The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
And what deficiencies in the stacked lances? That's a tech Callamus got from an OC forge world that specialized in starship construction and starship technology. The most Avernus tech could do is give Callamus a better reactor for their starships(so the guns have more energy) and give them more powerful lances.(like Deus Ex Callamus did with their own Las tech Savant).

But the way you described their history, not only are stacked lances some form of recovered tech, but tech they couldn't even build right because they don't have Tranth. That's just insulting, that Callamus needs to suck on the teet of Avernus just so their own tech doesn't suck. Not make better like giving them more powerful guns and better reactors to power said guns but outright not suck.

It's hardly insulting that Callamus isn't as good at reverse engineering archaeotech as Tranth. He is literally the best specialist in the galaxy with respect to that, with centuries of experience thanks to the sheer number of treasures that were in our system.

As far as improving their stacked lances, our ship tech is mostly from a DAoT database from the Iron War. We're at tech level 18 with a military focus, while they're at 15 with an industrial focus. Our lances are likely better in almost every respect, which includes capacitors given they have a better fire rate.
 
to me it came off more that the ring is on the very edge of being to expensive to maintain, and that the regenerative metal STC was what put it over the edge into being practical.
This.

It's hardly insulting that Callamus isn't as good at reverse engineering archaeotech as Tranth. He is literally the best specialist in the galaxy with respect to that, with centuries of experience thanks to the sheer number of treasures that were in our system.

As far as improving their stacked lances, our ship tech is mostly from a DAoT database from the Iron War. We're at tech level 18 with a military focus, while they're at 15 with an industrial focus. Our lances are likely better in almost every respect, which includes capacitors given they have a better fire rate.
This too.

Thank you both for putting it far more succinctly than I could.

our ship tech is mostly from a DAoT database from the Iron War.
What isn't from that database is from what the DAoT would consider an Ark Mechanicus.
 
Speaking of Callamus techs, I wonder if that Hulk-ForgeWorld is still around? The one from the first Age of Strife with archeotechs that not even Mars had.
 
Honestly, Avernus might just give their Old Guard a hell of a political power boost.

How did we get to our Tech-18? Not by reverse-engineering xenotech, or innovation, but the wisdom of the ancients and a once-in-a-millennium genius.

Sure, we can't get much farther, but still. It all came from STC's. And we still have GOBS of STC's to work on.

Implementation actions are gonna take forever...
 
I do have a question how old are the leaders for the forge empire chosen? Is it by votes of the leaders of the forge worlds, some type of continuous leader ship of clones.
 
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Honestly, Avernus might just give their Old Guard a hell of a political power boost.

How did we get to our Tech-18? Not by reverse-engineering xenotech, or innovation, but the wisdom of the ancients and a once-in-a-millennium genius.

Sure, we can't get much farther, but still. It all came from STC's. And we still have GOBS of STC's to work on.

Implementation actions are gonna take forever...

I suspect cadmus will roll out stuff faster than we do. there going to have a lot of worlds to take those actions rather than the trust which seems to have decided to let avernus handle it.
 
We have an entire moon of metal on its own and the Trust cannot support a ship yard a quarter the size of the Ring without vast imports of metal to Vanaheim, never mind support everything else.

It Callamus could say reduce the number of Tech legions or Titan legions it operated then yeah it probably could afford the ring on its own. But, having to keep and grow its forces, while dealing with increased upkeep from additional ships...

So yeah they used technology that was available to them to make it practical, achieve something that is superior to the Ring of Iron in its way, because the Ring of Iron only worked because it had the resources of the entire imperium following in.

Was the metal needed to make in in the first place, no it was not. Was it needed to make it viable yes and that isn't wanking.
And you want to know what our moon isn't? A full fledged Forge World. When our moon is finally covered with Huge Forge Hives, to the point where we run out of space to add more, then we will have matched the resource extraction of giants like Callamus and Bakka. When the Trust spreads over a hundred sectors, with possibly hundreds of Forge Worlds all spread out over the Trust, then we will match the resource extraction and production of the Callamus Forge Empire. That's the strength of Callamus.

