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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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random_npc said:
that's still weird because they don't have a particularly strong anti-demon power set. The soul eating kiss is coup de grace, albeit a nasty one, and their powers are focused around telepathy. I'm fairly sure that demons are resistant to mind control, epically the big ones. You'd think a dedicated demon hunter would have powers that work better against demons than mortals rather than the reverse.
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Slow down just a moment and re-evaluate yourself. What you're doing right now is rejecting the evidence you've been given as much as you can get away with so that you don't have to change your mind. You've been given multiple GM statements saying "Sirens are pretty good at killing daemons" and you're trying to downplay that as much as possible. That is irrational. A cognitive bias is in place and I highly advise that you move past it.

Saying that anti-telepathy is better at the moment is valid. Trying to say the sirens aren't particularly good at daemonslaying isn't.

Doomed Wombat said:
For what, that Queen Azshara is the head queen, that she's an alpha level and that as a result she's more powerful than her normal subordinates who are here?
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That the Queen and Court we have fighting for us is different from the Queen and Court we saw in that omake, or that they're weaker than what we saw.
 
HanEmpire said:
[*]Siren: Minor, Siren Lady: Delta, Siren Queen:Beta ,Queen Azshara: Low Alpha
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Andres110 said:
That the Queen and Court we have fighting for us is different from the Queen and Court we saw in that omake.
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Given what we know of Durin's system the difference between a high beta and a low alpha is a bit like the difference between a byplane and a fighter jet. Gimmie a sec to look up the psyker chart Durin gave us.

As for the court...I seem to remember Durin mentioning that the power of the Siren also influences the power of their court given the effect beta Xavier had on Mittens I'm willing to believe it.

Andres110 said:
Slow down just a moment and re-evaluate yourself. What you're doing right now is rejecting the evidence you've been given as much as you can get away with so that you don't have to change your mind. You've been given multiple GM statements saying "Sirens are pretty good at killing daemons" and you're trying to downplay that as much as possible. That is irrational. A cognitive bias is in place and I highly advise that you move past it.
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TBF I can understand why he's doubtful I am too, TBH.
 
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Xavier and Rotbart are good at daemon-slaying, but we aren't exactly sending them out to the front, are we, now?
 
A Daemon Slayer Avenus creature makes you think more of a unstoppable killing machine. Like take the Doom Slayer and make a Avernite beast based on that idea of being the best murder blender it can be. Lots of Pyromancy, Fulminton, Telekinesis and Biomancy with some Divnation for that sweet precog.
 
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@Andres110

Yeah the power difference is pretty big.

A high level beta has a power bonus of 275 and a scale multiplier of 36, but moving to alpha knocks that up 300 with a multiplier of 108.

This is cooborated by other stuff (for instance Durin told us Alpha's break the psyker power scale which before had a fairly understandable power curve)

An easy example of this is here

Durin said:
Beta 121-144 LY
Alpha 363-432 LY
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Look at the difference between an alpha and beta level neo astropath.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Given what we know of Durin's system the difference between a high beta and a low alpha is a bit like the difference between a byplane and a fighter jet. Gimmie a sec to look up the psyker chart Durin gave us.

As for the court...I seem to remember Durin mentioning that the power of the Siren also influences the power of their court.
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I know who Azshara is and I know she's an Alpha. I just haven't seen Durin say anything about Azshara and the Queen we have being two different people.

Doomed Wombat said:
How does my vote count as security?
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It means my plan breaks even if it loses a voter.


@Durin

1. Are random_npc's and Doomed Wombat's estimations of the sirens' ability against daemons accurate? Are they in fact not particularly good at killing daemons?
2. Is the Siren Queen in the Military sheet Azshara?
3. How significant of a telepathic effect will their Heralds and Greater Daemons have?
4. If we dedicate military forces to keeping mundane forces off of the Sirens as in my plan, roughly how many casualties will the Sirens take when fighting daemons?
5. Without Sirens, roughly how well will our troops be able to handle the daemons if we pick Regulars, Half Reserve Elites, and Inner Side Stronger?
 
