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Aircraft Design Company- Matsura's Planes Are Always Fastest!

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Character Sheet
  • Informational


    • ​
    Stress
    0​
    Office Stress
    0​
    XP
    5​

    Matsura Asuka
    Head Designer for Ohara Airworks
    Age 24 (Legally 25)
    Year 12 AF (After Flight)

    Design Stats
    Aerodynamics Engineering - +2
    Structural Engineering - +2
    Chemical Engineering - +1
    Mechanical Engineering - +1
    Ballistics Engineering - +1
    Electrical Engineering - 0

    Personal/Political Stats
    Social Skills - 0
    Politics Skills - 0
    Importance - 2
    Income - 1
    Investments - Ohara

    Resources
    Power - 0
    Wealth - 2

    Designs
    Type 1 Series - Military Variation (Designated T1M1)
    Type 2 Racer (World Speed Record October 1910-April 1911, 180kph)
    Model 2 Scout (Designated T1M2)
    Navy Scout Prototype (Drowned Rat)
    Dive Bomber B1M1 "Duck"
    Machine Gun Carrier R1A "Dragonfly" (World Speed Record May-July 1911, 200kph)
    Naval Rescue Water-Landing Supply Plane NR1M0 "Dolphin" (World speed record 240kph)
    Rhino Demon Train Hunter
    The world's first airliner
    The world's first pulsejet airplane

    Assets
    Slide Rule
    Computator (1 Reroll per Routine)

    Languages
    Albian
    Gallian

    Familiar Vices
    Drinking
    Prostitutes
    Dancing

    Family Life
    - Engaged to Arita Yachi, formerly the leading Ace in the Imperial Army. Designated #1 Cutest Army Boy, he's having some serious problems with PTSD right now.
    - Taking a second try at dating Mikami Kiho, ex-dockerwork from the south.

    Upgrades
    - 3 XP to upgrade a stat.

    Ohara Airworks
    Start Up, Imperial Capital, Akitsukuni

    Owner
    - Mr. Ohara, Rich. Aircraft Enthusiast. Business guy.

    Engineers

    Kibe Koume, 26, Office Manager
    Tiny & angry, Kibe went to school in Albia, picking up the language, the religion, and a fuckload of swear words. Speaks Albian.
    Mechanical +2, Ballistics +1
    Office Manager: If Kibe is not assigned to a team, the Office Stress is reduced by 1.

    Sakane Jun, 26, Second Team Leader
    A soured patriot, Sakane is married and has a young child being raised gender-neutrally. His two brothers who fought in the war.
    Structural +2, Aerodynamics +1
    Team Leader: If there are any additional projects, Sakane will lead them.
    Joinery: Sakane has training in the traditional Akitsukuni carpentry art of joinery, creating complex self-supporting joints with no fasteners or glue. When working with non-monocoque wooden spars or ribs, +1 Structural.

    Tezuka Kenji, ???
    A stoner with occasional flashes of insight. Nobody really knows what he does, but he's probably useful?
    Aerodynamics +2, Chemical +1
    Flashes of Brilliance: Each natural 10 rolled by any team Tezuka is assigned to gives +1 forward to the next research roll.

    Hasegawa Morio, 26
    A hopeless nerd with a photography habit, mostly on account of developing his own film, Hasegawa seems to do nothing but work and stack card houses, but somehow has an incredible attractive boyfriend. Speaks Gallian.
    Chemical +2, Ballistic +1
    Silent Workhorse: Hasegawa can work on two different projects at once for no cost to Office Stress, providing they use different stats.

    Kawamura Yosai, 25.
    Serially successful womanizer and incredibly attractive, Kawamura doesn't seem to have much of a personality outside of seducing women. Well, except for that time he seduced Asuka, which nobody talks about. Speaks Dyske.
    Structural +2, Electrical +1, Social +1
    Easily Distracted: If Kawamura is working on the same team as a female or non-binary employee, the team is at -1d10.