High Grandmaster Ridcully recently gave you a report on the Forge-Empire of Callamus, the most powerful human remnant of Segmentum Tempestus. Callamus is a Forge World located to the south of Bakka, in the furthest reaches of the Segmentum. It was founded in M40, and since then has had a meteoric rise until it is spoken of in the same breath as Ryza. Unlike many Forge Worlds Callamus has always been highly active, with its powerful armies and fleets participating in battles across the galaxy, an act which earned them many allies both within the Mechanicus and without as well as one of the most powerful armies in the Adeptus Mechanicus. This led to it being the natural leader of its region after the fall of the Imperium, a region which also had several other Forge Worlds of lesser renown. The areas under the protection, and later control, of Callamus were quickly industrialised by the Tech-Priests, with every world turning into either a Resource World, an Industrial World or a Forge World. This allowed the Forge-Empire of Callamus to develop a powerful military which was used to expand the Forge-Empire. The Adeptus Mechanicus of Callamus is well on the radical end, treating its menials far better then most and encouraging innovation, though not without taking great care.

As things stand the Forge-Empire controls eighty sectors, each of which is split between one of more Forge Worlds. These Forge Worlds owe allegiance to Callamus and pay tithes to it but are in many ways independent. The armies of Callamus resemble the traditional force of the Adeptus Mechanicus write large, though they do wield several new forms of technology developed by the Forge-Empire over the years. As well as the all pervasive Orks the Forge-Empire of Callamus must deal with the Ophelian Theocracy to its north, the largest and most powerful of the Golden Imperiums of the Abomination, the expansionist Maynarkh Dynasty of Necrons to the South and countless attacks by the Dark Mechanicus. So far they have been able to hold their own, and even occasionally gain ground but the Green Awakening has raised the pressure on the Forge-Empire of Callamus to a new level.

Forge-Empire of Callamus
Human Galactic Power
Rulers: Fabricator-General Lethe
Capital: Callamus
Size: 117 Sectors
Technology level: 15 (Industrial focus)
Estimated Population: 150 trillion
Military: 6 trillion Tech-Guard, 10 trillion Skitrii, 1 trillion Battle Congregations, 200 Titan Legions, 10 Chapters of Astartes,
Fleet: 120-150 Sector Fleets
Extraordinary assets: None
Known Relations: Orks (War), Ophelian Theocracy (War), Maynarkh Dynasty (War)

The Forge-Empire of Callamus is one of the most powerful human remnants and the largest of the Mechancius Domains that formed after the Fall of the Imperium. In many ways its formation started in the 41st millennium when Callamus rose to power and became the de-factor leaders of its sector. This provided Callamus with more resources which it used to become one of the most militarily active Forge-Worlds, building vast armies and fleets as well as an extensive network of allies. With the Death of the Emperor these armies were turned to protecting the neighboring sectors from threats, leading to Callamus ending up protecting over a dozen sectors within a century of the Emperor's death. Eventually threats grow in size enough for Callamus to need to size control of those worlds that it was protecting, and to heavily industrialise them to produce more war material. This was the era in which the Forge-Empire was truly formed and in which Callamus began one of its most successful practices, the forced sharing of all technology by all Forge-Worlds within its Empire, in exchange for the Forge-Worlds having control over their local sectors. This led to a technological boom, greatly strengthening the Forge-Empire and allowing for its rapid expansion.

As things stand the Forge-Empire controls a bit under a hundred and twenty Sectors in the southern region of Segmentum Tempestus. Expansion has slowed in recent years due to coming into contact with other powers capable of matching it. To its north stands the Ophelian Theocracy the largest and most powerful of the Golden Imperiums of the Abomination which controls over two hundred sectors, to its south lies the Maynarkh Dynasty of Necrons, whose soulless legions have crushed every force sent against them while to the east and west lie powerful Ork domains.

The Forge-Empire is ruled by the Adeptus Mechancius using a feudal system, which each Forge-World controlling a large area and being beholden to Callamus itself, which also controls the initial dozen sectors directly. Almost all of the worlds within the Forge-Empire are directly controlled by the Mechancius with a population consisting of menials, though there are a few exceptions. In general these menials are tarted better then those of the Imperial age, though they still have many restrictions.

