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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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Shard said:
3. I consider Major Cities to be significantly and notably more vulnerable than Small Hives, due to population capacity and increased defenses from the latter.
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The other stuff is debatable, but here I think you're looking at it the wrong way. In Tarascon we will have a single city which is too distant to receive any reinforcements in a timely fashion should the planet be attacked. If someone wanted to seize as many possible examples of our technology, their best bet would be to attain orbital dominance (which they need to do to land anyways), and send all their troops to attack the Lonely Mountain, get in, steal everything they can and then leave. The city will have only what troops we initially send there, and no city is close enough to send troops to it to bail it out. Or alternatively, if Orks wanted to establish an actual base on the planet and seriously dig in? That's an ideal location for them to do so, with lots of high end tech to loot. Our Major Cities do not have these problems. Reinforcements for them are available by rail, air, and even ground if needed.

Further, there's good political reason to develop Tarascon. We seem to be leaning towards having Syr marry an Asgardian Knight, and the possibility of founding a branch Knight House and giving them a region to rule so that we can field our own Knights is enticing. Even more so now that we can make Psi-Knights. And a region with a theme around dragons is perfect for knights.
 
Enjou said:
The other stuff is debatable, but here I think you're looking at it the wrong way. In Tarascon we will have a single city which is too distant to receive any reinforcements in a timely fashion should the planet be attacked. If someone wanted to seize as many possible examples of our technology, their best bet would be to attain orbital dominance (which they need to do to land anyways), and send all their troops to attack the Lonely Mountain, get in, steal everything they can and then leave. The city will have only what troops we initially send there, and no city is close enough to send troops to it to bail it out. Or alternatively, if Orks wanted to establish an actual base on the planet and seriously dig in? That's an ideal location for them to do so, with lots of high end tech to loot. Our Major Cities do not have these problems. Reinforcements for them are available by rail, air, and even ground if needed.

Further, there's good political reason to develop Tarascon. We seem to be leaning towards having Syr marry an Asgardian Knight, and the possibility of founding a branch Knight House and giving them a region to rule so that we can field our own Knights is enticing. Even more so now that we can make Psi-Knights. And a region with a theme around dragons is perfect for knights.
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Only if we can call them House Ascalon or something similar.

House Siegfried, if we must stay in the Norse theme.
 
Enjou said:
Sigurd would be the proper Norse version, though we could do that so as to name it after the fallen Lord Marshal in his honor I suppose. House Gram would also work if you wanted to use a dragon slaying weapon as part of the theme.
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It's more just dragon slaying in general that I'd favor. Ascalon came to mind due to Tacit Ronin, honestly.

(Siegfried because sumanai memes)
 
Enjou said:
That's entirely besides the point. Just because we hypothetically could send a massive fleet on an offensive does not make it a good idea. We are now in a critical phase of development, and while a Waaagh from Tugozak's domain wouldn't break things making ourselves vulnerable to the powers that would just love to wreck us and take our stuff very much could.
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Thing is, in my opinion, sending ~third of our ships away for ~5 years wouldn't make us that vulnerable.

Durin commented a while ago that Chaos polities can't really commit more than half of their navy, and let's say that Waagh hit Amir-ka - though, if we have a choice, it might be better to send them at Assour. Anyway, if Waagh hit Amir-ka, Assour is the guy who would have the ability to hit our navy or raid colonies. He has ~10,000 capitals and ~150,000 escorts, which means what he can send is 5,000 capitals and 75,000 escorts. Fleet I want to send is ~2,500 capitals and ~20,000 escorts, now that I looked at our numbers, which means even if he commits the whole available force, he still has a very, very uncertain chances of winning - remember how we wrecked the Chron task force, which had comparable numbers? Sure, we had good rolls there, but it also was a higher quality DarkMech force with some of our tech, and we were without Ridcully.

