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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Olivebirdy said:
    Old Cannibal is not going to kill Manuel with an investigation into a city that's clearly suspicious. That's just not going to happen. We might have a battle, Manuel might be wounded, which may very well make the rest of this war much harder, that's possible. But fights between Nascents happen with battle after battle after battle of subtle fights...
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    That sounds, uh, incredibly overconfident.

    My understanding of xianxia genre conventions isn't exactly stellar, but I think I grasp the basics. Nascent Souls are, invariably, ancient sorceror types with a lot of resources, powers, and typically a lot of weird one-shot shit, often stuff they've been hoarding for centuries to pull out of their hat in an emergency. It is, as I understand it, effectively impossible to become a Nascent Soul without making a multi-century effort to laboriously enhance oneself, perfect one's skills, and so on.

    I am pretty sure that the adage "there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots" applies here.

    So you say, to paraphrase, "Nascent Souls only manage to kill each other with battle after battle of subtle fights."

    Now, color me stupid, but I'm pretty sure that if Nascent Souls usually only manage to kill each other after long, drawn-out campaigns of cat-and-mouse... it's because no one who lives long enough to be a Nascent Soul is reckless enough to walk into an enemy's prepared trap and lay their head down on the chopping block.

    If you're the kind of person who walks into a room, picks up the priceless treasure, then goes "wait, why is it ticking" and stands there dumbfounded while your enemy calms their maniacal giggle and pushes the detonator button, you ain't gonna live long enough to get to this amazing one-inna-hectomillion state of Nascent Soul superpowers.

    ...

    So I'm pretty sure the reason that you almost never hear of a Nascent Soul being killed outright because a peer competitor lured them into a trap placed deep within their territory, then hit them with something overwhelming and carefully prepared, is because if you're still bold enough to do that in the first place, you don't become a Nascent Soul. You get your fool head torn off some time during Core Formation or Foundation Establishment.

    ...

    I'm going to be honest, I'd frankly rather just ignore this hidden impenetrable spy-proof city (who knows, maybe the local Blood Cannibal governor just critted his counterintelligence rolls), rather than either blow a ton of money on scrying the place OR risking Manuel's life to scope it out.

    Has anyone written a plan for that?
     
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    no. said:
    Edit: And I honestly don't like sending Manuel to spy. It reeks of quest voter arrogance: "it's okay, games are supposed to be fun, so there's a hard limit to how much consequence we can ever suffer." But I really want to nab the palace now so I'm forced to go with that vote.
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    As a point, I am perfectly happy to have the quest fail, the Clan be destroyed, and have a specific followup quest in mind (with similar mechanics and continuity with this story) if this were to happen. This isn't arguing for one planor another, though, just a general note.

    Olivebirdy said:
    @occipitallobe, how hard is it in Manuel's opinion, how much of an investment would it take for the Blood Cannibals to ward an area this strongly? Is the Eye working as intended? How dangerous does he think checking out Fu Tong would be?
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    Manuel isn't sure. Warding an area strongly is tough, but if your enemy knows the specific capabilities of what you're using to scry, it's a lot easier. Specific versus general counters, and all that. Personally, his problem is that Old Cannibal has been seemingly trying to lure him into using his Dao to figure stuff out. This might just be a bluff, but he might have some sort of counter that could throw Manuel off for a period of time and give Old Cannibal free reign in information terms. It's why he's currently using it defensively by cloaking the Council and the like. Nascent Soul fights are a lot like poker in some regards.

    Simon_Jester said:
    So I'm pretty sure the reason that you almost never hear of a Nascent Soul being killed outright because a peer competitor lured them into a trap placed deep within their territory, then hit them with something overwhelming and carefully prepared, is because if you're still bold enough to do that in the first place, you don't become a Nascent Soul. You get your fool head torn off some time during Core Formation or Foundation Establishment.
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    This is a significant part of it. The other part is that Nascent Souls tend to accumulate magical treasures that are reliably life-saving oneshots (which are just a xianxia staple) and usually the deadly trap burns a crucial treasure as opposed to actual injuries/crippling/death. Child Corpse Gulper was an example of a Nascent Soul sans both experience and material accumulation. The first killed him, but so did the second. Even if his trap had succeeded perfectly against his two enemies, they would've burnt treasures and gotten away, not died.

