The Path Unending (A Cultivation Quest)

I know I've already stated this but I really don't trust folks not to stop making new charms in favour of upgrading the View.

I don't think you should be afraid of Zhi not making any charms anymore per se.

It's unlikely that many of the materials (opposite, in fact) will be compatible with the Fractal. Some will not be powerful enough, some will not be of the right type/nature.

However, there is a chance that there will be a dilemma in future about a hypothetical powerful and compatible material, and what's the best use for it.

However, that is an old dilemma.

Should we take the mat or give it over to an ally? Should we sell the mat or use it for crafting?
If we we use it for crafting, what kind of charm should it be? Etc etc.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Knight-Radiant on Feb 7, 2021 at 3:05 PM, finished with 270 posts and 127 votes.
 
I'm not a fan of the Forge because it's far, far too slow. It uses five materials adding up to 71 anam, so it'll take forever to build, and even after that it won't solve our limb problem (which is what we're supposed to be making a charm to solve!) for a very long time.

I also personally don't find it interesting, but that's just my opinion.
 
It uses five materials adding up to 71 anam, so it'll take forever to build
Not really. It takes roughly just as long to build as the other Charms. (For example, Jewelcrafting 7, +51 mats for Heart of Kong, Metalworking (effective) 10, +71 mats for Forge of Idealization. I won't give exact calculations since then I'd be accused of bringing mechanics into this, but from that the generals can be seen.)

The only reason I'm even bringing this much up is in case if anyone thinks that's a valid concern, by the way. I wouldn't bring dice into this otherwise.
I also personally don't find it interesting, but that's just my opinion.
And of course, you absolutely have the right to hold that opinion. I personally think it is interesting, but people differ.
 
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I'm not a fan of the Forge because it's far, far too slow. It uses five materials adding up to 71 anam, so it'll take forever to build, and even after that it won't solve our limb problem (which is what we're supposed to be making a charm to solve!) for a very long time.

I also personally don't find it interesting, but that's just my opinion.

Strongly agreed. Several things here. The Heart rewards us for doing what we were planning to do anyway: integrating techniques. It also acts as an additional incentive to get more techniques. That's great, because as we've seen, techniques are really really awesome! Fractal is in second place in my opinion, because it will eat our resources, but has really interesting aesthetics. The Forge on the other hand is really slow, and also is literally a coffin. That's the least interesting of these options.
 
Counterpoint: the Farmer's Step is a slow and difficult process that can take decades to complete and many disciples might literally kill for such an item were it not for sect rules.
 
Not really. It takes roughly just as long to build as the other Charms. (For example, Jewelcrafting 7, +51 mats for Heart of Kong, Metalworking (effective) 10, +71 mats for Forge of Idealization. I won't give exact calculations since then I'd be accused of bringing mechanics into this, but from that the generals can be seen.)

The only reason I'm even bringing this much up is in case if anyone thinks that's a valid concern, by the way. I wouldn't bring dice into this otherwise.

And of course, you absolutely have the right to hold that opinion. I personally think it is interesting, but people differ.

Where does the 10 metalworking come from? and how does 3 more dice per roll equal 20 more successes needed total? The Heart/Fractal Build faster, and have immediate effects sooner than the Forge, which still leaves us horribly mutated and unable to craft properly or walk for some time after it's finished.
 
Counterpoint: the Farmer's Step is a slow and difficult process that can take decades to complete and many disciples might literally kill for such an item were it not for sect rules.

I mean, yeah, sure. But let's be real here. Disciples would kill for any of these charms. The power level and growth potential are both huge. The question isn't whether the options are cool, as they definitely are. The question is which one is the coolest. And in my opinion, Heart and Fractal have the most interesting aesthetics and advancement potential.
 
