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Ignition (MTG/Multicross, Planeswalker PC)

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Alivaril said:
That same hand also serves to cover your retching after you actually sense the mana concentration of the connected structures before you. There's plenty of Blue and White, certainly, but there's also the familiar wrongness of Devoid. It seems to be contained in tiny spirits for the time being, but if enough of them are gathered in one place? They'd collapse and make the area as hostile as Eternity. This many mages might be able to contain such environmental changes, although the predators between planes would be another story entirely. Your predecessor worked hard to conceal this section of Eternity from their gluttonous gazes; the last thing you need is to bring them back.
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So. It's actually my worst-case scenario for corrupted Rukh. It's not just colorless, but Devoid. Instead of just no longer doing it's usual job, it's actively harmful. Oh goody.

More importantly, we get a hint as to why we can only see a small number of planes. It seems like planes have been isolated to hide them from the Eldrazi. Which means we can't see outside of the concealing "bubble".
Sapient_Ham said:
In regards to the vote, I'd prefer to handle this as diplomatically—and discreetly—as possible. In canon Magi the main villains were a group of mages whose objective was to destroy the world. Even if they don't exist in this AU, publicly broadcasting that colorless Rukh in sufficient concentrations can destroy the world/universe to an audience of mages capable of creating them is unwise, to say the least.
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Said organization was probably the source of the information that got Magnostadt to a start doing this, down to their propaganda about how the Rukh govern Fate. Which, to be fair, they do. They also are most likely the force supporting the world, it being artifical and made by magic.

Even without that, screwing with magic concentrations and mana's natural state, on a large scale, on high-mana worlds, seems to be a bad idea. It upsets existing balances, and can cause catastrophes. Thedas' Veil (assuming a similar origin to it's origin in-canon) and Remnant's Black Enchantment seem to be examples of this, as both are massive spells that seem to alter ambient mana levels, and both have produced dangers in the process.

Similarly, disturbances to the mana of many areas of Velgarth from the Cataclysm produced monsters and altered the wildlife, and continue to do so. And it's mana networks display some rudimentary sort of consciousness or will, that actively resists alteration. For good reason. It's not a good idea, most of the time.
Simon_Jester said:
Magnostadt is one of the most magically empowered places on this planet, right? If it's only happening a little here, it's hopefully not happening much elsewhere? At least if this is just experimentation, not that cult people were talking about...
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Introducing Magnostadt to the underlying ideas, then sitting back and letting them do all the work, was their modus operandi, with regards to Magnostadt, in-canon. They helped them build a self-defense device that could, as a side "benefit", gather enough corrupted Rukh in a single spot to summon their god. Then they manipulated things to heve Magnostadt attacked, and by a force that they couldn't otherwise match. In this case, Al-Thaman may simply have played on someone in an important position's personal tragedy, and told them "this is how you fight Fate".

I'd be very surprised if Magnostadt managed to discover Devoid without an outside nudge of some sort. All of the other cases of Devoid use, or possible Devoid use, are either linked with us, or old enough that one of our predecessors might have been involved. This is way too recent to be a predecessor. So either they got it from an ancient source, or people can discover the Eternities without our involvement. Either way, I have some hard questions for whoever "discovered" this.

Additionally, Magnostadt's students do go elsewhere, to apply their talents, sometimes. So there may be Devoid Rukh in other locations, albeit in much smaller amounts.
Vebyast said:
I do not want to say things like "burn the academy to the ground" in front of Nanoha.

On top of that, threats are the worst way to handle this. If we threaten to burn their academy to the ground they're just going to keep doing their research where we can't see it. The only way to keep this from happening again is to get them entirely off the topic and make it officially a no-go, and we do that by handling this diplomatically.
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That may just lead to people doing it where both we and their council can't see. Devoid corrupts. If this is anything like canon, that includes souls.
Yog said:
We need to make it in their interest. Ask them what measures they are taking to prevent total reality collapse. Offer alternative anti-destiny magic. Give some technology and knowledge. Make some of them immortal.
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Not dying horribly is in their interests. I do get your point, though.
 
Vebyast said:
I agree that we have to stop it. However, our fastest route to fixing it is to be diplomatic. Fighting our way through the academy might take hours and it might not even work. Politely asking them to not get everyone's reality eaten by the Eternal Hunger that lives behind the stars has a better chance of working and will happen faster and will mean we don't have to keep coming back here every ten days to tell them to knock it off again.
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What I am saying is that we ask them, but if they say no then we have to take matters into out own hands and inform them of that.
 
Vebyast said:
I do not want to say things like "burn the academy to the ground" in front of Nanoha.