The Adeptus Mechancius of the Forge-Empire has progressed much from the era of the Imperium, encouraging innovation and allowing the study of xenotech. When combined with the sharing of hidden knowledge from dozens of Forge-Worlds this has allowed for a significant amount of technological improvement, especially in the more industrial end of technology.

The Forge-Empire of Callamus is one of a handful of bastions of sanity in this dark era, and is constantly looking to expand it reach. While it has not really acted on the galactic scale other then surviving rumors of its existence have spread far and wide, leading to many Mechanicus Domains and other human survivors to send refugees towards it when they fall.

In war the Forge-Empire fight in a manner similar to the Adeptus Mechancius of old, relying on countless legions of augmented Skitrii backed by the raw power of its Titans. While the technology that it uses is better then that fielded by any world in the Imeprial age, even Mars, it is not that technology that sets the forces of Callamus apart. Instead it is the sheer industrial power of the Forge-Empire, which allows it to churn out well equipped army after well equipped army and fleet after fleet. This allows Callamus to defeat enemies with numbers that they can not match with quality, though the quality of its Battle Congregations it by no means low.

Callamus's biggest strength isn't just the general high tech nature of their forces, it's their overall insane industry. The fact that they can send such forces into meat grinders over and over again, and always have more coming right off the assembly line because they have the population and production to afford fighting like that.

The Imperial Trust barely contains three sub-sectors, with a total population less then a trillion and has had functionally far less time pass since the death of the Emperor thanks to Warp Storm time fuckery and you think our industry can be compared to the Callamus Forge Empire? Or any of the Big 3 Imperial Successor states? Our limitations, are not their limitations. When the tech exchange happens, we will be offering military technology, but don't be surprised if the others end up trading industrial technology in exchange because I'd put money down on the Big 3 having more industrial tech then we do just from possessing actual Forge Worlds(especially Callamus).

It's hardly insulting that Callamus isn't as good at reverse engineering archaeotech as Tranth. He is literally the best specialist in the galaxy with respect to that, with centuries of experience thanks to the sheer number of treasures that were in our system.

As far as improving their stacked lances, our ship tech is mostly from a DAoT database from the Iron War. We're at tech level 18 with a military focus, while they're at 15 with an industrial focus. Our lances are likely better in almost every respect, which includes capacitors given they have a better fire rate.
Except why the hell are Stacked Lances Archeotech from the DAOT? In Deus Ex, Stacked Lances were something Callamus got from a Starship focused Forge World that had been building Starships for millennia. Said Forge World having tinkered around with Lance turrets till they managed to figure out how to add more Lances to a single turret is expected, that's how Forge Worlds role(we saw shit like that in the Rogue Trader rpg all the time). They often tinker with their shit until they have it as best they can and then they horde the tech to themselves for the greatest commercial and political gains and Callamus only got it by offering their own Lance Cannon improvements in exchange.

There was no need to make them Archeotech, especially as the DAOT version wouldn't just be adding more lances to a standard turret but better lances period. Harder hitting, longer ranged, more accurate, faster firing and usually requiring more power to work despite better, more efficient components overall.
 
Leaders I think he means.

And we don't know. All I know from Durin is that there's been around 12 and all Lethe.

Honestly, Avernus might just give their Old Guard a hell of a political power boost.

How did we get to our Tech-18? Not by reverse-engineering xenotech, or innovation, but the wisdom of the ancients and a once-in-a-millennium genius.

Sure, we can't get much farther, but still. It all came from STC's. And we still have GOBS of STC's to work on.

Implementation actions are gonna take forever...
The obvious counters are that

A. Now we're stuck there's nothing left to reasonably find.
B. This means the Novus can do even more stuff through innovation.
C. Saying we count as an example is dumb because we're the one in a trillion the admech has been looking for for the past 15000 years. Not really an endorsement.
D. As we prove such a boost is temporary at best and the status quo of "what explorators?" Returns.