    Koide Hatsu, 24.
    One of the few female graduates of an Akitsukuni engineering school, Koide is brilliant and incredibly driven, but her first job at Akibara was both humiliating and exposed her to an abusive coworker. Her father is a rich businessman with factories in Joseon, and she's engaged to Ken from Castles of Steel. Speaks Joseon.
    Mechanical +2, Structural +1
    No Sleep: If you let her, Koide will work herself to death. She can work a second project for no Office Stress, but all her stats will be reduced to 1 for the routine.

    Kobayashi Ayao, ???
    Disowned heiress of the Kobayashi family, all Kobayashi wanted was a career and to be a modern woman. For her trouble, a cousin threw acid on her, scarring her face, neck, much of her torso, and her left arm. Despite appearing serene and above it all, she's actually an avowed communist activist and baseball player.
    Aerodynamics +2, Social +2

    Adachi Ren, 24
    Adachi learned chemistry from her father, one of the most famous chemical engineers in the country, rather than through formal schooling. She's married, has a kid, and takes spirituality very seriously. Yes, you did the math right, she had Yuki when she was 17. It's 1912, folks.
    Chemical +2, Electrical +1
    Young Mother: Adachi will cause double Office Stress if she has to work multiple tasks.

    Uyeno Sei, Ballistics Engineer, 31.
    The oldest member of the crew, this is Uyeno's second career. Her first was as an officer in the Imperial Navy with specialized technical training: her very promising career was cut short by her transition. Her work in a naval arsenal on machine-guns landed her the job here. Briefly dated Satomi (the age range is a bit creepy but again, 1912), she's missing a piece of her ear and is deaf on that side, from an exploding cannon. Recently returned from Varnmark from experimental surgery, she's known for her skill navigating gendered bureaucracy.
    Ballistic +3

    Mi Kyung-Jae, 23
    A recent graduate of the Imperial College of Heijo, Mi is from the recently annexed territory of Joseon. For those keeping track at home, that means he's a Korean national living in Imperial Japan in 1912. We haven't seen much of his personality because he's rightfully terrified of everything around him. He has a specialty in endurance engine design and modification. Speaks Joseon.
    Mechanical +1, Chemical +1
    Endurance Engines: Mi has an excellent understanding of metallurgy and tolerances. Any engine he works on gains +1 Reliability if a 16+ is rolled.
    Pulsejet Wizard: Mi is now one of the world's leading experts on the pulsejet engine. He can be given his own project to custom-craft pulsejet engines, and he gives +1 to any pulsejet-related project.
    Joseon National: Mi does not have security clearance to work on any top-secret projects.

    Miyoshi Shigeri, 23.
    A non-binary person and admirer of Asuka's work, they were in an support role in the Army before joining the company.
    Structural +1, Mechanical +1, Aerodynamic +1
    Mechanic: Miyoshi has some experience repairing and refurbishing aircraft. They get +1 if assigned on the clean-up phase.


    Other Employees
    - Ohara Satomi, 22, Mr. Ohara's niece and the company test pilot, Ohara is a general lesbian disaster. She's good at flying planes, driving cars, and kissing girls. She's bad at being patient, being respectable, and sticking to literally anyones conceptions of gender roles. Deeply in lesbians with Coralie D'Amboise.
    - Fujkikawa Sotatsu, old, modelmaker. He's an old man and toymaker and we don't see much of him because he locks himself in his workshop a lot. He's friends with Kawamura?

    Assets
    - Engine Test Rig (Allows engine tweaking and optimization.
    - Wind Tunnel (+1 Aerodynamics)
    - Rapid Prototype Lab (+1 Clean Up)
    Expanded Cast

    Akitsukuni Industry
    - Homura Mohoko: Head Engine Designer for Kobayashi. First female engineer in the country. A lot of sex appeal.
    - Okumura: Head of Akibara aircraft design.
    - Yamanaka Hajime: Kobayashi engineer. Young and eager.
    - Igarashi Masazumi: Kobayashi engineer. Reserved and experienced.
    - Admiral Akibara Toru: Imperial Navy Admiral. Maximum nepotism. Maximum douchebag.
    - Lt.Cmnd Akibara Shinzo: The above's son. A hottie but very forward.



