There's a nuance in the inflection. It's something that as a native speaker you probably both use and perceive but not necessarily consciously notice. Using my example earlier, compare how you might inflect "that was a good thing to do" (that is, beneficial) compared to "that was a Good thing to do" (that is, the D&D alignment).
Yes, but then I try to read Dmol's text to myself. And I use the capitalization as a guide to which words should get that extra dose of heavy emphasis and inflection.

And he's heavily emphasizing and inflecting so many words that his tone comes across as having unusual stridency, and sometimes this stridency comes across as dissonant because the capitalization is being applied in ways that I'm pretty sure aren't consistent with the message he intends to send.

Which is the real reason I started criticizing the capitalization. Because I'm pretty sure I've had this conversation with him before, and it's one of a set of recurring issues with how he communicates these ideas.

Again, reread the original text:

This war we are witnessing right now is like if the Federation from Star Trek had an issue with Ascended Life instead of Genetically Engineered Life and then decided to be a Guardian and Guide to other's efforts to Ascend and then had a bad first contact with Space Imperial China ran by Science Emperors that were using the Second Secret as a basis for their society that led to a galactic war.

This resulted in said Federation being saved at the last second by a Lifeform they Ascended nuking the Space Imperial China out of existence and pressing the Federations Ascended Life trauma button at the same time. At this point the Federation drops the Guide part of watching over other species Ascend and becomes a Fascist State that preemptively punishes any species that learns of the Secrets in order to prevent anything like this war and it's end occurring.
Capitalization of words like 'Ascend' and 'Lifeform' in this context doesn't even fit the role of capitalization you're describing (capitalization for emphasis). For that matter, it doesn't fit the role of capitalization in grammatical German (I can't speak for Serbian but @Dmol8 just said the rules are basically the same), where you capitalize nouns but not verbs.

Seriously, be nice. It's one thing to point out a helpful tip for communication. It's another to imply negative things about someone because of it. As long as someone is making themselves understood, as long as communication is happening, "right" and "wrong" grammar really don't matter.
Okay. In fairness, you're right, I'm being too harsh.

My candid opinion on @Dmol8 is that he's a deep thinker who is tragically limited and bottlenecked by the way he communicates those ideas. Specifically, by his tendency to make up names for concepts no one's ever heard of, rules about how to describe things that do not clarify what he's trying to say to others, and in general to deviate from standard English-language communication protocols in ways that are simultaneously:

1) Often to clearly intentionally affected to be deliberate, and
2) Not making things clearer than if he just did things the usual way.

I took the capitalization for an example of this.

OK did you miss the part where I said people from China and Japan use those same concepts and portray them as Good? I'm not talking about Orientalism and Occidentals' racist propaganda.

I'm talking about Japan's writing concept where the plot is only the purview of the protagonists that magnetically draw in other characters, China's cultivation stories that have a small handful of Enlightened characters that every other character orbits around and South Korea's specialists who are a cut above the rest of the characters in a story and as such get to decide questions of life and death.
That then raises the same problem in a different way.

Because you didn't say "a society that is kind of reminds me of certain aspects of a specific genre of Chinese fiction."

You said "Space Imperial China."

Which means that what you actually said was "[a society that is functionally identical to] Imperial China, except in space."

...

Now, suppose that we were talking about a society with a distant, remote autocratic emperor. An emperor who spends his time shut away in a palace, isolated and tended to by special servants. The emperor, in this scenario, rules over a vast and nominally meritocratic bureaucracy. The bureaucracy controls a gigantic state that is very powerful and the center of a large tributary network. This tributary network dominates a large region.

In that case, I'd say that it would be reasonably accurate to describe that as "Space Imperial China." Because then you'd be talking about a society that has many details that reflect what Imperial China is actually like.

But we're not talking about that. The Hijvin Sphere does not resemble Space Imperial China, so far as we can determine.

The Hijvin Sphere used Second Secret mind control to control most of its population, turning them into puppets who could be compelled to follow the rulers' desires at any time. Imperial China never did that.

The Hijvin Sphere used this mind control to enslave conquered populations. it expanded by doing this. Imperial China never did that- they did regular kinds of conquest and expansion, but no insidious mind control machinery was involved.