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Adhoc vote count started by HanEmpire on Jan 22, 2018 at 7:45 PM, finished with 241 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X] Plan Continuation War
    -[X] Rely on Regulars- This force should be able to easily handle the enemy stormtroopers and slow down Astartes and Sisters as well as inflict some damage to them. This will make a slight impact on your reserves.
    -[X] Deploy half your elites to the field and keep half in reserve. -This will leave you with a significant reserve force of elites while reinforcing your main combat zones.
    -[X] Have the defences on the inner side of the districts stronger-By deploying a greater number of your elites to the inner walls of the districts you should be able to slow the Chaos Space Marines and Sisters of Battle significantly.
    -[X] Psykers
    --[X] Scry and Fry (Psyker Choirs)
    ---[X] Ridcully, Xavier, 1st Pyromancy Choir (1/2 Turn), 1st Divination Choir + 2nd Pyromancy Choir (1/2 Turn)
    --[X] Support Troops/Fortifications
    ---[X] Both Biomancer Choirs (1/2 Turn), 1st Telekinetic Choir (3/4 Turn), Troll Geomancers (3/4 Turn)
    --[X] Dispel/Countertelepathy
    ---[X] Lulana, 1st Daemonology Choir (1/2 Turn), Tamia, Both Telepathy Choirs (1/2 Turn), Sirens (3/4 Turns)
    -[X] Other
    --[X] Continue EW on enemy.
    --[X] Leave the Black Crystal Necklace with Tamia.
    --[X] Lend Black Crystal Sword to Jacob
    --[X] Eliminate Sorceror Lords and Chaos Lords joining the pushes.
    ---[X] Primaris Executioner Forces, Psyker Regiments, Psyker Squads, Black Irons, Psyker Hunters, Witch Hunters, Last Hunters, Jane, Aria, Jacob with 2nd Daemonology Choir and 2nd Telekinetic Choir support.
    --[X] Ambush small groups of Astartes at a time, whittling away their numbers.
    ---[X] Trolls, Phase Tigers, Veteran Infiltration Psyker Regiments with 2nd Diviner Choir support (3/4 Turn).
    --[X] Slowly give away as appropriate to prevent Abomination from becoming too desperate, if we succeed excessively.
    [X] Plan Sirens vs Daemons
    -[X] Rely on Regulars- This force should be able to easily handle the enemy stormtroopers and slow down Astartes and Sisters as well as inflict some damage to them. This will make a slight impact on your reserves.
    -[X] Deploy half your elites to the field and keep half in reserve. -This will leave you with a significant reserve force of elites while reinforcing your main combat zones.
    -[X] Have the defences on the inner side of the districts stronger-By deploying a greater number of your elites to the inner walls of the districts you should be able to slow the Chaos Space Marines and Sisters of Battle significantly.
    -[X] Psykers
    --[X] Scry and Fry (Psyker Choirs)
    ---[X] Ridcully, Xavier, 1st Pyromancy Choir (1/2 Turn), 1st Divination Choir + 2nd Pyromancy Choir (1/2 Turn)
    --[X] Support Troops/Fortifications
    ---[X] Both Biomancer Choirs (1/2 Turn), 1st Telekinetic Choir (3/4 Turn), Troll Geomancers
    --[X] Dispel/Countertelepathy
    ---[X] Lulana, 1st Daemonology Choir (1/2 Turn), Tamia, Both Telepathy Choirs (1/2 Turn)
    --[X] Anti-Daemon
    ---[X] Sirens (focus on Seraphim and up)
    -[X] Other
    --[X] Support the Sirens with military. Keep their unfavoured enemies off them so they only have to fight daemons.
    --[X] Lure Seraphim and up into a trap where the Sirens can consume them.
    --[X] Continue EW on enemy.
    --[X] Leave the Black Crystal Necklace with Tamia.
    --[X] Lend Black Crystal Sword to Jacob
    --[X] Eliminate Sorceror Lords and Chaos Lords joining the pushes.
    ---[X] Primaris Executioner Forces, Psyker Regiments, Psyker Squads, Black Irons, Psyker Hunters, Witch Hunters, Last Hunters, Jane, Aria, Jacob with 2nd Daemonology Choir and 2nd Telekinetic Choir support.
    --[X] Ambush small groups of Astartes at a time, whittling away their numbers.
    ---[X] Trolls, Phase Tigers, Veteran Infiltration Psyker Regiments with 2nd Diviner Choir support (3/4 Turn).
    --[X] Slowly give away as appropriate to prevent Abomination from becoming too desperate, if we succeed excessively.
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Andres110 said:
Slow down just a moment and re-evaluate yourself. What you're doing right now is rejecting the evidence you've been given as much as you can get away with so that you don't have to change your mind. You've been given multiple GM statements saying "Sirens are pretty good at killing daemons" and you're trying to downplay that as much as possible. That is irrational. A cognitive bias is in place and I highly advise that you move past it.

