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The Secrets' Crusade

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uju32 said:
QUESTION
1)Do the Uninvolved have anything different to say about the species who got genocided?
2)Why?
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Going to have to ask for clarity on what you're asking in the first question, here. Do they have something different to say about races that were wiped by the Shiplords, you mean? If yes, they deeply regret it, but there's societal trauma holding them back from actually doing so. Tahkel states that they (singular) recognise that the process is enormously hypocritical, but also that living creatures often are. And as I said somewhere else, it's very difficult to fight a fear that you've been subjected to as well.

As for your second question, it's because they don't want to risk any race that has, in their mind, escaped from the Shiplords. Yes, the Shiplords probably could wipe out the Uninvolved if they truly dedicated themselves to it. But if they did that, then they'd put so much more at risk. And in a truly backs-to-the-wall scenario? The Uninvolved would fight back. Tahkel thinks that they'd lose anyway, in the end. But the war would be devastating.
 
As a still material race (SL), how do you find the Uninvolved? Or isn't that a prerequisite for 'destroy'?
 
Snowfire said:
Going to have to ask for clarity on what you're asking in the first question, here. Do they have something different to say about races that were wiped by the Shiplords, you mean? If yes, they deeply regret it, but there's societal trauma holding them back from actually doing so. Tahkel states that they (singular) recognise that the process is enormously hypocritical, but also that living creatures often are. And as I said somewhere else, it's very difficult to fight a fear that you've been subjected to as well.
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I was basically asking if the genocided left anything behind.
Any Presence, basically.
Or if they're all gone.
Snowfire said:
As for your second question, it's because they don't want to risk any race that has, in their mind, escaped from the Shiplords. Yes, the Shiplords probably could wipe out the Uninvolved if they truly dedicated themselves to it. But if they did that, then they'd put so much more at risk. And in a truly backs-to-the-wall scenario? The Uninvolved would fight back. Tahkel thinks that they'd lose anyway, in the end. But the war would be devastating.
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Restraining people willing to fight?
Not entirely sold on the ethics of that choice.

Other-dimensional species without reliance on the First Secret for FTL? Versus Shiplords?
I would think that fighting them, even nailing them down would be....difficult.
Killing them sure. But you need to catch them.
 
MTB said:
As a still material race (SL), how do you find the Uninvolved? Or isn't that a prerequisite for 'destroy'?
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They have ways. How wasn't included in the gestalt.

uju32 said:
I was basically asking if the genocided left anything behind.
Any Presence, basically.
Or if they're all gone.
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Going off of what Amanda knows (ask if you want proper certainty) they're gone.

uju32 said:
Restraining people willing to fight?
Not entirely sold on the ethics of that choice.
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It's the ethics of entities that have been inflicted with high level cultural scale trauma to deliberately keep them scared. I'm not trying to convince you that their opinions are right, I'm just pointing out that they do have a reason for holding them.
 
Re: Uninvolved lifespan... I think a very real possibility being overlooked is the possibility that they truly are immortal, in the sense of not having a physical aging process or other limitations on how long they can survive.

I think we as mortals can't even begin to imagine the ennui that immortals must experience. Most fictional portrayals of immortality handwave it, making sure that there's enough matters of interest to keep the immortal ones engaged with life. Sometimes writers go so far as to say that the farther back they try to remember, the less clear the memory is, so you don't so much run into the problem of already having done everything, because after a while the old stuff gets fresh again.

But what of the Uninvolved, who have sacrificed their connection with the experience of life? They are solitary beings now, and while there is a community of them, it's a community where no two members share a past. They went from having billions to having one, and they have all of the power in the universe at their disposal but little to do with it. They have memories of unbearable loss and all they can do day to day is helplessly watch the events unfold in the material world.

How long could you endure this? Would you keep looking for new things to watch, channel-surfing your life away? Or would you just give up and go take a nap for a while, hoping something interesting happens when you come back? And if so, how long do you nap for?

If an Uninvolved just... doesn't bother waking up again... they're not technically dead.
 
