The Path Unending (A Cultivation Quest)

I think it's quite likely our schedule is going to get worse after the Deer, not better. After all, by that point we'll have proven we can take on Caretaker missions.
This is a bit disingenuous because we *know* we're not getting serious assignments until we integrate all of our techs and reach Farmer. And we even get to cycle on company time as soon as we find appropriate natural wonders--wonders like, for example, the one we'll probably find in the deer's den.

I'm not saying we won't be given another mission or two in the same vein as the deer, but there's no need to fearmonger an increased Caretaker AP cost that will somehow make DD untenable.

Also, to people who are arguing for faster over better: It's fine to be frustrated with how long this has taken, but don't misconstrue patience on our part for complacence. We want the satisfaction of testing the limits of our crafting (either for narrative reasons or because this is a quest and big numbers make us happy--or maybe even both of these things). That's not the same as purposefully dragging our feet.
 
My perspective is, if people care enough about this Charm already, why skimp out on the finishing lap just to get to see it earlier?
In my case, I've basically stopped caring about this charm because I've been blueballed about it nearly long enough to have created a real-world child. I'd greatly prefer my escapism to move a pace faster than the creation of new life.
This is a bit disingenuous because we *know* we're not getting serious assignments until we integrate all of our techs and reach Farmer.
we """know""" no such thing. Siani(Ves) will get bored eventually about us waffling around and push the plot.
 
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For those planning on building FV by DD'ing after the Deer, I'm not sure this is going to work out that way. The time we're in right now was explcitly granted to us by Ves to take care of things like FV and Fa's axe. We have done a... not stellar job of that. I think it's quite likely our schedule is going to get worse after the Deer, not better. After all, by that point we'll have proven we can take on Caretaker missions.

You know what would help with those missions? A very powerful charm. :wink2:
I don't really buy this argument that Post-Deer KZ is going to be off and doing a whole bunch of Caretaker missions that will do things like require much more actions (if any) than the x3 already locked out.

Siani said:
"Elder Siani shakes his head. "As you are right now, Kong Zhi, you do not meet those standards."
...
"Yes, your techniques," Elder Siani sighs. "You see, Kong Zhi, the first thing I do when I take a new disciple is lead them into the realm of the Farmer. It is not until you are at least two steps into the Farmer's domain that you can truly be of service, and so we work towards that above all. But we cannot do that quite yet because you, Kong Zhi, are not yet a proper Soldier."
...
"Indeed," comes the answer. "You see, a Soldier draws their name from their ability to fight. They forge a core and then integrate techniques capable of drawing from that core to its fullest. The core and the techniques are two parts of the greater whole that make up the Soldier's Step. You can learn other techniques, of course, but you will never truly reach your true potential unless you begin to take advantage of the boons your core gives you."

"And you, Kong Zhi…" Elder Siani shakes his head. "You have three techniques, two integrated, and not one matches the Core of the Forge Eternal. Until you rectify this, you will never be a true Soldier. If you were to attempt the Farmer's Step now, your potential would be shacked for years."
Doing the Deer-fight doesn't suddenly integrate 3 techniques for KZ and have him start the Farmer's Step to make him useful/ready for Caretaker missions.

In-universe; the Deer-Fight is probably one of what will be many training missions KZ will undertake that during his x3 Siani/week period.
Out-of-Universe; the Deer-fight is a medium difficulty side quest that will reward KZ with the things he needs to progress his Steel techniques, i.e. a Steel Wonder (Deer's Lair) & Steel Materials (I guess for Fa axe/KZ personal use stash). Principally because many have noted that doing stuff like finding Wonder's of appropriate anam type seems to be really hard (note that like 5? actions have been used and KZ has found literally zero appropriate Wonders), so it seems like Ves made the mini side-quest to streamline completing a few short term goals.
 
This is a bit disingenuous because we *know* we're not getting serious assignments until we integrate all of our techs and reach Farmer. And we even get to cycle on company time as soon as we find appropriate natural wonders--wonders like, for example, the one we'll probably find in the deer's den.

