The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
So, having looked through our problems with Turoq's domain, the problem actually exists in multiple angles.

1. Mobility Advantage.
- This is actually a MASSIVE point. Essentially, Turoq can concentrate wherever we aren't, and can react to any action we take. Practically speaking, maneuver is effectively impossible against an opponent who has a mobility advantage on one or more magnitudes.

2. No FoW (From Turoq's perspective).
- This compounds the above factor, meaning our opponents basically engage on their own terms. Forever.

Now, these two factors combined, they resemble something, doesn't it?

Yep! It resembles N-Steps Ahead. Except this is like a better version of the Transcendent N-Steps Ahead in quite some ways.

Whoop. So, having reduced the problem into something more recognizable, we can now consider how to solve this solution. Unfortunately, like all Transcendant traits, N-Steps ahead is a goddamn pain to counter on the strategic and tactical scale.

Solution A: Force an engagement.

Essentially, we eliminate the FoW and Mobility Advantages possessed by Turoq by forcing them to engage.. somewhere. The difficulty is that Turoq has effectively free reign to reinforce, counterattack and basically outmaneuver us in such a fight. Also, we'd need to target like a Daemonworld to force them to engage - Or alternatively, we can send a roving fleet that must be able to defeat Turoq's combined Navy, and have it demolish nondaemon world after nondaemonworld. Those worlds are still important, right?

Cons: We need to survive without that massive Doomball fleet for an extended period of time. That extended period of time can quite easily suck. A LOT.

Solution B: Eliminate either factors 1 or 2.

So far, our available methods speeding up ships in the warp is prohibitively expensive and insufficient.

Our ability to mitigate FoW is somewhat less bad, but still pretty bad. Daemon Tracking is kind of a hard-to-counter thing. Maybe the Telepathica has some ideas, or maybe we can try to transport ships without the warp (hahahahhaha... actually maybe the Tau's slowwarp drive might be untraceable...??!?!?!?!)

Solution C: Have a strategy that can beat a guy with N-Steps Ahead.

I don't know, maybe Rotbart/Ridcully has some ideas. I don't.
 
Hmm, so far all my solutions to Turoq requires us to have more ships.

Except I think we're already cranking out ships at an insane rate? I don't think we have to ability to accelerate our ship production even more, I think?
 
Whoop. So, having reduced the problem into something more recognizable, we can now consider how to solve this solution. Unfortunately, like all Transcendant traits, N-Steps ahead is a goddamn pain to counter on the strategic and tactical scale.
Well its not quite as bad since he still has to decide what goes where unlike Rotbart who doesn't have to decide until an engagement is forced.

Still
Hmm, so far all my solutions to Turoq requires us to have more ships.

Except I think we're already cranking out ships at an insane rate? I don't think we have to ability to accelerate our ship production even more, I think?
Yeah, this is one solution, basically to become so tough that any raiding strategy is rendered ineffective, which puts a massive hole in his plan.

I'm personally still very much hopeful we will get a new FTL from the Eldar. Not like mega super certain we will, but hopeful.
 
Hmm, so far all my solutions to Turoq requires us to have more ships.

Except I think we're already cranking out ships at an insane rate? I don't think we have to ability to accelerate our ship production even more, I think?
I mean we could start building ships but that means we could not increase the shipyards. If we repair what is left in the graveyard that is 500 ships than we would have to start construction on new ships.

But I think our best is too go with a massive build up of shipyards which is why I am going with the max AM.
 
N-Steps ahead is a force multiplier.. essentially if we trade ships at even somewhat disadvantageous rates, we gain a relative advantage over Turoq after those battles.
I mean we could start building ships but that means we could not increase the shipyards. If we repair what is left in the graveyard that is 500 ships than we would have to start construction on new ships.

But I think our best is too go with a massive build up of shipyards which is why I am going with the max AM.
Shipbuilding from the IMperial Trust as a whole.
 