Coda said:
But what of the Uninvolved, who have sacrificed their connection with the experience of life? They are solitary beings now, and while there is a community of them, it's a community where no two members share a past. They went from having billions to having one, and they have all of the power in the universe at their disposal but little to do with it. They have memories of unbearable loss and all they can do day to day is helplessly watch the events unfold in the material world.
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@Snowfire - why are the Uninvolved sticking around here? There's a universe out there.
 
Ok its been while since i read the last quest. But are these the things that hid between the stars. The gianr space monster i mean.
 
Acolyte said:
Yeah but from what i gather the shplords are only here. Just pop a galaxy over.
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That's a long way away. We've already seen how long it takes even the best First Secret drives to traverse this galaxy, and the distance between galaxies is way, way, way bigger than the distance across a single one.

This means it's really only possible if the soul-bearing dimensions are geometrically independent of the material ones. If there's any way for a physical race to cross that distance, then the Shiplords could simply follow. However, such independence seems extremely unlikely to me, as it would... complicate... the workings of Project Insight's Thoughtcasts. Yes, souls being immaterial means that they're not limited to the speed limits imposed on anything with mass (so they could possibly outrun the Shiplords if they had to), but it doesn't seem to be infinite.
 
Coda said:
That's a long way away. We've already seen how long it takes even the best First Secret drives to traverse this galaxy, and the distance between galaxies is way, way, way bigger than the distance across a single one.

This means it's really only possible if the soul-bearing dimensions are geometrically independent of the material ones. If there's any way for a physical race to cross that distance, then the Shiplords could simply follow. However, such independence seems extremely unlikely to me, as it would... complicate... the workings of Project Insight's Thoughtcasts. Yes, souls being immaterial means that they're not limited to the speed limits imposed on anything with mass (so they could possibly outrun the Shiplords if they had to), but it doesn't seem to be infinite.
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Yeah but it is much better then having to deal with the shiplords. And they can't follow if they don't know where they are. And even with 1C it would only take a few hundred thousand years. They live for millions of years. So they could do it.
 
[X] Demand nothing, Ask for only what they are willing to offer, Offer to record who they were.

[x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved

I really don't want to demand anything of them in exchange for something which we would have done anyway, for that is manipulation and deceit. Is that who we are?

I don't like how expansive the latter is, but fail to find a reason for why asking so many question and such would a bad thing.
 
There is probably more than just distance making intergalactic travel difficult. Beware the void after all, and, well... looooots of that between galaxies.

Also, Shiplords do what they do for a reason. Unless that reason applies to only our galaxy, well, other galaxies either don't have Shiplords to prevent whatever it is that they are trying to prevent (or accomplish), or they have their Shiplords or Shiplord equivalents.

Also, a question that we must ask: If intergalactic travel was viable, why are there no extragalactic aliens (to our knowledge) here?
 
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Snowfire said:
The larger question, of course, being how they (the Uninvolved) would get there :V
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I mean unless the Shiplords have far better travel technology the Uninvolved can just pick direction, go for it and they are never catching up. It is not a matter of where they going to but where they are going from, as even interacting only with a fleet in the middle of nowhere is better than interacting with nothing, plus they can now leave things that would live beyond them. Getting to the scattered systems far from galaxies or the dwarf galaxies would be even better, and far less likely to have anyone than a big galaxy like Andromeda.

So given they haven't done the obvious and just left the Shiplords' warning about the void must not be about the Uninvolved, there is something there that makes it a poor decision. It follows then that even the protection from a star isn't enough against whatever that is and you need the numbers a galaxy has, otherwise even if getting to the systems far from everything is off the table they could just pick one not so far(ideally one they would get to by using scattered systems so it is still rather far) and move it.
 
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Enerael said:
I really don't want to demand anything of them in exchange for something which we would have done anyway, for that is manipulation and deceit. Is that who we are?

I don't like how expansive the latter is, but fail to find a reason for why asking so many question and such would a bad thing.
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Do any of the plans demand it in exchange? I was under the impression that all of them were asking for help (EDIT: except for the one that refuses to ask for anything, but this seems like a particularly bad idea), and offering our own gift as a token of goodwill or as a measure of thanks.