The Hijvin Sphere does unspecified horrific worse-than-death things to people in star systems it conquers. While being conquered by Imperial China was generally seen as bad, it is generally not seen as a fate worse than death for entire populations.

Thus, the Hijvin Sphere is very much not like the real historical Imperial China, as the real Imperial China actually existed.

...

I don't know if there's some random novel you've read that was written by a Chinese or Japanese person and later translated into Serbian and in the Serbian text it implies that Imperial China was a mind control dystopia like the Hijvin Sphere.

But in reality, Imperial China wasn't like that.

And when you say "Space Imperial China," we are not a bunch of telepaths who immediately know that you're actually talking about this archetype from a story you happen to have read. We have every reason to think you mean "a great deal like the real Imperial China, the one that existed in reality."

Which is not an accurate comparison to draw to the Hijvin Sphere, and it's a problem if you act as though that IS an accurate comparison.

When I mentioned Imperial China I was talking about the relationship China and it's neighbors had with the Chinese Emperors that in science fiction is shaped into some sort of technology that is used for population control.
Chinese emperors did not have mind control nanites. What are you talking about?

Also the Klingons are Star Trek's version of Russia which is an Eastern European/North Asian country.
This is not accurate in the sense that I was trying to explain.

The Klingons in Star Trek are not meant to be seen as being just like the Russians in reality. This is particularly true if we look at Star Trek as a complete work, not just the original series from the 1960s. No one is meant to see the character of Worf as being essentially 'Russian.' Klingon culture is not meant to be a commentary on Russian culture, or any real culture.

Now, the Klingons play a role in Star Trek that is similar to the role that the show's creators imagined Russians playing in their own country's historical narrative. They appear first as frightening strategic rivals, then as a troubled nation that could be either partner or opponent depending on the situation... Which is pretty much how Americans saw Russians from the 1960s up through the 1990s.

But that is not the same as saying "the Klingons are Space Russia," which would imply that real Russians behave more or less the way fictional Klingons do. Real Russians do not hold duels with knives to settle points of honor like "who gets to rule Russia," for example.

Similarly, saying "the Hijvin Sphere is Space Imperial China" implies that you believe that Imperial China actually was some kind of horrifying global threat in which a vast population was enslaved and turned into puppets by some kind of mind control. Which is not true.

That may not have been the message you intended to send, but it's the message you actually sent, by trying to encode a complicated, nuanced idea in a handful of words.

...

This is a common problem with your writing. Like me, you often write very long, detailed posts. But you have a tendency to take complicated ideas, ideas that deserve a lot of detailed explanation, and give them a very short name. And then you just drop the name into the conversation as if everyone already knew what you meant. Except that the process by which you choose these names does not involve you asking yourself "would other people actually read this name and accurately understand my intentions?"

As a result, your short names for ideas do not clarify your intentions to others. They only confuse others.

If you mean to say "an empire based on mind control," for instance, you could simply say "Mind Control Empire" instead of "Space Imperial China." Use the literal words, not a clever phrase that encodes meaning in your own ideas about how fiction is interpreted, because the pool of fiction you work from is often... idiosyncratic.

Using more literal, plainer speech would avoid much confusion.

Edit: Other than mistaking me for German a good point. I'll see what I can do about writing more like a native.
My advice is to simply follow the rules of standard English grammar.

The word at the beginning of any sentence is capitalized.

"Proper nouns" are capitalized.

Nothing else is ever capitalized.

Just remember it that way. There are valid ways to make exceptions to the rules and still be understood clearly. But to make exceptions to the rules at the most useful times, to know when to make exceptions, is something that's going to require more practice.

...

"Proper nouns" are, to be clear, words that refer to a specific person, place, institution, or other thing. Not to an abstract concept or a generality, and especially not to some abstract concept or generality that you made up yourself at a party fifteen years ago and that no one else has never heard of.

In the sentence "Today, Amanda went to Earth to board the Adamant," we capitalize 'today' because that is the first word in the sentence; it would not be capitalized otherwise. We capitalize 'Amanda' because that is the name of a specific individual (fictional) person. We capitalize 'Earth' because Earth is a location, a specific place. We capitalize 'Adamant' because that is the name of a specific individual ship.

