So, what were the odds before they left on this trip that the war fleet attacking Earth would have had a Lumen? I mean, that in and of itself should be a bit of a gutpunch, even if they won, right?

Edit: Also, given the info Kicha dropped, how much of that is in response to being emotionally unbalanced by the option to have Practice flashed at her?
To answer this directly - 99.9999% at a minimum. War Fleets as a whole are designed to be, and stay, a mystery to the Tributaries, current and former. They are deployed with a mind to this, leaving no witnesses would be just in character, and so directly assaulting a fortified system with a War Fleet would necessarily involve the deployment of a Lumen-class.

Blow up their star. It's the only way to be sure.


[X] Shelve this horror for now and continue with your visit at this Sorrow
-[X] Attempt to find a another path to peace from the second point Mir Identified.
[X] Yes
-[X] To both

There is no reason to suddenly get cold feet, after we had shown this much trust (however unwilling) to Kicha.
 
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Running the sim again is... interesting. And tempting.

Anyone of a mind to try and go after the captured Unisonbound?
I think Coda had a write-in for that. Of course, you have no idea where to even begin in finding him, let alone rescuing from whatever hellishly secure facility they probably stashed him in.
I wouldn't be surprised if Iris is going to have to do some information gathering to pull this off...

May I solicit the cast's opinions on both of these ideas?
 
[X] Shelve this horror for now and continue with your visit at this Sorrow
-[X] Attempt to find a another path to peace from the second point Mir Identified.
[X] Yes
-[X] To both
 
[X] Shelve this horror for now and continue with your visit at this Sorrow
-[X] Attempt to find a another path to peace from the second point Mir Identified.
[X] Yes
-[X] To both
 
[X] Shelve this horror for now and continue with your visit at this Sorrow
-[X] Attempt to find a another path to peace from the second point Mir Identified.
[X] Yes
-[X] To both
 
Alright, then, let's give it a shot. More interaction with Kicha sounds interesting.

[X] Shelve this horror for now and continue with your visit at this Sorrow
-[X] Attempt to find a another path to peace from the second point Mir Identified.
[X] Yes
-[X] To both

(Hey, I remembered! :D)
 
I believe that I am beginning to see the picture behind the early Sorrows. Even now, with any direct answers blocked by the oaths of the Hearthguard that Kicha had given, and with our ignorance of general Shiplord society stymieing our ability to ask the local visitors without raising suspicion.

Perhaps it will be even tied to the Fourth Sorrow.

Okay, here are a few quotes from the most recent update.
"I understand," Kicha's reply was layered with meanings too deep for you to follow. Maybe Vega would have better luck, but you lacked the Harmonial's instinctive mastery in applying her Focus to conversation. "You still don't know why we react that way, do you?"

You shook your head, and Kicha's veil shifted, flowing into the motions of a wistful smile.

"It is good to know that that remains for you to learn," she said, and if you had not been in the midst of a far more delicate conversation, you would have demanded a true answer then. Instead, you let her continue. "But if you fear the scanners and sensors of this place, I would Witness. As the steward of this Sorrow, I have the ability to override them, but I'd have to explain why."

As for Kicha, it was hard to tell. She'd gone utterly quiet as the vision ended, but you could feel the intensity of her thoughts surging to process what you'd shown her.

Your shaking sigh broke that silence, drawing the Shiplord's attention. For a moment, she simply stared at you, watching, examining, you couldn't be sure. But when she spoke, her voice was dead-toned, like a thing of glass shattered to dust.

"Where did you find this?" There was a touch of fire in the question. Had she been in any better condition, it would have been a shouted demand.

"On this world's twin," you answered hoarsely, ignorant of the tears on your face. "We felt something there, and on investigating, this was what we experienced. It hurt all three of us who found it, but it gave us a unique perspective on what happened here."

"I can see how it would," Kicha nodded heavily. She felt very cold to your wider senses, the same ancient pain she'd shared before numbing her reactions. "We knew that the Hjivin were trying to become or create something like an Uninvolved; those who ended them told us that. My understanding of the incarnation's words was that they had never wanted to act like that again, but would if needed to prevent such abominations. Those facts fuelled the Authority's agreement to the proposal to create weapons that would allow us to fight such beings ourselves."