Strongly agreed. Several things here. The Heart rewards us for doing what we were planning to do anyway: integrating techniques. It also acts as an additional incentive to get more techniques. That's great, because as we've seen, techniques are really really awesome! Fractal is in second place in my opinion, because it will eat our resources, but has really interesting aesthetics. The Forge on the other hand is really slow, and also is literally a coffin. That's the least interesting of these options.
I would argue that the Forge also acts as an incentive to integrate techniques. Technique integration seems to be intrinsically linked to channel carving. Here's Auntie Bi's description of channel-carving:
You grow stronger with each channel carved; faster, wiser, even further beyond what you once thought possible."
Sounds a lot like the effects of technique integration, don't you think?

Combined with the fact that Siani said that we should integrate techniques related to our Core before forging our first channel, and it seems that the first is a requirement for the second. (That is to say, you need to integrate a Steel technique to make a Steel channel, a Smoke technique to make a Smoke channel, etc.)

Honestly, the implications are really interesting, especially when you bring up the fact that techniques appear to be able to be scaled up in effect later in your cultivation. I suspect that has something to do with channels too. Now I'm digressing, though, so I'll end it here.
 
[X] The Heart of Kong
[X] The Forge of Idealization
[X] Spymaster's Pride
[X] Chrysalis of the Polestar
 
Not really. It takes roughly just as long to build as the other Charms. (For example, Jewelcrafting 7, +51 mats for Heart of Kong, Metalworking (effective) 10, +71 mats for Forge of Idealization. I won't give exact calculations since then I'd be accused of bringing mechanics into this, but from that the generals can be seen.)

The only reason I'm even bringing this much up is in case if anyone thinks that's a valid concern, by the way. I wouldn't bring dice into this otherwise.

And of course, you absolutely have the right to hold that opinion. I personally think it is interesting, but people differ.
I would not advise using Chui Dao for this charm. Consider that, with poor luck, it may entirely replace the Life aspect, which is rather critical.

So, Metalworking 0.
 
Counterpoint: the Farmer's Step is a slow and difficult process that can take decades to complete and many disciples might literally kill for such an item were it not for sect rules.
And Techniques are a core aspect of cultivation across all steps and levels, from servant to Warlord and beyond. The Heart enhances the integration of techniques so I would put the long term benefits of the Heart above the Forge.
 
I would argue that the Forge also acts as an incentive to integrate techniques. Technique integration seems to be intrinsically linked to channel carving. Here's Auntie Bi's description of channel-carving:

Sounds a lot like the effects of technique integration, don't you think?

Combined with the fact that Siani said that we should integrate techniques related to our Core before forging our first channel, and it seems that the first is a requirement for the second. (That is to say, you need to integrate a Steel technique to make a Steel channel, a Smoke technique to make a Smoke channel, etc.)

Honestly, the implications are really interesting, especially when you bring up the fact that techniques appear to be able to be scaled up later in your cultivation. I suspect that has something to do with channels too. Now I'm digressing, though, so I'll end it here.

It's possible that you're right. It's also possible that you're dead wrong. This entire chain of logic is extremely speculative. We really have no clue how channel cultivation is going to work, other than that it's important to integrate techniques of each of our anam types first. On the other hand, the Heart is definitely going to get us rewards for techniques, no matter what. It's also going to reward technique cultivation directly, rather than after a second step that will take an indefinite amount of time.
 
and even after that it won't solve our limb problem (which is what we're supposed to be making a charm to solve!) for a very long time.
On this note, in the interest of tempering expectations, I don't think we can assume the Heart rapidly fixed that either.

Ves notes a combat morph, and an "over time" effect that happens as we integrate techs. If the latter is what's fixing us, that's also gonna take serious time.


As was kinda signposted in the immediate aftermath of the injury, it seems like there's gonna be a long road to walk no matter what.
 
I agree that the Forge is the less useful in the shortest term. But I am a sucker for the trope of there being secret/going beyond the norm ways to exceed in cultivation stages. Also I have problems with both of the other leaders as well. The large anam cost of the heart's combat form limits our technique use which is the best part of cultivation combat, and the Fracture Identity is vague in what it offers.
 
