1. Why do Uninvolved 'Age' and 'Die' when even 2nd Secret people can potentially live forever?
My hunch for why Uninvolved can die of old age is that Uninvolved are fueled, or kept living, by the amount that their race sacrificed. Or maybe not sacrificed per se; but rather their lifespan is somehow related to the age and/or proliferation of a race.

Maybe the total years of history of the species before their last generations hits the "Ascend" button plays a part. Maybe only the number alive at the time of ascension matters. Maybe the amount of experience and age of the people alive at the time of Ascension, matters (i.e. If everybody is super-old, that means more power, because there's more experience and weight). Maybe youth matters instead. Maybe population at time of ascension numbers matters the most; maybe the amount of people that died throughout history (hence, short age and quick generations for a species might actually mean more fuel); maybe physical expected lifespan influences Ascended lifespan. Maybe the physical brains and mental make-up of a race matters -- those races who can physically live a really long time without going senile or crazy, can live longer as Ascended, because their "your mind does not fail with age" thing transfers helpfully to a post-Ascended state.

But maybe the reason they can die of old age, is because after a race ascends, there's no more living members of that race left. There's nobody to generate more energy. So they now have a finite lifespan.

That might also be a reason for why the Shiplords harvest the other races, to refill on some of that energy for themselves. Or to deny some of it to the future Ascended version of that race. Whether they use it to keep their semi-Ascended fed, whether they just use it to fuel their anti-Ascended weaponry, whether they fuel some of their most advanced technology, whether they use it to fuel their vigilance against eldritch beings or something, who knows. Or maybe they use it to pay taxes to those eldritch beings! Or maybe they don't vampirize off of other races at all; maybe the tribute is just to instill trauma in the races, and condition them and drive them to Ascend.

Maybe they're just dicks. Maybe they've just been doing the Imperialism thing for so long, that it just because their modus operandi and way of life. Maybe that's all they are. Imperialistic dicks. That's happened in human history; I don't see why it can't happen in galactic history, too. (God knows I would prefer this to be the answer than for the quest to reveal at some point that, no, there totally is some metaphysical reason why somebody might have a reason to commit galactic xenocide and for you to be glad for it! No. I don't want some genocide apologia. Or trying to give 'reasonable' metaphysical reasons for genocide. Cultural and historical and psychological reasons are enough; the metaphysics of a world shouldn't provide any excuses for that, otherwise you've just built a world where you've input into it an excuse for genocide.) (Like, if somebody went on an annihilation spree out of a desire to end all other life so as to prevent anybody else from Ascending? That'd be one thing. That's a horrible, but straightforward and relatable, reason. You're doing something horrific because you've got nukes and you want to prevent anybody else from getting nukes, metaphorically speaking. Hell, just having a weird religion about it? A religion that glorified suffering/sacrifice/death, and which over time just grew into this star empire that would oppress and exterminate other races? That, too, would be fine. Well, not fine fine, but. But having something like a metaphysical reason, some part of the universe itself, being for why somebody would do this and think "I'm doing you a favor!"? No, hell no.)
(In the end, I'd much rather the Shiplords reasons to be political, cultural, economical, or religious. Historical reasons, basically. Cultural forces that simply maneuvered their civilization into one that did this. Maybe ones that grew out of hand. Or that they started doing some of this, and then just eventually even forgot why they were doing this. And in the end, just continue doing it. Not... because there are Cosmic reasons to be doing this. Not for them to "Have A Point." (I can't express how much I would hate for that to turn out to be the case. No. Genocide's genocide. Do not write a setting to excuse, justify or allow for the possibility of 'But there might be a point...' for it. Just go with the usual reasons for why nations would do horrible things.))


I'm wondering now, though. Can Practice create 'armor' or 'shielding' for the Uninvolved? If the Uninvolved are uniquely vulnerable to anti-ethereal weaponry, while humanity can resist partially due to still being material, then can humanity do something about that? Maybe a joint effort of Practice and Uninvolved can result in something as resilient as a human Practitioner.

Other things I'm wondering about, is if Practice can create a structure or place that would be hidden from the Shiplord anti-Uninvolved scanners. Thereby providing the Uninvolved a way to actually visit the world, without tripping those sensors.