    @sirocco those were some transcription errors, I'll fix them up now.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    That sounds, uh, incredibly overconfident.

    My understanding of xianxia genre conventions isn't exactly stellar, but I think I grasp the basics. Nascent Souls are, invariably, ancient sorceror types with a lot of resources, powers, and typically a lot of weird one-shot shit, often stuff they've been hoarding for centuries to pull out of their hat in an emergency. It is, as I understand it, effectively impossible to become a Nascent Soul without making a multi-century effort to laboriously enhance oneself, perfect one's skills, and so on.

    I am pretty sure that the adage "there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots" applies here.

    So you say, to paraphrase, "Nascent Souls only manage to kill each other with battle after battle of subtle fights."

    Now, color me stupid, but I'm pretty sure that if Nascent Souls usually only manage to kill each other after long, drawn-out campaigns of cat-and-mouse... it's because no one who lives long enough to be a Nascent Soul is reckless enough to walk into an enemy's prepared trap and lay their head down on the chopping block.

    If you're the kind of person who walks into a room, picks up the priceless treasure, then goes "wait, why is it ticking" and stands there dumbfounded while your enemy calms their maniacal giggle and pushes the detonator button, you ain't gonna live long enough to get to this amazing one-inna-hectomillion state of Nascent Soul superpowers.

    ...

    So I'm pretty sure the reason that you almost never hear of a Nascent Soul being killed outright because a peer competitor lured them into a trap placed deep within their territory, then hit them with something overwhelming and carefully prepared, is because if you're still bold enough to do that in the first place, you don't become a Nascent Soul. You get your fool head torn off some time during Core Formation or Foundation Establishment.

    ...

    I'm going to be honest, I'd frankly rather just ignore this hidden impenetrable spy-proof city (who knows, maybe the local Blood Cannibal governor just critted his counterintelligence rolls), rather than either blow a ton of money on scrying the place OR risking Manuel's life to scope it out.

    Has anyone written a plan for that?
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    From what I understand, the plan as currently written is that the golden eye stunt will be done first, and if it shows either that it's too dangerous or that it was a bluff, Manuel will default to just fucking with the cannibals in general.
     
    occipitallobe said:
    As a point, I am perfectly happy to have the quest fail, the Clan be destroyed, and have a specific followup quest in mind (with similar mechanics and continuity with this story) if this were to happen. This isn't arguing for one planor another, though, just a general note.



    Manuel isn't sure. Warding an area strongly is tough, but if your enemy knows the specific capabilities of what you're using to scry, it's a lot easier. Specific versus general counters, and all that. Personally, his problem is that Old Cannibal has been seemingly trying to lure him into using his Dao to figure stuff out. This might just be a bluff, but he might have some sort of counter that could throw Manuel off for a period of time. It's why he's currently using it defensively by cloaking the Council and the like.
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    Heads up Occi, but you posted half of your previous post again.
     
    @ReaderOfFate pinging a collaborator since my most recent omake on page 220 wasn't threadmarked. Sorry to bother you.
     
    occipitallobe said:
    Manuel isn't sure. Warding an area strongly is tough, but if your enemy knows the specific capabilities of what you're using to scry, it's a lot easier. Specific versus general counters, and all that. Personally, his problem is that Old Cannibal has been seemingly trying to lure him into using his Dao to figure stuff out. This might just be a bluff, but he might have some sort of counter that could throw Manuel off for a period of time and give Old Cannibal free reign in information terms. It's why he's currently using it defensively by cloaking the Council and the like. Nascent Soul fights are a lot like poker in some regards.
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    I wonder...

    Did the Seven Divine Sabers Palace interfere again? Did they hand some kind of tool or advantage to Old Cannibal; not something to allow him to win or dominate us, but something that would let him feel like he has a chance against us?

