Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Oh hey i wasn't aware you were writing this quest and had perfect knowledge of the character's motives and what they'd do in hypothetical situations. anything else you'd like to declare?
Ignition (MTG/Multicross, Planeswalker PC)
- Thread starter Alivaril
- Start date
-
- Tags
- fairy tail magi: the labyrinth of magic magic the gathering magical girl lyrical nanoha (magical girl) puella magi madoka magica rwby alternate universe spoilers unreliable narrator earned your happy middle feedback appreciated life slowly gets better metaknowledge is overrated never too much fire setting knowledge not required this can only end well what could possibly go wrong?
Not really. XCOM is an extreme response project activated under extreme circumstances as a survival method for the species. It does not govern humanity. Etherials do. To etherials "ruthlessly dominate other species" is a norm completely in line with their morality. XCOM is amoral, and is pragmatic. And it's a response only, it's not a proactive measure. XCOM was only activated after the invasion began.
You are comparing "morality of a serial killer rapist" (ethierlas) to "late term abortion after incestual rape" (XCOM). One is a state of being and governing philosophy. The other is an action in response to external stimulus.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I hate morality debates. Can we just ignore morals and just focus on how to explot this plane for our benefit?
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Remember how jade felt about magnostadt and the Goi being farmed? morality seems to be a rather important element of her decision making.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I wrote a large paragraph explaining why I do not believe that to be the case. XCOM may have only been activated when the invasion began but, between existing traumas, the damage done to humanity by the Ethereals and by XCOM itself, and the state of the plane it's in in Ignition, I do not believe that it's capable of deescalation. And this is not a hypothetical failure mode: Brunei has been under martial law continuously since 1962, Egypt has been under martial law continuously since 1967, Syria since 1963, Taiwan between 1949 to 1987, etc. Drawing from fictional sources, well, does "we have always been at war with east-asia" ring any bells?
@Alivaril: Is XCOM currently operating as a "government"?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Mostly I just figure that we don't care about punishment just making things better so it doesn't actually matter who the worst guys are. What matters is what we plan to do and if that will improve things.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Good, we can skip the entire argument. Ethereals and XCOM both need to burn. Done, now let's figure out how to do it. Sound good?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
In that case our current priority is just to take as much as we can. We have many other planes where our efforts should actually be able to cause unambiguous improvement. Trying to fix thing here right now doesn't seem highest priority. This plane sucks, but it is the stable sort of sucks where we don't currently have a magic bullet to fix things.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
If it's anything like the game XCOM's almost entirely soft power outside of their avenger, they don't control refugee havens or have any ground bases, even their radio relays are something they build for the independant havens and don't really control.
even if they went full madmen i find it unlikely they will be able to establish any sort of government without popular support. all the tech in the world can only do so much with limited forces and a single staging point.
- Location
- A Table Near You
<carefully backs away from the morality debate, for that way lies madness>
The vote looks to have stabilized somewhat, but I don't suppose I can convince anyone still on the fence to try Blue channeling? It seems like a pretty acceptable compromise between immediately retreating, and satisfying Jade's need to do something. Even if Blue-Jade and Agneyastra can't think of anything sufficiently low-risk, the attempt should at least help assuage Jade's conscience.
The vote looks to have stabilized somewhat, but I don't suppose I can convince anyone still on the fence to try Blue channeling? It seems like a pretty acceptable compromise between immediately retreating, and satisfying Jade's need to do something. Even if Blue-Jade and Agneyastra can't think of anything sufficiently low-risk, the attempt should at least help assuage Jade's conscience.
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For X-com - save humanity, then they are likely to disband or at least stand down. For etherials - conquer them.
- Location
- Bowling Green
Considering that they just spent the last few decades fighting ADVENT whose whole claim is uplifting and saving humanity, and the Ethereals have already pulled a con of 'I'm not an ethereal here to help' I doubt that XCOM would disband unless we forced them.
Also, once the Ethereals get taken out, all the aliens on earth that start breaking free of the mind control will still be on earth, so the war is still going to continue just against a lot of smaller factions who now don't have a common enemy.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Why not channel blue if we can't think of anything?
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We can leave after we help humanity and reap the benefits. Or we can be upfront about who we are.
Sure, no problem, discussing strategy before implementing it is how it should go.
What we should discuss as players is, assuming we go with Agneyastra's plan in at least some way, what we should give out / disclose. Because as you noticed, I have severe reservations and unconventional opinions on what it is best to disclose.
- Location
- Germany
Stable, yes, but it's unclear whether the "channel Blue, retreat if it doesn't help" gets the -2 vote malus. If it doesn't, it's actually in the lead.
I still hope that some of the "retreat immediately" faction will switch over. Winning because of that malus would be dissatisfying.
Even if Blue-Jade retreats (there's not much she can do with 1 Blue mote and at most 40% LC level after fire conversion) we at least tried finding a solution, which is important for Jade's conscience.
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For all your talk about debating tactics, you are all too happy to sweep all the uncertainty of your assumptions and extrapolations under the rug. Let's hold the burning until it is evident that they aren't going to stand down.
Unless the malus doesn't apply separately to each variant of how to leave, instead being a thing for the leaving option in general.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
I mean, I think it's entirely valid to be concerned over morality when Vebyast appears to have a completely warped perception of how the setting works, to the point where he considers XCOM to be some sort of Alex Jones Infowars antagonist who are essentially the Devil incarnate and only refrain from going full turbo-Hitler because they're too busy being turbo-bin Laden at the moment.