On top of that, threats are the worst way to handle this. If we threaten to burn their academy to the ground they're just going to keep doing their research where we can't see it. The only way to keep this from happening again is to get them entirely off the topic and make it officially a no-go, and we do that by handling this diplomatically.
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I'll second this. Threatening to attack Magnostadt academy (during diplomatic negotiations, of all times) is likely to make solving the Devoid Rukh problem harder, not easier.

fictionfan said:
We still can't let that devoid factory stand. Even leaving it for an hour seems dangerous.
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It is extremely dangerous, but not so dangerous that it requires action right now. Magnostadt has likely been producing these Rukh for months, if not years, and the world hasn't ended yet. An additional hour is probably not going to cause the apocalypse. So there's no need to panic and rush a solution that's going to cause additional problems down the line. (Problems such as, say, a war with Magnostadt.)

Nixeu said:
Said organization was probably the source of the information that got Magnostadt to a start doing this, down to their propaganda about how the Rukh govern Fate.
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Yeah, there's a pretty good chance that organization is behind this. I'd recommend being wary of applying such meta knowledge here, though; every plane so far has been majorly AU.

It's a good idea to handle matters discreetly not because of worries about a possible conspiracy, but because there's an entire city worth of mages that know how to create potentially world ending superweapons listening within earshot. I'd rather no one besides the government know just how absurdly dangerous the forces they're playing with are, otherwise some idiot is going to get the bright idea to "call our bluff".
 
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[X] Tell Agneyastra about the Devoid spirits, mention how insanely dangerous it is, and let her handle it. You cannot into diplomacy.
-[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
-[X] Tell her to handle it discreetly, not in front of a public audience; the mere knowledge that Devoid mana can destroy the world is dangerous, if it reaches the wrong ears.
-[X] If Agneyastra believes the warning/ultimatum would have significantly more impact coming from you, do it yourself, but follow her telepathic coaching.

Yeah. This sounds best for now.
 
[X] Tell Agneyastra about the Devoid spirits, mention how insanely dangerous it is, and let her handle it. You cannot into diplomacy.
-[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
-[X] Tell her to handle it discreetly, not in front of a public audience; the mere knowledge that Devoid mana can destroy the world is dangerous, if it reaches the wrong ears.
-[X] If Agneyastra believes the warning/ultimatum would have significantly more impact coming from you, do it yourself, but follow her telepathic coaching.
 
[X] Tell Agneyastra about the Devoid spirits, mention how insanely dangerous it is, and let her handle it. You cannot into diplomacy.
-[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
-[X] Tell her to handle it discreetly, not in front of a public audience; the mere knowledge that Devoid mana can destroy the world is dangerous, if it reaches the wrong ears.
-[X] If Agneyastra believes the warning/ultimatum would have significantly more impact coming from you, do it yourself, but follow her telepathic coaching.
 
[x] Quick telepathic conference.
-[x] Mostly you and Agneyastra. Include Nanoha, Sidhe, and Mitra so they know what's going on.
-[x] Agneyastra already knows how insanely dangerous Devoid is, but it wouldn't hurt to reiterate and fill in the others.
-[x] Your first instinct: Purge it post-haste. You'll respect Magnostadt's sovereignty and run this through their equivalent of a counter-terrorism or police force, but if they take too long or try to claim to know what they're doing you will take action.
 
Sapient_Ham said:
In regards to the vote, I'd prefer to handle this as diplomatically—and discreetly—as possible. In canon Magi the main villains were a group of mages whose objective was to destroy the world. Even if they don't exist in this AU, publicly broadcasting that colorless Rukh in sufficient concentrations can destroy the world/universe to an audience of mages capable of creating them is unwise, to say the least.
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Sapient_Ham said:
It's a good idea to handle matters discreetly not because of worries about a possible conspiracy, but because there's an entire city worth of mages that know how to create potentially world ending superweapons listening within earshot. I'd rather no one besides the government know just how absurdly dangerous the forces they're playing with are, otherwise some idiot is going to get the bright idea to "call our bluff".
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The group that wants to destroy the world already knows how, they did it once already. And imagine how this would look if we withhold the dangers from the populace: a certain branch of research becoming forbidden for unknown reasons. That can only mean people would continue doing it illegally in secret. But if the public knew that their world is at stake here, then every person who wants to live would oppose it.
 
[X] Tell Agneyastra about the Devoid spirits, mention how insanely dangerous it is, and let her handle it. You cannot into diplomacy.
-[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
-[X] Tell her to handle it discreetly, not in front of a public audience; the mere knowledge that Devoid mana can destroy the world is dangerous, if it reaches the wrong ears.
-[X] If Agneyastra believes the warning/ultimatum would have significantly more impact coming from you, do it yourself, but follow her telepathic coaching.
 
[X] No, you're not okay. They're manufacturing Devoid mana. Do they even realize how horrifyingly dangerous that is?
-[X] Ask them what measures they have against total reality collapse they are courting.
--[X] Give lecture on the nature of Devoid mana and its dangers.
-[X] Unless they do, in fact, have such measures that would satisfy both you and Agneyastra 110%, stopping experimentation with Devoid mana is an absolute requirement for any negotiation
--[X] You are willing to help them create substitutes for whatever it is they use Devoid mana for.