    So, in short, they gave him something that would set him on a collision course with the Golden Devil Clan. Well, rather, he was already on a collision course with us; because he was desperate and needed to. What they provided him, was something that they felt would increase the odds of a mutual KO of Old Cannibal and Old Devil.

    Yeah. In fact, I'm just going to blame this latest bullshit on the Seven Divine Sabers.

    I've got no evidence, but. :V Well.

    They fucked with via Child Corpse Gulper. They fucked with us via a deal with the Abyssal Devil Bees. (At least, I remember it was a deal between a Righteous Sect and the Devil Bees. I don't recall if it was the Divine Sabers directly, but I'm sure they deserve the blame anyway!) And they tried to fuck with us via empowering Lady Jingshen, which we stopped in its tracks.

    For a bunch of Righteous Sect Meatheads they sure are good at striking at us from halfway across the continent and past a mountain range, and siccing 2 whole Clans or Sects against one another.

    The Seven Divine Sabers Palace has been phenomenally good at stirring up shit for us to deal with, despite being so damn far away from us.

    I'm just paranoid about anything to do with those fuckers.
     
    You're not wrong to, but that's why I came up with the frame job write in in the first place.

    They really shouldn't have that kind of breathing room handy rn, not with the Demonic War thingie going on
     
    TehChron said:
    They really shouldn't have that kind of breathing room handy rn, not with the Demonic War thingie going on
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    Hmm. Should we be worrying about them doing something to fuck with our relations with the Strength Purity Sect?

    Not at the cost of screwing over the Righteous Sects against the Blood Path of course. But, like, maybe the Divine Sabers Palace deciding "Aw hell naw, the Golden Devil Clan has started making outreach attempts to Righteous Clans? We need to put the kibosh to that. Send out the Diplomats and the briberies! We'll make them have to choose between the Golden Devils and us... and we're going to make sure that 'us' is a choice that everyone will want to make."

    Good for the Righteous Sects if that happens; they get more aid in the war against the Blood Paths. Bad for our endeavors to reach out to the Righteous Sect. Good for us in that it means the Seven Divine Sabers Palace is doing something productive and good, rather than something that might destroy or ruin us.


    Alternatively, maybe it was Jingshen Clan that gave something to Old Cannibal. Figuring that they can have the Cannibals and the Devils bleed each other to bits. And that they can swoop in and get the pieces. ... Or, failing that... maybe they could bribe the Devil Bees to swoop in and finish off the victor. Such as if perhaps they had offered a temporary ceasefire to Old Cannibal on top of whatever gift or monetary backing they gave him to pit him against us; but then if they can play the Devil Bees against the survivor of the Golden Devil-Blood Cannibal war, then they don't have to go back on whatever ceasefire agreement they had with Old Cannibal.


    Anyway! All that is totally just paranoid speculating, based on nothing but suspicious, and from taking the track of: 'Is this some outsiders fucking with us perhaps? If so, who would be doing it, and how?'

    For all I know, the answer could be as simple as: "Old Cannibal has been in contact with somebody over on the Devil Bees side. He has a telephone line to them at Fu Tong -- or maybe a Devil Bee Nascent Soul at Fu Tong! -- and will call them in to double-team the Golden Devils as soon as his own Blood Cannibals start the attack on the Golden Devils."

    I'm just thinking of all the ways that things can go wrong or nasty surprises can get revealed to us. Not necessarily exactly super relevant or productive, but hey -- at least if it happens, I can feel clever for having guessed one of the possibilities beforehand. So that's a minor consolation bonus.
     
    occipitallobe said:
    This is a significant part of it. The other part is that Nascent Souls tend to accumulate magical treasures that are reliably life-saving oneshots (which are just a xianxia staple) and usually the deadly trap burns a crucial treasure as opposed to actual injuries/crippling/death. Child Corpse Gulper was an example of a Nascent Soul sans both experience and material accumulation. The first killed him, but so did the second. Even if his trap had succeeded perfectly against his two enemies, they would've burnt treasures and gotten away, not died.
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    Yeah, but the way I figure it, "lifesaving treasures" are a lot more reliable as one-shot ways to escape disaster if you're confronting the enemy on equal terms.