Or, if human Practitioners can... I dunno. 'Channel' Uninvolved in some way. Hell if I know.

Also also: can Humanity -- and the other alien races, too -- use the Second Secret to start recreating the old racial bodies of the Uninvolved? I mean, I know that if the Uninvolved just became enfleshed, they'd still just be stuck with the whole "Oh yeah the Shiplords can still just totally kill you" thing. But, I'm wondering whether the Second Secret can be used to restart and resurrect an Uninvolved species?

I'm also wondering whether a human Practitioner can link to a Marionette, and then try to talk to an Uninvolved. i.e. Can a human bring in a Marionette into this sort of place?
 
Garlak, interesting thoughts.
@ lifespan: the SL do prohibit the second secret. You might have found a reason of why they do so.
@ secure place: Sol.
@ Channeling: I thought so, too, but then raw power doesn't seem to be a problem for Potentials.
@ Channeling, part 2: If we are already on the 'kill with prejudice' list of the SL, we might use the 2nd to create meat puppets for the uninvolved.
 
1. Why do Uninvolved 'Age' and 'Die' when even 2nd Secret people can potentially live forever?
My theory is that the Uninvolved can "wore them selves out" so to speak. Like how a shovel can only be used and repaired so many times before it becomes a broken stick. I'm guessing their structure (or whatever it is that lets their mind take control of the soul... energy?) is being worn down.

On a more humerus note, the more I read this quest the more I compare it to Shonen manga, like One Piece. Come on and tell me that Amanda's charge to save Kalilah wasn't the most Shonen thing ever.
Edit: Almost forgot to vote!
[x] Plan: Ongoing Alliance
 
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Or the energy of souls is great but finite, and becoming Uninvolved stops it from replenishing.
 
Or souls just have a finite lifespan in general, whether or not you're Uninvolved, and once you've ascended there are no future generations to replace you.
 
Can I just make the point of how utterly contrary to usual SV quester outlook this statement is? Because it really is.
Not really, no. There are three typical online quest player behaviours I can outline:
1) GREED GREED GREED greed greed greed
2) Victory is Paramount!!!
3) I'm getting in the role here guys!

As it happens, questers like behaving like likeable characters, if the payoff isn't appreciably different.

On a side note - has some of the strictures of Shiplords been explained, about seeking void at one's own peril and not lingering between the stars, among other things?
 
[X] Demand nothing, Ask for only what they are willing to offer, Offer to record who they were.
 
Just so you know @Snowfire i do t think the ping about voting being open went out

Ah hell. Ok, putting this at the top so that people who click due to post size will see it before I go into technical things. To repeat:

Voting is Open.

On a more humorous note, the more I read this quest the more I compare it to Shonen manga, like One Piece. Come on and tell me that Amanda's charge to save Kalilah wasn't the most Shonen thing ever.

Before I reply to this, let me just say that I do understand the context you're using here, and I don't have a problem with it. What follows is simply stream-of-consciousness. If it ends up offending, I really don't mean it too, and I hope that it can be taken in the spirit that it's meant. As an earnest reply.

I find myself questioning why being willing to risk yourself to save one's friend and comrade is a Shonen thing. Humanity in reality has this thing where we're willing to sacrifice for others, where bonds of friendship and camaraderie often trump sanity because sometimes, sometimes, being willing to believe in the impossible works. It's why faith is still such a powerful constant to the lives of so many. Not because they might believe in a God, but because even if you don't believe in higher powers, most people find other things to believe in. This, in itself, is actually part of the foundation of Practice War. Humanity finds things to believe in. We've done so for so long that it's essentially part of us. We believe that the sun will rise, that air will be present when we breathe, that the machines we have built will function. Not all of us believe the same things, but we share the same root, I feel.

