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The Secrets' Crusade

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I feel that we should probably deal with problems in our own galaxy before poking our nose in other folks business. Not that we shouldn't try, but it's like trying to conduct overseas trade when your country's flooded: not a bad thing, but there is more pressing issues to deal with.
 
FalloutCow said:
I feel that we should probably deal with problems in our own galaxy before poking our nose in other folks business. Not that we shouldn't try, but it's like trying to conduct overseas trade when your country's flooded: not a bad thing, but there is more pressing issues to deal with.
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?
My question was about the reason the Uninvolved simply left the place of trauma and continued threat of death. If you could leave a concentration camp, wouldn't you? If you don't, there's a reason. I was interested in the reason.
 
MTB said:
My question was about the reason the Uninvolved simply left the place of trauma and continued threat of death. If you could leave a concentration camp, wouldn't you? If you don't, there's a reason. I was interested in the reason.
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I think that the reason the Uninvolved didn't leave for greener pastures was because it's their home. I'd compare it to someone from the war torn Middle East refusing a chance to travel to Europe because they want to make it a better place and/or don't want to abandon their home.
 
FalloutCow said:
I think that the reason the Uninvolved didn't leave for greener pastures was because it's their home. I'd compare it to someone from the war torn Middle East refusing a chance to travel to Europe because they want to make it a better place and/or don't want to abandon their home.
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That'd make sense if SOME left and some did not. But all did not?
 
Snowfire said:
A Scarred Past: Transported from Mars to Earth before the Burning by the genius of her father, Mary was able to watch as her entire family were burnt to ashes millions of kilometers away. She buried the pain of this experience for years, beneath layers of fear, focus and self-loathing, until you were able to help free her of them. +2 Intrigue, +2 Learning
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Wait, what? This is the first I've heard of any sort of exceptional transport.


Snowfire said:
The oldest of their society was little more than a million years old, and they did not remember the beginnings of the Shiplords' tyranny. Only a different sort.
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Snowfire said:
"Those who were old when the oldest among us now were young," Tahkel replied, and something flickered in those brilliant eyes. "Our lifespans are not infinite. We begin anew, grow, change, age, and then fade. If it was not the case, then we would know why the Shiplords did what they did."
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However many years it might take, I feel as if we have already read the most important words in this quest...
 
veekie said:
That'd make sense if SOME left and some did not. But all did not?
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This is just a guess, but maybe it's something along the lines of "The devil you know is better then the devil you don't."? That or a combination of holding out hope and the sunk cost fallacy. "We already put so much time into this. We could ask another galaxy for help, but who knows how they'd react to something like us."
This is also assuming other galaxies would want something in return for help and are willing to trust these strange beings from a different reality, and I don't know if the Uninvolved would be willing to grant other races powers similar to ours (I'm amusing they can).
 
Okay, let me take a different approach to this...

@Simon_Jester Would you be willing to add "Thoughtcast meetings" to your plan? It's the most important part of my plan and the bulk of voters seem to prefer your level of detail (despite another group thinking that even mine is too much) so while I don't necessarily agree with your plan as a whole I would switch my vote to it if you added that.
 
Coda said:
Okay, let me take a different approach to this...

@Simon_Jester Would you be willing to add "Thoughtcast meetings" to your plan? It's the most important part of my plan and the bulk of voters seem to prefer your level of detail (despite another group thinking that even mine is too much) so while I don't necessarily agree with your plan as a whole I would switch my vote to it if you added that.
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Would you mind expanding on what you mean by that? My memory of that part of the discussion is a bit shaky.
 
Literally just crash the previous version of this quest and now caught up on this sequel. Thank you @Snowfire for making this enjoyable read. Gonna lurk till tomorrow after this post.

Simon_Jester said:
Would you mind expanding on what you mean by that? My memory of that part of the discussion is a bit shaky.
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Having worked my way through this thread, I feel I can try to answer this question. It's theorized that the Uninvolved can be contacted by our Insight crew without alerting the ShipLords through our Thoughtcasts. Thus we can keep a continued dialog with them. Rather than just trying to ask a ton of questions right now and maybe missing something important we have no way of knowing. If you were willing to addhe 'keep in touch through insight/thought cast' to your plan, it would cover just about everything we need I think. Even though I do think your plan might be too complex at the moment with the rapid fire questions. As it could bog down our glorious QM SnowflameFire.

I actually do prefer Coda's simpler 'Ask them if they have anything important right now; we're willing to try and preserve your memories; and let us try to keep in touch via insight.' So that will be my vote for now.

[x] Plan: Ongoing Alliance
 
uju32 said:
I'm assuming their resemblance to ghosts is more than skin deep.
They are sticking around the Milky Way because they are literally haunting the places where they used to live while material.
And can't leave. Nowhere else has emotional significance for them.
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So, becoming Uninvolved isn't escaping the SL, it's fallling into a trap.
 
