The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
It doesnt matter if "we are in the process of .."....what matters is that they are there NOW. so every year it takes us to remove the spys is a entire year they can steal the stuff....and considering the talks about spending GD's on the nid's means it might be entire turns before we can get to the DN spie problem.

furthermore, as a seperate point, where did Durin say that we got the bigger/most dangerous spies? he only said that he got some dangerous ones from what I recall.
we have to get at least the majority of them before its safe and I don't think durin's wording implied that (although I don't have his exact wording in front of me).

Finnally, the other sane humans are likely to have better security as they have primarchs with them even if they are not intrique paragons they are still likely around 40.....I'm not sure DN has that. besides, that doesnt mean we should give them more opportunitys to steal more tech.

edit: ninjaed
Another thing to consider is the fact that any tech captured could be used by Amrika and others in the way of the Nids to bribe the other local chaos polities to gain their help like Turoq did meaning the tech could spread further than we realize. This doesn't seem that unlikely since again Turoq did it and the chaos planets in their path would likely realize how screwed they would be if they didn't get any more help.
 
Another thing to consider is the fact that any tech captured could be used by Amrika and others in the way of the Nids to bribe the other local chaos polities to gain their help like Turoq did meaning the tech could spread further than we realize. This doesn't seem that unlikely since again Turoq did it and the chaos planets in their path would likely realize how screwed they would be if they didn't get any more help.
Turoq is a bad example. Literally had a paragon trait that made him less chaos minded.
 
Turoq is a bad example. Literally had a paragon trait that made him less chaos minded.
Not that bad an example considering it's been noted by Durin himself that Chaos is a lot more willing to work together if their backs are pushed against the wall and considering how screwed every single chaos aligned planet in the path of the Nids are I expect a lot of desperation.
 
Integration of tech takes time, so we need to get them started sooner than later.
This is really what makes giving them more tech right now useless. The time it takes to implement new tech is dependent on the amount of new tech. No one gets a static time implement all new tech action. They're going to be decades implementing our T1 and T2 techs alone. Giving them T3 and T4 techs on top of that doesn't mean they get them all implemented in the same time.

Based on our own experience with the conclave the vast majority of time spent on integration will be the T1 and T2 techs, with T3 and T4 taking a fraction as long. Those higher techs can be released later when they've actually got the economy to build those units in numbers and we've had time to flush out their spies.
 
This is really what makes giving them more tech right now useless. The time it takes to implement new tech is dependent on the amount of new tech. No one gets a static time implement all new tech action. They're going to be decades implementing our T1 and T2 techs alone. Giving them T3 and T4 techs on top of that doesn't mean they get them all implemented in the same time.

Based on our own experience with the conclave the vast majority of time spent on integration will be the T1 and T2 techs, with T3 and T4 taking a fraction as long. Those higher techs can be released later when they've actually got the economy to build those units in numbers and we've had time to flush out their spies.
Kind of annoyed that people seem to be completely ignoring the fact it would take the Dragon's Nest decades just to implement the lower tiers by the time the Nids get here anyway at which point we could have spent that time rooting out spies before they were ready to implement the next level. Giving them the tech now just shoots ourselves in the foot long term.
 
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Let's just ask @Durin
1 how effective will give them option 2 be
2 how effective will giving them option 1
3 how long will it take them to implement option 2 tech compared to option 1
4 what does Dragon's nest think of thier ability to keep tech theft from happening?
5 will option one help the conservative faction since we will be voting with the conservative block?
 
"Boy howdy Henry, how come your mom let's you stat out Aryz?"
FIRST COUNCILOR ARYZ OF THE QUARTOK
Force Org Priced at S pts a model; Power Rating: s


Name

M

WS

BS

S

T

W

A

LD

Sv

Aryz? Is that some kind of cocktail?