    Character Families
    - Matsura(?) Mizuko: Asuka's sister. Was paralyzed in an accident in Asuka's first flight. Lives Elsewhere and is married now. Can't forgive Asuka, even though she's tried.
    - Adachi Motoki: Adachi's husband, an accountant. Legally blind.
    - Adachi Yuki: Adachi's 7 year old daughter and wannabe pilot. Very adorable.
    - Yachi's Brother: Exists.
    - Sakane's Wife: Exists. Drives him a bit crazy, but he loves her.
    - Yachi's Brother's Wife: Exists. Is statistically likely to be pregnant.
    - Lt. Coralie D'Amboise: Gallian pilot in exile. Satomi's girlfriend. 25. Accomplished bisexual duelist. She flew in the war for a single day, and for her troubles got a hole blown in her cheek and had her left arm paralyzed.

    Akisukuni Army & Ex-Army
    - Lt. Torio Tanaka: Yachi's former observer as an enlisted man. Was jumped up to fly Ducks and lost a leg on his first mission. A trained painter, married to Torio Saya.
    - Captain Amari Shiro: A Dragonfly pilot who ended up flying as Yachi's partner. Kind of delightfully twinky. They sorta slept together at one point, which wasn't great. He lost his previous boyfriend in the April Offensive and turned his plane into a shrine. He was shot in the gut and is still recovering.
    - Major Izuhara: Logistics officer, Imperial Army, this bespectled officer stood up to the Caspian Crown Prince and accidentally kicked off the Akitsikuni-Caspian War. The guilt was so much that, after almost a year of running Army procurement, he shot himself in a phone both.
    - Captain Nakai Sekien: Army scout pilot. First person to drop a bomb from an airplane, later head of the Duck Squadrons.
    - Captain Teshima: A Desk pilot that fought with Yachi. Lost an arm in the process, took over for Major Izuhara after his death. Seems cheery despite it all.
    - Captain Nashio: A real piece of shit dude and probably a rapist, he's also a war hero as the second-highest scoring ace on the Akitsukuni side. He was a young shitty kid in way over his head but it's no excuse.
    - Lt. Kinjo: Kind of a dumb lump and Nashio's friend, one of the desk pilots. Dead at 19.
    - Lt. Okazaki: Yachi's friend from before the war and pilot, he died in a spin in his dragonfly. His death probably hit Yachi the hardest.

    Westerners
    - Rose & Antoinette Sears: Pioneers of flight. Sisters. Black in 1910s not!America. Yikes.
    - Timina Guasti: Famous aircraft designer from Otrusia. Likes big planes and green.
    - Prince Protasov Vasilyevich: Crown Prince of Great Caspia. Real dick. You gotta hand it to him though, a decent flier.
    - Count von Zeppelin: Invented rigid airships. Runs a successful airline business. Damned impressive.
    - Bennhold: Aircraft Engineer. Experimenting with metal aircraft.
    - Aileen Middlemiss: Albian reporter for the Artimis Times. Well meaning and oblivious.
    Available Tech
    • Materials: Wood, Duralumin, Molded Wood, Wood & Silk Composite, etc
    • All engine mounts
    • All wing types
    • Basic reinforcement
    • Wing warping and ailerons
    • Basic water radiators
    • Flying Wings
    • Semi-Monocoque design (requires at least half the slots have frame pieces)
    • Valved pulsejets
    • Basic weapon mounts and turrets
    Tech not Yet Developed
    • Custom engines
    • Monocoque construction
    • Cantilever Wings and associated tech
    • V and T tails
    • Tailless designs
    • Aluminum and titanium
    • Cellulose surfacing
    • Any kind of radar
    • Weapon accessability mods
    • Interruptor gear
    • Geared propellers
    • And Maybe Other Stuff
    Akitsukuni
    Island Nation

    Government
    Constitutional Monarchy
    - The democratic portions of the government are dubiously legitimate.
    - The head of state is the Empress of Akitsukuni. She gives her blessing to newly formed governments.
    - The Navy and a small number of families have undue influence on politics.

    Economy
    Developing Mixed Market
    - Most industry is controlled by a small number of wealthy, family-owned companies.
    - The state provides most contracts to industry. Consumer good market is anemic.
    - Exports are few, mostly cultural.
    - Imports are raw minerals, food, oil, and expertise.
    - Currently suffering an economic crash after the last war.