I'm not saying we won't be given another mission or two in the same vein as the deer, but there's no need to fearmonger an increased Caretaker AP cost that will somehow make DD untenable.
This isn't true.

Ves has confirmed that the time we're in right now is a lull time intended for us to close off ongoing projects. Yes, that includes the Deer. The Deer is part of the lull, and a suspicious milestone for what might be the end of it.

It has also been confirmed that there is serious plot waiting. And no, I don't believe it is gated past us achieving Farmer. Farmer is months away in game. I am quite confident we will be given Caretaker missions sooner than that.
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n-universe; the Deer-Fight is probably one of what will be many training missions KZ will undertake that during his x3 Siani/week period.
Out-of-Universe; the Deer-fight is a medium difficulty side quest that will reward KZ with the things he needs to progress his Steel techniques, i.e. a Steel Wonder (Deer's Lair) & Steel Materials (I guess for Fa axe/KZ personal use stash). Principally because many have noted that doing stuff like finding Wonder's of appropriate anam type seems to be really hard (note that like 5? actions have been used and KZ has found literally zero appropriate Wonders), so it seems like Ves made the mini side-quest to streamline completing a few short term goals. [/quote[

Fwiw, Cteatus and Ves were pretty clear the Deerfight isn't a side quest but main plot.
 
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It has also been confirmed that there is serious plot waiting. And no, I don't believe it is gated past us achieving Farmer. Farmer is months away in game. I am quite confident we will be given Caretaker missions sooner than that.

Whatever is coming next will happen before the end of Farmer certainly. Whether it happens before you start Farmer is sort of on y'all. You know what you need to do to start Farmer.
 
This charm represents our body, it would be a mistake to not make it as good as we can.

[x] The higher the build target, the better. We want to double down.
 
[X] The higher the build target, the better. We want to double down.

We can finish a DD Fractal in 3 weeks, maybe 2 weeks if we really squeeze every non deer/Tourney action into charm crafting.

Regular Fractal would take 1-2 weeks and probably be ready in time for the deer. I just don't think we'll need it for the deer fight tbh.

After we finish Fractal we can set aside 1-2 actions a week on Fa's Axe, 3 actions on wonder search/Hot springs rehab/Cycling techs, and 1-2 actions on non Siani Plot and socials.

If there's big plot stuff happening soon, we'll need all the help we can get and a stronger Fractal is a great force multiplier (probably).
 
Every week there's something different to devote actions to like crafting competitions and people breaking into our house and then uh oh we've been ignoring Teng Lim/Jai Shouxi/Bihai/Sun Yijun and then Geng comes along to ruin the day etc. ad nauseum.

In a perfect world I'd absolutely go with DD because I like having the perfect build that fits in every way (narrative, minmax, etc). However there's always an opportunity cost here. I don't want to fail the first Caretakers mission we committed to (which we had the option to turn down) and I do want to see KZ progress in other ways (Plume, Shadow, actually getting to use AFV, exploring the limits of Shatter and SEG, etc). All of that getting delayed in favour of this one aspect of the story seems....not fun to read. IRL it'll take at least a month if not more to get AFV to a useable state if we DD. I'd rather see other storylines progress.

[X] Faster is better. We want to infuse immediately.
 
Except that's just the thing!!!

Our Side sees the finish line and are happy that we'll be done soon, then y'all say "That's not enough! We should do all the laps over again! Because then it will feel more satisfying!"

I don't agree! And the simple thing is, pushing completion out further is actively KILLING MY INVESTMENT in this charm CT. Do you get that? I'm getting to the point where I don't even care.

I'm TIRED of putting other things aside for this thing and don't want to double the amount of time spent on this charm. Is that so hard to understand?
Look man, I understand where you're coming from, and why you're fired up in this post. I'm not gonna say that your viewpoint is wrong or anything, because it comes from your own emotions and those are always valid.

That being said, please understand my perspective as well. I try to keep it from leaking into my words, but to me, DD'ing on this charm is important for my investment in this quest just like you. I just tried to hold that back because I thought that if I kept things from descending to emotion vs emotion arguments, things would stay that way, but clearly I'm just naive.