8"

2+

2+

7

7

12

4

10

2+
Unit Type: Tiny Infantry, why'd you even ask?
Unit Composition: Just some guy
Wargear: Harbinger's Arrow, Breaker of Orks, Aryz's Fusion Pistol, Mk II Flechett Pod, Quartok Photon Pack, The Mountain that Moves


  • The Mountain that Moves: Just some thick plate made from a Broadside Battle Suit and Iridium, with a few integral MV52 Shield Generators and a couple Fusion Reactors. This provides a 2+ Armor Save and a 3+ Invulnerable save.
  • Advanced Targeting System: A model equipped with an advanced targeting system increases the AP characteristic of all of its weapons by 1 (e.g. an AP of 0 becomes -1, an AP of -1 becomes -2).

  • Counterfire Defence System: A model equipped with a counterfire defence system re-rolls failed hit rolls when firing Overwatch.
  • Early Warning Override: If any enemy units are set up within 12" of a model from your army equipped with an early warning override as the result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle (i.e. teleporting to the battlefield), then at the end of that phase the model may immediately shoot at one of those units as if it were your Shooting phase, but you must subtract 1 from hit rolls when resolving these shots.

  • Multi-Tracker: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the Shooting phase for a model equipped with a multi-tracker if it fires all of its weapons at the same target and that target contains 5 or more models.
  • Target Lock: A model with a target lock does not suffer the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons. The model can also Advance and fire Rapid Fire weapons, but must subtract 1 from its hit rolls when doing so.
  • Velocity Tracker: Add 1 to hit rolls for a model with a velocity tracker when it shoots at a unit that can FLY.




Weapon

Range

Type

S

AP

D

Abilities

Harbinger's Arrow

108"

Heavy 2

12

-5

d6+2

For each wound roll of 5+, the target suffers d3 Mortal Wounds in addition to the normal damage

Breaker of Orks
(Melee)

6"
Melee

Assault 1d6
Melee

X2
x2

-5
-5

d6+6
d6+6

For each wound roll of 6+, the target suffers d3 Mortal Wounds in addition to the normal damage

Aryz's Fusion Pistol

12"

Pistol 2d3

8

-5

d6+1

Melta

Mk II Flechette Pod

12"

Pistol 2d6

4

-

2

Reroll failed to wound rolls

Quartok Photon Pack

18"

Grenade d6

4

-

1

Your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made for INFANTRY units that have suffered any hits from this weapon until the end of the turn
Rules:

  • Titan of War: Effects that vary on if the target is Infantry or a Walker affect Aryz according to which is more beneficial or least harmful.
  • Even Death Fears Ancient Soldiers: 4+ Feel No Pain
  • First Harbinger of Death: Reroll failed to hit and to wound rolls against Orks and Daemons. Imperial Trust units within 12" may reroll to hit and to wound rolls of 1 against Orks and Daemons.
  • Witness to the Apocalypse: Imperial Trust units within 12" may use his Leadership instead of their own, and may reroll to hit rolls of 1 against Chaos and Imperial Remnants
  • Glad he's on our side: Imperial Trust units within 12" may reroll failed morale tests if he is in an assault.
  • Quartok: Can use Pistols and Grenades with other weapons.

Options: s
Faction Keywords: Imperial Trust, Quartok, Xenos Auxiliaries
Keywords: Character, Infantry, Walker
 
will option one help the conservative faction since we will be voting with the conservative block?

I'm usually all for kicking the legs out from under the conservatives, but this is a terrible time to be playing Trust Politics even as a tertiary concern. The entire sector is about to be eaten by space bugs and we have to risk handing our greatest advantage (now among the greatest advantage of all sane human polities) to Chaos. Whether or not Olaf and Vanaheim score political points should not even be on the radar of the decision.
 
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Hey @Durin
1. Are planetary defences a valid tech fundamental for Tranth?
2. Could he make them faster to set up?
3. Would that noticeably increase our ability to fortify before the Tyranids get here?

4. Would we need to split ground and orbital defences fundamentals?

5. How would coming up with an idea to make orbital defences cheaper or faster to set up actually work? I mean, Do you award incremental improvements based on how good the idea sounds or require tradeoffs or what?

