to think too hard about the questions plaguing you. Right up until you couldn't avoid them anymore.

It shouldn't have been possible. Tribute Fleet systems were designed to purge all strategic data as they died, and the human fleets had allowed the Regulars to withdraw in good order, taking cripples and all escape pods with them.

But the alarms that howled through the station regardless on that ninth day, ripping you from your contemplation of a broader strategic analysis with Lijthe. The station AI had vanished from your virtual the moment before the alarms sounded, and your own perceptual accelerators kicked in with them. They gave you plenty of time to realise exactly how screwed you all were.

The armada emerging from jump all around you could have put a full Regular Fleet to shame. Three dreadnought squadrons slashed into being right at the edge of your defensive perimeter, and they did not lack for attendants. Their escorts came with them, sharp-toothed destroyers and cruisers to guard them against the swarming mass of drones that Lijthe was already concentrating away from the enemy's point defence envelope. Limpet craft sprang loose from the multi-kilometer dreadnoughts, thickening the layers of protection around them without once interfering with their firing lanes.

Lijthe had opened fire the moment they'd recognised the threat, but the resources of a Relay had never been designed to stand up to even a single squadron of dreadnoughts. Seconds raced tortuously by, and more contacts littered the screen as the sleek patterns of human carrier craft launched their broods. Shoals of missiles thickened the rain of weapons fire sleeting in from all sides, and most of them appeared to be proximity fused antimatter warheads, each detonation another rent in the wall of drone craft that was your only true defence.

The relay defence fleet stood no chance against this, the cruiser component and its escorts brushed contemptuously aside by the human fleet's smaller capital ships. And the relay pulsed beneath your feet, once, twice, three times, the signals that you'd all learned and hoped to never have to send.

Contact. Enemy Overwhelming. Remember Us.

They carried every shred of sensor data that the shattering drone shell could send through the haze of jamming. It tore at your sight despite the station's filters, but you did your job, analysing, tagging ship types and numbers. Trying to see a pattern in their deployment beyond the obvious. That they'd known exactly where to find you.

Then a voice hissed across the stars, as cold as the space between them and twice as deadly. Yet its message was… different to what you'd expected.

"Shiplord relay station. You are incapable of stopping our fleet, but we do not take any joy in murder." Something unsaid snarled beneath those words, you could feel it in the translation - and that had been a human one! "Power down all combat systems, sever your drone links, and you will live. You have until my assault boats reach your station to comply."

"You have no ability to board us." Captain Peros replied. Or began to. A massive energy spike flared from one of the nearer dreadnoughts, and a surge of eye-tearing lightning lashed into the drone cloud. No drone, not even yours, could survive a surge of that magnitude, and chains of fire danced across the rapidly thinning swarm.

"What are you?" You whispered into the net.

"We are humanity." That same, terrible voice replied. Only then did you realise that your question had found the open circuit. "And I am the sword that laid waste to every fleet of yours to enter our home since the first."

A pause, barely enough to begin to breathe out, and with it another realisation. Humanity had developed combat accelerators that were close to matching your own.

"Until my assault boats arrive." Lina Sharpe told you, as another blaze of branching death lanced from her flagship. The supply of Emitters was still far too low to equip even a fraction of her capitals with weapons based on them, but they'd been promised to be a highly effective weapon against the drone clouds. She'd have to get her R&D teams something nice. Then she leaned forward in the virtual command space, watching the defences of the nearest relay to Sol crumble with pitiless eyes, and spoke once more.

"Make your choice."
 
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Hey, so I did promise this from your old pal on the relay station. And yes, there is a reason that Lina is this angry. Losing people in war is inevitable, she gets that. She always knew it was going to happen. Having the Shiplords almost pull off hiding their abduction of a human is quite a different matter. @Baughn has checked this, but he was by his own admission rather sleepy and I wrote almost all of this today, so please forgive any errors. I'll start work on the story update tomorrow sometime. For now I slep.
Oh god 2am why
 
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Oh boy.