N-Steps ahead is a force multiplier.. essentially if we trade ships at even somewhat disadvantageous rates, we gain a relative advantage over Turoq after those battles.

Shipbuilding from the IMperial Trust as a whole.
Vanaheim is already both building as many ships as it can and Midgard is still building up there shipyards. That is everyone else who has major shipyards. Yes we got that one colony world but most of the ship building is from the core worlds and it will take time.

As for your plan to force engagement I do not see it working out. Raider historically do not stay around for a fight and run as soon as they can. It is why I propose so many things from stealth assault shuttles to suicide missions.
 
Vanaheim is already both building as many ships as it can and Midgard is still building up there shipyards. That is everyone else who has major shipyards. Yes we got that one colony world but most of the ship building is from the core worlds and it will take time.

As for your plan to force engagement I do not see it working out. Raider historically do not stay around for a fight and run as soon as they can. It is why I propose so many things from stealth assault shuttles to suicide missions.
My forced engagement plan is to a giant doomball* fleet smash Turoq's worlds one after another.

It has it's flaws, like counterchoirs in the style of Garkill.

*Powerful enough that Turoq's entire navy cannot defeat it.
 
My forced engagement plan is to a giant doomball* fleet smash Turoq's worlds one after another.

It has it's flaws, like counterchoirs in the style of Garkill.

*Powerful enough that Turoq's entire navy cannot defeat it.
The mobility and information gap is the problem. He knows where our ships are going to be and he literally is 20 times faster than what we can do. These is because of demons. So he can literally send a force out and multiple times before we even get close enough to hurt him. Also he can gather his forces quicker and overwhelm any force we send unless it is such a large force that leaves us vulnerable.
 
The mobility and information gap is the problem. He knows where our ships are going to be and he literally is 20 times faster than what we can do. These is because of demons. So he can literally send a force out and multiple times before we even get close enough to hurt him. Also he can gather his forces quicker and overwhelm any force we send unless it is such a large force that leaves us vulnerable.
The ideal time to implement our attack would be immediately after Turoq raids us, actually, I suspect - Raiding is the scenario where we probably have better exchange ratios. There might be a small 'Timing' where we hold a relative advantage over Turoq in terms of aggregate naval capacity.
 
The ideal time to implement our attack would be immediately after Turoq raids us, actually, I suspect - Raiding is the scenario where we probably have better exchange ratios. There might be a small 'Timing' where we hold a relative advantage over Turoq in terms of aggregate naval capacity.
But it takes us months to get there and him days to a week. He can recall any forces by the time we first invade the first world.
 
@Portec you are going to want to increase Em buying more since most of the surplus you are getting will be eaten up by the 30,500 increase when we finish the current military expansion.
Look at each ressource.
My plan sells as much as is bearable and buys as few as possible.
With it Material, Metal, AM, EM and Food is each at only a 'low' income post trade.

What I see of the Max plan is a financial suizide.
The trade dept is so high it creates an interest of nearly 260.000 Credits with Nilfheim.

INTEREST!

The maximum we can sell them is 330,000 Credits. With that plan Nilfheim will de facto owns us through our dept.
 
What's happening with Tugozak's domain anyway? Can we manipulated that to spit out a horde at Turoq's Domain?
 
Look at each ressource.
My plan sells as much as is bearable and buys as few as possible.
With it Material, Metal, AM, EM and Food is each at only a 'low' income post trade.

What I see of the Max plan is a financial suizide.
The trade dept is so high it creates an interest of nearly 260.000 Credits with Nilfheim.

INTEREST!

The maximum we can sell them is 330,000 Credits. With that plan Nilfheim will de facto owns us through our dept.
Yes I understand that and your plan will start to go into deficit of EM 3 to 4 turns when we start filling the new tithe for Hellguard.
 
Yes I understand that and your plan will start to go into deficit of EM 3 to 4 turns when we start filling the new tithe for Hellguard.
No.