That's an extraordinary claim, and he hasn't offered the kind of extraordinary evidence that would justify it. @Vebyast, if you want to sell me on this, then show me a cited quote of XCOM leadership actively discussing how they'll start building the death camps and firing the ovens the moment the Ethereals are defeated. Show me a cutscene or a lore entry that shows XCOM high command making preparations for the galactic reconquista.
[X] Channel Blue.
-[X] Receive feedback from Agneyastra on possible low-risk strategies.
-[X] If no good plans are forthcoming, retreat while the parasite droids are destroyed. Self-destruct them only if the Hunter comes too close or doesn't shoot them.
-[X] In case of retreat, continue looking for outposts where Parasites can steal non-essential technologies, especially soul scanners.
-[X] Receive feedback from Agneyastra on possible low-risk strategies.
-[X] If no good plans are forthcoming, retreat while the parasite droids are destroyed. Self-destruct them only if the Hunter comes too close or doesn't shoot them.
-[X] In case of retreat, continue looking for outposts where Parasites can steal non-essential technologies, especially soul scanners.
- Location
- A single human dimension
- Pronouns
- She/Her
...I don't remember that scene...? ._. They basically worshipped The Great Commandy One to the very end. Is that something from The Bureau?
Anyway, as far as Jade knows, XCOM has some serious issues with how they treat their enemies and those who seem to knowingly help them, but being bloodthirsty genocidal maniacs is not one of their issues. Aside from ADVENT propaganda, they don't go after hospitals, gene clinics, dams, or other civilian targets.* The closest they get is destroying the occasional armament factory with some civilian technicians, and even then, they try to wait until after hours and make a good-faith attempt to evacuate civilians.
*One of their other problems is that they don't seem to consider important technicians or officials to be "civilians." They do brief captured VIPs on some of the worse ADVENT activities and give them a chance to join after being more well-informed, but if that's turned down, the results aren't pretty.
Busy today, but the short answer to this is "Not really?" It's more of along the lines of close allies. XCOM provides some advice, intel, and equipment, but doesn't actually rule the various Resistance factions.
Jade doesn't think XCOM's current members would want to stay in effective command longer than they have to. They're getting old and have seen some rather horrifying sights over the course of the decades-long war. The bigger risk isn't of them taking control, but of setting up a space fleet to ensure the Ethereals don't come back once they're driven away, which... is actually a legitimate concern.
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
I disagree with pretty much all of this. V, "the ends justify the means" is not an absolute state of affairs for most people. It's a spectrum of what they're willing to do under what circumstances. XCOM is motivated by empathy and a need to protect people, not by a need to conquer or control, and they're not motivated by xenophobia, either. And you do recall that the Ethereals tried to take the Commander over at the end, right? Because that's how I recall it playing out. Psionic clash for control, everything explodes.
Your entire argument feels incredibly fallacious and emotionally charged to me, which makes you calling anyone else out on it really weird. I can't name the exact fallacies myself, not having a strong education in them, but it reminds me of Slippery Slope or Black-and-White thinking. "XCOM did bad things in a war scenario under extreme conditions, therefore they will do it if in-charge of post-war rebuilding" seems to be the whole point of your argument, and I don't think it holds up. Because people do lots of sh*t under those pressures they wouldn't otherwise. If a person kills in self-defense, are you going to assume they'll do it when they're not threatened? If not, what's the difference between that and this? I don't see it.
...My dude, the Codex is a machine with no nerve endings or concept of pain. Also, XCOM works with the Skirmishers, aka guys who got alien DNA shoved into them, without wanting to purge them. So, no, I disagree with all of this. Any "purge" would come about because, even without the Ethereals guiding them, the aliens are aggressive (see the Alien Rulers and the introductory mission especially), and are basically living weapons at this point. Maybe some treaty might be reached with some of them, but most would just keep fighting, I suspect.
I think they'll probably get to work rebuilding things on Earth, maybe do some intergalactic travel once that's over, and treat any aliens they encounter carefully until they know where they stand with them, and if an alliance is feasible. Again, I think we disagree about what the main motive that drives XCOM is (xenophobia vs compassion and empathy for the people the aliens have harmed), and I don't think either of us can know we're right without meeting Ignition's XCOM.
Yeah, again, no, that's, like, your opinion, man. You're stating your interpretation of events as fact. It is not. And you lack the data to back any of this to the degree you would normally demand other people back their claims. Your one citation was without context and incredibly weak with it. You're capable of more coherent reasoning than this emotionally charged, violently vitriolic argument, and I'm really not sure what the hell is driving any of this, because it reads like you're more pissed off than a Red Sox fan would be if/when (I don't do sports-ball much) they lost the last game of the World Series, pre-Bambino's Curse being broken. Calm down, or just stop discussing this, because I am genuinely worried about your health if you continue.
See above. If memory serves, they weren't quite certain who won the final psionic showdown between the Elders and the Commander at first, and who was in his body.
About what I expected. So yeah, they're not much like what V is describing. Maybe they have a bias against space aliens, but they might not, too.
Edit: Okay, to be fair, stuff does get destroyed during firefights in cities sometimes, in-game, and civilians do sometimes die in the process. And some players might be rather cruel with mind-controlled enemies, like having them chuck grenades at their own feet, or using those orb guys to revive dead civilians as zombies. But it's not exactly much worse than any urban firefight with the weapons involved might be expected to be, and it's also XCOM troops fighting for their lives. Sure, I've accidentally killed a civilian or two with grenades during XCOM, or, far more often, gotten them killed because they were too close to my troops and the aliens used an AoE attack. But that's war for you: sh*t happens.
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