Very well then. Here it is.

If Kong Zhi can spend the extra effort to go all out on some wagon timbers and Vestige teeth, but can't be assed to put the extra effort for the crowning jewel of a literal civilization and something his father gave to him, knowing that he would be increasing the chance that he would die and leave the rest of the Kong family behind in the process, than Zhi is not the character that I thought he was.

I thought Zhi was the sort of guy, unlike in a lot of other stories which involve a noble family which classically tend to have a rebellion arc, that actually cared about his family, to the sort of extent that would make otherwise crazy or even irrational decisions possible, just for their sake. I loved when Zhi talked about his memories of his father teaching him clothworking, and when he spoke with pride about his father who was the greatest artisan he knew.

That's why, way back in the Duel (we fought on the same side, remember?), I voted to take the offer. I thought that the fact that this would benefit the Clan was something that Zhi would care about to the point that he'd make that decision. Ofc that's not the actual motivation we chose for Zhi, but that was my mental state back then. And I still defended that decision, even after onlookers came in and posted, calling Zhi a traitor, a horrible person, and all sorts of other things after the fact. Do you remember?

So please believe me when I say, while I understand you're fired up about this, I'm just as fired up as well. This is something that I see as central to Zhi.

When I said to you that I would stay up the night if I had to, I wasn't lying.

This isn't an argument that will convince you, probably, because emotional arguments never do, but hopefully I managed to convey some of my feelings across.

If this came off as insulting at any point, I genuinely apologize. Emotional arguments tend to do that by accident a whole lot, which is why I try to sparingly use them.
 
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Except that's just the thing!!!

Our Side sees the finish line and are happy that we'll be done soon, then y'all say "That's not enough! We should do all the laps over again! Because then it will feel more satisfying!"

I don't agree! And the simple thing is, pushing completion out further is actively KILLING MY INVESTMENT in this charm CT. Do you get that? I'm getting to the point where I don't even care.

I'm TIRED of putting other things aside for this thing and don't want to double the amount of time spent on this charm. Is that so hard to understand?


Okay, what about the simple fact that

Me, and alot of other people, don't WANT to drop everything for the next 2-3 in game weeks to craft when we could have finished it as part of next week and gone on to our various other shelved things. I want to make other shit, finish learning techs, go out and do fun adventure shit!

It's especially frustrating in my case because, I didn't WANT to Start FV when we did, I wanted to do Fa's Axe first but people wanted to kill the deer and FV squeezed it's way into the plan.

-Edit-

TLDR; This is a game I'm participating in to have fun. All this delay around FV is making it not fun for me. I want it done and over with already so we can go on to fun things again.


Just going to say the use of exclamation marks and appealing to pathos here is not going to win you any favors in the thread Knight. While pathos is convincing in talks it loses quite a bit of punch in thread based arguments like this where people have to sit down and think about what they write and what they post. It comes off childish, at least to me. I get you're annoyed, i am too. I didn't want to start FV either but it got hard shoved then forgotten about, as is S.O.P. for the thread. We're going to be wholly unready for the plot kicking off once the deer is dead even assuming we make it that far because we've been dallying about and not focused. I even said as much when FV was getting pushed, that'd it be a huge time sink that we'd have to 100% commit too to get anything out of. That said now our only real play is going to be to focus it down and pray it alone can make up the difference, because the extra six odd actions won't be enough to make a good weapon for fa with our abyssmal weapons crafting, and we will get maybe 2 wonders out of searching, which is highly unlikely to even be the ones we need. Even then we'd still be far far far short of our goal, all because we got greedy again and took on more tasks than we should have. I understand the frustration but we've bound our own hands, and made our own bed, so now we lie in it.
 
Those six actions could be used to find new Wonders or heck, build a whole new Charm. :(
Yes, which could end up in a dud wonder (already occupied or anam type isn't compatible) or a charm that doesn't have the benefit that the increase from regular FV to DD FV gives us! We don't know either way. So just going with my gut on DD FV being worth the extra effort and hassle.