I assume that orbital defences could be designed to be transported via warp using either ship design fundamentals or an orbital defenses fundamental, but depending on which we use to figure it out the final product would be different. Ie. orbital defenses fundamental allows for more expensive defences that can be easily towed long distances like a ramilies by any ship, while ship design allows for the construction of a mass conveyor variant that can transport a limited number of ordinary orbital defences at once.
6. Is this guess right?

I'm a little surprised that Vulcan's speech isn't affecting Mikaelson's vote.
7. Is that intentional or an oversight?


I was thinking that with the recent windfall of production enhancing STC's we might be in danger of not having the actions to spend every possible resource before the Tyranids arrive.
8. Would the Trust loaning/trading Dragon's nest Advanced Material/other war material be worthwhile? Would it be practical, both in expenses and in travel cost?
 
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I'm usually all for kicking the legs out from under the conservatives, but this is a terrible time to be playing Trust Politics even as a tertiary concern. The entire sector is about to be eaten by space bugs and we have to risk handing our greatest advantage (now among the greatest advantage of all sane human polities) to Chaos. Whether or not Olaf and Vanaheim score political points should bot even be on the radar of the decision.
Everything is politics. Also never underestimate humans ability to push something stupid through when things are bad.

I want to give more tech to dragon's Nest so we will be better prepared for the future wars that are coming our way. We are focused on the Tryanids when we have a Waagh and who knows what else coming our way. We need dragon's nest as best prepared as possible.
 
Everything is politics. Also never underestimate humans ability to push something stupid through when things are bad.

I want to give more tech to dragon's Nest so we will be better prepared for the future wars that are coming our way. We are focused on the Tryanids when we have a Waagh and who knows what else coming our way. We need dragon's nest as best prepared as possible.

That is not really inter-Trust politics, that is your judgement of the strategic situation and it's a perfectly fair opinion to have, the thing I do not think we should be considering is making this vote (upon which hang trillions of lives) about staying with our political allies or getting one over on our political rivals. That seems like the epitome of pettiness, something we as the Trust would want to move way from.
 
[X] Vote Suggestion 2
-[x] We have agreed to and currently in talks with Dragon's nest in forming a single polity. When combined and given all our technology, together we will be able to quadruple our current military strength. As well as giving them a boost they will also be able to upgrade. While we are all worrried about the Tyranids they are not the only problem we are facing. With a Waagh in the region expected to hit the chaos polities we need are allies even more and tech exchange will help them and us greatly. For those of you worrried about tech theft we do have agreements helping Dragon's nest with their spy problem.
 
[X] Vote Suggestion 2
-[x] We have agreed to and currently in talks with Dragon's nest in forming a single polity. When combined and given all our technology, together we will be able to quadruple our current military strength. As well as giving them a boost they will also be able to upgrade. While we are all worrried about the Tyranids they are not the only problem we are facing. With a Waagh in the region expected to hit the chaos polities we need are allies even more and tech exchange will help them and us greatly. For those of you worrried about tech theft we do have agreements helping Dragon's nest with their spy problem.
 
*Sees more people voting for Enjou's plan despite several people pointing out some serious flaws in it*

Seriously, would it kill people to not bandwagon Enjou and actually read everyone else's post pointing out said flaws? Some may have done so but it really feels like few have and bandwagoning tends to be a serious issue. As people have noted they have no problem giving DN more advanced tech after we root out most of the rest of the spies including those in high places. It would still take them decades to implement the lower tech anyway so the only thing giving them the rest after we had 2-3 decades to root out spies with Ridcully's help just makes sense and doesn't just give out tech that could be stolen for no real reason.
Adhoc vote count started by Red Bovine on Apr 10, 2019 at 2:33 PM, finished with 123938 posts and 31 votes.