By contrast, if we did not know Amanda's name, or what planet she was traveling to, or the name of the ship, we would say:

"The woman went to a planet to board a ship."

We would not say "The Woman went to a Planet to board a Ship."
 
Aaaand the discussion on proper use of English can please go to DMs.

I understand where it is coming from, but it's not relevant to this thread.
 
Edit: Other than mistaking me for German a good point. I'll see what I can do about writing more like a native.
I didn't mistake you for German. I know you're Serbian. I just didn't know that the Serbian language had the same rules. :p I was just using German as an example of a language with different capitalization.

Capitalization of words like 'Ascend' and 'Lifeform' in this context doesn't even fit the role of capitalization you're describing (capitalization for emphasis).
Capitalization of Ascend here DOES fit the way I was describing it. It takes a normal word ("to rise upward") and turns it into a reference to a specific contextual idea ("to become a higher kind of being").

EDIT:
Aaaand the discussion on proper use of English can please go to DMs.

I understand where it is coming from, but it's not relevant to this thread.
Ack, didn't see this before I posted!
 
What's the range on what counts as Hjivin soul once their Second Secret madness is counted? Did it hit any of their infectees?

It's hard to tell. A good number of those infected who died are suspected to have done so because the infections went so deep that there was just no coming back. Finding the line between that and dead because of Hjivin soul is...difficult.
 
[x] Contact Fleets were diplomats as much as anything else, but were any of their number ever as skilled as you? What might happen if you simply ask?

Maybe the Hjivin were doing their enslave-everyone shtick out of paranoia? There is a thin thread of possibility that they are, like the current Shiplords, simply afraid and set in their ways rather than Totally Evil, believing what they're doing to be a lesser evil.

That said, if so, there had better be Surprise Space Slaanesh behind such actions.
 
By the way, wasn't Second Secret the FTL drive? It's been a while...
Nah, that's the First Secret.

The Second Secret is biology. Evangelion-level bullshit biology, including a certain amount of meta-mystical "ability to create life" that apparently even extends to truly 'alive' artificial intelligences.

While we're at it...

The Third Secret is electromagnetism and god-tier heat manipulation.

The Fourth Secret is we dunno, we never found it ( @Snowfire , do we know of anyone who does know it? Like, not that they told us what it is, but do we know of anyone who knows it, aside from presumably the Shiplords?)

The Fifth Secret is gravitic control, good for antiship weaponry and sublight propulsion.

The Sixth Secret is super-nanotechnology, permitting us to build pretty much anything (except 'true' life; we can't mimic Second Secret creations with the Sixth Secret fully, only partly).

We have it on good authority that there are Seventh and Eighth Secrets, too.
 
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Is the Second Secret really biology, or is it like soul manipulation?
Humanity hasn't had a whole lot of opportunity to investigate the answer to that, out of fear of reprisal for violating the directives.

But if you're right, that would explain why it's so verboten while the Sixth Secret -- which is capable of similar kinds of terrifying feats -- is not.
 
One interesting thing to remember is that the Second Secret allowed humanity to create sapient space dragons, who willingly sacrificed the entirety of their beings to grant humanity the gift that would eventually become Practice. So, there's a distinct possibility the Second Secret can encompass a LOT more than we think.
 
@Silverking

Things like that are why I tend to describe the biology enabled by the Second Secret as being less 'super-biology' the way the Sixth is 'super-nanotech,' and more being a case of "Evangelion-level bullshit."

Because causing a whole sentient species to merge into Tang, or creating weird demigods with quasi-magical deflector shields, or whatever the fuck... that kind of thing sounds like it's broadly within the Second Secret's wheelhouse, more or less.

[Although we have every reason to think that ascending to become Uninvolved CAN be done without the Second Secret, since the Shiplords forbid Second Secret research and yet everybody and their dog seems to go Uninvolved eventually]

Is the Second Secret really biology, or is it like soul manipulation?
From the sound of it, both.

On the one hand, it lets you do things like "create a new intelligent species" that in this universe cannot be done if you don't have some ability to Do Things involving the soul.