And you want to know what our moon isn't? A full fledged Forge World. When our moon is finally covered with Huge Forge Hives, to the point where we run out of space to add more, then we will have matched the resource extraction of giants like Callamus and Bakka. When the Trust spreads over a hundred sectors, with possibly hundreds of Forge Worlds all spread out over the Trust, then we will match the resource extraction and production of the Callamus Forge Empire. That's the strength of Callamus.





Callamus's biggest strength isn't just the general high tech nature of their forces, it's their overall insane industry. The fact that they can send such forces into meat grinders over and over again, and always have more coming right off the assembly line because they have the population and production to afford fighting like that.

The Imperial Trust barely contains three sub-sectors, with a total population less then a trillion and has had functionally far less time pass since the death of the Emperor thanks to Warp Storm time fuckery and you think our industry can be compared to the Callamus Forge Empire? Or any of the Big 3 Imperial Successor states? Our limitations, are not their limitations. When the tech exchange happens, we will be offering military technology, but don't be surprised if the others end up trading industrial technology in exchange because I'd put money down on the Big 3 having more industrial tech then we do just from possessing actual Forge Worlds(especially Callamus).


Except why the hell are Stacked Lances Archeotech from the DAOT? In Deus Ex, Stacked Lances were something Callamus got from a Starship focused Forge World that had been building Starships for millennia. Said Forge World having tinkered around with Lance turrets till they managed to figure out how to add more Lances to a single turret is expected, that's how Forge Worlds role(we saw shit like that in the Rogue Trader rpg all the time). They often tinker with their shit until they have it as best they can and then they horde the tech to themselves for the greatest commercial and political gains and Callamus only got it by offering their own Lance Cannon improvements in exchange.

There was no need to make them Archeotech, especially as the DAOT version wouldn't just be adding more lances to a standard turret but better lances period. Harder hitting, longer ranged, more accurate, faster firing and usually requiring more power to work despite better, more efficient components overall.
The economic strength of callumas is also dispersed over one hundred sectors in an age where non chaos transport is very slow while said strength is dispersed maintaining and rebuilding everything else.

In essence Callamus is incapable of concentrating that economic power.

I also dispute to hell and back that they have more economic stcs just because they've got more forge worlds, as embers forge worlds all use the same basic industrial techs and whatever scraps they've picked up. And with the exception of the Mars cathedrals which could produce artefact material we've got all of those designs courtesy of Atlas and the BD.

They got them from tempus sigma ten and it's a design of lance, never does it say anywhere that it's something they made it and didn't salvage it. So I took creative liberties, because I do not know if they exist nor frankly do I care much.

Yes and the rogue trader ones are always worse and incur an obnoxious disadvantage like periodically exploding. Extra power required for an upgrade is not an obnoxious advantage.

No the DAOT version would be a stacked las turret that fired at the same power as our our las turrets. Op as hell, very draining on the reactor yeah, but super super powerful.

But they can't mange that they don't have the quality of parts or understanding to do it so they made a replication that would piss off the impmech and actually ****ing works.
 
Tempus-Sigma-Ten
The Forgeworld of Tempus-Sigma-Ten (often refereed to as TST for short hand) is not a 'world' in the traditional sense. It's very earliest origins can be traced back to the days of the Great Crusade, when the Adeptus Mechanicus established a series of shipyards and resupply facilities in orbit of a large gas giant, which was used as a source of fuel.

Over time, this small fleet base grew in size, eventually gaining a fleet of mining-ships and a refinery, along with manufactorums intended to produce critical ship-parts on demand. The process escalated over the course of three millenia as the locations strategic importance grew, prompting the Adeptus Mechanicus to send ever more personnel to keep it going. However, for the longest time Tempus-Sigma-Ten was considered little more than a sizable base used by the Imperial Navy, until the twilight days of the Age of Apostasy.

Though the truth of the matter is unknown (or a secret buried so deep that it may as well be), one day the significant Mechanicus presence on TST forcefully overthrew the vessels stationed there, and scuttled those ships they could not capture. Ostensibly this fleet had been loyal to Vandire, though the fact that the techpriests had taken no prisoners amongst the crews and officers present made this a difficult thing to prove. Naturally, this lead to friction afterwards, with many accusations of treachery power grabs, and the techpriests claiming that they had a right of full control over the facility. Had this taken place in a more stable era, the techpriests of Tempus-Sigma-Ten may have found themselves on the receiving end of a very angry naval battlegroup.