My problem with asking so many questions is specifically that it frontloads everything on someone who wasn't expecting this encounter, isn't prepared for it, and is going to have to carry all of it back to the government based only on what she's able to transcribe out of her memory when she wakes up. I think that hooking up the Uninvolved and Project Insight is the better way to get a large-scale infodump.
 
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strauss said:
So given they haven't done the obvious and just left the Shiplords' warning about the void must not be about the Uninvolved, there is something there that makes it a poor decision. It follows then that even the protection from a star isn't enough against whatever that is and you need the numbers a galaxy has, otherwise even if getting to the systems far from everything is off the table they could just pick one not so far(ideally one they would get to by using scattered systems so it is still rather far) and move it.
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If that's the reason they know about it and can tell us. After what the SL did to them I'd find it hard to believe they wouldn't risk the void if there are not very good reasons not to do so.
 
Coda said:
My problem with asking so many questions is specifically that it frontloads everything on someone who wasn't expecting this encounter, isn't prepared for it, and is going to have to carry all of it back to the government based only on what she's able to transcribe out of her memory when she wakes up. I think that hooking up the Uninvolved and Project Insight is the better way to get a large-scale infodump.
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Amanda is just talking to an Uninvolved. The answers to all the unanswered questions is one question away. The Amanda in my head isn't going to schedule a meeting.
 
Coda said:
Do any of the plans demand it in exchange? I was under the impression that all of them were asking for help (EDIT: except for the one that refuses to ask for anything, but this seems like a particularly bad idea), and offering our own gift as a token of goodwill or as a measure of thanks.
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[] Demand of the Uninvolved

Now, this could certainly have multiple interpretations, and english is my second language, but:
Snowfire said:
"Please," it was not begging, not quite, yet their eyes dimmed with the word. "We cannot promise all that you might wish; against Shiplord weaponry we are too vulnerable to take the field. Our deaths would mean nothing. But if there is a price you would ask of us, even that, then ask. We will carry it to a Gathering, and do all we can to prevail in it."
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Btw, on a bit of a reread, this part:
Snowfire said:
"Because you know us now," the being replied, words you had expected. What came next, you had not. "And because your predecessors left behind what you would need to do this. To pierce the protections of the Shiplords, you would need a ship invested with power in a way only the Shiplords can. Or at least, it used to be just them. Your predecessors, the Elder First; they saw the barriers but did not understand them. And without understanding, they could only leave behind the means to break them."
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Almost certainly does not refer to the adamant ship, but to the AIs. Shiplords invest their ships with power by making them from slurried people, but we have seen that AIs can do that too through the power of their own soul when Iris tried possessing that knockoff SL construction material that we made for the War Office, and no one but us and the Shiplords has AIs.
 
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Enerael said:
Almost certainly does not refer to the adamant ship, but to the AIs. Shiplords invest their ships with power by making them from slurried people, but we have seen that AIs can do that too through the power of their own soul when Iris tried possessing that knockoff SL construction material that we made for the War Office, and no one but us and the Shiplords has AIs.
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Hmm, yeah, ok, I can state this. It's the Inviolate Matter ship. An AI would certainly help, but it's the construction of the vessel that matters most.
 
strauss said:
So given they haven't done the obvious and just left the Shiplords' warning about the void must not be about the Uninvolved, there is something there that makes it a poor decision.
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Maybe they just don't want to isolate themselves for however long the journey would take them - it's not like all Uninvolved would necessarily agree to leave and/or pick the same destination, and even at 1st secret travel rates it'd be a long time to travel.
 
TheBiggerFish said:
@Snowfire, can you conclusively state anything about extragalactic travel at this time?
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Not really. Theoretically the First Secret could be used to move between galaxies, but it's never been tried, and the range limit would make travel time utterly horrendous. The Uninvolved don't seem to use the Secrets for moving around, but as far as Tahkel's gestalt goes, they aren't aware of anyone ever trying. Some of this is birds of a feather flock together, some of it is shared trauma, etc. Elder Uninvolved might know more.
 
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