On the other hand, it lets you do things like "build exotic terraforming apparatus" that probably don't involve creating ensouled life.

Humanity hasn't had a whole lot of opportunity to investigate the answer to that, out of fear of reprisal for violating the directives.

But if you're right, that would explain why it's so verboten while the Sixth Secret -- which is capable of similar kinds of terrifying feats -- is not.
I think what it comes down to is that yes, the Second Secret is capable of creating ensouled life- it exists at the junction between biology and soul manipulation.

The Sixth Secret can create forms of pseudo-life, such as von Neumann machines. The gigantic nanomass we found to have been associated with the downfall of the first star system we visited (I forget the name) seems to have been purely a Sixth Secret construct, and it acted in many ways analogous to a lifeform.

On the other hand, our best attempts, even with Practice, to replicate using Sixth Secret nanotech what Shiplord repair goo does using the Second Secret* is... well, we got something that works comparably but not as well. Because with the Second Secret,* you can get the goo to act like a self-aware** repair mechanism.

...

Note that Iris, a purely synthetic construct born of Practice, from an AI we made in a lab who eventually acquired a body made out of Sixth Secret nanotech, has a soul- a human soul. But she was born of Practice, and Practice routinely violates the rules of what you can do without the appropriate Secret. Humanity was making gravitic weapons and drives before we cracked the Fifth Secret to do it the 'proper' way, for example; it's just that we needed Practice users aboard the ships to keep them running.



*(and also Shiplord mass slaughter of living beings to turn them into the goo ( O_O ) )
**(horrifyingly)
 
One thing to ponder is if all the Secrets can create life. Baughn (who's helped inform Snowie) has speculated about early-Big-Bang gravitic lifeforms, so it's not too absurd.

The First Secret... I've got nothing.

The Second Secret is biology, which pretty naturally lends itself to the creation of ensouled lifeforms. It may more accurately be described as biology based on electromagnetic interactions between "ordinary" particles (protons, electrons, neutrons, etc).

The Third Secret is electromagnetism, and biology is merely applied electromagnetism. I'm not kidding: we're made of molecules which interact primarily by the electromagnetic force. EM-based life in the absence of "normal" matter isn't exactly known of, but this is speculative sci-fi anyways, and it has at least some resemblance to organic and AI lifeforms.

The Fourth Secret is "iunno", so I dunno.

The Fifth is gravitic control, which has had some speculation in sci-fi: both a combination of early Big Bang lifeforms, and possibly dark matter-based life.

The Sixth is Nanomachines Son, and Iris is evidence for Sixth Secret-based life.

Any further secrets also fall into "iunno", so I dunno.

EDIT: To be clear, this is very much "infinite monkeys" style speculation, so there is a pretty good chance I'm wrong.
 
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One thing to ponder is if all the Secrets can create life. Baughn (who's helped inform Snowie) has speculated about early-Big-Bang gravitic lifeforms, so it's not too absurd.

The First Secret... I've got nothing.

The Second Secret is biology, which pretty naturally lends itself to the creation of ensouled lifeforms. It may more accurately be described as biology based on electromagnetic interactions between "ordinary" particles (protons, electrons, neutrons, etc).

The Third Secret is electromagnetism, and biology is merely applied electromagnetism. I'm not kidding: we're made of molecules which interact primarily by the electromagnetic force. EM-based life in the absence of "normal" matter isn't exactly known of, but this is speculative sci-fi anyways, and it has at least some resemblance to organic and AI lifeforms.

The Fourth Secret is "iunno", so I dunno.

The Fifth is gravitic control, which has had some speculation in sci-fi: both a combination of early Big Bang lifeforms, and possibly dark matter-based life.

The Sixth is Nanomachines Son, and Iris is evidence for Sixth Secret-based life.

Any further secrets also fall into "iunno", so I dunno.

EDIT: To be clear, this is very much "infinite monkeys" style speculation, so there is a pretty good chance I'm wrong.
Lots of other civilizations have the Sixth; so far as we know none have used it to create anything much livelier than a planetary nanoforge. Indeed, one of the very very few limitations it clearly DOES have on what it does and does not let you do with raw matter is "create life."