    Politics
    The Diet is currently ruled by a Constitutional Nationalist government. It has a system of nonlocal proportional representation, with representatives appointed by the party in accordance to their share of the vote.
    - Constitutional Nationalists: 50%
    - Purity Club: 9%
    - New Independents: 26%
    - Fairness Association: 11%
    - United Communist League: 2%
    - Monarchists: 1%
    - Assorted Fringe Parties: 5%

    Demographics
    Akitsukuni is mostly very ethnically homogeneous. Around 5% of the population are various minorities, most from nearby countries. Roughly .1% are westerners here for business or in advisory positions.
    - Population: 55 Million
    - Religion: Mostly Kodo. Roughly 2% of the population follows western religions.
    - Wealth: Most wealth is concentrated in the top 5% of the country. Nearly 20% of the population lives in conditions indistinguishable from peasantry.
    - Urbanization: Heavily urbanized for a small economy: 35% and rapidly growing.

    Military
    At Peace
    - Imperial Akitsukuni Navy (IAN): The 6th largest in the world, and the most experienced.
    - Imperial Akitsukuni Army (IAA): 150,000 highly experienced soldiers, and a considerable reserve.

    Aspects
    - Poor Resources: Aluminum costs +1.
    - Damn Akitsukuni Engines!: Engines have -1 Reliability.



    The Main Character Of This Quest Is Nonbinary And Uses They/Them Pronouns.

    I Am Putting This Here Because The Next Person To Misgender Them Is Getting Yeeted Into The Trash

    Also here's the Gayaverse TV Tropes page, because why not.​
     
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  • Informational
    • someplaneguy said:
    Oh! The Dart has the mass budget for one of those too. Is that required in the rules?
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    I honestly don't know, but a tether hook should absolutely work for that.
    thepsyborg said:
    ...and also regarding the Deluxe I do not want to think about the last paper boat.
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    The Drowned Rat was canvas, tho. :V

    As for the structure, it's a compromise: Do you want enough wing area for a stall speed of 10? If yes, than 16m^2 of wings. Or maybe adding control flaps to the Dove
     
    samdamandias said:
    [X] The Deluxe

    Not just because it's my own design, but because it is the most maneuverable and most stable aircraft. Combined with the robust frame and the low stall speed, the Deluxe is going to be pure joy to fly.

    And there is, of course, the feature that the Deluxe has that the other designs do not: A towing shackle. (And cupholders :V)
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    Why the boat hull though? This isn't a transport plane that has to be able to land everywhere it can, and spends a lot of time over the ocean. This will stay in the local area where it started from, and spends almost all it's flight over land to take advantage of updrafts.
    Plus, while I'm not a mechanics guru, I'd think that if there is even one usecase for paper, a glider would be it.

    brmj said:
    You might be able to use that for active sonar if you had a couple directional microphones and some really simple analog circuitry to compare volumes. Just have it turn towards anywhere is it hearing its own horrible noise reflected off of something large and flat like the side of a ship.
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    How do you prevent multiple missiles from seeking out each other?

    OneirosTheWriter said:
    Granny Yamamoto smiles indulgently. "Of course, of course, I know what you mean. Those bankers are the most ruthless criminals of the modern era, after all."

    "Granny...," admonishes Naoko. "This is my first real business plan, and doing it wrong or right is the difference between easy repayments and crushing ones."

    "Don't you worry about those banks, Naoko. You come see your old granny Yamamoto, she knows people," dismisses the old woman. "In fact, I may have an interesting little wrinkle for you. I know a lot of very nice boys in the neighbourhood the Ohara factory is in, and I hear they are working on a new project that might be just your speed. Now, where is that boy of yours?"
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    Granny Yamamoto is totally a Yakuza boss.


    [X] The Dove
     
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    Packrat said:
    It might be if you really want to pursue extreme weirdness:

    Project Pigeon - Wikipedia
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    See, even the technology for that isn't there. I'm sure Pavlova will already have done pioneering work into Classical Conditioning in Caspia, assuming we have access to said work, but our Skinner analogue is six. It will take an early major leap to discover Operant Conditioning and considerable investment to get the idea demonstrated sufficiently that we'd gamble on it to guide a weapon.