Much has been said of the Age of Reason and how it would destroy faith. Given how I created a world where religion died, you might think I agree. But I don't. If you look deeper, humanity found something to believe anyway. We reached beyond myth, beyond science, and found the cornerstone of our belief in exactly where it first began: in us. And if you believe in not just you, but those around you, is it truly so mad to be willing to risk so much for them? If you believe that every life is worth as much as your own, could you ever allow yourself to ignore it when another is in danger? There are elements here that tie into what is called Shonen, but it's deeper than that. Shonen fiction often presents a world where the hero's greatest strength (or one of them) lies in the ability to forgive another or, perhaps more simply, believe in them no matter what they've done. It's protagonist centred morality, of course, and often simplistic, but if you dig into that principle there's more than just that. Some things are unforgivable, that has always been, and I suspect always will be. But most things aren't.

I sometimes (often) play and hiss at the idea of comparison of Practice war to Shonen or Mahou Shoujo fiction, but I think much of that is down to how I see so much fiction outside of that which refuses to even consider the potential of our species beyond what harm we can do to each other. And it's true, we can do immense harm. But that isn't all we are. And in the Practice War, so many of the reasons to cause harm are gone. Societal engineering, sure. But can you really argue with the results? It was done with the best of intentions, and with consent. And it worked. Taken in that context, it's not surprising that Practice War's society is sometimes compared to that of one full of Magical Girls/Boys. Compared to the shifting colours of our own world, it might sear the eye. But I've done my best to make those colours human, even if the purity of them is by design.

Given what others have said about Practice War, I like to think I've found at least some small measure of success.

I'm wondering now, though. Can Practice create 'armor' or 'shielding' for the Uninvolved? If the Uninvolved are uniquely vulnerable to anti-ethereal weaponry, while humanity can resist partially due to still being material, then can humanity do something about that? Maybe a joint effort of Practice and Uninvolved can result in something as resilient as a human Practitioner.

Probably not. The actual energy that Potentials call upon was disrupted by the weapons the Shiplords used on you. There's nothing different about that energy, to be clear. What matters is the anchor, as I believe @Alectai first hit upon. Others have expanded that since, but the basic logic holds. The resilience of a Potential compared to an Uninvolved has nothing to do with how much energy you have. But it has everything to do with the Potential being real in a way that Uninvolved just aren't anymore.

Other things I'm wondering about, is if Practice can create a structure or place that would be hidden from the Shiplord anti-Uninvolved scanners. Thereby providing the Uninvolved a way to actually visit the world, without tripping those sensors.

Highly unlikely, for the same reasons as above.

Or, if human Practitioners can... I dunno. 'Channel' Uninvolved in some way. Hell if I know.

Now this might be possible, or something like it. Likely to be dangerous as hell, though.

Also also: can Humanity -- and the other alien races, too -- use the Second Secret to start recreating the old racial bodies of the Uninvolved? I mean, I know that if the Uninvolved just became enfleshed, they'd still just be stuck with the whole "Oh yeah the Shiplords can still just totally kill you" thing. But, I'm wondering whether the Second Secret can be used to restart and resurrect an Uninvolved species?

Theoretically yes, practically....It's Complicated. This is definitely a question to ask IC.

I'm also wondering whether a human Practitioner can link to a Marionette, and then try to talk to an Uninvolved. i.e. Can a human bring in a Marionette into this sort of place?

Who knows! Try it and find out.

(God knows I would prefer this to be the answer than for the quest to reveal at some point that, no, there totally is some metaphysical reason why somebody might have a reason to commit galactic xenocide and for you to be glad for it! No. I don't want some genocide apologia. Or trying to give 'reasonable' metaphysical reasons for genocide. Cultural and historical and psychological reasons are enough; the metaphysics of a world shouldn't provide any excuses for that, otherwise you've just built a world where you've input into it an excuse for genocide.) (Like, if somebody went on an annihilation spree out of a desire to end all other life so as to prevent anybody else from Ascending? That'd be one thing. That's a horrible, but straightforward and relatable, reason. You're doing something horrific because you've got nukes and you want to prevent anybody else from getting nukes, metaphorically speaking. Hell, just having a weird religion about it? A religion that glorified suffering/sacrifice/death, and which over time just grew into this star empire that would oppress and exterminate other races? That, too, would be fine. Well, not fine fine, but. But having something like a metaphysical reason, some part of the universe itself, being for why somebody would do this and think "I'm doing you a favor!"? No, hell no.)
(In the end, I'd much rather the Shiplords reasons to be political, cultural, economical, or religious. Historical reasons, basically. Cultural forces that simply maneuvered their civilization into one that did this. Maybe ones that grew out of hand. Or that they started doing some of this, and then just eventually even forgot why they were doing this. And in the end, just continue doing it. Not... because there are Cosmic reasons to be doing this. Not for them to "Have A Point." (I can't express how much I would hate for that to turn out to be the case. No. Genocide's genocide. Do not write a setting to excuse, justify or allow for the possibility of 'But there might be a point...' for it. Just go with the usual reasons for why nations would do horrible things.))