Note that your theories on the Third and Fifth revolve entirely around forms of life never observed in-setting or in real life, as well.

I think that none of these are going to be anywhere near as intimately tied to the nature of life as we know it as the Second, and that if any of the other Secrets are tied to the nature of life not as we know it, it will be the Fourth, Seventh, or Eighth.
 
@Snowfire
The biggest thing I don't understand is how these events lead to the situation today. The Shiplords being hyper-controlling about Secrets, okay, sure (except for the part where the Shiplords abuse the fuck out of the Secrets to do the same kind of horrifying shit to the species they already brutalize repeatedly that the Hjivin did to the Shiplords). The Shiplords slaughtering the vast majority of adults of a species upon first contact, and then coming again barely a generation later to do the same thing again? Making their ships out of the souls/suffering of their victims? The Shiplords applying some kind of insane "survival of the fittest by our arbitrary standards" bullshit to every species they meet as a matter of course?

Furthermore, why would the Shiplords be traumatized by the Uninvolved FINALLY doing what needed to be done and destroying the living abomination that was the Hjivin? Wouldn't they be grateful that it had been done? Or outraged that it had not been done sooner?

Next, the whole theme of "find a better way" just...doesn't fit here. By the time the Shiplords even encountered the Hjivin, it was already too late for things to end in any other way than total war. That kind of scenario is completely and utterly different from the current situation vis-a-vis the Shiplords being complete monsters to damn near everyone in the galaxy without provocation (when there are MANY better options available that would be extremely obvious to even Shiplords), and everyone else in the galaxy wanting to not continue living in terror and being brutalized.

And especially since it seems like the things the Shiplords are so terrified of, the threat they use to justify all of their actions...is the Uninvolved, whom are so passive that the only thing that has ever gotten them to act was the Hjivin nearly turning the entire galaxy into a living nightmare.

And it really should be patently obvious to even the Shiplords that their brutal, needlessly cruel, and very horrifying methods and practices have made the galaxy view the Shiplords much like how the Shiplords view the Hjivin.

Yes, I get that the "survival of the fittest by our arbitrary standards" thing could be construed as a reaction to some of the problems with the war with the Hjivin, but it's blatantly obvious that the Shiplords' methods are extremely wasteful and downright ineffective at achieving such a goal. No one has any War Fleets; everyone's forces are entirely focused on defense. Alliances, experience fighting alongside (and mutually supporting on an operational and strategic basis) other species is rare. Because of the insanely strict prohibition on the Secrets, and the sheer terror (as well as the subversion issues) of being caught breaking those prohibitions, the technological development of the non-Shiplord species is relatively primitive in many ways and would simply not be effectively capable of defending themselves against a peer of the Shiplords. And they all hate the Shiplords so much that they'd probably attack the Shiplords in their hour of need, even if it wouldn't help themselves, out of sheer spite. Spite is a big factor, actually. Because whenever the Shiplords would try to explain WHY they do all the shit that they do, or warn them of a potential danger, a common reaction would probably be like "go fuck yourselves" or "if it's an enemy of yours, it's a potential ally for us".

In essence, the Shiplords have gone about this whole thing in the worst way possible, for all of their supposedly-good intentions. No one knows the dangers, and no one cares, because the Shiplords themselves use all of the Secrets, and they use all of them to brutalize, slaughter, subvert, terrorize, and oppress everyone else, all the time. The entire system is upheld literally through force and terror of that force. The instant that's gone, the Shiplords will have effectively created the very problem they were trying to prevent, except on a far greater scale, but with a MUCH, MUCH more dangerous element thrown in: all of the various species of the galaxy know painfully well that they need to research and exploit the Secrets ASAP to become powerful enough to take on the Shiplords (or whoever replaces them) and win, or else they'll suffer immensely again and again forever.
 
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I think an important part of any response to this is to note that while the Shiplords may have evolved into what they are, doing what they do, "for a reason," a critical part of the 'reason' is that they really, really have their heads up their asses about a lot of things related to their own place in the galaxy.

