I was wondering how strong Jade's soul really is, is there anything in the other planes that can actually destroy the gem? How strong was Kyubey's wish magic compared to the other planes I know that Madoka turned herself into a concept like time basically right? Although she was like the most op mg ever and does she even exist in this quest? So is her gem just the concept of unbreakable or immortal or something similar? Also what happens when her vessel is destroyed is she just helpless in gem form until someone gets her a new body?
I'm pretty sure I remember black holes being mentioned at some point, canonically yes but here she and Homura were subsumed into Walpurgisnacht, yes she does, for all intents and purposes Jade's soul is impossible to damage but other forms of soul manipulation are still possible, we haven't checked yet but probably.
 
[X] Yes, but you're only willing to give them what they could find on the other versions of Earth. You don't trust the Resistance to hold on to the details of more advanced technology, so anything you provide could be stolen by the Ethereals.
-[X] Also, if they connect whatever storage mediums you give them to something important, you'll need to have a long talk with them about proper cybersecurity.
 
I suggest we go a bit mercenary on this question. She's basically asking us for stuff without making an offer herself, but the security issue is pretty obvious. I wouldn't use it to shut her down, rather, turn this into a negotiation that gets them to try to commit. Also while Agneyastra makes a distinction between specific tech-bases, there's no need to give away that information to XCOM for free. We don't even need to imply that tech levels are significantly different.
In general, agreed. I think we should offer something inconsequential for free first, to establish credentials as it was, but in general agreed. There is also a matter of this being a humanitarian / military aid as opposed to a trade, at least from some perspective.

[X] Call Doctor Vahlen out for not saying hello. You wanted to contact XCOM specifically and she doesn't even admit when you succeed? Rude.
-[X] Also, shouldn't you at least be having this chat in a more secure venue? Dumping loads of intel is good for getting their attention and trust, but now that you actually have the first of those two, you really should be going.
--[X] Ideally one where you can actually make sure you are talking with XCOM instead of someone pretending to be them

[X] That depends on what you receive in return. Anything you trade them will likely end up in the hands of the Ethereals given time, so there are limits, but at the same time you've access to multiple planes with divergent development.
-[X] Query Agneyastra for suggestions on initial offers while you talk.
-[X] You understand how dire their situation is, and are willing to help, of course, but you also have other commitments that would benefit greatly from their help
-[X] Provide entertainment media for free

[X] Ask the Pilgrims if they could please let you in now. You'd like a real chair and maybe something to drink.
-[X] If they say no, pull a chair out of Agneyastra and a fresh drink.
 
I was wondering how strong Jade's soul really is, is there anything in the other planes that can actually destroy the gem? How strong was Kyubey's wish magic compared to the other planes I know that Madoka turned herself into a concept like time basically right? Although she was like the most op mg ever and does she even exist in this quest? So is her gem just the concept of unbreakable or immortal or something similar? Also what happens when her vessel is destroyed is she just helpless in gem form until someone gets her a new body?

Madoka was actually pretty normal before Homura started Time looping. Because the focus of Homura's wish was on saving Madoka, she literally became more important to the Universe at large. And as each loop came and went, her potental grew as karma and timelines overlapped. By the last timeline she had so much karmic potential built up that she could wish to become an abstract concept. That was why she was so powerful,as a side effect of Homura's time looping.

Madokami was an edge case, yes, but PMMM magic is still a really strong magic system with basically arbitrary abilities. Homura could stop and reverse time, Kyoko was a powerful illusionist and duplicator, Mami was a master of razor wire and gun-fu who could also create doppelgangers, Sayaka was basically Wolverine, and all Magical Girls seem to be capable of crazy physics-breaking shonen-level physical feats, if only in short bursts (constrained by the limits of their magical reserves, presumably).