Yeah, something's rotten if even the Shiplord Brass is playing silly buggers with their frontline agents who are dealing with all the heartache.
 
Oh boy.

Yeah, something's rotten if even the Shiplord Brass is playing silly buggers with their frontline agents who are dealing with all the heartache.
Or they don't want to risk humanity finding out they grabbed a Unisonbound out from under them - they would have succeeded in that but for Vision being OP af.

And to be fair, Relay personnel aren't exactly frontliners. They're military, sure, but not exactly primary combat arm except in very rare cases like this. Some degree of classification makes sense.

Unless I'm missing your point entirely. Which given, uh, 2:34 am, not unlikely.
 
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Or they don't want to risk humanity finding out they grabbed a Unisonbound out from under them - they would have succeeded in that but for Vision being OP af -

And to be fair, Relay personnel aren't exactly frontliners. They're military, sure, but not exactly primary combat arm except in very rare cases like this. Some degree of classification makes sense.
The true frontline being Regular and War Fleet personnel, right? (Tribute Fleets not being used for serious military stuff)
 
Yeah, fair enough.

Still, huh, I wonder how often they just get demands to Surrender. My impression is that the Shiplords are sort of inclined towards Total War--because most people are too weak to be in a position to take captives, and the ones who are strong enough are usually so ripshit mad or otherwise mad with power that they wouldn't take prisoners anyway and would instead just torture them horribly.

"Utterly dominated" followed by "But we're not going to commit warcrimes" is probably something they're not used to responding to.
 
The true frontline being Regular and War Fleet personnel, right? (Tribute Fleets not being used for serious military stuff)
*innocent whistling sounds*

Still, huh, I wonder how often they just get demands to Surrender.
It has happened before. It has never happened often.

I wonder how long it's been since some of those ancient reserves have been activated? Were some put on ice after the fifth sorrow was concuded?
Most of them have been in storage since the War of the Sphere.
 
Most of them have been in storage since the War of the Sphere.
Shiplord tech is that stagnant? Really?

Hell, if they can just put fleets of warships into storage and then bust them out again millenia later and they won't be obsolete, why don't they have such massive reserves of War Fleets in storage that they just slap a bunch of AIs into them and then send them to wreck their foes with sheer numbers and speed? Hell, with their culture and population size (not to mention clinical immortality), they've got to have sufficient crews ready to call up from reserve to man all of them if need be.
 
The Light Between Shadows were a legend among the Fleet, and with good reason: their service went all the way back to their actions to prevent the First Sorrow from taking all creation. They'd maintained their purpose as a special combat unit ever since, and had been among the speartip detachments that ended the Battle of the Burning Line. Their defeat to the Fourth Sorrow had been what had ended that war - not that it had truly given its winners victory.

'Asking questions about the Shiplords had ended a war before' + 'The Light Between Shadows were part of Shiplord efforts to save creation back in the beforetimes' + 'they lost against the Fourth Sorrow and that's why that war ended' + 'the Shiplords now go to great lengths to hide their Sorrows and don't teach anyone things anymore' = we still don't know anything about where the Secrets come from or why the Shiplords say not to hang out in interstellar space, but it seems some really bad stuff went down

Whoever was the Fourth Sorrow, I guess they dug up some monster/technique/Secret/application from Shiplord history to try to break free? And it worked until it backfired spectacularly. (And of course the Shiplords took from that the wrong lesson, because of course they did. 'they will use knowledge of our historical traumas to make weapons so we should never explain the historical basis behind our actions' - you literally make everyone see you as an enemy, that's your problem, you are fighting the entire galaxy all the time forever, and you murder them if they aren't good enough at fighting you for some reason so no duh they needed a weapon, stop being sad about it and start not being awful)

In happier news:
Third Secret officially get, and better still, put to good use! Not in time for the War Fleet, but in some ways that only makes humanity's tech development schedule look scarier.

Anyway, I hope they surrender. The sooner any Shiplords start opening up to the possibility of something other than one side of this war murdering everyone on the other side, the better.