    Also I don't think pigeons will like being sat next to a Pulsejet in the slightest.
     
    George said:
    What are your thoughts about this stance when it comes to cultures unfamiliar to both western readers and the characters? Does the consistency and in-character perspective avoid orientalist-esque problems? Is it best to just avoid introducing such cultures in this text?
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    my answer is i don't know and i'm not an expert. this is the pathetic flailing of one white girl trying not to be racist (and failing).
     
    OneirosTheWriter said:
    "What I'm saying is that in the future we need to understand that the Bomber will always get through."
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    I just spent twenty minutes looking for an appropriate "oh god why please no" gif and couldn't find one that was more tragic than hilarious.

    Ugh.

    Isn't it great when people apply the "lessons" of a single campaign with no regard for the circumstances thereof as if they were immutable truths for all time?
     
    open_sketchbook said:
    my answer is i don't know and i'm not an expert. this is the pathetic flailing of one white girl trying not to be racist (and failing).
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    The way you are doing things is a pretty good approach to take though. I think the thing that's important here is that approach actually allows you to focus on the characters.

    The more environmentally descriptive take on writing foreign environments will have a hard time at best being about what being in that foreign environment is like and more likely trending towards at worst being.. yikes.
     
    thepsyborg said:
    Isn't it great when people apply the "lessons" of a single campaign with no regard for the circumstances thereof as if they were immutable truths for all time?
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    To the best of my awareness no air defence system has ever fully stopped a concerted bombing attack. The bomber will always get through. The bomber will not always get back. The lesson that the bomber will always get through is both correct and important for the development of things such as VSHORAD protection of targets, but it needs to not be adopted as a truism that results in a blasé attitude towards bomber defence and escort.
     
    Ok, Sustain is how much speed we lose each turn, so we want low Sustain? So that's either Dove or Deluxe. Deluxe lands on water which I don't like and Dove is cheaper. Soooo:

    [X] The Dove

    [edit]
    added 'The' for vote tally shenanigans.
     
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    FrangibleCover said:
    To the best of my awareness no air defence system has ever fully stopped a concerted bombing attack. The bomber will always get through. The bomber will not always get back. The lesson that the bomber will always get through is both correct and important for the development of things such as VSHORAD protection of targets, but it needs to not be adopted as a truism that results in a blasé attitude towards bomber defence and escort.
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    Okay, but surely an air defence system has caused some force to deem a bombing attack not worthwhile or require delay for construction of additional bombers, right?
     
    [X] The Dart

    Going with this because I don't particularly see why we'd want to be making more aggressive maneuvers in this - it's purely for enjoying flight and getting flight hours in a way that doesn't involve loud engines or massive amounts of stress.
     
    George said:
    Okay, but surely an air defence system has caused some force to deem a bombing attack not worthwhile or require delay for construction of additional bombers, right?
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    Oh, certainly. An air defence system can shoot down most or all of the bombers on a raid, they can cause sufficient damage and put up sufficient resistance to render the attack itself inaccurate or otherwise insufficient, they can convince a bomber leader that turning back is a better option than pressing through. On the campaign level air defences can force changes in strategy and in operational patterns that reduce the effectiveness of bombing, see the RAF's switch to night raids in 1940-41 as it became clear that unescorted daylight raids into Germany were causing unacceptable losses, and it is reasonably easy for air defences to make strategic bombing economically inefficient in that it requires more production of aircraft and pilots than it damages or ties down in the country being bombarded.

    It's like the Elan Vital. The bomber will always get through. The attackers will always reach the trench line. You have to be prepared for this to happen to you. You also need to consider whether the bomber getting through is an end or merely a means to an end, and if it is a means to an end is it the best means available? Basically the point of my rambling is that "The bomber will always get through" being concluded from the Akitsukuni-Caspian War is not a bad conclusion in itself, it's what is done with the conclusion in terms of informing air doctrine that could be disastrous.

    God I've put this badly.
     
    Chopak said:
    Deluxe lands on water which I don't like
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    The Deluxe is amphibious, technically.