"Why?" you asked. "The Uninvolved were clearly capable of it, and the Sphere were monsters. I-" Kicha raised an arm, her veil splitting into a subtle mimicry of a human hand, palm raised, and you stopped talking.

"Because," she explained, in the same voice of dead sand, "there is a reason that we reacted the way we did to what the Uninvolved did. Not their taking of action; that happened at the First Sorrow. But the way they did so here. The comparison is like night and day. And I am sorry, but I cannot explain why. You must see it for yourselves."

--[] The First Sorrow
Navigator's note: The yellow sun at the heart of this system was somehow twisted off axis by some monumental stellar event. Three major planetary bodies.
--[] The Second Sorrow
Navigator's note: A red giant surrounded by a graveyard of shattered worlds.
Kalilah: Our host implied that the First and Second Sorrows are somehow linked. She was there for the Second, not the First, yet gave the First far more importance. Why? Something to consider.

--[] The Fourth Sorrow
Navigator's note: A dying red supergiant, still flanked by the remains of its coterie.
Amanda: Very strongly without saying as much, Kicha suggested that we visit this Sorrow last. She wouldn't explain further.
As a matter of fact, my understanding is based on the events of the Second Battle of Sol.

Specifically, the outrage when we used Practice in front of Shiplords.

And pity when we tried to Understand the reason why they were outraged.

Also, it is based in part on the explanation what different options were when we examined the Sorrows of the Shiplords.





I will now begin my explanation.
"How dare you." You jerked back in shock, eyes widening unconsciously as the Shiplord spoke. The voice was deep, with the toneless edge of a synthesiser, but there was no missing the cold rage burning beneath it. "How dare you profane that gift and persist!"

"This will not hold me, desecrator." It said, and if its words had held a fraction of the power yours had, you would have been drifting atoms.
From the first segment, the outrage at Practice, we can see the reaction is... It's as if we were commiting an act of sacrilege in front of the Shiplords. The words Shiplord used, "profane" and "desecrator", are rather blatant in this.

We lacked any true context for this reaction. But now we have this context - the most likely trigger for sacrilege-associations for the Shiplords would be if something directly hit the nerve, and nothing would hit them, collectively and universally, stronger than something related to their Sorrows.

I conclude that Practice has long been known to Shiplords and that it is related to their Sorrows.

Next point. In the very next update. In fact, I strongly suggest reading it in entirety, because quoting two thirds of it is rather... Inelegant. So I will give the emotion, and the compiled poem. FYI, the poem begins right after the end of the first quote's words.
Then the Shiplord's helmet tilted up, fighting against the energy shell, in a mimicry of your own gaze. It was doing…something…but you didn't have enough context. There just wasn't enough there to build more than that outline, the edge of a deep well of alien knowledge and self. It wasn't staring into the abyss, but it was like…like trying to understand a picture painted in five dimensions. You could see a bit more clearly how it felt, however, even if the translation of emotion was informed by human bias.

And as it looked across and up, you felt the burning rage at its core turn to something so opposed that you thought it impossible.

Pity.

Soft, golden light bloomed around its armour, something that you instinctively knew was not offensive. And when it spoke again, it was in the manner of one's last words.

"I am your prophet and portent of doom
I call fire from the stars
Cause old fears to resume

I am progress's enemy
Complacency's friend
I am that from which
You must always defend

I am a voice from the stars
Speaker lying unseen
I am the figure that haunts
At the edge of your dream

I am dark and I am danger
Trials without end
But when time comes to greet me
You will call me
friend."

"For all that I am,
I am not your enemy."

"Believe."
When we tried to Understand them, the reaction for the leader of the Tribute Fleet was to look at us with pity, to recite a poem, and to commit Fleet-wide suicide.

I remember the thread pointed out that this poem sounds like a literal riddle. And it really does.

I now think that this was never a riddle about the past. But about the future. A Prophecy. Of a sort.

More importantly. Look at those first verses. Look at them. Don't you think that they remind you of something?

