Witches and Giants: A NorseQuest Riot Fangame

Okay, so, you know what the best dodge move in close combat is?
"Reaction: move."
As in: boost Movement and take a Move action, so that you're now nearby and they simply can not hit you anymore. I thought this was pretty obvious, but...apparently it's not.

If you want to play a high mobility style, play a high mobility style.

If your plan is to stand in front of your opponent and trade blows, Durability should be the superior defensive choice.

What Coat just posted.

If you plan on dodging everything the way to do that, is by not being there.

Even if y'all insist on trying to go for min-maxed "I have this one strategy, and I'll break the system, before I change it" builds, I will point it out, again and again, that that is not the intended use of this system.

Yes, you can specialize.

No, you can not expect that one solution will always work.

This is not only directed at you, DMW, but I feel like y'all keep getting stuck on the specific things that were provided as examples and then try to stuff everything into neat little boxes, while Coat tried to put in dozens of labels how that's not the intended way of playing this.

People harked about "Laser" Astrid, and she just ran into a Tree that eats Light (as plants are wont to do). That was not specifically planned as a counter to that character, but what it is, is a great example of how being a "one trick pony" does not work in this game.

Similar things could happen to any one specific strategy you might've come up with.

Yes, this is a fantasy setting, and it runs on narrativium fueled, Rule of Coolness abiding, creativity machines.

It's still grounded, at least that's what I think, in the core of realism that makes the Written World so compelling. "Every Norseman is a Farmer."

You are playing warriors, merchants, farmers, sailors and whatever else, all in the package of one (more or less) human being.

You're neither playing hyper-specialized super soldiers, nor some "eastern" cultivation Old Monsters that have spend millennia contemplating one thing, so that they can now apply it to every obstacle they encounter.

tl;dr: Dodging has it's mechanic. Twists have their mechanic. Tricks have another mechanic. Don't break the systems intent, to fit your ideal. Find ways of achieving what you want with what the system offers you.

@CoatRackRanger sorry about going on this huge tangent about the game philosophy and stuff. Maybe it's best if you make a judgement call about this thing about Tricks copying effects of Twists, since that seems to be the core question, from a game mechanics point of view.

((And also sorry to you, @DeadmanwalkingXI, I don't want to dismiss your concerns or ideas for how you want to build your character. It's just been a bit more 'arguing' these past few days than I really enjoy, and I don't like 'debate' style conversation, especially not over the internet. Tends to make me write stuff like this post...oh well. Also, it's closing in on 2am, so I should go to be no (it's finally cooled down some)...))
 
"Reaction: move."
As in: boost Movement and take a Move action, so that you're now nearby and they simply can not hit you anymore. I thought this was pretty obvious, but...apparently it's not.

I mean, as I understand it, that only works in specific contexts. They can still move after you, so you need to have a higher Movement than theirs, and it only works if you're outside and willing to abandon comrades, and not on a ship, and not using high range attacks, and...I can go on for a while about how conditional that is.

If your plan is to stand in front of your opponent and trade blows, Durability should be the superior defensive choice.

I mean, my plan, thematically, is to have a super power of turning into air to dodge while remaining in place. Which I have invested heavily into doing and seems like a pretty cool concept that should work.

If you plan on dodging everything the way to do that, is by not being there.

Even if y'all insist on trying to go for min-maxed "I have this one strategy, and I'll break the system, before I change it" builds, I will point it out, again and again, that that is not the intended use of this system.

I don't want to dodge everything and break the system, I want dodge focus without a heavy investment in Durability to be a valid defensive strategy that's not completely invalidated by anyone with solid Attack Speed or if you're in a remotely enclosed space.

Having Tricks that let you turn a graze into a miss isn't actually a mechanical issue if they're significantly pricier than attacks. And they are, because being Reflexive makes them expensive.

tl;dr: Dodging has it's mechanic. Twists have their mechanic. Tricks have another mechanic. Don't break the systems intent, to fit your ideal. Find ways of achieving what you want with what the system offers you.

I did? There was an extensive discussion with Coat involving Tricks like the one I posted. Like...at no point were those ever stated as impossible? Even a little? Details have shifted a few times but that discussion was about the current system iteration and 'there are no dodge Tricks' is a big change that should probably have gotten a mention if true.