Saying that anti-telepathy is better at the moment is valid. Trying to say the sirens aren't particularly good at daemonslaying isn't.
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I'm not saying they re bad at their intended purpose. I'm just pointing out we have 2 bits of information that conflict. we know sirens are made to hunt demons, but the power set they've shown until now is poorly suited to directly combating demons. Something doesn't fit. Either they do have specialized anti demon powers we haven't seen, or they are intended to function as part of a unit.
 
Andres110 said:
@Shard, I am going to kindly ask that you revise how you're doing these pro/con lists. This is the second time you've made one and you evidently cannot help but be biased and misleading when it comes to making these assessments. Standard etiquette is to at least try and make a fair comparison and you clearly are not.

Pros:
Kills Daemons, with the attendant effects of doing so (Less enemy psykers, less summoned daemons, potential difficulty in future summonings).
Potentially augments Sirens
Data

Cons:
Reveals an asset/ace to the Abomination.
Weakens telepathic defence
Risks Sirens
Overkill
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'Data' and 'Overkill' or not Pros/Cons, respectively.

Naturally they aren't on the list.
Andres110 said:
1. It's either their psykers performing mind control or their daemons. If we buff psychic defence, more of our men will be controlled by daemons. If we kill daemons, more of our men will be controlled by psykers with telepathy, both by the daemons in play and the daemons the daemons can summon.
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This doesn't even make sense. Unless you're saying their mind-controlling daemons are going out to the front, which makes very little sense.
Andres110 said:
1. We have daemonologists dispelling while our pyromancers burn their psykers. Doesn't bridge the gap, admittedly, but for the rest, see point 1 above and the fact that we slow the rate at which mind-control units are summoned.
2. An admitted con. I don't think using them potentially sub-optimally throughout the war is worth it, though.
3. Based on their strength stated by Durin and effectiveness shown in the omake, I don't think they'll die so easily that there'll be a substantial effect to future anti-telepathy efforts. So long as we're not stupid or careless with them, we don't have to worry about diplomatic incident. Sirens killing daemons are also highly unlikely to die, given what we've seen of them and what we've been told about them.
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By the way, with the current plan, we have half of a Lulana and a Daemonology Choir, as compared to Lulana and both Daemonology Choirs. This actually worries me slightly. Our psychic power is significantly weaker this turn. By a LOT. And now you want to bring the dispellers elsewhere.
Andres110 said:
Ask Shard to change it. I want my plan to be observably better rather than alternate to his plan.
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Andres110 said:
Bring up that argument to Shard. Unless you're willing to vote for my plan if I make that change, I'll wait until Shard does first.
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This is incredibly awful and discouraging.

You do realize that a plan that sends Sirens to the front should be built entirely differently, and not simply as used an 'add-on'? How do I even put out that this is a terrible thing? It's like.. uhh, okay, you decide to use Plasma Batteries instead of Macrocanon Batteries because 'they're better', and then blindly copy the rest of my design notes. And then now your design literally runs out of power because yours needs more power that I didn't include in my design because I didn't need that power.
 