Shiplord tech is that stagnant? Really?

I've always gotten the sense that they're supposed to be a fully mature civilization on the tech side of things, which means there's not a whole lot further for them to go with their tech. Their repeatedly demonstrated problem isn't their tech level - they do really great at anything they get the idea to try, up to whatever the ceiling is without some kind of off the wall break-through, like the Zlathbu or the Hjivin or the humans have in their respective areas of expertise. Their problem is they think they've tried everything, and don't ever do new stuff until someone proves them wrong.

I don't think they have something better than a War Fleet. I don't know if it's possible without involving Practice or other nonsense. They probably have a bunch more stuff, but it'll be different stuff rather than even sneakier+teleportier+starblowupier. They already maxed all the skill trees, from their point of view. (They probably haven't maxed them in an absolute sense, but if there wasn't a ceiling somewhere due to mentality and/or the tyranny of physics then no one would ever stand a chance against them due to the sheer ridiculous advantage of that much of a head start, and this wouldn't be much of a story at all.)
 
Somehow, humanity had discovered the truth of the War Fleets. How they'd done that was going to haunt Central's analysts, because there was no basis for their acquisition of that knowledge early enough to develop even basic Orrery technology. That they'd clearly gone and done so anyway was frightening, and made you wonder if the recordings of the previous battle hadn't jarred loose some absurd vein of prophecy.
Must have been a great moment on the flagship of the War Fleet when they hopped in and someone asked, "Hey, does that look kinda like an Orrey to you?"
 
Shiplord tech is that stagnant? Really?
Not at all. At least not entirely so. The Shiplord reserve has gone through periodic updates and quality checks over the millennia, to ensure that they remain top of the line and fully capable of deployment if an emergency occurs.

At the same time, most of these upgrades have been marginal ones. Increases on shield strength, weapons range, armour densities, etc. Things where most of what you're doing is just disconnecting a system from the smart matter around it and plugging in a new and improved one.

The Shiplords certainly do possess a War Fleet reserve, but it's not as big as you'd think for a couple of reasons. The Shiplords created the reserve after the War of the Sphere, what you now know to be their Third Sorrow. Their War Fleet numbers at that time were well below what they considered optimal, whilst the Regulars had been created from the war and were the largest combat arm by several orders of magnitude.

A fleet that size was no longer seen as necessary, but the Shiplords also didn't want to recycle it all in case it was ever needed again. So they put most of the fleet into storage. Over the years they've slowly built on it, eventually adding small components of current-generation Pacifiers. The main issue with storing War Fleet craft though is that their development cycle was for a long time much faster than Regular Fleet vessels. And new models typically required ripping out 60%+ of ship systems. Easily done with the right facilities, but difficult to keep up with, so Central Command placed a strict limit on War Fleet inventory after the Authority told them to either do it themselves or they'd (the Authority) do it for them.

Something to take into account there as well is that the Shiplord military appears still subordinate to a civilian authority. Exactly what shape that relationship takes today isn't clear, but they're definitely still the senior partner in those interactions. The military are an important part of Shiplord society, and are treated as such. But they don't control it.

Third Secret officially get, and better still, put to good use! Not in time for the War Fleet, but in some ways that only makes humanity's tech development schedule look scarier.
You actually had Emitter tech pre-Third Battle of Sol, I remember writing up your success there. The issue was that you didn't have enough time to deploy it. In fairness, you still haven't had that time, production is still spooling up. But the War Office has its own R&D teams and they're good at their business. As exemplified here.
 
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For some reason I read "but we do not take any joy in murder." as "but we do not take any joy in murder, unlike you."
I now that's not fair, but your murderer being sad about killing you - and doing it nevertheless - isn't any better.
But the War Office has its own R&D teams and they're good at their business. As exemplified here.
If 'being bad at their business' were in the cards, the story would already have ended with a SL victory.
 