    But we need to wait for autogyro rules before we can start pitching rotor kites as towed observation platforms to the navy. (You may think I am overly fond of autogyros. You may be right. And yes, I will need to put together a pulsejets autogyro Just to see if it can be done.
    Ash19256 said:
    Going with this because I don't particularly see why we'd want to be making more aggressive maneuvers in this - it's purely for enjoying flight and getting flight hours in a way that doesn't involve loud engines or massive amounts of stress.
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    The Dart also has the worst handling characteristics of the three.

    As far as I can tell, the Dove is just straight-up better than the Dart. Deluxe has some trade-offs for additional features, but people are favoring the Dove.
     
    FrangibleCover said:
    Oh, certainly. An air defence system can shoot down most or all of the bombers on a raid, they can cause sufficient damage and put up sufficient resistance to render the attack itself inaccurate or otherwise insufficient, they can convince a bomber leader that turning back is a better option than pressing through. On the campaign level air defences can force changes in strategy and in operational patterns that reduce the effectiveness of bombing, see the RAF's switch to night raids in 1940-41 as it became clear that unescorted daylight raids into Germany were causing unacceptable losses, and it is reasonably easy for air defences to make strategic bombing economically inefficient in that it requires more production of aircraft and pilots than it damages or ties down in the country being bombarded.

    It's like the Elan Vital. The bomber will always get through. The attackers will always reach the trench line. You have to be prepared for this to happen to you. You also need to consider whether the bomber getting through is an end or merely a means to an end, and if it is a means to an end is it the best means available? Basically the point of my rambling is that "The bomber will always get through" being concluded from the Akitsukuni-Caspian War is not a bad conclusion in itself, it's what is done with the conclusion in terms of informing air doctrine that could be disastrous.

    God I've put this badly.
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    alright yeah that makes a lot more sense! A totally safe area isn't the goal of air defense.
     
    samdamandias said:
    As far as I can tell, the Dove is just straight-up better than the Dart.
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    That is not true.

    The Dart has 4 Drag Points to the Dove's 7. That means that for a given altitude the Dart can go almost twice as far, cover the same distance at a faster speed or some combination of the two. The Dart also has 101 handling to the Dove's 99, so it actually handles better. The difference in Sustain comes down entirely to the Dart being lower drag.

    The actual advantages that the Dove has is that it is the safest design due to max-G 4 vs 2 plus a roll bar and that it's slightly cheaper.

    The Deluxe at 6 Drag Points is slightly faster than the Dove but quite a bit slower than the Dart. To make up for that it's stall speed is half of the others (10 km/h vs 20km/h) which lets it exploit weaker sources of rising air and it's amphibious.
     
    If reduced drag doesn't make a glider better then there is something wrong with the rules. In real life gliders are the planes that most need low drag.

    If low drag doesn't matter then yeah, the Dart would be the worst plane because it makes trade-offs to reduce drag that make it more expensive and less tough.
     
    Well, the places where drag interacts with the rules are in determining the top speed in level flight, which doesn't work for gliders because they're unpowered and therefore have a top speed of zero, and in calculating the new Retain and Sustain numbers. These are still being worked on but I think the way that it's going to shake out for any of our gliders due to their ridiculously low stall speeds and masses is that they have Sustain 1, which means they're as efficient in turning as possible, and high Retain which means that they're going to lose a lot of speed when zoom climbing. It's not that drag makes no difference to performance, it's that the difference between DP4 and DP7 is minimal for our aircraft due to their other properties. This probably does need a look because the Dove with DP100 has no functional performance difference either, it just keeps getting worse at zoom climbing. On the other hand there's currently no explicit thermalling system and I suspect that if we had one it would take Retain into account.

    In terms of design decisions, the Dove isn't supposed to go far or fast. It's designed to let the pilot and instructor hop up, do a circuit or two and return safely to the ground having gained important experience of flight or felt the wind through their hair again. For competitive gliding in the modern sense the Dart is better, but then for competitive gliding in the modern sense you're actually better off having some flash bastard with money to burn buy you a huge pile of aluminium foil.
     