I am your prophet and portent of doom
I call fire from the stars

Cause old fears to resume

Don't you think that fire from the stars is what the Ancient Uninvolved called down on Hjivin Sphere?
Don't you remember that Kicha revealed to us in the most recent update that the First Sorrow was also an Involvement? And that she said the way they reacted was like night and day, and that specifically was the reason for the fear?

It is as if the first verse is that Ancient Uninvolved describing himself to the Shiplords... For what is the Sorrow, if not the old fear of their entire species?

The poem weirdly fits the Uninvolved, acting as an opponent, as an antagonist, but not an enemy, to the Shiplords.

This line of thought is actually what makes me believe it is related to Sorrows.

That the nature of the Fourth Sorrow is in the beginning of the Tribute Cycle in earnest. That the impactful event that made it a Sorrow was the violent divide between the Shiplords, and the Uninvolved. The beginning of their own conflict lasting millenia if not millions of years.

Admittedly it is the weaker of my conclusion. It is supported however by the fact that Hjivin were the last near-peer polity the Shiplords ever encountered, implying that it wasn't mere hardship that made the event a Sorrow. But something more esoteric, perhaps.

Onto the third point. This one actually concerns the ties between the First Sorrow and the Second Sorrow, as hinted in the flavor text provided by Kalilah about the First Sorrow.

Now, remember the first point? Practice is tied to Sorrows of the Shiplords.

I found it important to note that Shiplords referred to the Practice as a gift.
That it was tied to Sorrows of the Shiplords to evoke such zealous response.
That the Involvement of the Third Sorrow was like night and day in comparison to the Involvement of the First Sorrow. A complete opposite, and what is the opposite to complete annihilation of a species if not salvation?
That the weapons meant to strike at Uninvolved are also effective against Unisonbound, the users of Practice.
And that Practice came to Humanity after The Week of Sorrows, as the Gift of the dying Dragons.

Same words. And I don't believe it to be a coincidence.

I believe that the Involvement of the First Sorrow was when Shiplords were bestowed a Gift of Practice, potentially as a sacrifice of the Uninvolved in question.

And that the Second Sorrow is the event which caused the Shiplords to squander and lose the Gift of Practice.


That is how the First Sorrow and the Second Sorrow are related - as the moments of gaining Practice, and losing it.
This is why profaning the Gift of Practice, as the Shiplord Captain put it, evokes such a response.



TL: DR version.
1) Practice is related to Sorrows;
2) Shiplords were gifted Practice via the Involvement of the Uninvolved in the First Sorrow;
3) Shiplords misused and lost Practice as species in the Second Sorrow;
4) At a guess, Fourth Sorrow is when Shiplords found themselves forced to deploy anti-Uninvolved weapons against the Uninvolved.


Finally about the options given.

Witness in these memorials of Shiplords is accessing historical records.
Remember is about the cultural impact of the Sorrow on the Shiplords.
Experience is all about using the simulations to try and find the better way.

I think the silent horror of the Fifth Sorrow, the Zlathbu, is that the Experience option is missing entirely. Implying that the Shiplords no longer believed that there was a better way to find. When we see how they tried to no avail with the Hjivin, it offers few hopes... But the important part is they actually tried.

And I also think that, going forward, the Remember option will rise in comparative value.

For the Zlathbu, from our viewpoint ever using Tribute Fleets was a mistake from the very beginning, but Witnessing that the situation was a point of intense contention and Shiplords did seek ways to deescalate and find a mutually accept able compromise for literal decades, would give former Tributaries much greater impact than Shiplords admitting that in the end there was a mistake there.

For Humanity, understanding the cultural ties of Sorrows and Practice would be paramount to helping placate the Authority now that Third Battle of Sol has been concluded.

And if my guess on the nature of the Fourth Sorrow (beginning of the conflict between Shiplords and Uninvolved) is correct, Remembering Third and Fourth Sorrows would allow us to more effectively tackle that angle. Because we would see old fears reawakened, and old fears realized, respectively.

I will abstain from the decision on whether we should Remember the Third Sorrow - but I will definitely advocate Remembering both First and Second.
 
Running the sim again is... interesting. And tempting.

I wouldn't be surprised if Iris is going to have to do some information gathering to pull this off...

May I solicit the cast's opinions on both of these ideas?