I'm going to do my best not to spoil things here, but what I'm about to say probably won't surprise anyone who has a good read on me. To be clear, though.

The Shiplords have a reason why they do what they do, a reason that they feel is valid. But it's their reason. Not reality's.

On a side note - has some of the strictures of Shiplords been explained, about seeking void at one's own peril and not lingering between the stars, among other things?

They have not been. Would be something to ask IC. Though Amanda is guessing from the lack of mention of void critters in the gestalt that it's either something kept under wraps...or Shiplord propaganda.
 
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They have not been. Would be something to ask IC. Though Amanda is guessing from the lack of mention of void critters in the gestalt that it's either something kept under wraps...or Shiplord propaganda.
I dimly remember an interlude during the contact fleet voyage from the point of view of either Neras - or something else resting in the void ...
 
I dimly remember an interlude during the contact fleet voyage from the point of view of either Neras - or something else resting in the void ...

I do believe that it was the Neras, though I'm not sure if it was actually confirmed.

I'd rather it be the Neras than Void monsters/Abominations/etc. tbh :V
 
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Before I reply to this, let me just say that I do understand the context you're using here, and I don't have a problem with it. What follows is simply stream-of-consciousness. If it ends up offending, I really don't mean it too, and I hope that it can be taken in the spirit that it's meant. As an earnest reply.
Naw, I'm not offended, in fact I'm happy that you took the time to post such a meaning full response from a kinda jokey line.

What I meant was throwing yourself in harms way for your beliefs and those you care for. (I swear, my mind just wants to draw parallels between Mandy and Luffy, both of them have chosen their family and the descriptions of the Circles reminds me of how Mihawk said that Luffy's most dangerous ability is that he makes friends and allies where ever he goes.) Also, people being willing to sacrifice themselves for their beliefs is something I often lob together with human determination (another Shonen staple!). Sorry if that comes off as offensive.

As for what you said on belief and humans capacity to do good- I mostly agree. Everyone believes in something, even if it isn't done consciously. I personally believe that while we may be jerks, we can improve. Also, that reminds me of the Discworld series. Particularly Small Gods and how Om's church unconsciously stopped believing in him. They believed more in the church and its rules than Om himself.
 
OK, this is kinda big, but:

[x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved
-[x] Offer to the Uninvolved
--[x] Assistance with storing their memories
--[x] Ask if there are other ways in which we can be of assistance to them.
-[x] Ask, do not demand, of the Uninvolved
--[x] Some. We very much need the help, but don't want them to endanger themselves with the following ideas:
--[x] Ask if they can act sporadically in irrelevant locations to distract the Shiplords, then safely escape before the Shiplords arrive.
--[x] Ask if they can provide Practice-like support for other members of the Coalition, operating from under Orrery defenses.
--[x] Ask if they can assist us with scaling up our FTL travel operations. We're short on high-end FTL drives.
--[x] Ask if they can communicate with us (either Amanda personally, or Project Insight) via 'thoughtcast' methods.
-[x] Ask of Tahkel
--[x] Much information. As Tahkel points out, information is the key to our standing a chance in this conflict, where others did not. Unless it would impose some unreasonable cost to answer...
--[x] What does Tahkel know or surmise of how Practice works, and how it came to be?
--[x] We created this Void Crystal. Does Tahkel have any idea or speculation as to what it does, or for that matter what it is?
--[x] Sharing the Secrets would be out of the question, because the attempt to seek Secrets directly with Practice is literally mind-blowing. But...
---[x] Can Tahkel safely tell us in a word or two what the Fourth, Seventh, and Eighth Secrets are about, in the sense that we know the Third is 'electromagnetism' and the Fifth is 'gravity control?' (Do not try this if Amanda thinks she can't handle it, or even worries she can't. This is a stretch goal)
---[x] Of the eight known Secrets, are there any the Shiplords themselves definitely do not possess? Could be good to know.
---[x] We have inferred that the Shiplords forbid the First Secret to limit access to interstellar travel, and the Second to prevent the creation of new life (including AI machine life) that might be able to defeat them. Can Tahkel confirm or corroborate these inferences? What does Tahkel believe the explanation is?
--[X] Ask about the Shiplords and their (small-s) secrets.
---[X] When we tried to have Insight-focused Practice scry directly on the Shiplords, we had this 'Nightfall' thing happen. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, that sounds like Project Insight triggered anti-Uninvolved defenses. Does Tahkel know if the Shiplords deploy such defenses to prevent observation?
---[X] Why do the Shiplords seem to have a great preoccupation with sacrifice? What is the relationship between sacrifice, their own technology and small-p practices, Practice, and the Uninvolved? Do any of these things relate to the Secrets?
---[X] In general, do the Uninvolved have information about the Shiplords' presence in the material universe, and if so, can Tahkel share it?
 
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@Snowfire can the Uninvolved help Insight gather information? They spied on US for a decade without triggering Shiplord alarms, and can safely communicate with us.
 
@Snowfire can the Uninvolved help Insight gather information? They spied on US for a decade without triggering Shiplord alarms, and can safely communicate with us.

To be fair, observation is easy. It's interaction with reality that triggers the Shiplord detection net. Given how Insight functions,Uninvolved support for it could be possible. It's being brought up in both of the plans where you're directly asking for information/help.

Tossing up a vote tally. I'd like a few more votes, but I'm aware that this is a complex one.
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on Nov 19, 2019 at 4:59 AM, finished with 74 posts and 9 votes.

  • [x] Plan: Ongoing Alliance
    -[x] Demand of the Uninvolved
    --[x] Team Up with Project Insight: While they are understandably reticent to avoid involving themselves in material affairs, the Uninvolved as a group are a wellspring of historical knowledge. If they can interact with Thoughtcasts, we can open a line of communication with them that may be undetectable to the Shiplords.
    -[x] Ask of Tahkel
    --[x] Focus on the Immediate: By opening an ongoing dialogue, Amanda is freed from the need to spend her time now trying to learn everything by herself. Focus the remainder of this conversation on knowledge and advice that will be valuable right away, or on matters that will bolster the hearts of Amanda and humanity.
    -[x] Make an Offer
    --[x] Library of Humanity: The thing the Uninvolved fear most is losing their history. In gratitude for their assistance, offer them whatever is in our power to help preserve their legacy.
    [X] Demand nothing, Ask for only what they are willing to offer, Offer to record who they were.
    [x] Bargain with the Uninvolved
    -[x] Offer to the Uninvolved
    --[x] Assistance with storing their memories
    --[x] Ask if there are other ways in which we can be of assistance to them.
    -[x] Ask, do not demand, of the Uninvolved
    --[x] Some. We very much need the help, but don't want them to endanger themselves with the following ideas:
    --[x] Ask if they can act sporadically in irrelevant locations to distract the Shiplords, then safely escape before the Shiplords arrive.
    --[x] Ask if they can provide Practice-like support for other members of the Coalition, operating from under Orrery defenses.
    --[x] Ask if they can assist us with scaling up our FTL travel operations. We're short on high-end FTL drives.
    -[x] Ask of Tahkel
    --[x] Much information. As Tahkel points out, information is the key to our standing a chance in this conflict, where others did not. Unless it would impose some unreasonable cost to answer...
    --[x] What does Tahkel know or surmise of how Practice works, and how it came to be?
    --[x] We created this Void Crystal. Does Tahkel have any idea or speculation as to what it does, or for that matter what it is?
    --[x] Sharing the Secrets would be out of the question, because the attempt to seek Secrets directly with Practice is literally mind-blowing. But...
    ---[x] Can Tahkel safely tell us in a word or two what the Fourth, Seventh, and Eighth Secrets are about, in the sense that we know the Third is 'electromagnetism' and the Fifth is 'gravity control?' (Do not try this if Amanda thinks she can't handle it, or even worries she can't. This is a stretch goal)
    ---[x] Of the eight known Secrets, are there any the Shiplords themselves definitely do not possess? Could be good to know.
    ---[x] We have inferred that the Shiplords forbid the First Secret to limit access to interstellar travel, and the Second to prevent the creation of new life (including AI machine life) that might be able to defeat them. Can Tahkel confirm or corroborate these inferences? What does Tahkel believe the explanation is?
    --[X] Ask about the Shiplords and their (small-s) secrets.
    ---[X] When we tried to have Insight-focused Practice scry directly on the Shiplords, we had this 'Nightfall' thing happen. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, that sounds like Project Insight triggered anti-Uninvolved defenses. Does Tahkel know if the Shiplords deploy such defenses to prevent observation?
    ---[X] Why do the Shiplords seem to have a great preoccupation with sacrifice? What is the relationship between sacrifice, their own technology and small-p practices, Practice, and the Uninvolved? Do any of these things relate to the Secrets?
    ---[X] In general, do the Uninvolved have information about the Shiplords' presence in the material universe, and if so, can Tahkel share it?
 