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For some reason I read "but we do not take any joy in murder." as "but we do not take any joy in murder, unlike you."
I now that's not fair, but your murderer being sad about killing you - and doing it nevertheless - isn't any better.
You're not wrong. Lina is just ever so slightly pissed at the Shiplords right now. She's also trying (trying, damnit) to not set a tone where the only option for the Shiplords is death. At a strategic level this makes sense; if you give your enemy no chance of escape then they will fight with utter ferocity until the end. But it's also a cultural thing. They're trying to be better, even though it's hard. Not entirely succeeding, but that's part of being human.
 
So... I will point one thing out up front: I'm not debating this point from where I think Shiplord morality lies, because that would just be speculation. As a rhetorical technique, I'm describing an extreme -- but internally consistent -- stance to demonstrate that the right perspective can explain a lot. I have, indeed, been trying rather hard to point out that this is extreme, and that I don't expect anyone to agree that it is actually in line with something we consider to be "moral."

And I'm doing this because over the history of PW and SC, lots of people have just jumped to the notion that the Shiplords are irredeemable monsters with no excuse who deserve nothing more than oblivion. And while you may have a point about what kind of story Snowfire isn't telling, he's also not telling a story of paladins questing to slay demons. To truly appreciate the story being presented, to understand the depth of the conflict and the scope of the history, to reflect upon the deeper tragedies instead of just the surface horror, you have to -- at least for a moment -- separate yourself from your own opinions and biases to try to see how a mostly-rational actor could reach this conclusion without it being a blatant, inexcusable mistake.
Okay. In that case, I think you're carrying a lot of holdover sentiments from other discussions with other people who had different opinions, and projecting them onto me, because what you're apparently arguing against doesn't align well with what I'm trying to say.

The thing is... you say:

"separate yourself from your own opinions and biases to try to see how a mostly-rational actor could reach this conclusion without it being a blatant, inexcusable mistake."

That word 'mostly' does a LOT of the heavy lifting.

Because if you want to talk about how the Shiplords are understandable, about how they could in some relatable, comprehensible way have tragically fallen into this endless cycle of abusing the rest of the galaxy forever...

The one thing you DON'T want to do is try to make this be about how dispassionately they "calculated" a solution to their answers.

Quite the contrary, you are VERY much looking for the tragedy itself, the special nightmare of racial trauma, indoctrination, or misinterpreted experience that led them to truly believe that there was no other choice and that they needed to harden themselves to make Hard Decisions.

Because an open-minded and flexible race choosing this course above all others is almost inevitably LESS relatable and sympathetic than a traumatized and dogmatic race doing the same in the wake of other disasters and traumas that have mutilated their ability to explore the alternatives.

...

If you want a story like this to end in the conclusion "the Shiplords did the best they could and the best they could was this," you have to create a plausible mechanism for how that happened. One that isn't tantamount to saying "the Shiplords were right and if there's a different way to preserve the galaxy now, it's only because humanity pulled an outside context miracle out of a hat."

The more you make the Shiplords' choices contingent on them just having calmly done math, the harder it is to make that happen. Because while you may say morality is by nature subjective, most forms of plausible moral calculation are at least compelling to other people who share similar axioms. To make someone who has simply performed calculations seem to be wrong, you have to base their calculations on truly bizarre moral axioms.

And bizarre axioms ("individual suffering does not matter and also burning a species' infrastructure and killing 90% of a species' adults is functionally no different from forcing a child to take their medicine against their will") do not serve the intended purpose of making the Shiplords seem tragic. It just makes them seem like dogmatic alien assholes who are willing to brutalize the galaxy forever rather than consider listening to anyone else.

...

The setting isn't going to prove the Shiplords objectively correct. Nor could it; morality by its nature is subjective, and what is or is not moral or ethical fundamentally depends on what you believe ought to be valued rather than on any facts about things that exist. Morality is not, after all, encoded into the laws of physics. However, what the story should show is how tragedies can lead good intentions astray, how from a certain point of view in some circumstances the best option you can come up with may still be a bad option.
But if you want this result, you need the Shiplords' intentions to be recognizable as good. And you need for them to have a clearly recognizable comprehension that what they are doing is, if not wrong in the sense that they shouldn't do it, at least bad some more general sense.