    If you did want to somehow trap and incapacitate a Nascent Soul so thoroughly that they couldn't cut their way out with a one-shot weapon or hit the panic button and escape in time? Well... you'd create a place deep within your territory, with some of the following conditions:

    1) Preferably, somewhere where you've sequestered away a bunch of hellaciously nasty stuff that can debuff or wound someone operating on that level (some of the poisons I see referenced, maybe). That way, if you even tag them, they're weakened... and it may slow them or disrupt their efforts to use a oneshot item.

    2) And this should be a place where you may be able to stash some prepared tricks that neutralize the tricks of some of an enemy's possible one-shot treasures somehow (say, neutralizing attempts to fly or teleport away).

    3) And, again, it should be deep within your territory, to give you the maximum time to observe your enemy inbound, suss out any special defensive or obscuration techniques he's using, and increase the sheer distance and difficulty of escape. Having a magic scroll that when torn causes the boot of a long-forgotten demigod to punt you a thousand li away from the battle is less helpful when you are three thousand li behind enemy lines!
     
    [X] The best defense is a Well-Trained Army
    -[X] Take the Loan. Permanent -1 Wealth per turn, +10 Wealth now.
    -[X] Training Soldiers - Raising Disciples to higher Realms is all well and good, but training them to be perfect members of Formations is better. Ensure your Clan is trained and ready for war. Your readiness to go to war will increase significantly, though this fades over time.
    -[X] Investigate Fu Tong personally
    -[X] Build the Ten Thousand Forts (5 Wealth)
    -[X] Attempt to improve the Technique Palace (14 Wealth)


    Still trying to get back into the writing mood but i'm a GO for Technique palace upgrade because if it works it scales to the next Trial. I can live with losing 1 Wealth since my hope is that like the last war we'll gain some new sources of income with victory

    Also, I like being nice + developing a relationship with the Strength Purity. Building up a semi-alliance is neat to me. Pretty meh on the Fu Tong because i'm kinda hoping we get a option to Aid The Clan via investigating it, but i'll deal since i like the other options.

    @Katana1515 Sounds like it's time for Minervina + Muyi to help infiltrate Fu Tong be as a solo act or via being our boss's assistants. Both which would be cool shit
     
    Though I don't really expect the vote to swing, I might give it another 24 hours and then call it if it's still fairly far in front one way or another. Then I'll finally post Aliki's stuff (sorry Alectai! I forgot and then my days have been absurdly full), and Missions after that.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    I'm going to be honest, I'd frankly rather just ignore this hidden impenetrable spy-proof city (who knows, maybe the local Blood Cannibal governor just critted his counterintelligence rolls), rather than either blow a ton of money on scrying the place OR risking Manuel's life to scope it out.

    Has anyone written a plan for that?
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    Would anyone other than Simon Jester be more on board with ignoring Fu Tong this turn entirely? We could put Manuel on Weaken the Cannibals instead, we do have an option for that, and I want to buy the Palace upgrade more than I want to poke at Fu Tong this turn.

    I don't think it's a megaweapon, I think it's most likely to be a cheap money trap. All Old Cannibal needed to do was warn us by wearing a hood, relatively cheaply ward against the Eye, make Fu Tong seem like a big deal- which then forces us to blow what would be our entire war chest this turn on breaking through the wards.

    It's possibly a two-pronged trap, forcing us to either use Manuel and blind him or spend lots of money on breaking in, but then the only reason he'd warn us would be to make us spend. Otherwise, Manuel would have scryed and gotten blinded.

    The third, and most expensive possibility, really is that they went all in. They really are building a superweapon in Fu Tong, they did ward against the Eye and set up a trap against Manuel, honestly and truly trying to keep us out.
     