Alright, so what if he decides to raid colonies, or even go full bore and attack a Core World? Well, at home, we still have ~4000 capitals and ~20,000 escorts, the benefit of orbital defences, plus whatever Dragons can send us, which was around 500 capitals and 5000 escorts last time, IIRC. But much more than that, because Assour doesn't have the whole divining-tracking system Turoq had, we can actually bring that fleet to bear with Ridcully's divinations, which means he would have even worse chances of succeeding than Turoq. And since I am sure Eldars can spare one escort to play courier for an ally, we can have Ridcully with us in the fleet, and him providing targets for raids, if can't get them beforehand. Plus, thanks to him not having the tracking system and our purge of infiltrators right now, he would probably not even know that we sent a fleet anywhere until some time passes, maybe even missing the period of relative weakness entirely.

Now, Assour likely has allies he can call on and get some ships from them, maybe contact Forgeworlds, but they would both not provide very much, and calling on them would take even more time, and our campaign in the Tugozak's domain would not be a protracted one - just quickly destroy orbitals and biggest industrial centers, lobbing Exterminatus weaponry at everything that would take too long to destroy. We should have a good stockpile of those right now.

In conclusion, I really don't think that sending a fleet to hit Tugozak after Waagh is as bad of an idea or would make us as vulnerable as you think.
 
agumentic said:
Thing is, in my opinion, sending ~third of our ships away for ~5 years wouldn't make us that vulnerable.

Durin commented a while ago that Chaos polities can't really commit more than half of their navy, and let's say that Waagh hit Amir-ka - though, if we have a choice, it might be better to send them at Assour. Anyway, if Waagh hit Amir-ka, Assour is the guy who would have the ability to hit our navy or raid colonies. He has ~10,000 capitals and ~150,000 escorts, which means what he can send is 5,000 capitals and 75,000 escorts. Fleet I want to send is ~2,500 capitals and ~20,000 escorts, now that I looked at our numbers, which means even if he commits the whole available force, he still has a very, very uncertain chances of winning - remember how we wrecked the Chron task force, which had comparable numbers? Sure, we had good rolls there, but it also was a higher quality DarkMech force with some of our tech, and we were without Ridcully.

Alright, so what if he decides to raid colonies, or even go full bore and attack a Core World? Well, at home, we still have ~4000 capitals and ~20,000 escorts, the benefit of orbital defences, plus whatever Dragons can send us, which was around 500 capitals and 5000 escorts last time, IIRC. But much more than that, because Assour doesn't have the whole divining-tracking system Turoq had, we can actually bring that fleet to bear with Ridcully's divinations, which means he would have even worse chances of succeeding than Turoq. And since I am sure Eldars can spare one escort to play courier for an ally, we can have Ridcully with us in the fleet, and him providing targets for raids, if can't get them beforehand. Plus, thanks to him not having the tracking system and our purge of infiltrators right now, he would probably not even know that we sent a fleet anywhere until some time passes, maybe even missing the period of relative weakness entirely.

Now, Assour likely has allies he can call on and get some ships from them, maybe contact Forgeworlds, but they would both not provide very much, and calling on them would take even more time, and our campaign in the Tugozak's domain would not be a protracted one - just quickly destroy orbitals and biggest industrial centers, lobbing Exterminatus weaponry at everything that would take too long to destroy. We should have a good stockpile of those right now.

In conclusion, I really don't think that sending a fleet to hit Tugozak after Waagh is as bad of an idea or would make us as vulnerable as you think.
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I think you're severely underestimating the issues with trying to manage any kind of long distance campaign. Again, even the QM came out and told you why this isn't as good of an idea as you seem to think it is.

Also, your argument here completely neglects the existence of the More'lumix's Realm. You're assuming that only one of the Chaos polities might try to hit us. You're also assuming that they only thing they could do is hit us at home... rather than say in the Ork domain we're attacking so they can steal hulks while our fleet is away from any possible reinforcements and do not have the advantage of the orbitals being on their side.

We are quite simply not in a position to go on major offensives right now. We couldn't even go on the offensive against Turoq. The only way we can safely go on the offensive against a distant polity is if we have a large enough fleet that we can send something that we're confident could well and truly deal with whatever we're up against, because anything else is risky. We'll get there, but we aren't there yet.
 
Enjou said:
Also, your argument here completely neglects the existence of the More'lumix's Realm. You're assuming that only one of the Chaos polities might try to hit us. You're also assuming that they only thing they could do is hit us at home... rather than say in the Ork domain we're attacking so they can steal hulks while our fleet is away from any possible reinforcements and do not have the advantage of the orbitals being on their side.