Andres110 said:
I know who Azshara is and I know she's an Alpha. I just haven't seen Durin say anything about Azshara and the Queen we have being two different people.
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Durin said:
Queen Azshara agreed to deploy a large number of of Sirens to protect the cities of the Azure Islands and Roke Island, allowing you to concentrate your forces elsewhere. She tells you that there are also eight Queen who are willing to place themselves and their personal courts, each consisting of a few dozen ladies and a few hundred normal Sirens at your disposal for this campaign. This is a massive force of telepaths that will almost certainly be able to match the Abomination forces in their domain. It is also a good reminder why you have a peace treaty with the Sirens, if that is what they can spare after agreeing to protect a whole set of cities and their own domain...
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She's always been the head honcho even when we first established our treaty and she's currently keeping her home defended and preparing for the possible incursion with other queens as beta levels of various degrees.
 
Fuck it. The gap's grown too large anyway.

Here's a plan that cannot be argued to in any way be worse than Shard's plan, and is in fact objectively better. If you're voting for his plan, you have absolutely no reason not to switch your vote to this one.

[X] Plan Shard's Except Objectively Better
-[X] Rely on Regulars- This force should be able to easily handle the enemy stormtroopers and slow down Astartes and Sisters as well as inflict some damage to them. This will make a slight impact on your reserves.
-[X] Deploy half your elites to the field and keep half in reserve. -This will leave you with a significant reserve force of elites while reinforcing your main combat zones.
-[X] Have the defences on the inner side of the districts stronger-By deploying a greater number of your elites to the inner walls of the districts you should be able to slow the Chaos Space Marines and Sisters of Battle significantly.
-[X] Psykers
--[X] Scry and Fry (Psyker Choirs)
---[X] Ridcully, Xavier, 1st Pyromancy Choir (1/2 Turn), 1st Divination Choir + 2nd Pyromancy Choir (1/2 Turn)
--[X] Support Troops/Fortifications
---[X] Both Biomancer Choirs (1/2 Turn), 1st Telekinetic Choir (3/4 Turn), Troll Geomancers
--[X] Dispel/Countertelepathy
---[X] Lulana, 1st Daemonology Choir (1/2 Turn), Tamia, Both Telepathy Choirs (1/2 Turn), Sirens (3/4 Turns)
-[X] Other
--[X] Continue EW on enemy.
--[X] Leave the Black Crystal Necklace with Tamia.
--[X] Lend Black Crystal Sword to Jacob
--[X] Eliminate Sorceror Lords and Chaos Lords joining the pushes.
---[X] Primaris Executioner Forces, Psyker Regiments, Psyker Squads, Black Irons, Psyker Hunters, Witch Hunters, Last Hunters, Jane, Aria, Jacob with 2nd Daemonology Choir and 2nd Telekinetic Choir support.
--[X] Ambush small groups of Astartes at a time, whittling away their numbers.
---[X] Trolls, Phase Tigers, Veteran Infiltration Psyker Regiments with 2nd Diviner Choir support (3/4 Turn).
--[X] Slowly give away as appropriate to prevent Abomination from becoming too desperate, if we succeed excessively.
 
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Doomed Wombat said:
I protest :mad: :p (But, seriously I do.)

But, seriously though @Shard I am very much considering switching.
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Do it. His decision to keep the geomancers for only 3/4 of a turn is utterly worthless. It does nothing but make our forces less effective and kill our troops as a result. Trolls don't get fatigued so there's no reason to have them rest, but he's making them rest anyway.
 
Andres110 said:
Do it. His decision to keep the geomancers for only 3/4 of a turn is utterly worthless. It does nothing but make our forces less effective and kill our troops as a result. Trolls don't get fatigued so there's no reason to have them rest, but he's making them rest anyway.
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On the subject of fatigue its waaaay past my bed time.

Shard said:
Overworking the Troll Geomancers now.
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No he's right we've never had any indicator that they get tired like our psykers do and we've had them active for over 2 turns reinforcing an entire hive now.
 
@Shard the only problem I have with your plan is giving the black sword to Jacob. Rotbart is far more important than Jacob and more likely to end up fighting space marines.
 
Nurgle said:
@Shard the only problem I have with your plan is giving the black sword to Jacob. Rotbart is far more important than Jacob and more likely to end up fighting space marines.
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If it's only for the turn I'm fine with it personally, but I do want Rotbart to have ALL of his black crystal bling when it comes time for a climactic final battle.

And doesn't Jacob have his own sword that he got from the caverns anyways?
 
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