Witches are even more powerful (again, presumably because they're not constrained by the need to vent corruption). Their bodies and the pocket dimensions they lurk inside of are both conjured up entirely out of their corrupted magic, they can casually mindrape muggles into being their puppets, and they all have unique powers just like Magical Girls do. Itzli was capable of interstellar travel, for instance, and even if she was another special case, Walpurgisnacht was basically an unsurpassable city-destroying narrative obstruction.

I can't say whether the PMMM universe has been nerfed in this quest, or just pushed into the background by Nanoha magic (bigger booms) and Mana magic (even more versatility), but it's not hard to argue in favor of its power levels. Kyubey in particular is an interstellar species who implemented all elements of the PMMM magic system except for its limits (the balance of hope and despair) and who was able to block the influence of an omnipresent cosmic principle (i.e. Madokami). If he says he made Jade's soul indestructible, then I'm willing to take him at face value, and I wouldn't expect anything with less resources than him to put a dent in it.
 
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[X] Call Doctor Vahlen out for not saying hello. You wanted to contact XCOM specifically and she doesn't even admit when you succeed? Rude.
-[X] Also, shouldn't you at least be having this chat in a more secure venue? Dumping loads of intel is good for getting their attention and trust, but now that you actually have the first of those two, you really should be going.
--[X] Ideally one where you can actually make sure you are talking with XCOM instead of someone pretending to be them

[X] That depends on what you receive in return. Anything you trade them will likely end up in the hands of the Ethereals given time, so there are limits, but at the same time you've access to multiple planes with divergent development.
-[X] Query Agneyastra for suggestions on initial offers while you talk.
-[X] You understand how dire their situation is, and are willing to help, of course, but you also have other commitments that would benefit greatly from their help
-[X] Provide entertainment media for free

[X] Ask the Pilgrims if they could please let you in now. You'd like a real chair and maybe something to drink.
-[X] If they say no, pull a chair out of Agneyastra and a fresh drink.

So Vahlen remains with XCOM in this timeline.
 
-[X] Also, shouldn't you at least be having this chat in a more secure venue? Dumping loads of intel is good for getting their attention and trust, but now that you actually have the first of those two, you really should be going.
--[X] Ideally one where you can actually make sure you are talking with XCOM instead of someone pretending to be them

Don't think we want these two sub-votes. Obviously we'd want to move things indoors, but personally I'm more than willing to stick around and keep talking until they evacuate. (May have to pawn Q&A off to Agneyastra acting through a Parasite at some point, though.)

The second sub-vote is contradictory with calling Dr. Vahlen out. If we demonstrate we know we're talking to the head scientist of XCOM, why would we claim to be concerned about imposters?
 
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[x] Tech trades are certainly one of your objectives, but you have to balance what you get against the likelihood that everything you share will make ADVENT and the Chosen more of a pain to deal with.
[X] Speaking of which, you think you'd prefer to discuss the more concrete details in a slightly more secure environment.
-[x] Ask Agneyastra for ideas about what offers to lead with.
[X] In the meantime, to speed things up when it's time for you to support your claims, is there anything that's believed to be impossible for their tech-base and psionics?
-[X] If they say no, pull a chair out of Agneyastra and a fresh drink.
I strongly oppose revealing this capability at this time. Being able to pull a bomb or jet fighter or squad of predators out of storage, or put one into it, is one of those capabilities that, if metered out carefully, might buy us four or five Chosen kills.
 
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Do we actually know they built the magic system?

As an engineering problem within a set of constraints, probably, but yes.

Kyubey justifies too many of the features of the magic system as intentional and useful design decisions (e.g. Soul Gems being able to block pain and remotely puppet their bodies) for it to be something they discovered in whole cloth.
 