As it was, a compromise was made, and Temptus-Sigma-Ten was made a 'Forgeworld', having possessed the technical requirements for this already. Of course, in return for this title, they had to continue their role as a fleetyard for the Imperial Navy. An observant person may have noticed that the situation had not changed at all, in the grand scheme of things.

The Tempus-Sigma-Ten of today is a massive collection of space-stations. Some are massive, fortress like command centers, others are manufactorums and residential facilities, but most significant are the shipyards. While Tempus-Sigma-Ten is underwhelming in terms of material production, it has a shipyard capacity far in excess of it's status. Countless scaffolds litter the gas-giants orbit, some built into the aforementioned fortresses, others dating back to the era of the Great Crusade. It maintains a significant monitor fleet, and everything from sensor probes to defense platforms and hidden strike-hangars can be found strew across the system, concentrated the heaviest close to Tempus-Sigma-Ten itself.

Tempus-Sigma-Ten is supposedly lacking in 'notable' technologies. However, it is said that the Techpriests of this glorified naval base possess ship-building techniques and components that date back to the glory days of the Great Crusade, including the blueprints for the Glorianna-class super battleships.
Important bit highlighted.

These guys don't look like a centre of innovation to me.
 
I've been putting a lot of thought into what Turoq will most likely do next and have come to some conclusions.


First, an aside, I think that with his greater capacity for long term planning and choosing what is best for him in the long run over what causes the most short term advantage his domain will be less of a draw to powerful subordinates, and he will have to put in more effort than normal into fostering the growth of his own subordinates in such a way as to be sure that he won't have to kill them for plotting or being a threat to him should he display weakness.
As such he will have fewer native subordinate heroes than most Chaos does, and will try to make up this deficit with mercenaries and people on loan for the tech he offers.
We could try to turn his hired troops against him, we have berserk gas and telepaths.
Though he is likely aware of the unreliability of hired or allied Chaos, and as such will plan for them to be restricted and killed, either placing them in the riskiest positions in battle, or using them in an entirely separate force.
To turn them against him we don't need to deceive him, we only need to cause a diplomatic or communications breakdown between him and his allies. It might be as simple as telling them that he plans to sacrifice them for victory and asking them to think about their interactions with Turoq and the role he gave them in the war, because preparations against being betrayed look an awful lot like preparations to betray.

Thinking on what Turoq's actual plan of attack is, I have some ideas.

In the category of plans he doesn't want to use:

I think Turoq's final backup plan is discorporating after death and corrupting us or Dragon's Nest from the inside. He has a critical advantage in doing so given his impressive insight into the human mind, the lack of forcing self destructive tendencies in people he induces to worship him. I don't think he'd continue to try to rule from his Daemon world unless the destruction of his physical body is coupled with a major military victory, enough that the aftermath of this battle isn't leaving him open to other rivals.
if he survives but loses his domain and military he's gotten ahold of our tech and able to run and use that as a bargaining chip to work his way into the power structure of another Chaos polity after his defeat.
At which point he will inevitably become an even larger threat than he is now.


When we think of plans he actually wants to use the question then becomes where he will strike The Imperial Trust and how he intends to parlay that into an ideal victory for him.
He needs to take out Midgard or Vanaheim to win a lasting military victory and Avernus to win a favor victory. He has been watching our battles thus far, and saw the war on two fronts, he might have even seen the destruction of Garkill, or at least been able to access the Imperial Trust's records of the event.

We also need to remember that we've been discussing diversionary attacks and denying the flank extensively and the attacker has the initiative with those tactics, just because he can see through other's diversions doesn't mean he can't employ them himself.


I see a few smart targets for him to take, He could try an all out assault on Vanaheim, he has enough Psyker superiority to affect fleet battles, and if he has a gimmick or trick he thinks will work then he could easily succeed. For example if his crew corrupting raid rituals were more effective than the inquisition caught then he could threaten the Trust into concentrating them at Vanaheim, then induce them to betrayal all at once.