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    Olivebirdy said:
    Would anyone other than Simon Jester be more on board with ignoring Fu Tong this turn entirely? We could put Manuel on Weaken the Cannibals instead, we do have an option for that, and I want to buy the Palace upgrade more than I want to poke at Fu Tong this turn.

    I don't think it's a megaweapon, I think it's most likely to be a cheap money trap. All Old Cannibal needed to do was warn us by wearing a hood, relatively cheaply ward against the Eye, make Fu Tong seem like a big deal- which then forces us to blow what would be our entire war chest this turn on breaking through the wards.

    It's possibly a two-pronged trap, forcing us to either use Manuel and blind him or spend lots of money on breaking in, but then the only reason he'd warn us would be to make us spend. Otherwise, Manuel would have scryed and gotten blinded.

    The third, and most expensive possibility, really is that they went all in. They really are building a superweapon in Fu Tong, they did ward against the Eye and set up a trap against Manuel, honestly and truly trying to keep us out.
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    Well i would prefer investigating with the eye, but i would be onboard with not sending Manuel in.
    We cant replace Manuel and this stinks for me of being both a trap and a superweapon.
    Old cannibal has every reason to use every last bit of saved up trumpcards for this war.
     
    Olivebirdy said:
    Would anyone other than Simon Jester be more on board with ignoring Fu Tong this turn entirely? We could put Manuel on Weaken the Cannibals instead, we do have an option for that, and I want to buy the Palace upgrade more than I want to poke at Fu Tong this turn.

    I don't think it's a megaweapon, I think it's most likely to be a cheap money trap. All Old Cannibal needed to do was warn us by wearing a hood, relatively cheaply ward against the Eye, make Fu Tong seem like a big deal- which then forces us to blow what would be our entire war chest this turn on breaking through the wards.

    It's possibly a two-pronged trap, forcing us to either use Manuel and blind him or spend lots of money on breaking in, but then the only reason he'd warn us would be to make us spend. Otherwise, Manuel would have scryed and gotten blinded.

    The third, and most expensive possibility, really is that they went all in. They really are building a superweapon in Fu Tong, they did ward against the Eye and set up a trap against Manuel, honestly and truly trying to keep us out.
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    I'd rather not send Manuel in at all, but both plans have him going in, so there's nothing I can do about that. The biggest reason I settled on TehChron's plan is that it mitigates the risk of that somewhat.
     
    Alright so:

    [X] Plan: Better a Palace Than a Fortress
    -[X] Take the Loan. Permanent -1 Wealth per turn, +10 Wealth now.
    -[X] Training Soldiers - Raising Disciples to higher Realms is all well and good, but training them to be perfect members of Formations is better. Ensure your Clan is trained and ready for war. Your readiness to go to war will increase significantly, though this fades over time.
    -[X] Build the Ten Thousand Forts (5 Wealth)
    -[X] Attempt to improve the Technique Palace (14 Wealth)
    -[X] Weaken An Enemy (Blood Cannibals) - Choose a faction, and use your Nascent Soul strength to simply sneak in and do damage. A little underhanded and shameful, but what do you care for the views of the Righteous Path? Potentially dangerous.
     
    [X] Tehcron

    I think if we're going to use the eye of the city to scout we might as well have Manuel be in position to sabotage it if the Eye scouting report turns up anything interesting since for all that Old Cannibal is a threat I doubt he can hide something capable of threatening Old Gold from our 11 wealth infused eye meaning it shouldn't be that big of risk.
     
    Yeah Manuel is like *the* assassin in the region

    If he gets the drop on anything, including another nascent soul, then its gonna suck badly for them.

    We actually have seen him do so twice so far. Once against Corpse Gulper during their first encounter, and again against Bihrus companion with the ability to make others forget that they even existed.

    If we're right and that city does have something worth hiding behind a trap specifically meant to take Manuel out of the fight, him getting free reign to sabotage it is gonna snowball things massively in our favor.

    In the worst case we wasted 11 wealth disarming what is likely a trap of some kind for no real gain, but any such investment is gonna bite for Old cannibal because our wealth is way more renewable than his sacrifices are.
     
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