Let's actually try into diplomacy, instead of preemptively caving.
 
fictionfan said:
We are doing the opposite of caving also I don't trust any measures they have taken to be enough. Devoid fails deadly. Any contanment would fail if acted upon by outside forces.
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Caving internally, by not even trying to take charge in the matter (use of devoid mana) where we are the expert on the dangers.

And yes, devoid fails deadly, the risk (total existential collapse) is not worth the reward (freedom from destiny?) from our standpoint (we are not destiny-bound anyway). But think of it from their viewpoint. They might be aware of some danger. By presenting them with a question ("what precautions are you taking against the end of the world you might produce by using this magic?"), we do not antagonize them from the get go. This is important. This gives us an opportunity to actually talk and resolve the issue. Which would probably involve giving them a substitute for the function devoid mana takes now.
 
If what @Sapient_Ham said is true (they are just trying to make colorless Rukh) they may be confsing Colorless with Devoid. In that case it may be useful for our argument to have a direct comparation between Devoid and colorless, but I don't think we have any colorless source of mana.... wait.

@Alivaril how much of Magnostadt land mana is available for tapping? In particular, is the colorless mana available?
 
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I can't remember if Alivaril wants small votes plans but i like this one:

[X] Tell Agneyastra about the Devoid spirits, mention how insanely dangerous it is, and let her handle it. You cannot into diplomacy.
-[X] Include Nanoha, Sidhe, and Mitra so they know what's going on.
-[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
-[X] Tell her to handle it discreetly, not in front of a public audience; the mere knowledge that Devoid mana can destroy the world is dangerous, if it reaches the wrong ears.
-[X] If Agneyastra believes the warning/ultimatum would have significantly more impact coming from you, do it yourself, but follow her telepathic coaching.
Adhoc vote count started by Ayashi on Jun 24, 2018 at 8:40 AM, finished with 52 posts and 24 votes.
  • [X] Tell Agneyastra about the Devoid spirits, mention how insanely dangerous it is, and let her handle it. You cannot into diplomacy.
    -[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
    -[X] Tell her to handle it discreetly, not in front of a public audience; the mere knowledge that Devoid mana can destroy the world is dangerous, if it reaches the wrong ears.
    -[X] If Agneyastra believes the warning/ultimatum would have significantly more impact coming from you, do it yourself, but follow her telepathic coaching.
    [X] No, you're not okay. They're manufacturing Devoid mana. Do they even realize how horrifyingly dangerous that is?
    [X] Tell Agneyastra about the Devoid spirits, mention how insanely dangerous it is, and let her handle it. You cannot into diplomacy.
    -[X] Include Nanoha, Sidhe, and Mitra so they know what's going on.
    -[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
    -[X] Tell her to handle it discreetly, not in front of a public audience; the mere knowledge that Devoid mana can destroy the world is dangerous, if it reaches the wrong ears.
    -[X] If Agneyastra believes the warning/ultimatum would have significantly more impact coming from you, do it yourself, but follow her telepathic coaching.
    [X] No, you're not okay. They're manufacturing Devoid mana. Do they even realize how horrifyingly dangerous that is?
    -[X] Ask them what measures they have against total reality collapse they are courting.
    --[X] Give lecture on the nature of Devoid mana and its dangers.
    -[X] Unless they do, in fact, have such measures that would satisfy both you and Agneyastra 110%, stopping experimentation with Devoid mana is an absolute requirement for any negotiation
    --[X] You are willing to help them create substitutes for whatever it is they use Devoid mana for.
    [X] No, you're not okay. They're manufacturing Devoid mana. Do they even realize how horrifyingly dangerous that is?
    -[X] You CAN tap it yourself, but you know better. In small quantities, it might be able to fuel spells without any visible effects. In larger amounts? It'll grow and grow until it either eats the world or baits the beings that CAN.
    [X] Tell Agneyastra about the Devoid spirits, mention how insanely dangerous it is, and let her handle it. You cannot into diplomacy.
    [X] Order them to cease any and all of their experiments into Devoid mana lest you burn their academy to the ground. You're dealing with a planar-level threat; "overreaction" isn't really in your vocabulary at this point.
    -[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
    [x] Quick telepathic conference.
    -[x] Mostly you and Agneyastra. Include Nanoha, Sidhe, and Mitra so they know what's going on.
    -[x] Agneyastra already knows how insanely dangerous Devoid is, but it wouldn't hurt to reiterate and fill in the others.
    -[x] Your first instinct: Purge it post-haste. You'll respect Magnostadt's sovereignty and run this through their equivalent of a counter-terrorism or police force, but if they take too long or try to claim to know what they're doing you will take action.
    [x] Admit you can do so personally and agree to cure the patients.
    -[X] Offer to cure a few people while their Mages watch. If they can learn the techniques, they're welcome.
    -[X] Use both methods you know, in case they have better luck with one over the other.
    [X] Not immediately, but it could easily be a massive problem.
    -[X] You CAN tap it yourself, but you know better. In small quantities, it might be able to fuel spells without any visible effects. In larger amounts? It'll grow and grow until it either eats the world or baits the beings that CAN.
    [X] Order them to cease any and all of their experiments into Devoid mana lest you burn their academy to the ground. You're dealing with a planar-level threat; "overreaction" isn't really in your vocabulary at this point.
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Filraen said:
@Alivaril how much of Magnostadt land mana is available for tapping? In particular, is the colorless mana available?
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All previously-listed motes are currently available.