In two years our AM production will increase to 18.7 mil
Our upkeep before Hellguard is 30.8 and 35 mil after. But that is reduced by 25 to 35% because the Trust pay for a part. Lets take only 20% than our upkeep is 28 mil.
May plan buys 10.9 mil
18.7 + 10.9 - 28 = 1.5 mil income
 
No.

In two years our AM production will increase to 18.7 mil
Our upkeep before Hellguard is 30.8 and 35 mil after. But that is reduced by 25 to 35% because the Trust pay for a part. Lets take only 20% than our upkeep is 28 mil.
May plan buys 10.9 mil
18.7 + 10.9 - 28 = 1.5 mil income
Exotic Material is Em. You will start to have problem in 3-4 turns.
 
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Exotic Material is Em. You will start to have problem in 3-4 turns.
Okay the same for EM

Our EM production is 136 T.
Our upkeep before Hellguard is 251T and 278T after. But that is reduced by 25 to 35% because the Trust pay for a part. Lets take only 20% than our upkeep is 223T.
May plan buys 207 T.
136 + 207 - 223T = 120T income
 
Okay the same for EM

Our EM production is 136 T.
Our upkeep before Hellguard is 251T and 278T after. But that is reduced by 25 to 35% because the Trust pay for a part. Lets take only 20% than our upkeep is 223T.
May plan buys 207 T.
136 + 207 - 223T = 120T income
We are running a current deficit of -114,837 with a further increase of -30,500for the current military expansion, -11,000 for the Cathedaral another 1000 for the rest(give or take it is 200 here 50 there you get the idea) Your plans bring 207,000 or 180,000 after the trade levy. So for simplicity sake let's round and go with 180,000- 157,000 for a total 23,000. And since we want to make at least two more cathedral forges in the coming decades another -11,000 em each you will run into a deficit in 3 to 4 turns when we start the new tithe.

Edit I apologize for the rounding but I am on my phone.
Edit which I rembered now has a calculator that I never use.
 
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We are running a current deficit of -114,837 with a further increase of -30,500for the current military expansion, -11,000 for the Cathedaral another 1000 for the rest(give or take it is 200 here 50 there you get the idea) Your plans bring 207,000 or 180,000 after the trade levy. So for simplicity sake let's round and go with 180,000- 157,000 for a total 23,000. And since we want to make at least two more cathedral forges in the coming decades another -11,000 em each you will run into a deficit in 3 to 4 turns when we start the new tithe.

Edit I apologize for the rounding but I am on my phone.
No Problem.

You have a valid point that my pöan does not take into account the trade levy and ressource thide.

The ressource thide is 15%? Somewhere I can look that up?

Yeah. It looks as if we are going to default to our deptors during the next High Council meeting in 50 years.

We have gone during the last massively in dept (flavor text) and have to keep going into dept just to pay upkeep.

Avernus is done for. Or nearly. We have ~20 normal turns left before the High Council will install oversight to get Avernus dept under control.

I may sounds pessimistic but if the Max plan wins that is what will most likely happen...
 
No Problem.

You have a valid point that my pöan does not take into account the trade levy and ressource thide.

The ressource thide is 15%? Somewhere I can look that up?

Yeah. It looks as if we are going to default to our deptors during the next High Council meeting in 50 years.

We have gone during the last massively in dept (flavor text) and have to keep going into dept just to pay upkeep.

Avernus is done for. Or nearly. We have ~20 normal turns left before the High Council will install oversight to get Avernus dept under control.

I may sounds pessimistic but if the Max plan wins that is what will most likely happen...
It is not that bad Vanaheim has more debt currently than all the debt we may get. Vanaheim was in debt to us for 10 million credit at one point. Also we have some of the best relationships with our debtors. Surt best bro ever.

The trade levy is 10 percent. So yeah but we can pull ourselves out of these by having a massive expansion of industry. Large scale shipyard construction costs of Am and em but has almost no am upkeep. Forges will hopefully come online and keep coming online. The new tithe rebate will actually give us Am and some em when we finish it in 50 years. So I am betting on Durin to continue be a great gm.
 
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