There are two ways to make a villain tragic.

One is to make them pitiful, so that when you see past their facade, you realize that they are no longer fearsome and formidable, but instead seem weak and wretched.

The other is to make them self-aware, so that they know they have become villains, have betrayed old expectations and values, have done things that they regret.

...

Gollum is an excellent example of the former- his story works hard to drive home just how pitiable his condition is, and how he didn't become a vicious lying slinking cannibalistic backstabber because he was born that way. Gollum is rarely if ever aware of how degraded his condition is, but when you have some knowledge of how he came to be that way, it's hard not to feel sympathy- he's the victim of forces he could never have hoped to control or withstand.

Darth Vader is an excellent example of the latter- Vader knows that he's destroyed nearly everything he ever cared about, and damned everything he grew up with, all for effectively nothing except the service of an emperor who ultimately sees him as a powerful but expendable tool. He cannot perceive any real choice other than to go on doing as he is doing, but doing what he does never stops being painful to him.

Now, the trick is, these approaches are incompatible.

A villain who is persistently coded as pitiful must be conspicuously flawed and lesser-than in important ways. The story must create situations in which the villain is effectively helpless so that the pitiful nature of what has happened to them can be visible. And the villain must themselves be written as very much the victim of some other, more powerful extant force in the story.

A villain who is persistently coded as powerful (like Vader) can never really be pitiful, because their power makes them fearsome or at least worthy of a lively caution and respect. This gives them at least partial agency in nearly any situation.

...

The problem is that the Shiplords are more like Darth Vader than like Gollum. We're never going to pity them because they are just plain too strong. Like Darth Vader they have the raw power to accomplish almost anything they want that raw power can accomplish, unless directly thwarted by powerful heroes. And unlike Gollum, we quite simply do not and cannot have them at our mercy as a whole. So it's hard to get enough breathing room and control of the situation to really see the pitiable aspects of their character.

This means that to successfully make the Shiplords a tragic villain, we have to find a form of tragic downfall that works for powerful villains. Something that is compelling and doesn't just make them look like gigantic-scale bullies writ large. And, importantly, something that does not require their starting point to be repugnant to the viewer- they may have become something we find repugnant, but there has to be an understandable reason for it.

And quite frankly, "racial trauma stops them from considering better solutions to the problem of preserving life in the galaxy from existential Secret-abusing threats" is a MUCH less repugnant, non-bullying solution to this problem than "they just dispassionately did the math from their own weirdly reasonable if alien axioms and decided it was the right thing to do."
 
Okay. In that case, I think you're carrying a lot of holdover sentiments from other discussions with other people who had different opinions, and projecting them onto me, because what you're apparently arguing against doesn't align well with what I'm trying to say.
I see how you might think that, but I don't think I'm projecting onto you. I'm including arguments that aren't directly relevant to what you're saying, to be sure, because I'm expounding on my own thoughts on the setting in addition to carrying on this debate, taking into particular consideration that we're holding this conversation in the thread and there are other people reading besides just you.

That word 'mostly' does a LOT of the heavy lifting.

Because if you want to talk about how the Shiplords are understandable, about how they could in some relatable, comprehensible way have tragically fallen into this endless cycle of abusing the rest of the galaxy forever...

The one thing you DON'T want to do is try to make this be about how dispassionately they "calculated" a solution to their answers.

Quite the contrary, you are VERY much looking for the tragedy itself, the special nightmare of racial trauma, indoctrination, or misinterpreted experience that led them to truly believe that there was no other choice and that they needed to harden themselves to make Hard Decisions.
Yes, it does do a lot of the heavy lifting, and that was completely intentional. I believe that you've been missing the fact that I've been trying to keep the idea behind that "mostly" in there the whole time. I have been repeatedly trying to say that it's a matter of perspective.