And I have vaguely suspected that Vanaheim is harbouring a coven of Rogue psykers since we learned that they were more psykic than normal. If Turoq has positive confirmation of my vague suspicion he could try some sacrificial ritual to corrupt them and get them to target the shipyards.

I don't think he'll commit to a heavy attack on Vanaheim, he's been hurt badly in Naval conflicts with us before, and will be reluctant to engage in another, but he might send a diversionary fleet of transports filled with sacrifices and ritualists to compromise Vanahiem's ability to build the maximum number of ships.


In short, If we see a fleet heading to Vanaheim we should send most or all of the psykers who are good at disrupting rituals.

But those ritual resources would be equally well used in another attack, so I don't think we'll see this.


He could target Midgard, I'm essentially sure that he can get past their orbital defences as it is, at which point his best option is to decide to dig in and turn it into a slugging match for however long it takes for the Orks to blow their tops, and we get to see what corruption and Sorcery can do to a planetary population in a multi year siege. Alternatively he could get an exterminatus weapon rather than fighting it out on the ground, either by using Sorcery for the task, stealing one from us, or buying one from one of the Dark Mechanicus forge worlds in the area.

If he heads for Midgard we're going to want to divine for the presence and location of an exterminatus weapon in his fleet and possibly put a higher priority on fleet response than the other locations he might go to.

We should also see if it's possible to be absolutely sure he cannot capture any of ours.

We should also prepare to be stuck drawing out the battle again to try to stop him from using his exterminatus weaponry, but if so will be unable to do so in the unnatural stilted and half committed way that we did against the Abomination invasion.


He seems to be at least somewhat focused on combating our technological advantage, so he might put a high priority on attacking those worlds that produce the most technologically necessary Material types. I don't think he'll go after Muspelheim, but he might go after Svartalfheim or Niflheim. In which case I have no idea which he'd go after, but I'm not sure how serious of a threat it would be in any case, Svartalfheim has impressive defences, while Niflheim is likely much better defended than it appears.


The next most likely target he might have is trying to either draw out fleets away from the core worlds, or induce rebellion out of feelings of abandonment in a subsector through preliminary attacks right before the final battle. I don't think he'll do this, if he were going to his raids would have mostly been concentrated on a single subsector.


Finally, we need to consider that it might not be sustainable for him to not attack Avernus. He runs a theocracy, and is buying support from other theocracies, presumably ones worshipping the same god, unless he has a specific purpose for the abilities of one of the other cults, and his god has offered an unspecified but large amount of favor to any who manage to wipe us off the planet. Not just the mercenaries he is hiring, but also his own subordinates, will challenge any plan of battle that doesn't move them personally closer to sharing in that reward. So aside from his need to guard against betrayal by his mercenaries, he will also need to satisfy them. Or appear to be satisfying them.

He can do this by forming them into a detached force to create a diversionary attack on the Helheim system, they are in a separate force so he doesn't need to worry about betrayal(even more important if the Mercs have ships, you don't want a naval betrayal when it looks like you're losing the ground war), They die, leaving him with fewer long term problems and the ability to deliver on removing troublesome subordinates for other polities, he gets a distraction of the Avernite forces to allow him to inflict immense casualties like what happened in the War On Two Fronts.



In conclusion I think Turoq's target is Midgard, with a diversionary attack on Avernus or the moons of Cumea, which one depends on whether his support troops are more motivated by gaining tech or favor.


He will most likely try to time things to either prevent us from supporting Dragon's nest against the Orkz, or to take advantage of their attacks to prevent us from following up on his defeat.


We need to think about what kinds of personal levers he could get against the commanders of his support units, and how we could subvert them. Notably I think we should have Ridcully present for the battle, and able to look for ways to turn Turoq's leverage over his sub-commanders against him.


@Durin

1.What are Turoq's motivations for the attack on us, what specifically does he prioritize gaining in a successful attack against us? dunno maybe don't answer this, people are saying it's already answered.

2. What kinds of help he is negotiating for specifically?

3. Is his fleet large enough that he can crack one of the Core World orbital defensive lines without relying on outside help?
 