  • [X] Vote Suggestion 1
    -[X] Provide Dragon's Nest will all Tier 1 and 2 technology that you have access to along with Tier 3 Technology that is intended for use by Astartes.
    -[X] Point out that the Blood Dragons are still dealing with significant numbers of spies from Chaos polities, possibly including agents of the Alpha Legion. Until Grandmaster Ridcully and the Inquisition can flush them out, giving the Blood Dragons higher tier technologies poses a great risk to the Trust's future security.
    -[X] Argue that the higher-tier technology transfer will not help the Blood Dragons in the coming war against the Tyranids, as they will not have sufficient time necessary to upgrade the industries required to construct and maintain the high-tier technologies.
    -[X] Waiting until the end of the current Tyrannic War will let us assess the future strategic situation better, as we will be certain which the local Chaos polities will continue to be security threats to the Trust.
    [X] Vote Suggestion 2
    -[x] We have agreed to and currently in talks with Dragon's nest in forming a single polity. When combined and given all our technology, together we will be able to quadruple our current military strength. As well as giving them a boost they will also be able to upgrade. While we are all worrried about the Tyranids they are not the only problem we are facing. With a Waagh in the region expected to hit the chaos polities we need are allies even more and tech exchange will help them and us greatly. For those of you worrried about tech theft we do have agreements helping Dragon's nest with their spy problem.
    [X] Semi-Compromise Option 1/2
    -[X] Provide Dragon's Nest will all Tier 1 and 2 technology that you have access to along with Tier 3 and Tier 4 Technology that is intended for use by Astartes.
    -[X] The Blood Dragons are still dealing with significant numbers of spies from Chaos polities, possibly including agents of the Alpha Legion. Until Grandmaster Ridcully and the Inquisition can flush them out, giving the Blood Dragons higher tier technologies poses a great risk to the Trust's future security.
    -[X] Higher-tier technology transfer will not significantly help the Blood Dragons in the coming war against the Tyranids, as they will not have sufficient time necessary to upgrade the industries required to construct and maintain the high-tier technologies en masse.
    -[X] The higher tier technologies intended for Astartes, however, should both be implementable to great effect within the short time frame as well as being exclusive in use enough that they would be difficult to steal.
    [X] Vote Suggestion 1
    [X] Vote Suggestion 2
 
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[X] Vote Suggestion 1
-[X] Provide Dragon's Nest will all Tier 1 and 2 technology that you have access to along with Tier 3 Technology that is intended for use by Astartes.
-[X] Point out that the Blood Dragons are still dealing with significant numbers of spies from Chaos polities, possibly including agents of the Alpha Legion. Until Grandmaster Ridcully and the Inquisition can flush them out, giving the Blood Dragons higher tier technologies poses a great risk to the Trust's future security.
-[X] Argue that the higher-tier technology transfer will not help the Blood Dragons in the coming war against the Tyranids, as they will not have sufficient time necessary to upgrade the industries required to construct and maintain the high-tier technologies.
-[X] Waiting until the end of the current Tyrannic War will let us assess the future strategic situation better, as we will be certain which the local Chaos polities will continue to be security threats to the Trust.
 
*Sees more people voting for Enjou's plan despite several people pointing out some serious flaws in it*

Seriously, would it kill people to not bandwagon Enjou and actually read everyone else's post pointing out said flaws? Some may have done so but it really feels like few have and bandwagoning tends to be a serious issue. As people have noted they have no problem giving DN more advanced tech after we root out most of the rest of the spies including those in high places. It would still take them decades to implement the lower tech anyway so the only thing giving them the rest after we had 2-3 decades to root out spies with Ridcully's help just makes sense and doesn't just give out tech that could be stolen for no real reason.
Considering that it is my plan and you are complaining about people not reading things is kind of ironic to me
 
Kind of annoyed that people seem to be completely ignoring the fact it would take the Dragon's Nest decades just to implement the lower tiers by the time the Nids get here anyway at which point we could have spent that time rooting out spies before they were ready to implement the next level. Giving them the tech now just shoots ourselves in the foot long term.

There are several technologies that can be implemented in parallel, which if not given now are likely to require refits later, or just result in what they've built being inferior. Much of that is naval tech, which is a lot harder to steal. Further, it's much easier to root out spies in that area since it let's us focus efforts on worlds with shipyards.