The Shiplords are trying to be dispassionate. They are trying to choke down their trauma to do what seems rational from their perspective. But importantly, they are failing. As you suggest, that perspective is tainted and twisted by grief and regret and fear. Given their fears, given what they see to be at stake, given their history, they feel -- whether this is true from an outside perspective or not -- that their decisions are rational. They are blind to the paths that their emotions refuse to let them consider. This is the point I've been trying to make: not that the Shiplords are actually right, but that if you look at it from the eyes of a Shiplord they're choosing the least bad option available to them.

And they still feel like garbage for it.

They choke it down because to them it feels like it's worth it. To them, it's martyrdom, sacrificing not just their lives but their innocence for the greater good.

The problem is that the Shiplords are more like Darth Vader than like Gollum.
We don't pity Darth Vader, but we (are intended to) pity Anakin Skywalker. We see the lies he was fed, the broken promises, the contradictions and paradoxes that brought him to that point. By the time he's Darth Vader, there is no pity left to be had because he's embraced the darkness instead of continuing to fight against it. But then we see him break through it in a last hurrah of heroism, and in those final moments where the mask comes off, he's human again, pitiable and vulnerable, redeemed. (I say "intended to" because we all know the prequel trilogy wasn't as well-written as it could have been, but we can at least catch a glimpse of authorial intent in there even if it isn't well-executed.)

During PW, the Shiplords were Darth Vader. During SC, we're getting a glimpse into the life of Anakin.

And unlike in Star Wars, the protagonists here are hoping to redeem the Shiplords without them having to die in the end.
 
Back the Veil
"Who are you?" you asked. The world was still shifting around you, the implications of non-hostile contact difficult to grasp. What did it mean, what could it do? Yet all of that, unimportant compared to this question.

"Not your use-name," you corrected swiftly. "Every time we've tried to talk to your people, we've had to fight for answers." Desperately needed ones, especially now, but still secondary in this moment. "Who are you?"

The question had implications. Shiplord society was a complicated one, utilising use-names to supply an easily usable mechanism of identification. But that wasn't who someone was, and the Shiplords recognised this. A formal question of identity like the one you'd given wasn't asking Kicha for a name. It was asking her for an explanation of her existence.

Kicha gave the impression of a smile, one full of sadness, and she made another small gesture. Two limbs flowed out from her sides spreading low from her body to make reference to herself.

"I am of the Hearthguard," she told you, the same words as before, but different this time. And not alone. "I was one of them since before the name existed, and of all those first failures, I am one of the last to remain. I commanded one of the ships that enacted the Second Sorrow, and when I looked upon what we had done, I vowed to find a way to do better."

"Instead I am here." If Kicha had been human, that statement would have been a ragged sob, thick with self-loathing. "For half a million cycles I have been this Sorrow's steward, hoping for another to find the way I could not. To prove that there could have been another way, and that softer words could still mean something. I could not count the number of simulations I've witnessed, even those rare ones that pushed the bounds of the simulation."

The veil of nanotech around her swirled close, tightening in under the weight of a guilt too deep for words to express as she struggled with the last words.

:Sidra, can you retract my facial screen?: It could have been a question. It wasn't one, and your Unison partner knew it. Your Masque rolled back, revealing your face, and you stepped forward towards a soul that even now fought not to break under the strain of thousands of millennia. You couldn't help it. Shiplord or not, she had never tried to hurt you.

"They all failed," she said, forcing the words out even as you took a breath of your own in hopes of helping her do so. Her head snapped up as she heard you do it without the mufflers of your Masque, and her own veil spasmed. "You should not do that," she started to say.

"But I will," you told her, shaking your head. The motion was a human one, but that was the point, and everything you could feel told you it was the right one to make. "You have revealed yourself. I will not allow you to do so alone."

You could almost feel the muffled, impotent irritation of Adamant's intelligence section, but you put it out of mind. It wasn't important right now. Showing camaraderie with a potentially invaluable ally was, and you weren't faking.