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And you want to know what our moon isn't? A full fledged Forge World. When our moon is finally covered with Huge Forge Hives, to the point where we run out of space to add more, then we will have matched the resource extraction of giants like Callamus and Bakka. When the Trust spreads over a hundred sectors, with possibly hundreds of Forge Worlds all spread out over the Trust, then we will match the resource extraction and production of the Callamus Forge Empire. That's the strength of Callamus

don't mistake impractical for impossible. 100 times the cost for 50 times the productivity is a bad build. Just because they could build it without the last bit of upkeep reduction does not mean it was a good idea. I really don't see why you find the idea that one of the big upkeep reducing STC's we found in the age of the imperum is useful. I mean it's not different than the impales seeing widespread use.
 
Example being that if we had several level 20 tech we would still be capped at level 18 tech wise since we couldn't mass produce the higher level tech easily and only supply them in low numbers.
From what I understand most our military tech is tech level 20+ (with some stuff like SER being close to or even at TL25), but since we lack most of the other stuff it averages to TL18. We are DAoT military without most of DAoT industrial and civilian tech.
 
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While that is a good idea you ruined it with the killing many enemies bit. That's the praelia's job. As our fleet kinda demonstrates the best case scenario for a fleet is that it never sees the enemy until it reaches its destination.
Yeah. I was originally thinking "rescuing tech from bad guys" and then it went weird when I was trying to word my ideas adequately. Still, I hope you take the overall idea to heart, even if you cut out the enemies bit.

I'll think on that last part, mostly because I can see it as a zone where the Old Guard and the Novus cooperate and agree albeit in different ways (Novus finding new applications for existing technology, Old improving what's there)...lets not use the monks as an example. The difference is that those monks were exploring intelligent texts that made sense in context of the information they had...but are still factually incorrect for the most part requiring peeps like Parceleus to effectively become Novus. (Parceleus is regarded as the Luther of Medicine for criticising assumptions made by Galum and Herodotus, which led to a slow break away from ideas like Humours.)
Firstly, I think it should be the reverse, with the Old Guard finding new applications for existing technology with the Novus improving what's there. The Novus are innovators and would like to make new technology, so working with old tech isn't really their thing. The Old Guard want to avoid unnecessary innovation and so try to find new applications for existing technology so that new technology doesn't need to be created.
As for the monks, I think we should use them as an example, and for a reason which you just illustrated. The Mechanicus has a bunch of rituals that seem useless but do have reason to exist, but it also has rituals that seem useful but actually aren't. The Old Guard would look closely at both types of rituals in their Quest for Knowledge. They'd be the ones to discover both the hidden gems and the fool's gold. There'd be some crossover with the Novus in this case as well, naturally. Maybe I'm overreaching on this, though. Could very well be being overcharitable with the OG.

Because they're a majority of the teachers, because the initiates into the admech from the general populace will have frequently interacted with them the most and know them, because they've got skeletons to march out of closets and as you said they are reponsible for civilian life at every level...I thought I made that apparent with things like managing the phantom economies.

I mean we're not disagreeing I just wasn't clear enough?
Yeah, you weren't clear enough. You gave some very specific examples of what they did with no real indication or clear implication that they did anything else. Just diplomacy, luxuries, spycraft, and a niche form of industry boost (the phantom economies).

And what deficiencies in the stacked lances? That's a tech Callamus got from an OC forge world that specialized in starship construction and starship technology.
That's in Deus Ex Mechanicus. There are differences between the Callamus of Embers and DEM. The origin of the stacked lances could be one of them.
 
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[X] Plan We Have Reserves
-[X] Sell 5,000,000,000 Promethium per year, 10,000 Cr, 400 Cargo
-[X] Sell 30,000,000,000 Metal per year, 45,000 Cr, 3,600 Cargo
-[X] Buy 34,375,000,000 Thrones per year, 34,375 Cr, 0 Cargo
 
Well yes, but is it all of those or is it primarily one of those.
As I recall its both, with the former being more important than the latter.