I would not advise using Chui Dao for this charm. Consider that, with poor luck, it may entirely replace the Life aspect, which is rather critical.

So, Metalworking 0.
The Life-aspect serves primarily to augment the 42 points of Blood further. It is helpful, but not necessarily essential.

More to the point, OOC Ves wants this Charm to not get delayed any longer, and this desire of his is very strong. This implies that any of the seven Charms would be something that we could start on immediately.
Where does the 10 metalworking come from? and how does 3 more dice per roll equal 20 more successes needed total? The Heart/Fractal Build faster, and have immediate effects sooner than the Forge, which still leaves us horribly mutated and unable to craft properly or walk for some time after it's finished.
Very well, I was holding out on the exact math for the sake of no one calling me out for using mechanics, but I have been openly asked here. This goes to everyone who's reading this: Please don't attack me for doing this. I care about the narrative implications of the Forge too, and just because I listed out the crafting calcs doesn't mean I'm a cold, unfeeling person who only cares about numbers.

With all of the disclaimers given, let's begin.

Our Physical Talent is 3, meaning on a roll of 1 to 10, 7 8 9 and 10 are successes. After factoring in the math for exploding 10s and 1s dropping successes, this evens out to 1 success every three dice. Our Drive while crafting is 1.5. We have a 25% malus to all DEX-based skills which includes Crafting based skills. Our Jewelcrafting is 7.

For Jewelcrafting, a single action looks like this. 4*0.75*(7)*(1/3)*1.5 = 10.5 successes on average.

One important thing to note is that Chui Dao works independently from Zhi's Drive and his malus. He is not boosted by *1.5 or deducted by *0.75. Metalworking 0, by the way, means we have an average of 0 successes per action without Chui Dao.

For Metalworking, a single action looks like this. 4*0.75*1*(0) + 20 = 20.

I'm sorry, but you asked for this.

For the sake of completion, I'll give the last statement. Taking into account Craft Charm raising the BT by +10, Heart of Kong would have the build section complete in 6 build actions. Forge of Idealization will be finished in 4 actions.

As an endnote, I will say it again. I don't care that Forge will be finished in two less actions. It could take two more actions and I'd still vote for it. However, since the argument in question said that it would be completed slowly and questioned the math behind my statement, this was needed in order to protect my word.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by ShyGuy on Feb 7, 2021 at 3:46 PM, finished with 289 posts and 130 votes.
 
I agree that the Forge is the less useful in the shortest term. But I am a sucker for the trope of there being secret/going beyond the norm ways to exceed in cultivation stages. Also I have problems with both of the other leaders as well. The large anam cost of the heart's combat form limits our technique use which is the best part of cultivation combat, and the Fracture Identity is vague in what it offers.

Yeah, I'm agreed that the combat form isn't a good option. On the other hand, passive boosts are great! If we go with Heart, we should ignore the combat form most of the time and just stick with the awesome passive boosts.

The Life-aspect serves primarily to augment the 42 points of Blood further. It is helpful, but not necessarily essential.

More to the point, OOC Ves wants this Charm to not get delayed any longer, and this desire of his is very strong. This implies that any of the seven Charms would be something that we could start on immediately.

Very well, I was holding out on the exact math for the sake of no one calling me out for using mechanics, but I have been openly asked here. This goes to everyone who's reading this: Please don't attack me for doing this. I care about the narrative implications of the Forge too, and just because I listed out the crafting calcs doesn't mean I'm a cold, unfeeling person who only cares about numbers.

With all of the disclaimers given, let's begin.

Our Physical Talent is 3, meaning on a roll of 1 to 10, 7 8 9 and 10 are successes. After factoring in the math for exploding 10s and 1s dropping successes, this evens out to 1 success every three dice. Our Drive while crafting is 1.5. We have a 25% malus to all DEX-based skills which includes Crafting based skills. Our Jewelcrafting is 7.

