Remove ads

The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
Reader mode
Doomed Wombat said:
Only if he knows we exist and he can do anything about it.

First he's got to deal with the Prophet then he's got to manage the aftermath, and then there's Vect with the disruption to Abbys domain coming from billions of narcissistic maniacs suddenly wanting their own piece of the pie, then the Nids, then the Dragon and of course Vulkan will still be in the back ground.

Basically I think fears that Abaddon will come after us are unfounded given the tidal wave of crap heading his direction in the next century or so.

There's no size we can reach which is big enough to be safe from Abaddon should he decide he wants to kill us, none, so he should barely be a consideration at this point.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I should point out that even combined with the Dragons Nest we will be trivially easy to crush and plunder for Abaddon as an afterthought. He probably doesn't even need to use more than a chapters worth of his own resources, offering all our Chaotic neighbors rank and favor in his Empire would be enough to get them to unite against us, and i doubt we can win against More'lumix, Amir'ka, Assour and the Nexx at the same time.

We should consider Abaddon, mainly in that we need to make sure he does not know about us, because as you rightly point out, we cannot grow quickly enough to not die if he decides to attack us. Therefore, not participating in these tech exchanges unless Ridcully and the Eldar can make sure we stay unnoticed is incredibly important.
 
In terms of chaos noticing it would probably be in the fact that our polities are suddenly advancing. In that regard it's basically impossible to hide chaos noticing the result of the first meeting at all. In that case might as well commit to it.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
This isn't just about tech ya know, its also about fostering bonds of cooperation and respect between the polities.

And there's other people we could bring in, the Blood Angels and Tau will probably be joining in (at least I hope) in the near future and I doubt they're the only other potential sane candidates.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Would meetings without technology transfer be safer? Or even extended communication through messengers?

And in general, I don't think increased cooperation is worth it. Other sane polities are veeeery far away, and chaos we threaten into uniting? All around us.
 
Shard said:
In terms of chaos noticing it would probably be in the fact that our polities are suddenly advancing. In that regard it's basically impossible to hide chaos noticing the result of the first meeting at all. In that case might as well commit to it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It should be mentioned though that we will advance the least of the participating polities, and that there are only a few relatively unimportant Chaos polities around us which already know we have incredibly advanced technology and keep some of it hidden. Our tech is not a galactic scale problem for Chaos as long as we stay relatively small and advanced, but if they find out that we shared it... We suddenly become a much bigger priority, because they need to catch up to the big human powers to win the game, and we are the easiest way of doing so.
 
thatguy said:
It might be possible to further obscure our involvement.
@Durin
1. Would putting our gains from the trade in a vault and sitting on them until desperate decrease our chance of being noticed?
2. What about doing all our research on Avernus?
3. Moving all our research to the invisible continent?(I understand that getting a facility on the edge of it would be a challenge, but if enough Trust troops are willing to die to do it it might be possible?)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
1. yes it would
2. ditto
3. unknown
 
Chronic said:
I should point out that even combined with the Dragons Nest we will be trivially easy to crush and plunder for Abaddon as an afterthought. He probably doesn't even need to use more than a chapters worth of his own resources, offering all our Chaotic neighbors rank and favor in his Empire would be enough to get them to unite against us, and i doubt we can win against More'lumix, Amir'ka, Assour and the Nexx at the same time.

We should consider Abaddon, mainly in that we need to make sure he does not know about us, because as you rightly point out, we cannot grow quickly enough to not die if he decides to attack us. Therefore, not participating in these tech exchanges unless Ridcully and the Eldar can make sure we stay unnoticed is incredibly important.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We're not so weak that he can just send a chapter after us, as I recall he'd need to send a lieutenant to make it effortless, thing is his lieutenants are a rare and valuable resource who each represent vast amounts of resources and power that they personally hold, resources that can be killing the latest level 3 or stomping that dumb tyranid hive fleet and offering these people recognition in his empire is not going to cut anything, nor how he does things.

While he could probably get them to unite a bit, they're still chaos and not at the danger level the necrons provoke we can take em so long as there isn't another Turoq among them.

And no that's why we can't think of him, its a waste of time. Its like sitting around on an active volcano you know the eruption could come at any minute and you have two options, either you create defences against it or you sit around and do nothing because creating the defences may poke the volcano to erupt a bit quicker. Personally I vote to do something.

PurposefulZephyr said:
Would meetings without technology transfer be safer? Or even extended communication through messengers?

And in general, I don't think increased cooperation is worth it. Other sane polities are veeeery far away, and chaos we threaten into uniting? All around us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Doubtful, chaos is still going to be looking for the source of all this. Either we go in or we cut all contact.

They're not so far away we can't think of them and they only unite chaos locally.

We are not a Necron level threat, that's the only thing we know of right now that will cause a full unification, that an a Beast.

Chronic said:
It should be mentioned though that we will advance the least of the participating polities, and that there are only a few relatively unimportant Chaos polities around us which already know we have incredibly advanced technology and keep some of it hidden. Our tech is not a galactic scale problem for Chaos as long as we stay relatively small and advanced, but if they find out that we shared it...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Then we are no longer important.