[x] Tech trades are certainly one of your objectives, but you have to balance what you get against the likelihood that everything you share will make ADVENT and the Chosen more of a pain to deal with.
[X] Speaking of which, you think you'd prefer to discuss the more concrete details in a slightly more secure environment.
-[x] Ask Agneyastra for ideas about what offers to lead with.
[X] In the meantime, to speed things up when it's time for you to support your claims, is there anything that's believed to be impossible for their tech-base and psionics?
I like this a lot.
I strongly oppose revealing this capability at this time. Being able to pull a bomb or jet fighter or squad of predators out of storage, or put one into it, is one of those capabilities that, if metered out carefully, might buy us four or five Chosen kills.
We need to explain that we have some sort of manufacturing capability, though. Or something with us.

[X] Call Doctor Vahlen out for not saying hello. You wanted to contact XCOM specifically and she doesn't even admit when you succeed? Rude.

[x] Tech trades are certainly one of your objectives, but you have to balance what you get against the likelihood that everything you share will make ADVENT and the Chosen more of a pain to deal with.
[X] Speaking of which, you think you'd prefer to discuss the more concrete details in a slightly more secure environment.
-[x] Ask Agneyastra for ideas about what offers to lead with.
-[X] Ask the Pilgrims if they could please let you in now. You'd like a real chair and maybe something to drink.
[X] You are willing to share entertainment media for now, as that doesn't represent security risks
[X] In the meantime, to speed things up when it's time for you to support your claims, is there anything that's believed to be impossible for their tech-base and psionics?

[X] If something more secure is provided call Doctor Vahlen out for not saying hello. You wanted to contact XCOM specifically and she doesn't even admit when you succeed? Rude.

EDIT:
We also want to request a drink and to come in. This is social dynamics, in my opinion.

EDIT2: Added calling Vhalen out in a more secure environment. Operational security is to be respected, after all, but we want to indicate that we know of XCOM too, not just etherials.
 
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Also, the "don't let her in" thing is probably half-intended to see what we do in response to being made to stand around waiting. Let's not be the guy in the crime drama comedy that gets uncomfortable and starts babbling and giving everything away because someone sat there and stared silently at them for thirty seconds.

Also, trying to force the point is going to start looking suspicious and maybe threatening.

Other thoughts that are important: That bit about the Chosen spending a couple weeks training after every death? That's the universe telling us that we'll never be able to kill a Chosen in the same way twice. We have six Chosen that each need to die eight or ten times. We need sixty different ways to kill a Chosen. This is 100% going to be entirely down to everyone being very, very careful, over a large number of votes, to let out a very small, steady drip of new capabilities exactly when they would be most effective. Every time we throw something out for shits and giggles it means we have to find a few more ways to kill a Chosen. So please weigh that against every "pull a cold drink out of storage" vote - is it worth the pain and shitstorms and stress of having to fight a Chosen when we've already killed it eight times and it's on its last life and wise to all of our tricks? Because that's the trade-off. You can either have a cheap one-line laugh now, or you can finish off a Chosen by pulling a laser rifle out of storage and blowing its completely unsuspecting head off.
We need to explain that we have some sort of manufacturing capability, though. Or something with us.
Not yet, though, which is the entire point of my vote. And the chair doesn't at all imply manufacturing capabilities.
We also want to request a drink and to come in.
I still think we're better off waiting, if only so we can watch XCOM'S flight come in.
 
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Also, the "don't let her in" thing is probably half-intended to see what we do in response to being made to stand around waiting. Let's not be the guy in the crime drama comedy that gets uncomfortable and starts babbling and giving everything away because someone sat there and stared silently at them for thirty seconds.

Too late, we're a teenager. /s
Other thoughts that are important: That bit about the Chosen spending a couple weeks training after every death? That's the universe telling us that we'll never be able to kill a Chosen in the same way twice. We have six Chosen that each need to die eight or ten times. We need sixty different ways to kill a Chosen. This is 100% going to be entirely down to everyone being very, very careful, over a large number of votes, to let out a very small, steady drip of new capabilities exactly when they would be most effective. Every time we throw something out for shits and giggles it means we have to find a few more ways to kill a Chosen. So please weigh that against every "pull a cold drink out of storage" vote - is it worth the pain and shitstorms and stress of having to fight a Chosen when we've already killed it eight times and it's on its last life and wise to all of our tricks? Because that's the trade-off. You can either have a cheap one-line laugh now, or you can finish off a Chosen by pulling a laser rifle out of storage and blowing its completely unsuspecting head off.

