Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Nah nah, I wasn't being serious either. Though I do think the space ants would be a good, band name.
Astral anteaters is probably a good chapter name though.
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
Astral anteaters is probably a good chapter name though.
ArchAIngel
Sorcerer Supreme.
- Location
- Right behind you.
Something about "The enemies of the Imperium are as ANTS to the might of the Emperor's Finest!"?
Then some mods to the brain-eating organ so it's better.
Then some mods to the brain-eating organ so it's better.
John Masaki
The Guy With the Lightsaber
- Location
- Atlantis
And they're pretty dangerous, especially to, well, ants. And what are we perceived as by Chaos again? Munchies!
Almost certainly not the real name, of course, but I can dig it.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
Well Durin liked his little mistake so it's very possible he'll make it permanent.
[X] Plan Avernus Events
- Location
- United states
Again, just because something is extremely likely to be the case doesn't mean it is the case. First off just because the PM can alter humans doesn't necessarily mean it has and just because it alters other animals isn't enough proof that it's definitely doing the same since by that logic anytime something bad happens and people blame it on chaos than it must be true because Chaos can do it even though there are other factors involved.
Second, 40K human adaptation is weird as hell considering that a lot of variances show up including things like Beastmen and Ogryns. A major factor in Avernite human changes has been chalked up to the heavily warp touched nature on the planet. The fact that we are the fastest on the records doesn't automically mean that something is involved directly rather than other factors.
Third, to the above examples there is a collosal difference between having very strong suspicions that some thing is true but not having any absolutely concrete evidence and saying that we absolutely know something is true without actually having absolutely concrete evidence. For example we can say 'We have very strong reason to believe this but can't say for absolute certainty due to circumstances and lacking absolute concrete evidence'.
Saying that we absolutely sure that an alien planet mind is altering humans is likely goint to cause issues. Saying that we have strong reason to believe that it's happening but lack absolutely solid proof would make it easier for everyone else to look the other until there is absolutely solid evidence directly linking the PM to the alterations considering how valuable Avernus is and that fact that trying to pick a fight with it is suicide.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
To the first I ask why the hell would it not? It has no qualms about altering other sapient species, and (the other Avernite peoples confirm it does) and no that isn't good logic. Bad things happen and can not be chaos because there are other reasonable explanations. There is no other reasonable explanation for this, it is such a statistical and improbably outlier that it convinced the most paranoid group in the Trust. In there is a lot of evidence to say that it would, could and is currently doing it and not 1 IOTA to suggest it isn't.
And no both the examples you give are wrong. The Ogryn are off shoots of the Jotun which surprise surprise were created artificially in Helheim. The Beastmen too are generally accepted to have been created by the DAoT for reasons unknown. And yes it is weird, because if it were warp warp mutations doing this then we'd be shoggoths right now! This isn't a 1 in a million chance this is a one in infinity chance of this happening due to warp exposure and daemon not being involved, and if it a daemon then I guess we'd better do a mass suicide.
And no being the fastest on record, combined with the stability of the upgrades, the lack of detriments and the fact that nothing in the universe that we know of can make it more likely for a species to produce more psykers genetically is my reasoning from it (warp exposure only increases the chance of a psyker activating their powers it does not make them more likely to have them). But guess what there's something that can do all of those things and we live on. On their own without the knowledge that we are standing in the place where orks were prototyped yes it would be a massive leap of logic HOWEVER, we are doing just that.
There's also the concept of Occam's ****ing razor, which states that if you have two explanations for something take the simpler one. Your examples so far have been "random chance in 100 trillion" and "impossible random chance" mean while mine works off the reasonable and simple supposition that we're on an Old One laboratory planet and we can't exactly refuse.
And saying "sorry we dunno" also causes issues, because the unknown is significantly more scary and that leaves open your idea of it being caused by the warp=Daemons=chaos= AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! At least the high council knows Avernus hates chaos with a passion it's at least a semi known entity with fewer negative connotations.
At this point I'm reasonably confident you just don't want to concede the argument.