Firstly, I think it should be the reverse, with the Old Guard finding new applications for existing technology with the Novus improving what's there. The Novus are innovators and would like to make new technology, so working with old tech isn't really their thing. The Old Guard want to avoid unnecessary innovation and so try to find new applications for existing technology so that new technology doesn't need to be created.
As for the monks, I think we should use them as an example, and for a reason which you just illustrated. The Mechanicus has a bunch of rituals that seem useless but do have reason to exist, but it also has rituals that seem useful but actually aren't. The Old Guard would look closely at both types of rituals in their Quest for Knowledge. They'd be the ones to discover both the hidden gems and the fool's gold. There'd be some crossover with the Novus in this case as well, naturally. Maybe I'm overreaching on this, though. Could very well be being overcharitable with the OG.
Ok the way I look at it is that the Novus want to do "new" things that conservative admech doctrine (like the kind we're forced to follow) would be spitting in fury at.

This includes doing new stuff with old tech.

There is however an extreme fringe that wants as little to do with anything old as possible (lets call em hipsters:???:).

By that same medium however, there are plenty of Old Guard who are interested in discovering new applications of old tech...just they have to do what Scott does and use loopholes. They're very big loopholes, but by "traditional doctrine" its still bad.

But, there's plenty of overlap, the method of getting there is just different.

Of course there's an extreme fringe there as well, which is just as fanatical as our conservatives. Difference of course being they're where they belong slowly dying on the fringe.

The reason the monk example doesn't really work is that there ain't much factual information in the old respected sources like Isidore and Solinus.
For example I'm reasonably certain that India is not populated by cyclopes who use their pubic hair as loin clothes. But, this was factual information for a long time.
.

By contrast while I do think that the majority of the Admech's rituals are bull, well...enough sifting is probably guaranteed to bring up gold.

Yeah, you weren't clear enough. You gave some very specific examples of what they did with no real indication or clear implication that they did anything else. Just diplomacy, luxuries, spycraft, and a niche form of industry boost (the phantom economies).
Yeah...that was my problem. Thing is ATM I'm very busy, so I really didn't put in enough detail and flesh out everything as it should have been done.

For example one thing I should have put in was that the Praelia and Almitia are not opposing forces, just their actions are, with of course the exception of their lunatic fringes...but, well they're lunatics.

If you want we could build em into something more detailed together?

@Durin
1. Something I noticed a few days ago. There are 11 Phoenix Lords, however there are only 10 we know of. The list in Lexicanum includes Ahra so that knocks it down to nine (since I assume he's rogue), though the number is bumped up to 10 again with the inclusion of Lhykosidae as Phoenix Lord of the Warp Spiders. So do we know who the new Phoenix is?
 
[X] Plan We Have Reserves

We got them let's use them. We only need a few more turns then we can start building the huge hives on that moon. If we can work it right by the High Council meeting after this next one we should be good on AM production.

You know what I'm hoping for is that when Tranth finishes making upgraded models for all of our Titan classes he get a learning trait that pushs him into a Paragon of learning. If that doesn't work maybe sending him to learn from Vulcan and Vaul's shard might work.
 
The vote is as one sided as a turn vote
Adhoc vote count started by Nurgle on Oct 17, 2018 at 6:20 PM, finished with 106466 posts and 17 votes.
 
*sigh*

I thought I was actually going to get a plan through...but, the numbers lied to me.



[X] Plan We Have Reserves
-[X] Sell 5,000,000,000 Promethium per year, 10,000 Cr, 400 Cargo
-[X] Sell 30,000,000,000 Metal per year, 45,000 Cr, 3,600 Cargo
-[X] Buy 34,375,000,000 Thrones per year, 34,375 Cr, 0 Cargo
 
So can we ask for Callamus to send us some forces to take care of Turoq ? I guess we'd have to ask the Eldar to provide transport.

Seems like a cop out. Also doesn't solve the problem that he has better strategic speed than we do.

Our problem is not that we don't have enough ground forces to stomp him.

We do.

Its that we can't transport and supply them safely on a campaign in his territory as things currently stand.

Callamus has a shit ton of ground forces, but as others have noted already, a much smaller fleet comparatively. And they are facing far larger foes, so those ships are even more precious to them.
 
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