Is there any reason why we can't gemsmash them destroy their Soul Obelisks? It would be much more of an assault but if we want them dead then I don't see why we should play cat and mouse with their disposable bodies.

(Not particularly arguing against hiding our capabilities, btw.)
 
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I strongly oppose revealing this capability at this time. Being able to pull a bomb or jet fighter or squad of predators out of storage, or put one into it, is one of those capabilities that, if metered out carefully, might buy us four or five Chosen kills.

I think revealing subspace to XCOM is worth it if it helps convince them we're the real deal. It's a very unique capability that is probably not easily replicable with this world's tech or soul magic, and would help lend some credibility to the (objectively ridiculous) notion that Jade is:
  1. from another dimension with divergent advanced technology
  2. Royalty operating independently on a dangerous, freshly-scouted world (a subspace pocket makes it possible to carry as many tools as she needs)
  3. wandering around a hot jungle in full regalia (she wasn't, but recently changed into clothes drawn out of subspace)
  4. physically capable of transporting/collecting a large quantity of alien material without being affiliated with ADVENT
Furthermore, I don't believe we have much chance of keeping this capability hidden for long; it's likely to be caught on camera the moment Jade attacks an ADVENT facility and begins stuffing large items into her bracelet. My impression is ADVENT cities and facilities are covered with surveillance, and Agneyastra currently can't hack any of it.
 
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Not yet, though, which is the entire point of my vote. And the chair doesn't at all imply manufacturing capabilities.
It implies either flash manufacturing, or extradimensional storage of large capacity, which can be filled with manufacturing equipment.
I still think we're better off waiting, if only so we can watch XCOM'S flight come in.
We might be, but I doubt it.

Also note, I added calling Vhalen out, to indicate that we know who we are talking to, but only after we are in a more secure environment.
 
We should destroy the Soulbelisks, it's a lot faster than cat-and-mousing 60 different unique ways to kill a chosen and also forces the Ethereals to build new Soulbelisks if they want more Chosen.
 
I think revealing subspace to XCOM is worth it if it helps convince them we're the real deal. It's a very unique capability that is probably not easily replicable with this world's tech or soul magic, and would help lend some credibility to the (objectively ridiculous) notion that Jade is:
  1. from another dimension with divergent advanced technology
  2. Royalty operating independently on a dangerous, freshly-scouted world (a subspace pocket makes it possible to carry as many tools as she needs)
  3. wandering around a hot jungle in full regalia (she wasn't, but recently changed into clothes drawn out of subspace)
  4. physically capable of transporting/collecting a large quantity of alien material without being affiliated with ADVENT
Furthermore, I don't believe we have much chance of keeping this capability hidden for long; it's likely to be caught on camera the moment Jade attacks an ADVENT facility and begins stuffing things into her bracelet. My impression is ADVENT cities and facilities are covered with surveillance, and Agneyastra currently can't hack any of it.
Yes, but we can do all of that once the person that knows about it is Dr. Vahlen, not a bunch of random Pilgrims that are probably ADVENT intelligence targets numbers three through eight right now, plus whoever's anywhere near the communications channel these people have open with XCOM and whoever else they're talking to. And I don't actually think that it's a useful ability to reveal at all. There's a reason why I'm asking them to tell us what they can't do - until we know they we're just stabbing the darkness, and as previously described we need to be planning ahead and efficiently managing information reveals. As for it being demonstrated the first time we hit an ADVENT facility... that's what cooperation with XCOM is for. Also, getting the kills in with the likely-to-be-revealed-first abilities first is exactly the kind of planning ahead that I was talking about. For this event, literally all we have to do is ask them to drop us, with all of our stuff, in the middle of a field somewhere, and the won't know anything about what we do with it afterwards. The pile of materials we're thinking of trading can be handled similarly, especially since we know where a few other caches are.
 