Its spread out across the galaxy and we're the backwards end of no where, if people want to get it they can scavenge a Callamite battle field, or salvage a Quartius marine.

We're not suddenly going to become the centre of galactic tech theft.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
We need all the advantages we can get and we need them as soon as we can get them, the other polities can create conventional tech on a level we can't match, something which is going to accelerate at a massive pace thanks to them getting things like the supercogitators.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, we don't need all the advantages we can get. The last war was a curbstomp in our favour, and it was far from a trivial opponent. Between our current state, the tech we're about to get, and our alliance with the Eldar, we'll be fine. We don't need constant tech upgrades. The advantages aren't worth the risks.

I vote that the Trust should abstain from further meetings. Our size means obscurity would be a stronger advantage and we'd be the least contributive to further tech trades.
 
Andres110 said:
No, we don't need all the advantages we can get. The last war was a curbstomp in our favour, and it was far from a trivial opponent. Between our current state, the tech we're about to get, and our alliance with the Eldar, we'll be fine. We don't need constant tech upgrades. The advantages aren't worth the risks.

I vote that the Trust should abstain from further meetings. Our size means obscurity would be a stronger advantage and we'd be the least contributive to further tech trades.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nein the last war would have been much to our favour anyway. The enemies main advantage was that Turoq had common sense, and was able to leverage it effectively, the battle for asgard and muspelheim would have likely gone much the same seeing as we didn't get the see even a fraction of the tricks Surt had apparently got planned for defending the cities.

And we do need the constant upgrades, we need to constantly up gun as much as possible especially considering that this is the last prelude before everything gets set on fire again.

The only way it'd be to our disadvantage is if there was a certainty of us being discovered immediately, but as this is not the case by any stretch of the imagination I do not see many if any.

Though to check

@Durin
1. What is the chance of discovery whether we agree to further participation or not?
 
Doomed Wombat said:
We're not so weak that he can just send a chapter after us, as I recall he'd need to send a lieutenant to make it effortless, thing is his lieutenants are a rare and valuable resource who each represent vast amounts of resources and power that they personally hold, resources that can be killing the latest level 3 or stomping that dumb tyranid hive fleet and offering these people recognition in his empire is not going to cut anything, nor how he does things.

While he could probably get them to unite a bit, they're still chaos and not at the danger level the necrons provoke we can take em so long as there isn't another Turoq among them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Send a chapter of his legion as emissaries to make sure that the locals know he means buisness, promise them the favor of the Warlord and the gods as well as any and all technology they can find for themselves. For most Chaos polities that would be more than enough. You don't insult Abaddon by discarding his promises and get away with it, we are already a danger to them anyways and they want our tech. There is no reason for them not to work together.

Doomed Wombat said:
And no that's why we can't think of him, its a waste of time. Its like sitting around on an active volcano you know the eruption could come at any minute and you have two options, either you create defences against it or you sit around and do nothing because creating the defences may poke the volcano to erupt a bit quicker. Personally I vote to do something.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We can easily keep building defences without poking the volcano, so why risk a game over?

Doomed Wombat said:
Its spread out across the galaxy and we're the backwards end of no where, if people want to get it they can scavenge a Callamite battle field, or salvage a Quartius marine.

We're not suddenly going to become the centre of galactic tech theft.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We know from the Turoq campaign that if you have halfway competent tech denial protocols in place it is really damn hard to steal tech from people. Scavenging a Callamite battlefield is only going to give you scrap and maybe a few halfway working examples of tech that you would have to reverse engineer, probably without the advantages of advanced cogitators or a Learning Paragon with a reverse-engineering specialty.

You need to capture tech priests alive to get anywhere at all, and even that won't give you any quick or complete advancements. And even that isn't easy against an enemy the calibre of Callamus or Quartus.

Crushing a sector sized policy, conquering their forge Hives and taking all their stuff is much, much, much quicker in comparision. And Chaos knows as well as we do that we are moving towards another conflagration, so time is important to them as well.
 
Last edited:
Chronic said:
Send a chapter of his legion as emissaries to make sure that the locals know he means buisness, promise them the favor of the Warlord and the gods as well as any and all technology they can find for themselves. For most Chaos polities that would be more than enough. You don't insult Abaddon by discarding his promises and get away with it, we are already a danger to them anyways and they want our tech. There is no reason for them not to work together.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Apart from the fact that they are chaos.

Even if they unify on the surface I give it one good assassination attempt before any such coalition collapses on itself and a single chapter is not really a wonderful incentive to unification seeing as even Amrika has 10,000 of them, to say nothing of Assour.

Either he sends enough people to actually harm his war efforts else where or he focuses on the people who already have our stuff and he's already fighting, letting the scum fight us themselves.

Chronic said:
We can easily keep building defences without poking the volcano, so why risk a game over?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The volcano is still there regardless of what we do, the volcano was made a possibility because this tech trade, and while I will confirm the exact level of volcanoness when Durin returns, the volcano is now always going to be dangling over our heads.