[x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved
-[x] Offer to the Uninvolved
--[x] Assistance with storing their memories
--[x] Ask if there are other ways in which we can be of assistance to them.
-[x] Ask, do not demand, of the Uninvolved
--[x] Some. We very much need the help, but don't want them to endanger themselves with the following ideas:
--[x] Ask if they can act sporadically in irrelevant locations to distract the Shiplords, then safely escape before the Shiplords arrive.
--[x] Ask if they can provide Practice-like support for other members of the Coalition, operating from under Orrery defenses.
--[x] Ask if they can assist us with scaling up our FTL travel operations. We're short on high-end FTL drives.
--[x] Ask if they can communicate with us (either Amanda personally, or Project Insight) via 'thoughtcast' methods.
-[x] Ask of Tahkel
--[x] Much information. As Tahkel points out, information is the key to our standing a chance in this conflict, where others did not. Unless it would impose some unreasonable cost to answer...
--[x] What does Tahkel know or surmise of how Practice works, and how it came to be?
--[x] We created this Void Crystal. Does Tahkel have any idea or speculation as to what it does, or for that matter what it is?
--[x] Sharing the Secrets would be out of the question, because the attempt to seek Secrets directly with Practice is literally mind-blowing. But...
---[x] Can Tahkel safely tell us in a word or two what the Fourth, Seventh, and Eighth Secrets are about, in the sense that we know the Third is 'electromagnetism' and the Fifth is 'gravity control?' (Do not try this if Amanda thinks she can't handle it, or even worries she can't. This is a stretch goal)
---[x] Of the eight known Secrets, are there any the Shiplords themselves definitely do not possess? Could be good to know.
---[x] We have inferred that the Shiplords forbid the First Secret to limit access to interstellar travel, and the Second to prevent the creation of new life (including AI machine life) that might be able to defeat them. Can Tahkel confirm or corroborate these inferences? What does Tahkel believe the explanation is?
--[X] Ask about the Shiplords and their (small-s) secrets.
---[X] When we tried to have Insight-focused Practice scry directly on the Shiplords, we had this 'Nightfall' thing happen. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, that sounds like Project Insight triggered anti-Uninvolved defenses. Does Tahkel know if the Shiplords deploy such defenses to prevent observation?
---[X] Why do the Shiplords seem to have a great preoccupation with sacrifice? What is the relationship between sacrifice, their own technology and small-p practices, Practice, and the Uninvolved? Do any of these things relate to the Secrets?
---[X] In general, do the Uninvolved have information about the Shiplords' presence in the material universe, and if so, can Tahkel share it?