For the first, from the man himself.
Mir: The best place to begin is where we stopped. The points are separate, but I know I can do better with a better foundation. And I think that matters.

For the second:
Amanda: I want this more than I can even describe, but it's impossibly risky. Perhaps with Vega's senses we could find them, but what then? The Adamant isn't a warship.
 
Amanda: I want this more than I can even describe, but it's impossibly risky. Perhaps with Vega's senses we could find them, but what then? The Adamant isn't a warship.
And if I haven't missed something rather crucial, there is not replacement for the Adamant on the current mission.
 
Darkling Stars
In the darkness between the warming light of suns, there was space for many thoughts and time enough to consider them for an eternity. You knew the quiet places of this fraction of the galaxy well. They'd once been yours to roam in flesh and blood and more, or would have been, had you not found them under the weight of a greater power.

Yet even here, you could not look entirely away from the fire tugging at the roots of that dominion. And all of it unleashed by a race so young that they had barely seen stars beyond their own, yet had ignited hope in the hearts of far more than their own. The halfway soul you had found among them, unskilled in true speech yet still capable of it, had offered your kind something.

She had had requests, of course. That had been predicted, and the Gathering had given you rights to offer much. For what you would ask of her race, you could do nothing less. But for her to offer your kind something as well, and that her race might be able to do it, was not something any of your kind could have expected. A blindness of certainty, that none could reach up to grant succour, and one of those thoughts you considered deeply as you waited.

You had seen this race reach up towards you, grasping at the threads of power so like your own and yet anchored in the world so brilliantly that none of the webs cast between the stars could see them. It explained why your kind had never noticed them, until you found that fitful handful of sparks seeking them, but it did not explain how it had been done.

Watching as you had for eyeblink-years had not granted any understanding. Talking with the halfway soul, the changed and becoming, she could have given you something. But if she had, the vastness of your mind was too deeply held by the words she'd given to grasp it.

"No one deserves to be forgotten."

You had believed that once. Before the truth of the world had become clear to your people, before billions had died to bring you a half-life in a galaxy so lost to chains of blood that those bindings were all that mattered. Gathered under an aegis woven of their very souls, that belief had endured, and the halfway soul had turned it on you with such deftness. She had never meant it as a weapon, but it had cut so deeply, and you were not a Forgetful. Their very existence would be challenged by those words, and the offer that it carried.

And it was all of it, almost too much. Your place for eyeblink eons now had been to shift and change, to be the bearer of those things called transitory into the Gatherings and the minds of elder and youth. You gave meaning to the nature of shifting worlds, to the cry of the made-new. You bridged the gap, that without would lead your kind to a terrible doom. The same which you now had to explain, might no longer hold. And if your memories would live, couldn't you?

The thought rippled like fire across the caverns of your manyself, catching on hooks of blood and pain driven so deep that finding them was near enough impossible. Yet here, they burned, the answers shrieking to deny the possibility…

The hope, that a single soul had somehow returned to you.

Your peers were close to the meeting place you had chosen, close to where you lay in the silence of . The dust had long since passed, and they were more than curious now. You'd felt the rippling shiver of the way you'd gifted opening twice between the spiral stars. You'd given them what they'd needed, and would again for their people. Yet you wondered...did they understand what you had given them yet?

The Forgetfuls might object, but the decision had been left to you. And they would have far more to object to, you thought, by the time this Gathering ended. Not least among all how long it would take. They had always enjoyed the comfort of time to prepare their answers. This was too much of your origin to take so long. Eyeblink years would not suffice. This would be decided in their moments, no matter the strain. It must be, for the world around you now was changing in ways that it had not in the memory of even the eldest among your kind.

There was a pulse to that feeling, a rippling through the fabric of the space beyond. So subtle that you doubted it would be believed. Youth would be too new to sense it, and the elders stood at such a scale that finding it in due time might prove challenging. Yet it was still there, and it would affect those of the middle when it came to decide.

What it might mean in grander schemes, you could only wonder. And now you could not even do that, for you felt the first of your arrivals. Time then. You'd grown used to it being so plentiful, inside the limits of your elders' eons. Now it was a beat that made you remember when blood had surged veins forgotten millennia ago.