Lailoken said:
Wait, what? This is the first I've heard of any sort of exceptional transport.
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It was in her old character sheet. As far as I can figure out, she's the Mars science community's answer to Superman: shoved off the planet with some kind of teleporter just before the Shiplords reduced everything to ashes.


Also, editing in 'thoughtcast.' It's near the top.

[x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved
-[x] Offer to the Uninvolved
--[x] Assistance with storing their memories
--[x] Ask if there are other ways in which we can be of assistance to them.
-[x] Ask, do not demand, of the Uninvolved
--[x] Some. We very much need the help, but don't want them to endanger themselves with the following ideas:
--[x] Ask if they can act sporadically in irrelevant locations to distract the Shiplords, then safely escape before the Shiplords arrive.
--[x] Ask if they can provide Practice-like support for other members of the Coalition, operating from under Orrery defenses.
--[x] Ask if they can assist us with scaling up our FTL travel operations. We're short on high-end FTL drives.
--[x] Ask if they can communicate with us (either Amanda personally, or Project Insight) via 'thoughtcast' methods.
-[x] Ask of Tahkel
--[x] Much information. As Tahkel points out, information is the key to our standing a chance in this conflict, where others did not. Unless it would impose some unreasonable cost to answer...
--[x] What does Tahkel know or surmise of how Practice works, and how it came to be?
--[x] We created this Void Crystal. Does Tahkel have any idea or speculation as to what it does, or for that matter what it is?
--[x] Sharing the Secrets would be out of the question, because the attempt to seek Secrets directly with Practice is literally mind-blowing. But...
---[x] Can Tahkel safely tell us in a word or two what the Fourth, Seventh, and Eighth Secrets are about, in the sense that we know the Third is 'electromagnetism' and the Fifth is 'gravity control?' (Do not try this if Amanda thinks she can't handle it, or even worries she can't. This is a stretch goal)
---[x] Of the eight known Secrets, are there any the Shiplords themselves definitely do not possess? Could be good to know.
---[x] We have inferred that the Shiplords forbid the First Secret to limit access to interstellar travel, and the Second to prevent the creation of new life (including AI machine life) that might be able to defeat them. Can Tahkel confirm or corroborate these inferences? What does Tahkel believe the explanation is?
--[X] Ask about the Shiplords and their (small-s) secrets.
---[X] When we tried to have Insight-focused Practice scry directly on the Shiplords, we had this 'Nightfall' thing happen. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, that sounds like Project Insight triggered anti-Uninvolved defenses. Does Tahkel know if the Shiplords deploy such defenses to prevent observation?
---[X] Why do the Shiplords seem to have a great preoccupation with sacrifice? What is the relationship between sacrifice, their own technology and small-p practices, Practice, and the Uninvolved? Do any of these things relate to the Secrets?
---[X] In general, do the Uninvolved have information about the Shiplords' presence in the material universe, and if so, can Tahkel share it?
 
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MTB said:
So, becoming Uninvolved isn't escaping the SL, it's fallling into a trap.
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Pretty much. Cheese in a mousetrap.

I don't think the Shiplords invest so much effort to get stable Tribute races to Ascend out of the goodness of their hearts.
I mean, as long as you're material you remain a material threat that can get better or inspire rebellion. And even if all you are doing is keeping records, you remain a material threat, since the SLs rely on their monopoly on information to control the Galaxy.

It's probably not coincidence that the secret of Ascendance can't remains so easily accessible to Tribute races without SL interference.
Not when you consider how much effort things like AI and new Secrets take to discover and implement.
For races that aren't Humanity, that is.
 
Keeping 'become Uninvolved' as a visible option could be a security valve - if you don't want to be exploited anymore by the SL, go Uninvolved. Less fight to the death situations for the SL.
Just - the tribute cycle ends. Where's the profit for the SL in the current system? Something is still missing.
 
Does anyone know if the "watching you for a little over ten of your years" lines up with the interlude where the second contact fleet's rest stop awoke something ancient in the void?

If this Shiplord Detection Web is really keeping the uninvolved uninvolved, it sounds like a ripe target for pillaging if we can get some intel on it. We know from the Insight debacle that it is possible to do damage remotely via thoughtcast.
 
I'm probably going to be closing this vote tonight, as things seem to have settled, but don't expect the update until next weekend. I have an essay due this Friday that I need to focus on, and several reports that I at least want to get started on now so I'm not slamming my face against a wall of assessments in December.

For those who were worried about complex votes, I can't promise to completely avoid them going forward, but I will promise to try and improve how directive I make votes so that massive plans like what's currently won are less likely to be seen as necessary. I appreciate this might not be everything you'd hoped for, but it's the best I feel I can offer right now if I don't want to risk making myself a liar later on.
 
The big incentive for complex plans comes when you're not sure you'll really get the chance to do something again, or to modify your plan, or to ask for different things.