"There isn't concrete evidence" is not a good explanation to not accept something, you're pulling on the same logical positivist, verificationist logic that demands I disbelieve all historical events, the moon landings and anything somebody else tells me that I can't verify absolutely 100% verify, in other words not great logic. It also fails because if someone says "there isn't evidence to prove this 100%" I ask two questions.
1. Why do we need 100% evidence.
2. Where's you're proof against.
There's plenty of proof for, I've been giving it too you, but you've offered no proof either besides theorising of which in my opinion are far more unlikely than what I propose with even less evidence.
This is not helped by the fact that other people are going to make the "leap" in logic that I have based on the evidence outlined on their own (one very important group already has) and don't you think that taking into account Occam's razor the massive massive evidence all pointing at it and saying "THIS THIS THISSSS" and the desire to get a better explanation than chaos because they're really the only other reasonable option (Well it COULD be the necrons. Or Eldar. Or krork, but as there's no concrete evidence to prove or disprove this I guess they're all equally valid as well huh?) I'd say being final on this is fair?
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I'm sure Vanaheim would take exception to the fact that oxygen is needed if we stated we rather enjoy breathing seeing as how part of their opposition to tech trades is the fact we are suggesting it. I doubt our reputation would take much of a hit if at all because of WOG, the fact they don't want to leave Avernus and due to the rights we have as a planetary governor.
Will some not like it? Sure but I'm positive there's those that would dislike the food trade we have with the Trolls. All I'm saying is we act WITHIN our rights as a planetary governor and get some shiny runes with one diplomacy action. Which will help not only us but Midgard as well. It also strengthens a key native ally against Chaos. Siren War Courts with Quartok tech is better than Siren War Courts without Quartok tech for the next incursion or invasion by Chaos.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
There's no if about it, they're just not important enough to matter.
Regardless his concerns that the Trust may have (specifically the one about the Sirens going somewhere else for food) are moot, since both them and the Nyne have stated that we don't have to give them the Warp Drive since they're more likely to fight us to remain on Avernus. Since that's the only way off world unless they've got some other way off then there's no concern. Unless of course they've another way off in which case whether we give them the capacity to leave doesn't matter anyway.
As for the Quartok though...well in fairness that's mostly because our attempts to ingraciate them with the Trust haven't gone well rather than the Quartok themselves screwing up. Ironically the Nyne are the most well liked xenos in the Trust as a whole at least for those who know about them.
If you want to help the Quartok out we should deploy Azyr off world to serve as a hero killer. Look at what his actions during the Valinor Crusade went over with the Avernite population. Now imagine him doing the same thing (wrekting Chaos in the face) off world for all the Non Avernites to see.
Between that and the future tech trades it turned me from seeing them as a huge political drain and feel good project to extremely valuable members of the Trust. Since we can use them to not only get almost all Alkhestry but some siren runes to boot without having to deal with an apoplectic Mechanicus.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Well the Quartok should be coming online as contributing members of the Imperial Guard soon...so there's that. Not sure how long exactly, but close enough I think we can look forward to it soon enough.
That'll help them out PR wise assuredly, I just feel that Azyrz, who is ready to be deployed right now, would be better PR and PR they can get also right now.
*insert pict feeds of Azyrz breaking three Chaos Marines, over a knee, at one frakking time*
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Probably true, but I get the feeling putting him around a bunch of humans ain't a good idea, nor is sending him off on his own, especaially since he's one of the best commanders in the Trust, but we can't use him because of stupid xenophobia.
With luck he or someone he picks will command the Quartok he sends and they'll get their rep up.
I wonder if that Quartok will get to command humans? I hope so.
The simplest solution is to send him off attached to an Avernite army. You know, the guys who recognize his value as a killing machine.
- Location
- United states
*Facepalm* What part of the Trust in general hates xenos don't you understand? I seem to remember reading about how several members of the Trust stated that they would have been against us giving the Quartok imperial level tech near the start. It doesn't matter if we view other xeno as allies, the rest of the Trust most definitely do not share that opinion considering that they pretty much barely tolerate the Quartok and thus seem like they would not be cool with the idea of us being too casual with tech trading with races from avernus considering how terrifying they are.