For Jewelcrafting, a single action looks like this. 4*0.75*(7)*(1/3)*1.5 = 10.5 successes on average.

One important thing to note is that Chui Dao works independently from Zhi's Drive and his malus. He is not boosted by *1.5 or deducted by *0.75. Metalworking 0, by the way, means we have an average of 0 successes per action with Chui Dao.

For Metalworking, a single action looks like this. 4*0.75*1*(0) + 20 = 20.

I'm sorry, but you asked for this.

For the sake of completion, I'll give the last statement. Taking into account Craft Charm raising the BT by +10, Heart of Kong would have the build section complete in 6 build actions. Forge of Idealization will be finished in 4 actions.

As an endnote, I will say it again. I don't care that Forge will be finished in two less actions. It could take two more actions and I'd still vote for it. However, since the argument in question said that it would be completed slowly and questioned the math behind my statement, this was needed in order to protect my word.

I'll again repeat, and this is aimed at everyone, not Reader specifically, that construction speed matters the least of all of the things in this situation. Getting a cool charm we'll happiest with is much more important.
 
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I won't lie. My biggest reason for not wanting us to go with the sarcophagus is that I don't want Kong Zhi to enter his goth vampire-wannabe phase
 
The Life-aspect serves primarily to augment the 42 points of Blood further. It is helpful, but not necessarily essential.

More to the point, OOC Ves wants this Charm to not get delayed any longer, and this desire of his is very strong. This implies that any of the seven Charms would be something that we could start on immediately.

Very well, I was holding out on the exact math for the sake of no one calling me out for using mechanics, but I have been openly asked here. This goes to everyone who's reading this: Please don't attack me for doing this. I care about the narrative implications of the Forge too, and just because I listed out the crafting calcs doesn't mean I'm a cold, unfeeling person who only cares about numbers.

With all of the disclaimers given, let's begin.

Our Physical Talent is 3, meaning on a roll of 1 to 10, 7 8 9 and 10 are successes. After factoring in the math for exploding 10s and 1s dropping successes, this evens out to 1 success every three dice. Our Drive while crafting is 1.5. We have a 25% malus to all DEX-based skills which includes Crafting based skills. Our Jewelcrafting is 7.

For Jewelcrafting, a single action looks like this. 4*0.75*(7)*(1/3)*1.5 = 10.5 successes on average.

One important thing to note is that Chui Dao works independently from Zhi's Drive and his malus. He is not boosted by *1.5 or deducted by *0.75. Metalworking 0, by the way, means we have an average of 0 successes per action with Chui Dao.

For Metalworking, a single action looks like this. 4*0.75*1*(0) + 20 = 20.

I'm sorry, but you asked for this.

For the sake of completion, I'll give the last statement. Taking into account Craft Charm raising the BT by +10, Heart of Kong would have the build section complete in 6 build actions. Forge of Idealization will be finished in 4 actions.

As an endnote, I will say it again. I don't care that Forge will be finished in two less actions. It could take two more actions and I'd still vote for it. However, since the argument in question said that it would be completed slowly and questioned the math behind my statement, this was needed in order to protect my word.
Fair enough. That still doesn't address that the Forge won't actually help us with our limbs until we're already most of the way to Farmer.

It's also narratively odd for Kong Zhi, whose chosen medium is jewelrycrafting, to be sent a valuable jewel by his family because they know his chosen medium is jewelrycrafting, and to then use the jewel to build something that has nothing to do with jewelry.
 
Ok, so you're assuming that we will use Chui Dao for the entire charm (previous charms have had a combination of skills, for one of this size I'd expect it) and that more importantly we risk using him in the first place on this charm - when Chui Dao completely replacing or shrinking the Life and Force aman such that the charm could not function as designed is probable. There's only 6 life and 3.5ish force, either of those could be fully consumed, or even proportions changed such that they have little to no influence over the charm.
 
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