If it means anything to the other side, I'm 100% voting for a 3 action on Fractal plan this week.
 
If Kong Zhi can spend the extra effort to go all out on some wagon timbers and Vestige teeth, but can't be assed to put the extra effort for the crowning jewel of a literal civilization and something his father gave to him, knowing that he would be increasing the chance that he would die and leave the rest of the Kong family behind in the process, than Zhi is not the character that I thought he was.

How do you define effort? By actions spent or by the required amount of successes? Or by DD no matter how many successes or actions needed. Because finishing Fractal regularly requires more successes than we needed to DD the Box.
 
I can't recall if Deer-fight was 'main plot' or not? I mean, there was a vote on whether or not to do it, it's not really mainplot if by vote it can be declined.

This is what we know about the upcoming plot:
  • Siani explicitly wants KZ to 2nd phase-Farmer ASAP.
  • Geng Tu is now has KZ in his crosshairs, and is probably feeling pretty vengeful -- Directly KZ related
  • Best girl Jin Nuan is coming to the sect and has KZ in her crosshairs, and is probably feeling pretty vengeful -- Directly KZ related
  • There is a 'Tournament of the Seven Stars' to be held soonish -- Probably not KZ related, but maybe he gets selected to go compete in the scrub division?
  • The Emperor is dispatching a ton of newly trained Imperial Testers to the outer reaches, the seven sects must have teams of 3 disciples for each tester. -- Probably not KZ related, this is also literally happening this week/next week
 
How do you define effort? By actions spent or by the required amount of successes? Or by DD no matter how many successes or actions needed. Because finishing Fractal regularly requires more successes than we needed to DD the Box.
I define effort by the content of said effort.

Like I noted earlier, what DD is in story is Zhi going over a Charm with a fine-toothed comb in order to get rid of imperfections, reaching closer to that impossible goal. He sands down rough places, he adds more runes where there could be more, he carves engravings even more finely than before.

It's that sort of painstaking double-checking that I care about. If this took 50% more build successes or 150% more, it wouldn't matter, that's the fundamental essence of what actually matters about DD to me.

In a lot of cases, the Charm isn't worth the DD, and I totally agree with the idea that we need to chill on DDs in the future. But in this particular case, given the meaning of ALT, I think it absolutely is.
 
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[x] Faster is better. We want to infuse immediately.

Spending more time on Fractal View will definitely make it stronger, but that's also a lot of time Zhi could spend getting stronger in other ways, be it improving techs, discovering wonders, or crafting even more charms, like a laser eye patch. Making a single really great thing is great, but making one great thing and then two other cool things is still better.
 
I can't recall if Deer-fight was 'main plot' or not? I mean, there was a vote on whether or not to do it, it's not really mainplot if by vote it can be declined.

This is what we know about the upcoming plot:
  • Siani explicitly wants KZ to 2nd phase-Farmer ASAP.
  • Geng Tu is now has KZ in his crosshairs, and is probably feeling pretty vengeful -- Directly KZ related
  • Best girl Jin Nuan is coming to the sect and has KZ in her crosshairs, and is probably feeling pretty vengeful -- Directly KZ related
  • There is a 'Tournament of the Seven Stars' to be held soonish -- Probably not KZ related, but maybe he gets selected to go compete in the scrub division?
  • The Emperor is dispatching a ton of newly trained Imperial Testers to the outer reaches, the seven sects must have teams of 3 disciples for each tester. -- Probably not KZ related, this is also literally happening this week/next week
Nah the deer isn't main plot. It's just a tool that Ves used to give Zhi a Steel wonder and Steel mats at the end.
Ideally some of the mats should be used for pills that double the effect of cycling Steel to minimize the amount of time needed to integrate Shadow of the Prince.

I'd say the imperial testing plot could be part of the main plot. While KZ wouldn't be the one to send in the first batch, he's someone the sect can send if something happens to a group or two, especially if the resources are stretched.
 
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