"They all failed," Kicha repeated, struggling with her fraying voice. "I tried to learn, to apply what they'd shown me, but it wasn't enough. I wasn't enough. And to see you come here and find a way, to chart the path so perfectly that you not simply caution their response, but offer an answer." A Shiplord headshake flickered in the air

"What do you mean?" Vega moved up, the Harmonial's own helm sliding back, a soft touch between your platforms expressing wordless understanding and agreement. Kicha made another gesture, and the holo around you shifted from its default into a strategic projection of the galaxy. You'd seen it before, or Sidra had, in the runthrough the Unison Intelligences had done before you tried your own hand at changing things.

"You won the Contact Fleet free, as so many others have," Kicha explained, sweeping a hand through the regimented order of War Fleets clustering at the Shiplord border. That was as expected, at this point. "But according to the simulation, you also made Sphere's Minds listen."

The border of the Sphere was very different. If you'd remembered correctly, it should be a fifth of the way into the gap between the two polity's territory. Instead, it hadn't moved at all.

"The simulation is as perfect as we can make it," the Shiplord continued. "We've built it from everything we ever recovered about the Hjivin, and with that and the Seventh, the simulations can make incredibly accurate predictions. To delay the war this long is unprecedented. And as I'm sure your," she paused, unsure. "The partner intelligences you carry with you?"

"Unison Intelligences."

"Yes," she said. "I was watching you after the reply you gave me, and saw them show you the war as it had been. I don't think you realise how old that response is." You blinked, and a moment later wondered if the Shiplord would recognise the motion's meaning. She did.

"You gave me a formal recognition phrase that fell out of use over three hundred thousand cycles ago." There was honest laughter in the Shiplord's words, something no human had ever heard. "Perhaps one in every ten million who visit this place know it. Fewer than a hundredth of them use it."

The continued confusion you were feeling must have shown in your face, as the laughter stopped and Kicha peered close. Her Masque shifted, curious, assessing even.

"You didn't know," she said. Behind it came another question, faster than you'd expected. "How didn't you know? Your infiltration in all other aspects was flawless, and only a handful of the Hearthguard here would have recognised your response as archaic instead of simply unusual."

You had no immediate reply. Fortunately, Vega did.

"Does it matter?" the Harmonial asked plainly, blunting the flood of curiosity she could feel rising in the Shiplord. Kicha considered the question, and her veil undulated in a distant cousin to a shrug.

"I suppose not," she admitted, drawing herself back. You almost regretted it. There'd been something remarkably young in the Shiplord's sudden curiosity, as if for a moment she'd not been the ancient, guilt-stricken woman that now reasserted herself. "But to return from my distraction, I believe you can see the change."

She motioned again to the galaxy image, and the distance between the borders of the Sphere and Shiplords. "You know where the lines should be by now. And I think you know what it would mean, too. Our industrial capacity was always so much greater than that of the Sphere, but it was never optimised for wartime production. And the old Regular designs were products of a doctrine that would have been helpless against the Sphere. But with this?"

"It would have won the war for you," Kalilah grumbled, lowering her disruptor. "But how does that help us?"

"Because it might have prevented the war," Mir said, his tone detached, the young man possessed by his Focus as he stared at the imagery. "This shows a frontier. But it also shows the Hjivin the depth of Shiplord strength, and how you found a different way to it. For everything they did to their own people, their guiding minds weren't fools. They'd have realised that they couldn't win a war against you, and recognised that to continue to exist, they would have to change."

"It's not perfect," Kicha warned gently. "But it is far better than any Shiplord ever produced. And a war in this circumstance would be one we could have won on our own, I think. Without having to rely on the Uninvolved to end it, and reveal the strength they truly possess."

The conversation paused as you all considered that. The War itself had changed something in the Shiplords. Kicha hadn't confirmed any specifics, but you could guess. From then on, every newly found polity was another threat that must be confirmed to be otherwise. But its manner of ending had broken something in the species, and nothing in the sim data could tell you what.