With that said... I suspect that it would be easier to draw the complete picture if we were more than 35% or so of the way through visiting the five star systems that represent pivotal moments in the Shiplords' history of horrifying fuckery.
 
The Fourth Secret is we dunno, we never found it ( @Snowfire , do we know of anyone who does know it? Like, not that they told us what it is, but do we know of anyone who knows it, aside from presumably the Shiplords?)
Probably the Neras. Beyond that? Nope.

Yes, I get that the "survival of the fittest by our arbitrary standards" thing could be construed as a reaction to some of the problems with the war with the Hjivin, but it's blatantly obvious that the Shiplords' methods are extremely wasteful and downright ineffective at achieving such a goal. No one has any War Fleets; everyone's forces are entirely focused on defense. Alliances, experience fighting alongside (and mutually supporting on an operational and strategic basis) other species is rare. Because of the insanely strict prohibition on the Secrets, and the sheer terror (as well as the subversion issues) of being caught breaking those prohibitions, the technological development of the non-Shiplord species is relatively primitive in many ways and would simply not be effectively capable of defending themselves against a peer of the Shiplords. And they all hate the Shiplords so much that they'd probably attack the Shiplords in their hour of need, even if it wouldn't help themselves, out of sheer spite. Spite is a big factor, actually. Because whenever the Shiplords would try to explain WHY they do all the shit that they do, or warn them of a potential danger, a common reaction would probably be like "go fuck yourselves" or "if it's an enemy of yours, it's a potential ally for us".

I really like a lot of your post, but I'm focusing on this part because it's what I feel I can try to answer best.

So with that that said, it's because it is essentially impossible for the Shiplord to meet a peer power anymore. You know that the Shiplords are somehow capable of detecting a species' first use of Secrets - if this is a specific Secret they monitor or just Secret use in general is unclear. Their immediate response is to send a Tribute Fleet, and they can escalate rather faster than any opponent that lacks something like Practice to cheat their way into evening the odds. There are absolutely parts of the Shiplord gestalt that can see and understand that what they've become is a fucking abomination. That they're coasting on massive societal inertia even deeper into a black hole of repression and horror.

The problem is that they can't see a way out of things that will produce a satisfactory response to "How do we ensure that nothing like the War of the Sphere ever happens again?". The Shiplord were teachers once, you know this now. They tried to guide and teach and protect - and that last part is probably the most poisonous one. You've seen a little of what the Secrets can do in the hands of those who truly understand them, do you really think their destructive potential stops at blowing up stars? And...y'know, I can give a little more than leading statements this time.

Is the Second Secret really biology, or is it like soul manipulation?

It looks like just biology at first. It goes much further than that.

Now take this answer and apply it to all the other Secrets. I'll be here when you stop screaming.
 
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Yeah…Basically if it weren't for the uninvolved this whole place would be competing with 40K in terms of GrimDark and it'd be entirely the Shiplords fault. The Hjivin get to be the Eldar equivalent where they screwed up and dropped the ball, but the Shiplords would be the Imperium of Man in that they create and perpetuate the suffering and horror.
One could argue the Shiplords have nearly done it as is, what with the terrified Uninvolved.
 
Yeah…Basically if it weren't for the uninvolved this whole place would be competing with 40K in terms of GrimDark and it'd be entirely the Shiplords fault. The Hjivin get to be the Eldar equivalent where they screwed up and dropped the ball, but the Shiplords would be the Imperium of Man in that they create and perpetuate the suffering and horror.
One could argue the Shiplords have nearly done it as is, what with the terrified Uninvolved.
I'm fairly sure these "Eldar" were deliberately trying to create Khorne.

So, you know. Not quite. A lot would be justified to prevent that.
 
Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by Snowfire on Jul 13, 2021 at 10:48 AM, finished with 95 posts and 15 votes.

  • [X] Contact Fleets were diplomats as much as anything else, but were any of their number ever as skilled as you? What might happen if you simply ask?
    [x] Write-in: Get the key information as quickly as possible and then try to get the attention of the Uninvolved early.
    [X] Experience
    [X] The Hjivin emissaries will not give you the answers you seek. But might their staff, or the servants below them? Dangerous to act right under the nose of a near-peer, but it just might work.
 
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