Ah, forgot to vote :V

This seems nice
 
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If I count, it's tied at t he moment:
Adhoc vote count started by MTB on Nov 19, 2019 at 10:53 AM, finished with 77 posts and 10 votes.

  • [x] Plan: Ongoing Alliance
    -[x] Demand of the Uninvolved
    --[x] Team Up with Project Insight: While they are understandably reticent to avoid involving themselves in material affairs, the Uninvolved as a group are a wellspring of historical knowledge. If they can interact with Thoughtcasts, we can open a line of communication with them that may be undetectable to the Shiplords.
    -[x] Ask of Tahkel
    --[x] Focus on the Immediate: By opening an ongoing dialogue, Amanda is freed from the need to spend her time now trying to learn everything by herself. Focus the remainder of this conversation on knowledge and advice that will be valuable right away, or on matters that will bolster the hearts of Amanda and humanity.
    -[x] Make an Offer
    --[x] Library of Humanity: The thing the Uninvolved fear most is losing their history. In gratitude for their assistance, offer them whatever is in our power to help preserve their legacy.
    [x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved
    -[x] Offer to the Uninvolved
    --[x] Assistance with storing their memories
    --[x] Ask if there are other ways in which we can be of assistance to them.
    -[x] Ask, do not demand, of the Uninvolved
    --[x] Some. We very much need the help, but don't want them to endanger themselves with the following ideas:
    --[x] Ask if they can act sporadically in irrelevant locations to distract the Shiplords, then safely escape before the Shiplords arrive.
    --[x] Ask if they can provide Practice-like support for other members of the Coalition, operating from under Orrery defenses.
    --[x] Ask if they can assist us with scaling up our FTL travel operations. We're short on high-end FTL drives.
    -[x] Ask of Tahkel
    --[x] Much information. As Tahkel points out, information is the key to our standing a chance in this conflict, where others did not. Unless it would impose some unreasonable cost to answer...
    --[x] What does Tahkel know or surmise of how Practice works, and how it came to be?
    --[x] We created this Void Crystal. Does Tahkel have any idea or speculation as to what it does, or for that matter what it is?
    --[x] Sharing the Secrets would be out of the question, because the attempt to seek Secrets directly with Practice is literally mind-blowing. But...
    ---[x] Can Tahkel safely tell us in a word or two what the Fourth, Seventh, and Eighth Secrets are about, in the sense that we know the Third is 'electromagnetism' and the Fifth is 'gravity control?' (Do not try this if Amanda thinks she can't handle it, or even worries she can't. This is a stretch goal)
    ---[x] Of the eight known Secrets, are there any the Shiplords themselves definitely do not possess? Could be good to know.
    ---[x] We have inferred that the Shiplords forbid the First Secret to limit access to interstellar travel, and the Second to prevent the creation of new life (including AI machine life) that might be able to defeat them. Can Tahkel confirm or corroborate these inferences? What does Tahkel believe the explanation is?
    --[X] Ask about the Shiplords and their (small-s) secrets.
    ---[X] When we tried to have Insight-focused Practice scry directly on the Shiplords, we had this 'Nightfall' thing happen. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, that sounds like Project Insight triggered anti-Uninvolved defenses. Does Tahkel know if the Shiplords deploy such defenses to prevent observation?
    ---[X] Why do the Shiplords seem to have a great preoccupation with sacrifice? What is the relationship between sacrifice, their own technology and small-p practices, Practice, and the Uninvolved? Do any of these things relate to the Secrets?
    ---[X] In general, do the Uninvolved have information about the Shiplords' presence in the material universe, and if so, can Tahkel share it?
    [X] Demand nothing, Ask for only what they are willing to offer, Offer to record who they were.
    [x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved
 
[x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved

Could we step away from ginormous sprawling votes chock full of write-ins soon, please? I don't know or even care what the full content of either plan is at this point because both of them make my eyes cross and bleed.
 
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[x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved

Could we step away from ginormous sprawling votes chock full of write-ins soon, please? I don't know or even care what the full content of either plan is at this point because both of them make my eyes cross and bleed.
Agreed, that kind of thing actually drives me away from participating in quest votes. I'm sticking with my nice, short vote.
 