People want to try everything they can think of becuase they fear not getting a chance, or because they fear that if they only try one thing, they'll get a "it's not very effective" and then they've squandered their opportunity.

So a big part of the way to avoid that is to ensure that we have the ability to go back and try things agian. If the Uninvolved will definitely give us future opportunities to ask questions, we don't have to list all the questions we have in mind right now so much. If we know they're conferring with us regularly and the first thing we suggest that they could do fails or isn't helpful, we can just ask later.

Here, there was a fear that we may never get a good chance like this to get some straight answers and suggest tactics, at least not for considerable in-game time. I know that was on my mind.
 
Simon_Jester said:
So a big part of the way to avoid that is to ensure that we have the ability to go back and try things agian. If the Uninvolved will definitely give us future opportunities to ask questions, we don't have to list all the questions we have in mind right now so much. If we know they're conferring with us regularly and the first thing we suggest that they could do fails or isn't helpful, we can just ask later.
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This is exactly what my vote was all about, and exactly the thing I was asking you to incorporate in your plan.
 
Alrighty, that'll do it.

Vote Closed
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on Nov 26, 2019 at 6:23 AM, finished with 132 posts and 14 votes.
  • [x] Plan: Bargain with the Uninvolved
    -[x] Offer to the Uninvolved
    --[x] Assistance with storing their memories
    --[x] Ask if there are other ways in which we can be of assistance to them.
    -[x] Ask, do not demand, of the Uninvolved
    --[x] Some. We very much need the help, but don't want them to endanger themselves with the following ideas:
    --[x] Ask if they can act sporadically in irrelevant locations to distract the Shiplords, then safely escape before the Shiplords arrive.
    --[x] Ask if they can provide Practice-like support for other members of the Coalition, operating from under Orrery defenses.
    --[x] Ask if they can assist us with scaling up our FTL travel operations. We're short on high-end FTL drives.
    --[x] Ask if they can communicate with us (either Amanda personally, or Project Insight) via 'thoughtcast' methods.
    -[x] Ask of Tahkel
    --[x] Much information. As Tahkel points out, information is the key to our standing a chance in this conflict, where others did not. Unless it would impose some unreasonable cost to answer...
    --[x] What does Tahkel know or surmise of how Practice works, and how it came to be?
    --[x] We created this Void Crystal. Does Tahkel have any idea or speculation as to what it does, or for that matter what it is?
    --[x] Sharing the Secrets would be out of the question, because the attempt to seek Secrets directly with Practice is literally mind-blowing. But...
    ---[x] Can Tahkel safely tell us in a word or two what the Fourth, Seventh, and Eighth Secrets are about, in the sense that we know the Third is 'electromagnetism' and the Fifth is 'gravity control?' (Do not try this if Amanda thinks she can't handle it, or even worries she can't. This is a stretch goal)
    ---[x] Of the eight known Secrets, are there any the Shiplords themselves definitely do not possess? Could be good to know.
    ---[x] We have inferred that the Shiplords forbid the First Secret to limit access to interstellar travel, and the Second to prevent the creation of new life (including AI machine life) that might be able to defeat them. Can Tahkel confirm or corroborate these inferences? What does Tahkel believe the explanation is?
    --[X] Ask about the Shiplords and their (small-s) secrets.
    ---[X] When we tried to have Insight-focused Practice scry directly on the Shiplords, we had this 'Nightfall' thing happen. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, that sounds like Project Insight triggered anti-Uninvolved defenses. Does Tahkel know if the Shiplords deploy such defenses to prevent observation?
    ---[X] Why do the Shiplords seem to have a great preoccupation with sacrifice? What is the relationship between sacrifice, their own technology and small-p practices, Practice, and the Uninvolved? Do any of these things relate to the Secrets?
    ---[X] In general, do the Uninvolved have information about the Shiplords' presence in the material universe, and if so, can Tahkel share it?
    [x] Plan: Ongoing Alliance
    -[x] Demand of the Uninvolved
    --[x] Team Up with Project Insight: While they are understandably reticent to avoid involving themselves in material affairs, the Uninvolved as a group are a wellspring of historical knowledge. If they can interact with Thoughtcasts, we can open a line of communication with them that may be undetectable to the Shiplords.
    -[x] Ask of Tahkel
    --[x] Focus on the Immediate: By opening an ongoing dialogue, Amanda is freed from the need to spend her time now trying to learn everything by herself. Focus the remainder of this conversation on knowledge and advice that will be valuable right away, or on matters that will bolster the hearts of Amanda and humanity.
    -[x] Make an Offer
    --[x] Library of Humanity: The thing the Uninvolved fear most is losing their history. In gratitude for their assistance, offer them whatever is in our power to help preserve their legacy.
    [X] Demand nothing, Ask for only what they are willing to offer, Offer to record who they were.
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