Yes, but we can do all of that once the person that knows about it is Dr. Vahlen, not a bunch of random Pilgrims that are probably ADVENT intelligence targets numbers three through eight right now, plus whoever's anywhere near the communications channel these people have open with XCOM and whoever else they're talking to. And I don't actually think that it's a useful ability to reveal at all.

You have a point about not revealing it in front these Pilgrims, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree on whether subspace is a useful ability to deliberately reveal to XCOM. Personally, it's near the top of my list of "things we should demonstrate to prove Jade's from another dimension," since without subspace Jade's claimed logistical capabilities simply do not make any sense.

Look at it from XCOM's perspective: if we drop off several tons worth alien material at an abandoned location to be later picked up, they're inevitably going to wonder how the heck Jade stole and transported it. The number 1 theory will undoubtedly be "she's a Chosen, and got ADVENT to help." It's in our interests to clear that misunderstanding up at the first opportunity.​
 
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Look at it from XCOM's perspective: if we drop off several tons worth alien material at an abandoned location to be picked up, they're inevitably going to wonder how the heck Jade stole and transported it. The number 1 theory will undoubtedly be "she's a Chosen, and got ADVENT to help." It's in our interests to clear that misunderstanding up at the first opportunity.
Or "she has some other capability that she's keeping up her sleeve that explains it". The Chosen are not the only people on the planet with heavy-lift capacity; we could have stolen a car and hacked ourselves a driver's license. Or the technology that we use to travel between planes could be one of the types of portal that takes all inorganics in a five-meter radius with us and we just teleport it back and forth. Or we could be traveling between planes using a specially-outfitted spaceship and we used that while they weren't looking. Or we could be carrying it telekinetically and behind a pile of illusions. We could have teleported it to another spot on the planet's surface and we have to go there to retrieve it. And so on and so forth. Yes, they would infer that we have some capability that we're not demonstrating. But I think that the big thing is that we have absolutely no reason to believe that this capability is evidence that we aren't actually a Chosen. For all we know, subspace is one of their signature abilities! That purple light that picked up the Hunter's soul took its body with it, remember? Which is why, instead of making assumptions about what they can't do, we need to investigate a little bit. There are zero benefits from revealing it now and all sorts of downsides.
 
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[X] Call Doctor Vahlen out for not saying hello. You wanted to contact XCOM specifically and she doesn't even admit when you succeed? Rude.
-[X] Also, shouldn't you at least be having this chat in a more secure venue? Dumping loads of intel is good for getting their attention and trust, but now that you actually have the first of those two, you really should be going.
--[X] Ideally one where you can actually make sure you are talking with XCOM instead of someone pretending to be them

[X] That depends on what you receive in return. Anything you trade them will likely end up in the hands of the Ethereals given time, so there are limits, but at the same time you've access to multiple planes with divergent development.
-[X] Query Agneyastra for suggestions on initial offers while you talk.
-[X] You understand how dire their situation is, and are willing to help, of course, but you also have other commitments that would benefit greatly from their help
-[X] Provide entertainment media for free

[X] Ask the Pilgrims if they could please let you in now. You'd like a real chair and maybe something to drink.
-[X] If they say no, pull a chair out of Agneyastra and a fresh drink.
 
I strongly oppose revealing this capability at this time. Being able to pull a bomb or jet fighter or squad of predators out of storage, or put one into it, is one of those capabilities that, if metered out carefully, might buy us four or five Chosen kills.
I have to admit, we probably do tend to grossly underestimate just how blatantly overpowered Jade's "malletspace' ability can be.