((And also sorry to you, @DeadmanwalkingXI, I don't want to dismiss your concerns or ideas for how you want to build your character. It's just been a bit more 'arguing' these past few days than I really enjoy, and I don't like 'debate' style conversation, especially not over the internet. Tends to make me write stuff like this post...oh well. Also, it's closing in on 2am, so I should go to be no (it's finally cooled down some)...))

Sorry about that, and the above. I'm just...like, I built the character specifically around the existence of things like this, with explicit QM approval, at least as I understood it. Like...I wanted to be extra sure it was okay and asked specifically and was told 'Yes'.

So...yeah my perspective is 'I asked the QM if this was okay, and was told yes, in general'. Details may get fiddled with, and that's fine, but this whole thing of not allowing Dodge Tricks to do that seems like a huge overreaction to me given that allowing Dodge Tricks as suggested, based on my look at the system, doesn't even make it as good as a Durability focused build most of the time (since it costs Ordstirr and reactions per defense). It winds up roughly comparable to conjured items to block, a bit better vs. big attacks, but requiring significantly more stat investment.
 
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Even if y'all insist on trying to go for min-maxed "I have this one strategy, and I'll break the system, before I change it" builds, I will point it out, again and again, that that is not the intended use of this system.
If the system can't deal with somebody deciding "I want to hit people really hard" or "I want to be able to dodge arrows" or "i want to be really tanky" or "let's see how many attacks I can make in a round" then the system needs serious work.
People harked about "Laser" Astrid, and she just ran into a Tree that eats Light (as plants are wont to do). That was not specifically planned as a counter to that character, but what it is, is a great example of how being a "one trick pony" does not work in this game.
The fact that there are monsters that counter Other-Astrid does not change the fact that they hit harder than my finale and that I'm 90% sure she could 1 shot me even in Berserkergang.

Also, the current build is not even the most broken way you could do what Jaguar has done.
 
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If the system can't deal with somebody deciding "I want to hit people really hard" or "I want to be able to dodge arrows" or "i want to be really tanky" or "let's see how many attacks I can make in a round" then the system needs serious work.

For the record, I think the current version of the system is fine for most of this, assuming Dodge Tricks do indeed work. There are potentially still issues with a few things, but not basic concepts.

The fact that there are monsters that counter Other-Astrid does not change the fact that they hit harder than my finale and that I'm 90% sure she could 1 shot me even in Berserkergang.

Also, the current build is not even the most broken way you could do what Jaguar has done.

In fairness, her build is an Ordstirr hog and not super durable. I think your flurry of blows thing would wreck her as easily as she can wreck you. There's maybe a tiny bit of fine-tuning still to do there, but her focus is on hitting like a truck, so she can.
 
Wait, something changed? Because from what I can see that trick costs 7 Ord at refined, that's not super expensive.

It's less her attacks and more the rest of it. Her only actual defense is only once per turn and 3 Ordstirr a pop (and, to be clear, would become way spendier if it were repeatable), and all her buffs and utility effects are pricey. Like, her Attack Speed is 1, maybe as high as 3 with shapeshifts. If she wants to hit anything dodgy, she needs to prebuff and that takes Ordstirr and actions both.

She hits like a damn truck, but her build is far from unbeatable. It was a lot more problematic when buffs were Potency based and so was object creation, but without those, it's specialized but seems reasonable enough.
 
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Realized there were a couple of errors in my hypothetical Trick List, either my own fault or due to rules changes, @CoatRackRanger use this list whenever you get around to ruling on my Tricks here, no rush. I just realized the previous list was more likely to confuse than be useful given the errors.

Chain Kunna:

Upgrade Chain Strike to this: Powerful Attack, Repeatable, Simple (4 Ordstirr, +1 per subsequent attack)
Chain Conjuration – Conjures multiple chains and makes an immediate attack with them, they remain around and available for attacking for some time – Buff to Attack Speed + Powerful Attack (6 Ordstirr)
Writhing Chain Defense – Creates shield/armor of chains to intercept attacks and provide additional durability – Reactive Normal Buff to Durability, Simple (7 Ordstirr)
Double Chain Attack – Attacks simultaneously with multiple chains – Powerful Attack x2 (8 Ordstirr)

These all see straightforward, I think?