You slipped between, and sang greeting to those swiftest arrivals.

Could you make them feel it too?
 
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Posted without any betaing because oh god it is 3am again why and I want to sleep. This is the result of @Sinned Valentine making a truly awful pun in Discord about a week ago and my feeling delirious and/or generous at the time. So you get an interlude from the list I posted waaay back towards the end of Practice War. This isn't the same one as you'd have gotten then, but it charts a similar perspective. Their choice, for reference, was A Darkling Watch. I hope my weird stream-of-consciousness ramblings perspective ends up being enjoyable. I'll do a vote count when I wake up so people know where things stand.

Nighto
 
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Your peers were close to the meeting place you had chosen, close to where you lay in the silence of . The dust had long since passed, and they were more than curious now. You'd felt the rippling shiver of the way you'd gifted opening twice between the spiral stars. You'd given them what they'd needed, and would again for their people. Yet you wondered...did they understand what you had given them yet?
Very nifty. A word is missing at the end of the first sentence here. Can be fixed after sleep, though.
 
You had seen this race reach up towards you, grasping at the threads of power so like your own and yet anchored in the world so brilliantly that none of the webs cast between the stars could see them. It explained why your kind had never noticed them, until you found that fitful handful of sparks seeking them, but it did not explain how it had been done.

Watching as you had for eyeblink-years had not granted any understanding. Talking with the halfway soul, the changed and becoming, she could have given you something. But if she had, the vastness of your mind was too deeply held by the words she'd given to grasp it.
So not even the Uninvolved know what the flying fuck the Dragons did to make Practice. Neat. That probably kills my idea of it being the Uninvolved of Dragonkind grafting itself onto humanity's souls
 
So not even the Uninvolved know what the flying fuck the Dragons did to make Practice. Neat. That probably kills my idea of it being the Uninvolved of Dragonkind grafting itself onto humanity's souls
Not necessarily true.

The current crop of Uninvolved is literally younger than the times when Shiplords' Sorrows memorials were open for their observations - but not so young that they no longer remember there actually was such a time.

Just because they cannot make heads or tails of the end result does not mean that the Uninvolved of yore couldn't. Or that they couldn't replicate the result.

On a side note, when I first heard that Uninvolved have a lifespan my assumption was an unflattering guess they wither, eventually.

As this sidestory shows, the Uninvolved are growing greater as they age. I guess then, you could say they not so much die but Go Further Beyond.
 
[X] Shelve this horror for now and continue with your visit at this Sorrow
-[X] Attempt to find a another path to peace from the second point Mir Identified.
[X] Yes
-[X] To both
 
[X] Shelve this horror for now and continue with your visit at this Sorrow
-[X] Attempt to find a another path to peace from the second point Mir Identified.
[X] Yes
-[X] To both
 
Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by Snowfire on Aug 13, 2021 at 8:37 AM, finished with 40 posts and 15 votes.
 
4) At a guess, Fourth Sorrow is when Shiplords found themselves forced to deploy anti-Uninvolved weapons against the Uninvolved.
Given this-
The current crop of Uninvolved is literally younger than the times when Shiplords' Sorrows memorials were open for their observations - but not so young that they no longer remember there actually was such a time.
-my best guess is that the initial conflict killed off ALL the Uninvolved of that era.

If that is the case, then it's possible that part of the point of the Tribute fleets is an effort at repopulating them by making becoming Uninvolved an attractive alternative.

Perhaps the Uninvolved fill some critical ecological niche, on a galactic scale?

The tribute fleet system seems tailor made to make a species going down that road much more likely, imo.
 
So, unrelated to anything in particular, but what root words, if any, have the other cultures and polities we've contacted used for Secrets?

Heck, what's the human thought process behind why it's a Secret?
 
So I will try to give a better answer to this later, but for now I just want to let people know that my keyboard broke tonight. Some water got into the membrane and may well have murdered the thing permanently. I've ordered a new one, but it won't arrive until Friday and I despise typing at any speed on the backup that I have. So unless I manage to get tippy-tapping away with my laptop, don't expect update until then. It sucks, too, because I was starting to get traction.
 
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