Other thoughts that are important: That bit about the Chosen spending a couple weeks training after every death? That's the universe telling us that we'll never be able to kill a Chosen in the same way twice. We have six Chosen that each need to die eight or ten times. We need sixty different ways to kill a Chosen. This is 100% going to be entirely down to everyone being very, very careful, over a large number of votes, to let out a very small, steady drip of new capabilities exactly when they would be most effective. Every time we throw something out for shits and giggles it means we have to find a few more ways to kill a Chosen. So please weigh that against every "pull a cold drink out of storage" vote - is it worth the pain and shitstorms and stress of having to fight a Chosen when we've already killed it eight times and it's on its last life and wise to all of our tricks? Because that's the trade-off. You can either have a cheap one-line laugh now, or you can finish off a Chosen by pulling a laser rifle out of storage and blowing its completely unsuspecting head off.
That said, as Subrosian points out, it seems far more likely that we're going to kill the Chosen by some means other than attrition. I don't think "no, we need to keep our abilities hidden so we can find sixty different ways to kill a Chosen through ability exploits" is viable, if only because this quest would become hopelessly boring if we had sixty successive votes on how to come up with new innovative ways to kill Chosen. At some point we're probably going to have to figure out how to track them to their Obelisks. Or otherwise render them irrelevant.



[X] Call Doctor Vahlen out for not saying hello. You wanted to contact XCOM specifically and she doesn't even admit when you succeed? Rude.
-[X] Also, shouldn't you at least be having this chat in a more secure venue? Dumping loads of intel is good for getting their attention and trust, but now that you actually have the first of those two, you really should be going.
--[X] Ideally one where you can actually make sure you are talking with XCOM instead of someone pretending to be them

[X] That depends on what you receive in return. Anything you trade them will likely end up in the hands of the Ethereals given time, so there are limits, but at the same time you've access to multiple planes with divergent development.
-[X] Query Agneyastra for suggestions on initial offers while you talk.
-[X] You understand how dire their situation is, and are willing to help, of course, but you also have other commitments that would benefit greatly from their help
-[X] Provide entertainment media for free
 
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The call-out is completely unnecessary. We can just act like we know we're talking to XCOM, which my vote suggestion does, and then do something like "Bye Dr. Valen" at the end. All we do by acting petulant is undermine ourselves. Please stop voting to do this. It is a bad idea.
 
The call-out is completely unnecessary. We can just act like we know we're talking to XCOM, which my vote suggestion does, and then do something like "Bye Dr. Valen" at the end. All we do by acting petulant is undermine ourselves. Please stop voting to do this. It is a bad idea.
Yes. We are trying to be friendly. This isn't friendly. It might have been friendly if we were good friends and knew that it'd be taken as a joke. The tone here, in this context, without her having introduced herself? Nope, that's a straight-up threat - "Remember how I said I know how many body swaps the Chosen have left? I know things about you too, don't worry."
 
I dunno. Acting grumpy because we feel disrespected, while continuing to display casual awareness of information that would be momentous by X-COM's standards, might well help establish our bona fides.

Anyone remember the fable, The Princess and the Pea?

An outside agent working for the Ethereals, but posing as a space princess, would be very calm and sensible and levelheaded. Because everything they do, they do for the sake of an overriding plan to infiltrate, and they're almost certainly going to subordinate their pride to the plan.

A real space princess, by contrast, has expectations. :p
 
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I dunno. Acting grumpy because we feel disrespected, while continuing to display casual awareness of information that would be momentous by X-COM's standards, might well help establish our bona fides.

Anyone remember the fable, The Princess and the Pea?

An outside agent working for the Ethereals, but posing as a space princess, would be very calm and sensible and levelheaded. Because everything they do, they do for the sake of an overriding plan to infiltrate, and they're almost certainly going to subordinate their pride to the plan.

A real space princess, by contrast, has expectations. :p

This feels like a postrationalization, tbh.
 
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