"Why is that so important?" You found it surprisingly difficult to hold back the anger you felt in the question. "They saved everything. If the Sphere had completed what they were doing here."

You broke off, shivering at the memory of the twisted, planetary scale murder that had fed the nascent abomination. You didn't notice then, how Kicha reacted, her veil slicing to edges and points like a cornered animal. A memory that you had, the words ran through your head. A memory the Shiplords didn't share. Everything they knew came from what the Uninvolved had told them, and how much had those beings really been able to explain across the barrier between existences?

"You built a way to watch them," you said slowly, eyes widening in horrified realisation. "You forged swords, to strike them down if it looked like they'd ever do it again."

"But did you listen?" Vega broke in aghast, the Harmonial racing ahead of your own thoughts. Finding the links, even before you did. "Did you understand what they tried to tell you? Your history says that the Hjivin were trying to create an Uninvolved, but do you have any idea how they were doing it?"

Kicha had stilled as you asked more questions. She froze into nigh-immobility as Vega asked the last one. There was horror in the Shiplords every facet, but something more, too. Disbelief.

"What do you mean?" She whispered.

"What do you know about what the Hjivin were doing here? Before they were… stopped."

Kicha flinched. "I know what I remember. I was on one of those ships that came here after it all ended. I… the Aspect, it spoke. It said that they had no choice, that they had to prevent the creation of an abomination. We believed it. We did!" You weren't sure if those last words were trying to convince you, or herself.

You shared a look with Vega, another with Mir. If you did this-

:Just tell her, Mandy. : Vega snapped, and you reeled at the vicious heat in her mind-tone. Why was she - oh. You forgot, sometimes, exactly what your friend's Focus really meant. Harmony. The idea of being in agreement, which was founded in understanding. To be staring at the possibility of a misconception that had cost this many lives must have been as sickening to her as a Mendicament was to you.

:How?: you sent in reply, hurling calm and care down the link. Trying to help her stabilise. Being adults didn't even factor into this. It was the nature of a Focus to feel strongly within it. Any of you here could master that, but it could be difficult. As you'd just demonstrated.

:Tell her we found a record on the other world. That we witnessed the event.: Vega bit off the words with surgical precision, trying desperately not to cut you on them :Or just show her what we saw there. You learnt enough from the Marionettes to try.:

:Vega you can't,:
raw emotion slammed back at you before you could finish forming her name.

:Amanda, I know you mean well,: she told you with every attempt at gentleness. :But you know as well as I do that if she doesn't understand, she needs to. Use the projectors if you don't want to try connecting to her with Practice, all our platforms can access them. And-:

:And she can tell that you're talking,:
Lea said, inserting herself into the conversation with all the subtlety of a thrown brick. :Get on with it.:

"You know something," Kicha stated. "Something about what happened here, something that you think I don't. How can you think I don't? I was there, I listened!" The room rippled in response to her cry, and Kalilah's weapon slid back up. No, you had to defuse this. And that meant you had to explain.

Vega is not going to accept you not explaining what you saw and experienced to Kicha. The major question is how you justify knowing it. You have a few options, thankfully!
[] From What Is - Try to justify your understanding from the later sections of the simulation. You have a different perspective and Kicha knows this, but would it really work.

Vega: You are not great at lying, but if you feel you must.
[] A Hidden Record - Tell Kicha that you found something hidden on the other world of the system, a record that explained in detail what the Sphere was doing.
Amanda: And how do I explain how they never found it?
[] The Truth(Projection) - Show Kicha what you found on the other world, a memory left seared into the world by the actions of the Uninvolved. Use the projection systems of the room to do so.
Lea: Shouldn't we at least try to tell the truth?
[] The Truth(Reverie) - You learnt from the Marionette Observer during Second Contact that it was possible to share memories between races. This could be an extremely blatant use of Practice, but it would make the point impossibly clear.
Kalilah: I'm just going to be over here. Ready to glass the continent.
 
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