Meant the plan that he makes and votes for. Because looking at the posts after he posted a lot more people started voting for said plan.

It was also the morning on the east coast, and lots of people were just waking up and logging in to the site. Have you considered that maybe people waking up just preferred that plan? Or maybe that they just agreed with my points more than yours?

This crap about people just voting for whatever I support is annoying and disrespectful to the voters. It's telling them they're a bunch of mindless sheep. They aren't. If your arguments aren't good enough to convince others to vote your way, don't blame me or them for it.
 
Meant the plan that he makes and votes for. Because looking at the posts after he posted a lot more people started voting for said plan.
This crap about people just voting for whatever I support is annoying and disrespectful to the voters. It's telling them they're a bunch of mindless sheep. They aren't. If your arguments aren't good enough to convince others to vote your way, don't blame me or them for it.
To chime in on this, I am quite literally the person Enjou was talking about. I went to bed, woke up read the arguments decided I liked option 2 better, voted and went back to bed again, because the light burns mine troglodyte eyes.

Like usually when people bandwagon a thing is for good reason, there is thought to it.
 
There are several technologies that can be implemented in parallel, which if not given now are likely to require refits later, or just result in what they've built being inferior. Much of that is naval tech, which is a lot harder to steal. Further, it's much easier to root out spies in that area since it let's us focus efforts on worlds with shipyards.
Again, you seem to be underestimaing how difficult it would be to immediately gather all the spies considering that freaking Ridcully stated that the area was way too big for him to search for thousands of spies and he needed to focus on just the ones who were the most likely to cause the most damage and doubt we got all of them. There were also a number of other flaws pointed out. Your plan is literally give them a lot of tech without considering the issues it could lead to down the line.
It was also the morning on the east coast, and lots of people were just waking up and logging in to the site. Have you considered that maybe people waking up just preferred that plan? Or maybe that they just agreed with my points more than yours?

This crap about people just voting for whatever I support is annoying and disrespectful to the voters. It's telling them they're a bunch of mindless sheep. They aren't. If your arguments aren't good enough to convince others to vote your way, don't blame me or them for it.
My issue is not with you but bandwagoning in general when people start pointing out flaws in a plan that gets a lot of votes from someone that tends to get bandwagoned. What's really annoying though is when it seems like people tend to ignore other people's points since they don't add their reasoning for voting for a plan that a lot of people are criticising and pointing out flaws to.
 
Again, you seem to be underestimaing how difficult it would be to immediately gather all the spies considering that freaking Ridcully stated that the area was way too big for him to search for thousands of spies and he needed to focus on just the ones who were the most likely to cause the most damage and doubt we got all of them. There were also a number of other flaws pointed out. Your plan is literally give them a lot of tech without considering the issues it could lead to down the line.
Aye, but as he said the ring leaders and most highly placed people have already been eliminated, the Inquisition and their own internal forces are ferreting out people as fast as they can and we're going to have to do it eventually, starting now when the situation can be described as "o ****" doesn't seem unreasonable.

This is to say nothing of the fact that it seems rather arrogant to treat tech being nicked off them as being inevitable, we've traded tech to them in the past, a large amount of it at that and to our knowledge the only time they let it be taken was when Turoq stole some. It hardily seems like they're just letting people waltz in despite the spies, unless of course its Alpha legion and we're as boned against them as they are.

There's problems with every plan, I weighed up the options I decided on one. So far I've yet to be convinced that the detriments it has outweigh the positive ones.

My issue is not with you but bandwagoning in general when people start pointing out flaws in a plan that gets a lot of votes from someone that tends to get bandwagoned. What's really annoying though is when it seems like people tend to ignore other people's points since they don't add their reasoning for voting for a plan that a lot of people are criticising and pointing out flaws to.
I am not obligated to write out my reasoning for every (albeit few) votes I give, to say nothing of the fact that other people frequently give the rational in various forms.

It gets boring when people just start beating the dead horse.
 
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