We are quite simply not in a position to go on major offensives right now. We couldn't even go on the offensive against Turoq. The only way we can safely go on the offensive against a distant polity is if we have a large enough fleet that we can send something that we're confident could well and truly deal with whatever we're up against, because anything else is risky. We'll get there, but we aren't there yet.
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I discount More'lumix's Realm because it's even farther away (though not as far as I thought, so it doesn't matter a lot), is much the same us Assour, and because Chaos polities are not known for their cooperation. They might also raid us, but Home Fleet should be enough to repel both even if they commit half of their fleets. And that's even if they would know.

Except I had entire second paragraph saying how attack on our expeditionary force is also a very uncertain proposition, because it has enough numbers? And how would they steal our hulks without committing to fleet battle, as we're faster than they are in the Materium even without accounting for towing?

We couldn't attack Turoq because he was a smart opponent who would immediately realize that we sent a fleet for him and could prepare his soldiers and ships, while we had less ships and defences, and were unable to concentrate our forces to properly deal with his attacks. None of this, to one degree or another, applies to the attack on Tugozak.
 
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I'm of the opinion that we're best off waiting a few turns for our resource production to pick up, get a few more research projects under our belt that help give us naval dominance, leverage the opportunity to a) build more ships with the savings from nanorepair and general production boost and b) make our own Navigator Houses to increase the number of warp-capable ships we can field. We already have a tech advantage, let us not neglect the numerical advantage as well.

Tangentially related, is working on Astartes Genetics Fundamentals a Biologis action? Because I'm thinking that the Blood Dragons' gene-seed flaws might become problematic for us when they get annexed, and if we don't have anything too pressing it seems like a problem we might nip in the bud.
 
ArchAIngel said:
Only if we can call them House Ascalon or something similar.

House Siegfried, if we must stay in the Norse theme.
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Enjou said:
Sigurd would be the proper Norse version, though we could do that so as to name it after the fallen Lord Marshal in his honor I suppose. House Gram would also work if you wanted to use a dragon slaying weapon as part of the theme.
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The House name is Thorvald and the Knight's name is Sigmund. The House name means powerful by thor and the Knight's name mean Victorious defender; victory, protection which considering we are going to be fighting dragons to protect other fits well. Not to mention it conveniently lines up really well with Sigmunds entire story and life until now. Just like I didn't realize that Sigmund was Sigurd's father's name when I chose it I also didn't know what Sigmund meant as a name until I started looking for a House name.
 
agumentic said:
I discount More'lumix's Realm because it's even farther away (though not as far as I thought, so it doesn't matter a lot), is much the same us Assour, and because Chaos polities are not known for their cooperation. They might also raid us, but Home Fleet should be enough to repel both even if they commit half of their fleets. And that's even if they would know.
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1. Distance does not matter as much to Chaos factions. They can travel significantly faster in the Warp than we can.
2. They don't have to cooperate. They can just attack us in separate places.
3. They'll very likely know. Especially the Tzeench polity.

agumentic said:
Except I had entire second paragraph saying how attack on our expeditionary force is also a very uncertain proposition, because it has enough numbers? And how would they steal our hulks without committing to fleet battle, as we're faster than they are in the Materium even without accounting for towing?
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Being significantly faster in the Warp would enable them to enter systems in such a way to force our forces to commit to a fleet battle. Just Warp in while our forces are already committed to facing the Orks, and then move towards them.

agumentic said:
We couldn't attack Turoq because he was a smart opponent who would immediately realize that we sent a fleet for him and could prepare his soldiers and ships, while we had less ships and defences, and were unable to concentrate our forces to properly deal with his attacks. None of this, to one degree or another, applies to the attack on Tugozak.
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The primary reasons we couldn't attack Turoq were due to distance and sending enough ships to actually make an effective attack making us vulnerable. These still apply to Tugozak's domain, even if to a lesser extent on the second thing. We are not yet at a point where sending a force on an offensive is not a significant risk. The mere five year campaign you propose would not make enough of a dent to make it worth our inevitable losses.