Or under out feet in this analogy.

Chronic said:
We know from the Turoq campaign that if you have halfway competent tech denial protocols in place it is really damn hard to steal tech from people. Scavenging a Callamite battlefield is only going to give you scrap and maybe a few halfway working examples of tech that you would have to reverse engineer, probably without the advantages of advanced cogitators or a Learning Paragon with a reverse-engineering specialty.

You need to capture tech priests alive to get anywhere at all, and even that won't give you any quick or complete advancements. And even that isn't easy against an enemy the calibre of Callamus or Quartus.

Crushing a sector sized policy, conquering their forge Hives and taking all their stuff is much, much, much quicker in comparision.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Its hard to steal tech from anyone, but again we're out in the boonies and it is not so hard for them to do so to others if due to no other reason their size and scale.

Even if they just leverage their psyker advantage, dominating the crew of a dozen callamite ships with overwhelming psykers and suborning a few dozen battle congregations (made entirely of tech priests Callamus is quite literally putting them on the front lines) does not seem like something that is beyond Chaos's skills, to say nothing of the potential levels of chaos infiltration.

No they just need the advantage of a daemon world and the ability to pay. A paragon of learning is nice, but if they can foot the cost then chaos will provide the bastards.
 
Last edited:
Doomed Wombat said:
Nein the last war would have been much to our favour anyway. The enemies main advantage was that Turoq had common sense, and was able to leverage it effectively, the battle for asgard and muspelheim would have likely gone much the same seeing as we didn't get the see even a fraction of the tricks Surt had apparently got planned for defending the cities.

And we do need the constant upgrades, we need to constantly up gun as much as possible especially considering that this is the last prelude before everything gets set on fire again.

The only way it'd be to our disadvantage is if there was a certainty of us being discovered immediately, but as this is not the case by any stretch of the imagination I do not see many if any.

Though to check

@Durin
1. What is the chance of discovery whether we agree to further participation or not?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
1. the chance of you being discovered to be connected, with further participation within a century, 80% with constant, 40% with occasional meetings, within 2 centuries, 100%
without further participation, 10%
 
Why hasn't Chaos reverse-engineered Eldar tech anyway? There were a bunch of Dark Eldar enclaves that fell to Slaneesh, and I'm pretttty sure Dark Mechanicus can foot the bill to chaos-accelerate normal Eldar tech. At the very least they must have sample from pre-44k.
 
[X] Argument against the above

Hmm. I don't think it's time yet for a grand alliance of humanity.

Edit : Even if Dark mech engineered some elder tech, they are never going to share them with each other. Likely not even going to tell fellow archmagos about their achievement even among the same mechanicus world, because of the chances of their fellow Archmagos killing them in order to steal their knowledge and shinies. Chaos is self-destructive.
 
Last edited:
Shard said:
Why hasn't Chaos reverse-engineered Eldar tech anyway? There were a bunch of Dark Eldar enclaves that fell to Slaneesh, and I'm pretttty sure Dark Mechanicus can foot the bill to chaos-accelerate normal Eldar tech. At the very least they must have sample from pre-44k.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Because Eldar t ch is both ridiculously advanced and up a totally different tech tree.
 
DkArthas said:
Edit : Even if Dark mech engineered some elder tech, they are never going to share them with each other. Likely not even going to tell fellow archmagos about their achievement even among the same mechanicus world, because of the chances of their fellow Archmagos killing them in order to steal their knowledge. Chaos is self-destructive.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not really an issue given the issues with reverse engineering, but ass it is now the fully chaos corrupted DE releasing it en mass to chaos is what's going to happen.

Its one the reasons why I don't worry about Abaddon he's going to be crawling in WoMD using Slaanesh Eldar nut jobs who are too prideful to ever consider bowing to some filthy mon keigh, to say nothing of the regular chaos nut jobs who have sudden access to the DE's arsenal.

Its also another reason I want the regular tech since remember who's got a daemon worlds right in our territory.
 
Last edited:
Shard said:
In terms of chaos noticing it would probably be in the fact that our polities are suddenly advancing. In that regard it's basically impossible to hide chaos noticing the result of the first meeting at all. In that case might as well commit to it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Since Chaos noticing is a probability, not a certainty, not really.
Doomed Wombat said:
Its one the reasons why I don't worry about Abaddon he's going to be crawling in WoMD using Slaanesh Eldar nut jobs who are too prideful to ever consider bowing to some filthy mon keigh, to say nothing of the regular chaos nut jobs who have sudden access to the DE's arsenal.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Let's not forget that Abaddon himself would also have access to DE's arsenal.
 
[X] Argument to support future meetings and periodic technology transfer, but upon discovery have the Eldar immediately begin passing on future advances.
-[X] Point out that every polity will take at least a century to properly digest the results of the first Tech Conference, and thus cannot take much advantage of the instantaneous Eldar tech-transfer for that duration.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top