Hell, you keep missing the point that I brought up that maybe we should not jump into doing a tech trade so soon after we trade with the Nynye considering that the only other race we can trade with at the moment are the Sirens who eat souls and have been noted to be a race we can't bring off world due to them potentially eating humans souls would cause immense issues. And like I keep saying it would literally take decades to even do the runes we already have access to with it taking 12 years to do the rest of the runes we have research wise and likely even longer just to actually implement them and we aren't sure how long it would take to do so anyway.
Hence why I suggest not just jumping straight into trading right away and actually see how things go and maybe actually wait until we actually researched and implemented all the runes we have access to considering that we may end up taking longer than expected with us doing other stuff first consideirng past experience. That and Durin himself noted we are not acutally getting that much for a tech trade with the Sirens since a lot of said tech doesn't work well underwater. Not to say that the Runes we can afford with said tech isn't bad, just it's unlikely to get us as much as you think.
Note, that giving them access to the really high tier stuff would actually make it easier for them to find a way to get off world considering that they have access to high level tech. I'm also not sure that the rest of the Trust would buy the bit about them not wanting to leave so easily considering the whole xenophibia thing that's still around.
Also note that I was actually one of the people that suggested trading tech with the Sirens and am currently pushing for the Nynye trade. I'm just wary of angering the rest of the Trust by being too casual with trading tech with Avernus xenos due to past experience with them in regards to how they view xenos and our relationship with them.
- Location
- To the left. No, not there, the other left.
And when it comes to Sirens the xenophobia is not necessarily irrational.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Good thing is that times change. At this point I'm pretty sure Midgard at least don't give a damn, Jotunheim really doesn't, Asgard is probably fine cause they like us and Byzantium if they're not fine with it is more than pragmatic enough to accept it.
It's the old core of conservatives that still REEE and of them I'm pretty sure we're getting to the point where some are drawing away from the idea. The reason their disliked is actually our fault for the most part, and as I said above that will hopefully start changing soonish.
And they seem ok with us trading Xeno tech with xenos so long as we're careful...which we are, hence the need to only inform them rather than spend a vast amount of time campaigning ect.
Also most Avernite species (by comparison) don't fall into the terrifying category, just the Sirens for the soul nomming.
Note we also know IC that there is a civilisation on Avernus with level 20 tech that apparently stands somewhere in the realm of guardian/people. In other words a civ with even better tech than us so if they wanted to leave they probably can. The fact that they don't and the fact that recreating the warp drive even from base principles is really difficult means that it's far more likely they would believe it.
And then if they were to leave decide to leave, found the industry to build the infrastructure needed to go into orbit then build the ship...it's still in the highly fortified Helheim system which can and probably would shoot them out of the sky before they even reached the stratosphere.
And note I'm not against your paranoia, but at the same time, we are making progress (slow as it may seem) on the whole changing people's perceptions front and in the past the level of anger our decisions have gotten have varied a great deal depending on context. For example the main reason that people were against giving the Quartok imperial levels of technology was because it was human technology. If we had had xenotech to give them then they'd have likely been well at that point we'd have destroyed the Xeno tech, but later on (such as now) they likely wouldn't give a flying ****. Just as now people are only fine with the tech trading above level 3 because it's not human tech.
Well it kinda is. Hating them for eating souls is one thing, but hating them just for not being human is another I'd say.
What part of we are acting within our rights as a planetary governor don't you understand? Like seriously, any interactions we have with the people's will ruffle someone's feathers somewhere. Let's not let ignorance get in the way of efficient survival when again we are acting within what has ALREADY been defined to be our rights vis a vis the people of Avernus. Also huge distraction from the issue regarding Imperial tech to the Quartok. We're not going to do anything with human tech, just Quartok tech since Imperial tech makes the Mechanicus give a shit. Kindly drop it since you made that up out of nowhere and is in no way applicable to what I and others want to do with the Sirens.