    FrangibleCover said:
    Well, the places where drag interacts with the rules are in determining the top speed in level flight, which doesn't work for gliders because they're unpowered and therefore have a top speed of zero, and in calculating the new Retain and Sustain numbers. These are still being worked on but I think the way that it's going to shake out for any of our gliders due to their ridiculously low stall speeds and masses is that they have Sustain 1, which means they're as efficient in turning as possible, and high Retain which means that they're going to lose a lot of speed when zoom climbing. It's not that drag makes no difference to performance, it's that the difference between DP4 and DP7 is minimal for our aircraft due to their other properties. This probably does need a look because the Dove with DP100 has no functional performance difference either, it just keeps getting worse at zoom climbing. On the other hand there's currently no explicit thermalling system and I suspect that if we had one it would take Retain into account.

    In terms of design decisions, the Dove isn't supposed to go far or fast. It's designed to let the pilot and instructor hop up, do a circuit or two and return safely to the ground having gained important experience of flight or felt the wind through their hair again. For competitive gliding in the modern sense the Dart is better, but then for competitive gliding in the modern sense you're actually better off having some flash bastard with money to burn buy you a huge pile of aluminium foil.
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    I'm not quite sure what the deal is with Retain, but it occurs to me that zoom climbing and the kind of climbing you want to do in a glider are two very different things, and that being good at one need not imply being good at the other.
     
    brmj said:
    I'm not quite sure what the deal is with Retain, but it occurs to me that zoom climbing and the kind of climbing you want to do in a glider are two very different things, and that being good at one need not imply being good at the other.
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    Yeah, efficient shallow climbing relies on efficient lift generation more than it does on just having low drag and lots of power. Maybe it should be linked to Sustain which has similar implications? That way gliders with good lift characteristics can climb very cheaply, although not entirely for free. That would also mean that for powerful fighters with small wings it's better to smash the nose high and prop hang to climb rather than trying to circle about in a shallow climb. That's not quite quite right but powerful fighters definitely climb their best at lower airspeeds compared to the best climbs of handling fighters and this sort of kind of represents it. The disadvantage of this approach is that it still means drag generation is almost totally meaningless to gliders, it's mass that is critical.
     
    So my take on retain and sustain is that they are good at categorizing energy vs turn fighters the way they should be and the effect of sustain is correct, but retain is not. I'm going to suggest that retain be dropped and sustain be turned into a modifier on both how much speed a combat turn costs you and how much speed you gain in a dive.

    My reasoning is:
    Low sustain (high retain) comes from high drag and low wing loading which is a great description of turn fighters. The high baseline drag means that the increase in drag during a combat maneuver is a smaller proportion of the overall drag. The low wing loading minimizes the extra drag of the combat maneuver. The high drag counters the low wing loading in making a plane that climbs well.
    High sustain (low retain) comes from low drag and high wing loading which is a good description of energy fighters. The high wing loading counters the low drag in making a plane that climbs well (which should be related to power/weight ratio). They do strongly affect how much speed the plane pick up in a dive though.

    So if sustain is used as a modifier for both speed lost in a combat maneuver and speed gained per altitude in a dive then the system should work about the same on the energy fighter vs turn fighter aspect as well as use one stat in the place of two. It also makes it work for gliders since the Dart would gain more speed per altitude drop (ie better lift to drag ratio, which it has) but cost more speed when turned hard.
     
    I like that, but I also think that whatever energy management system we end up with there needs to be a way for aircraft to be bad at both. A Handley-Page Type O is not by any stretch of the imagination a turn fighter, nor can it be called an energy fighter with a straight face. A single number can't really account for that complexity.

    This is a definite struggle to mechanise, which is probably why we're thinking about it now with most of the plane designer more or less nailed down.
     
    If you want to separate the stats for good energy fighter and good turn fighter so they're not directly opposed then keep sustain as it is but make retention control speed gained in a dive and be based off mass and drag (to approximate lift-to-drag ratio) instead of stall and drag. That then makes ideal turn fighters have lots of wing area for their weight and ideal Boom-n-Zoom fighters have low drag for their weight. It also allows for planes that have large wings and low drag for their weight being good at everything. The Handley-Page Type O with lots of drag and weight would be bad by both ratios as well.
     
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