Adventwolf said:
The House name is Thorvald and the Knight's name is Sigmund. The House name means powerful by thor and the Knight's name mean Victorious defender; victory, protection which considering we are going to be fighting dragons to protect other fits well. Not to mention it conveniently lines up really well with Sigmunds entire story and life until now. Just like I didn't realize that Sigmund was Sigurd's father's name when I chose it I also didn't know what Sigmund meant as a name until I started looking for a House name.
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That's the guy's current house name. We're talking about a possible new house name for the house to be founded on Avernus.
 
Enjou said:
That's the guy's current house name. We're talking about a possible new house name for the house to be founded on Avernus.
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The House is more than likely going to be named after Sigmund himself. He has moved on from Sigurd's death at this point. He has honored him by helping his sister as Marshal and protecting and training his Sons.
 
Enjou said:
1. Distance does not matter as much to Chaos factions. They can travel significantly faster in the Warp than we can.
2. They don't have to cooperate. They can just attack us in separate places.
3. They'll very likely know. Especially the Tzeench polity.



Being significantly faster in the Warp would enable them to enter systems in such a way to force our forces to commit to a fleet battle. Just Warp in while our forces are already committed to facing the Orks, and then move towards them.



The primary reasons we couldn't attack Turoq were due to distance and sending enough ships to actually make an effective attack making us vulnerable. These still apply to Tugozak's domain, even if to a lesser extent on the second thing. We are not yet at a point where sending a force on an offensive is not a significant risk. The mere five year campaign you propose would not make enough of a dent to make it worth our inevitable losses.
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1. Distance does matter to Chaos polities, though not much, a 100 light years is 3-5 days on their cruise speed. But, since I thought More'lux are a bit farther than they are, I cede the point.
2. Yes, they could. But ~4000 capitals + Dragons is enough of a force to repel all of them, since this time around we can actually concentrate our forces, both in space and on the ground.
3. I don't see why, especially immediately. Divination could do the job, but they probably don't spend all their time divining our forces.


I am unsure what are you trying to say here. Okay, they could commit to a fleet battle, but that just means they have committed to a fleet battle they are not at all likely to win. Force composition would be similar to a battle with Chron, and lucky rolls or not, we completely wrecked a force that had ships superior to normal Chaos.

Well no, they don't, that's what I am arguing here. Distance in itself doesn't matter, and main reason we were vulnerable to Turoq's counterattack was because he could immediately say when we send ships out, leave us without ability to concentrate our forces and couldn't easily be caught in a trap. Since none of the three are true now, we are not vulnerable as we were to Turoq.

5 years campaign should be about enough, especially as we can just launch Cyclonic Torpedoes on the most entrenched worlds we would spend time taking.
 
Before I would even consider voting to start an offensive war the trust Navy would have to at minimum double in size and our colonies would have to start building fleets of their own and I'm not talking about defence cruisers and moniters
 
I've got a question can we develop different FTL? If we can we could make star trek FTL like the slipstream drive which went 300 lightyears an hour.
 
Centh97 said:
I've got a question can we develop different FTL? If we can we could make star trek FTL like the slipstream drive which went 300 lightyears an hour.
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Very much no. Non-Warp FTL is way out of our tech level, the only races who have it are Necrons with inertialless drives (who are still nowhere near 300ls/h), Eldar with Webway (which requires building and maintaining a galaxy spanning psytech gigastructure) and subspace drives Krork use (who are fast but ludicruosly power hungry to the point that only attack moons can use IIRC).
Improving our Warp drives however is not out of the question, especially is we use the major favor to get Eldar help.
 
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DeusFerreus said:
Very much no. Non-Warp way out of our tech level, the only races who have it are Necrons with inertialless drives (who are still nowhere near as fast), Eldar with Webway (which requires building and maintaining a galaxy spanning psytech gigastructure) and subspace drives Krork use (who are fast but ludicruosly power hungry to the point that only attack moons can use IIRC).
Improving our Warp drives however is not out of the question, especially is we use the major favor to get Eldar help.
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there is also the gravity manipulation that nids use but that is rather terrible inside a galaxy
 
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