I see your first statement is here is predicated on a maybe while my position (that we can do what we want with the natives) is based on WOG. In addition we are allowed to bring the Sirens off world to say, fight Chaos, but we are warned if there are any accidents involving them shit will go down so you're just flat wrong there. I find most of you're reasoning pretty flawed on this subject whereas again my reasoning is backed by WOG. People were upset about the troll trade, people were upset about us selling human souls. Now? Now we're just selling xenotech to the Sirens instead of anything even related to humanity. Only the radicals and Vanaheim would oppose it (Vanaheim for reasons outlined earlier) but ultimately get ZERO SAY on it. Finally it won't get us all the runes for one action as I hoped but it will indeed get us some runes for an action from one of our less valuable slots. The risk benefit analysis kinda heavily skews in my favor. Not to mention it strengthens one of our key native allies.
Prove they will use the tech to leave Avernus for anything other than accompanying us to fight Chaos. When they have expressed the opposite and have been nothing but straightforward with us since we started trading.
This isn't a new group of people, this is one we've been working with for at least a century. I see no reason to distrust Queen Azshara and friends.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Say, while we're on the subject, what are we going to do when we run out of Runes to buy off of them? There's only so many Runes, and cultist souls are a replenishing resource, so logically they'll run out eventually. Will we stop giving them souls since we have nothing to buy off of them, or keep doing it because it's an efficient way of ensuring our cultists don't empower Chaos?
Also, did we ever find out what they do with all the excess Chaos souls, like from the Valinor Crusade? They had more souls than they could possibly have needed for sustenance, and I get the impression souls don't 'keep' the way normal food does. Did they just keep the cultists imprisoned until they felt peckish, or do they get stronger when they 'overeat' souls?
I'm also kind of curious what would happen if they ate an Alpha or Alpha+ cultist soul.
Also, did we ever find out what they do with all the excess Chaos souls, like from the Valinor Crusade? They had more souls than they could possibly have needed for sustenance, and I get the impression souls don't 'keep' the way normal food does. Did they just keep the cultists imprisoned until they felt peckish, or do they get stronger when they 'overeat' souls?
I'm also kind of curious what would happen if they ate an Alpha or Alpha+ cultist soul.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
No idea what they do when we run out as long as that will take.
However they don't need the cultist souls for surviving with Durin describing it as roughly analogous with them seeing em as a luxury food (its a rough analogy, because if they saw them as merely a luxury we'd still be on the menu.)
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- Location
- United states
I said Imperial level tech which is around 10 is what several people were against giving the Quartok tech wise before we were aware of exactly where they were tech level wise before.
First off you are under selling how upset many of the Trust members and worlds were with the soul trade and it was so bad it gave us a trait that gives us a malus for interacting with humans from other polities and it took around 50 years and a lot of work to fix our reputation with the rest of the Trust. The problem isn't selling xeno tech, it's potentiall selling high level tech to an Avernite xeno race that sells souls that could make it significantly easier for them to figure out ways to get off world.
Also like I said, they may be local allies for avernus(though I'm not really sure if we are technically allies since we just seem to live on the same planet) but the rest of the Trust likely just sees them as some xenos that just happen to live on Avernus.
...I just said that even if we were sure that they wouldn't want to live Avernus anyway I highly doubt most of the Trust would just accept it. To give an example Surt likely has Men of Stone, I highly doubt the Trust would be in any way cool with them even if he vouched for them. And note I was one of the people that suggested trading tech to the Sirens, I just think that we should be careful with tech traiding with terrifying xeno after we just traded with another xeno race.
Actually IIRC we only know about the level 20 and above tech level races OOC.
The whole not being human thing is really only part of it. Them eating souls and treating human souls is the real issue.
Also in regards to the rest of your post I do agree we are making progress but the way I see it we should also be careful to remember that the rest of the Trust despite being a lot less xenophobic than the old Imperium of Man they are still pretty racist.