Torgamous said:
Old Testament angels can get pretty eldrich.
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AmIdoin'itrite?


Redshirt Army said:
... Maybe Agni having crippling social anxiety was actually common? :V

The 'bow before me' thing could have been just be an act to simplify human relations. :V
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Torgamous said:
"Everyone's staring at me! Please make them stop!"

"You dare look upon your God? Bow, you pathetic mortals!"

"Nooooo! Now they're going to pay even more attention to me!"
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If what Jade has been using it for lately is any indication...

*hands out Internet cookies*
 
Frankenvote time! They're a long a storied tradition in this quest, yes?

[x] Quick telepathic conference.
-[x] Mostly you and Agneyastra. Include Nanoha, Sidhe, and Mitra so they know what's going on.
-[x] Agneyastra already knows how insanely dangerous Devoid is, but it wouldn't hurt to reiterate and fill in the others.
-[x] Your first instinct: Purge it post-haste. You'll respect Magnostadt's sovereignty and run this through their equivalent of a counter-terrorism or police force, but if they take too long or try to claim to know what they're doing you will take action.
[X] Defer to Yastra on whether we'll let her handle things or wether we'll speak ourselves (with telepathic coaching), and how public or private we'll keep things.
[X] If we're the one speaking: No, you're not okay. They're manufacturing Devoid mana. Do they even realize how horrifyingly dangerous that is?
-[X] Ask them what measures they have against total reality collapse they are courting.
--[X] Give lecture on the nature of Devoid mana and its dangers.
---[X] No, you don't know of any such measures yourself besides not using Devoid Mana at all.
---[X] You can use it yourself, more safely than them even, but even you know better.
-[X] Colorless is OK, but they've gone too far out the other side.
-[X] Unless they do, in fact, have such measures that would satisfy both you and Agneyastra 110% (not likely), stopping experimentation with Devoid mana is an absolute requirement for any negotiation
--[X] You are willing to help them create substitutes for whatever it is they use Devoid mana for.
 
So, clearly Jade is a Goddess of Fate, which is why their anti-Fate measures make her unhappy, so they should increase Devoid production to protect themselves from her influence. :p
 
(not really a reply, just some thoughts born from the post)

About Magnostadt's land mana capacity...
Alivaril said:
All previously-listed motes are currently available.
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Interesting, considering Magnostadt hosts many mages it seema like mages here don't use magic from lands, either by being unable (Jade's theory), existing an internal rule against it or simply by never knowing how or not being thaught how (so those five motes remain a huge resource to the few who know how to call them)

[Tinfoil hat mode=ON]In that case, could it be that Magi can actually call mana from lands? Sure they are "famous for posessing infinite magical power" but thay could be misinformation and embelishment from the point of view of people who consider 1/10 of a mote to be expensive even after years or decades of practice.[Tinfoil hat mode=OFF]
 
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If you want to protect yourself against fate red Mana seems like a better choice than Devoid.
 
curiosity said:
The group that wants to destroy the world already knows how, they did it once already. And imagine how this would look if we withhold the dangers from the populace: a certain branch of research becoming forbidden for unknown reasons. That can only mean people would continue doing it illegally in secret. But if the public knew that their world is at stake here, then every person who wants to live would oppose it.
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Who says the Rukh production would have to be forbidden for unknown reasons? The obvious thing to tell the Magnostadt citizenry is the truth: devoid Rukh production is dangerous, and exposure has potentially fatal long-term health effects. (After all, exposure to Eternity is certainly detrimental to one's health...) The key is to keep the magnitude of the danger secret, not the danger itself.

While you're correct that the vast majority of the public would be on our side if they knew the truth, 'vast majority' simply isn't good enough; all it takes is one person, whether malicious or not, to destroy the world. You don't post nuclear codes online just because most people would dogpile anyone who tries to use them. Likewise, you don't publish what amounts to an "Annihilating Reality, for Dummies" book in a city of mages, no matter how moral most of them may be.
 
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