I have to disagree with Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved. There's just too much there, and it's putting all of the weight on Amanda's shoulders to come up with this off the cuff, keep track of it all by herself, and then communicate it all back to the rest of Humanity. Yes, she's an Envoy of Humanity, so she may have the appropriate authority in this context, but should she do it without consulting with anyone else?

I tried to keep Plan: Ongoing Alliance fairly brief. The descriptions I used aren't significantly different from the way Snowfire usually writes them. But I understand that there's a desire to see things kept simple, so here's an equivalent statement of the vote:

[_] Plan: Ongoing Alliance
- Ask Tahkel only for what Amanda needs to know right away, and have the Uninvolved meet up with Project Insight in a Thoughtcast. Offer to record what we can of their legacies.
 
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I will note that the Uninvolved lifespan implies interesting things.
The Shiplords don't seem to have any trouble maintaining their society over millions of years. And the Neras seem to have been around as long without any sign of their predating younger races like the Shiplords do.

Meantime the Uninvolved fade and die.
This suggests that an anchor in the materium is necessary for the longevity of a species, and that cutting them off hardcaps their lifespan.
"We are all that remains of a species known once as the Tahkel," the figure continued.
This is a...very interesting quote.
"You must understand: if we die, everything that we are dies with us. All we remember, all that our race was.
As is this.
They speak of themselves in the past sense. Like they lost something vital in Ascending.
As if they're already dead.

And the last two updates give a particular cant to what the Tribute Cycle entails.
If the Uninvolved are basically living off energy/soulfire stockpiled by each living person born to their species, then by kidnapping billions of people the Ship Lords may basically mining their racial lifespans for construction material. Or just denying it to them.

I mean, assume every person born adds X mana to the human racial soul/pool.
There are estimated to be roughly 100 billion humans that have ever been born since about 50,000 BC, of which about 7.5 billion are alive today.
If you kidnapped 9/10 of living humans today, you'd have roughly 7% of every human that has ever lived.

Repeat that several times over several centuries, and you'd get anywhere up to 50% of every sapient member of that race to date.
Which means if/when you force them to Ascend, you've already crippled them by limiting their lifespans
Clever. And yet another desecration.

And I will note that how this WoG on what the gestalt knows:
I'm afraid they don't. They can guess what the Dragons did, what they were trying to do, but beyond that? No. From what Amanda can extrapolate from the gestalt she was given, the Dragons burnt themselves out to give humanity Practice. Becoming an Uninvolved requires death, it requires sacrifice. But it's done in such a way as to protect the race that's undertaking the process. What the Dragons did...well, they weren't trying to protect themselves. They were trying to protect humanity.
Contradicts what Amanda should know from Mary's experience with Metaconcert.
From Metaconcert:
"He saved me," Tanith, the leading Dragon of the Fifth Flight and in whose shattered body you now drifted, replied. Her words were full of pain, and from the few remaining diagnostics you had access to you could see why. The damage to her body was immense, yet as you watched a few of the lights shifted from red to flickering amber. Not dead, after all. "Cut me out of the circuit, took it all on himself." The dragon continued tearfully. "Shouldn't have told, shouldn't have had the idea."
:Almost: the voice sounded in your mind, as if through a link, whatever that was. You turned, and there was a shape of light before you. Not a figure, but you could recognise it, the name it should hold.

"Tanith?" You shaped the word, almost surprised when you spoke it.
:Yes.:
The shape reached out, gathering you up in its strange hold. :We couldn't give all we had wished to, but it shall be enough, we think.:
"Good," you trailed off absently, lost in thoughts, weren't you meant to be dead? "Where are we going?"
:To rest.:

@Snowfire
QUESTION
1)Do the Uninvolved have anything different to say about the species who got genocided?
2)
They're kept from doing so in a manner largely similar to Stargate, but more...aware. As in, they'll actively stop it from happening. Most of these Uninvolved end up becoming part of a group in Uninvolved society called the Forgetfuls. They essentially wall off their anger and desire for vengeance so tightly that it can't touch them anymore. You're speaking to an example of those who don't.
Why?
 
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