Wind-Step Martial Style:

Wind-Dance – Sets up an ongoing almost meditative focus that allows rapid and constant shifting in and out of wind-form for a time – Reactive Normal Buff to Movement, Simple (7 Ordstirr)
Finisher – Blood Eagle (Easy Condition - Hiiting 1/3 Max Bonus; Powerful Attack-like; Executes enemies w/ one-quarter health remaining) Turning into wind, you enter an enemies throat and lungs and then reconstitute, often exploding out of their back, high damage, single target. (3 Ordstirr)
Single-Step – Turns into wind even more momentarily than usual while also dodging to avoid an attack completely – Makes a Graze into a Miss -Weak Effect, Reactive, Simple (3 Ordstirr)

These last two are a bit more complicated. Blood Eagle is basically the approved version...how much more extra Ordstirr to make Blood Eagle ignore armor?

Single Step gets into the Dodge Tricks question, and my previous version I screwed up a little (adding Fleeting doesn't work on instant effects, so I needed to downgrade it a bit), but the discussion on Discord came to the conclusion that the following table was valid for Dodge Tricks:

Weak: Graze into Miss
Standard: Hit into Graze or Graze into Miss
Powerful: Hit into Miss

And then, of course, the x4 for Reflexive makes them...pricey, to say the least, but doable. Especially if you tack on Repeatable (which I will eventually). But that does work, right?
 
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Alright, it's time for funky shenanigans.

[X] Tyrfingr
-[X] Minor 1&2: Take care of aminals, using T2 land of course
-[X] Eat T2 Food (gained from aminal care)
-[X] Free Action 1: Spend time with Boda Manslayer
-[X] Free Action 2: Treat with those seeking me out for wood-based reasons. One at a time, of course. Not all together.

I would also like to see if I can't go ahead and mediate for Alfvin and Brenda as a free action. If not, it'll probably be my Major.

Minor 1: You care for your cattle. 3 units of Tier 2 Food.
Minor 2: You care for your sheep. 1 unit of Tier 1 Food and 1 unit of Tier 2 Wool.

Free Action 1: Will PM soon.
Free Action 2: Will PM soon.
 
Mid Winter 1 Start
Klaus Square stumbles into Finningur, feet bleeding from running from his farm in the hills into town. His field hands are dead. His daughter is dead, Fylgja slain then body eaten. Astrid Bjornsdottir is dead. The Screaming Tree is worse than any had expected.



Minor Actions for Early Winter 1 have been resolved.

Please post your Major Actions for Winter 1 and food you are eating, if applicable.
 
[X] Katla will provide the Sjavarfli 1 Tier 1 food, so that they have been given 5 food.
[X] WolfsQuest
Aria the Mage threw 1 6-faced dice. Reason: Luck Total: 3
3 3
 
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I intend it to be just Majors. There's a "before Majors" category and an "after Majors" category; I think a "during Majors" category is confusing and maybe a little duplicative. If that's unreasonable or going to screw you over, I'll let you edit in some Early Winter actions, this one time.

I think Astmund was gonna rearrange his slightly. @OneArmedYeti you were gonna do two fishing actions in the Early Winter if this was the case weren't you?
 
[X] Astrid Bjornsdottir Mid-Winter 1 Action
-[X] Major Action: Astrid goes and kills the damn Screaming Tree for revenge

I added to my Early Winter 1 action that I ate a T1 Food and spent both my minor actions training my Light Kunna
 
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[X] Arne Gormsson Mid-Winter 1 Action
- [X] Major Action: Join the battle against the tree taking over Klaus Square's Farm
 
[X] Torvi Sword-Sister Mid-Winter 1
-[X] Food: T2 Food
-[X] Major Action: Join the battle against the tree taking over Klaus Square's Farm

@CoatRackRanger, would it be possible to have Torvi bring barrels filled with water on her way to deal with the Screaming Tree? Preferably as many as she can carry with 5 strength.
 
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Alright, it looks like the tree is covered, so does anyone want to go poke the wolves with me?
And can someone who dealt with the wolves earlier fill me in on what they know?
 
[X] Astrid Bjornsdottir Mid-Winter 1 Action
-[X] Food: T1 Food
-[X] Major Action: Astrid goes and kills the damn Screaming Tree for revenge
-[X] Minor Action: Trains Resplendent Vainglory
-[X] Minor Action: Trains Light Kunna
Just to be clear, this is just the time for your Winter 1 Major Actions.
I think you already did the two training actions, no?

Alright, it looks like the tree is covered,
And also @rest of the thread:

Currently the Kyrksangr Vanishing quest still needs one more person to join, and the Skittering Tide quest needs at least two more.
 
I mean, I'm always on deck to play field medic, as long as there's no expectation I'll be on the front line.
 
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