In this particular case, they'd prefer you buy from China, the NCR, etc. The places and people you're approaching form critical parts of their diplomatic, economic, and -- increasingly -- military security, so as you take attention, some amount will turn from them.
China can ship high-value items like ATGMs, MANPADS and even components of SAM systems by air but they are almost as far away as PACS, and have to travel much closer to Russian- and Japanese-held waters.

Its 6100 miles to ship cargo from Shanghai to San Francisco, and 6400 miles to LA, assuming shortest course.
Its 7100 miles from Brisbane to San Francisco, and 7200 miles to Los Angeles, assuming shortest course.
And as reliant on California's cooperation for it all, anyway.

The NCR is possible.
Viable even, and would be able to keep delivering even after war breaks out.
Someone else would have to pay the NCR to build that stuff. Which would be a win-win, frankly.

The question is mostly political: Do we trust the NCR to be able to deliver, on time and without political chicanery?

Europe is the most fast and accessible for us to get weapons and other industry stuff ncr and China will likely require relying on expensive cargo planes, and it doesn't solve that we need to rebuild industry and need engineers and other specialists so unless they can somehow grow them in a few weeks for us they are being unrealistic in expecting us to somehow industrialize without them and fight Victoria which still would be much like to kill us and also kill them which it seems they have forgotten.
Europe would require rebuilding the road and rail from the NYC-Newark-Philadelphia-Baltimore area to the Commonwealth.
Call that 800 miles of road/rail corridor.

I dont really trust Victoria enough to send arms shipments through the St Lawrence Seaway.
And once war breaks out, we probably would not be able to receive anything along the rail/land route because it would be in range of strikes and marauders out of Victoria. Air maybe, as long as its an EU flagged plane.


China would require at a minimum, the NCR's involvement for flyover rights and refuelling even if they were using strategic cargo aircraft to move time-sensive stuff. More realistically, it would require Lifeline of the West to dock in Cali ports, offload and ship tens of thousands of tons of equipment and infrastructure by rail. Or the Mississipi plan.


The actual fastest here is likely to be California.
Especially since they can retool industry that Russia demanded that they reserve to support Victoria's military cosplaying to produce modern gear for the Commonwealth, and get paid for it. And use the Lifeline of the West all year round.

And it would subsidize an expansion of their industry at the one time they probably need it.

To clarify: you absolutely have a sufficient quantity of force to beat Minneapolis. Almost trivially. They're not a single city — they control much of the south of the state and especially its most urban areas, which is why the option characterizes the balance of force as being possibly in their favor even with Bemidji's explosive growth and prior warning — but they're a flea next to you. However, you did not take the option to get a part of your army configured for standing service. You will need to succeed in a mobilization action to get troops mustered and deployed in time to preempt this plan, if you intend to do so with military force. The plan was doubtless that you wouldn't rumble their preparations — and if you hadn't taken the option, or beaten the DC, you wouldn't have — and thus wouldn't be able to react in time. And then, well, preventing an ally from falling is one thing, but does Chicago really want to invade for a memory?

Don't picture Russia making a bet that they can beat America in a fight; picture Russia making a bet that if Crimea falls before anybody knows what's going on, then America won't honor its security guarantees to Ukraine because it's already done and they're not willing to send Americans to die for it.
Ah. A Putin Play. Building foreign policy on the presumption of a short victorious war.

They ascribe more pragmatism to us than they should for a polity that chose to keep a Revivalist conference in continuous operation as opposed to moving to dealing with other power players.
Especially after the thing Mary did to the Shawnee Kingdom dude's economy and diplomatic standing.

Thank you for the clarification.
 
The plan was doubtless that you wouldn't rumble their preparations — and if you hadn't taken the option, or beaten the DC, you wouldn't have — and thus wouldn't be able to react in time. And then, well, preventing an ally from falling is one thing, but does Chicago really want to invade for a memory?
We are literally called revivalists. Our political ideology is built in large part around fighting for a memory of the US, with the popular consciousness shaped by the tragedy of letting it's sucessor states fall apart for so long. They are betting on us not retaliating for trying to annex one of the more legitimate successor to the old US government. This wasn't a particularly good bet. Even aside from that, the CFC is an emerging power interested in having their alliances taken very seriously and not setting a precedent for "it's safest to annex weak CFC allied revivalist factions before the CFC really takes an interest in your region, since they will just accept that and do diplomacy with the victor instead".

Supposing their plan had worked and they would have annexed Bemidji before we could respond, we would have the perfect casus belli for marching into the region and create a CFC integrated regional authority with popular support in our area of accesses to Mississippi . Which is something we want, whereas we aren't going to be enthusiastic about to establish ties with local opportunists in a critical region that just slapped us in our face. This is a very dumb decision driven largely by desperation to act before the local balance of power gets even worse. Minneapolis is criminally stupid, we should mobilize and beat them just for this reason.
 
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The FCNY has raised concerns at the Revivalist Council about your encroachment into their traditional sphere of influence -- both in poaching people from the expatriate networks that give them so much influence in Europe, and in your direct approaches to the same defense manufacturers even now handling the FCNY's own rapid rearmament. This will escalate to the Revivalist Council...
Uh huh.
[ ] Financier: This body is going to need a long of funding and the skills to manage it, and nobody on the continent is as wealthy as the Free City of New York. They are no longer the financial center of the world, but they know money, and have connections to get some. It'll mean handing quite a bit of power to them that cannot subsequently be taken back or controlled, but granting them the authority to handle the body's finances will invest them in it, freeing you up from having to manage them as closely as you're going to have to manage the other big players. +5 with FCNY.

[X] Plan Reconstruction
-[X] Concession:
--[X] Financier: +5 with FCNY.
:thonk:
 
We're getting a boomstick supplier. I just wonder if the new boomsticks will arrive in time for when we help Bermidji.
No, but also no need.

To clarify: you absolutely have a sufficient quantity of force to beat Minneapolis. Almost trivially. They're not a single city — they control much of the south of the state and especially its most urban areas, which is why the option characterizes the balance of force as being possibly in their favor even with Bemidji's explosive growth and prior warning — but they're a flea next to you. However, you did not take the option to get a part of your army configured for standing service. You will need to succeed in a mobilization action to get troops mustered and deployed in time to preempt this plan, if you intend to do so with military force. The plan was doubtless that you wouldn't rumble their preparations — and if you hadn't taken the option, or beaten the DC, you wouldn't have — and thus wouldn't be able to react in time. And then, well, preventing an ally from falling is one thing, but does Chicago really want to invade for a memory?
It may save us some trouble down the road if our diplomats develop some aptitude for smiling cheerily while holding a large axe and saying "yes. Yes we do!"
 
And then, well, preventing an ally from falling is one thing, but does Chicago really want to invade for a memory?
It's not a bad assumption to make. It's probably pretty clear to everyone we are on a tight timetable to be ready for round two with Victoria. If they could win, present themselves as the power still standing and then offer cooperation? When the alternative is a distraction right when we can least afford it? It would be a deal with a devil but we have made similar ones before.

That's not to say we would take it but from Minneapolis' perspective it could work.
 
Okay two things, who's the guy that the nurse killed and I just realized that they were talking about Minnesota and not Montana
 
Okay two things, who's the guy that the nurse killed and I just realized that they were talking about Minnesota and not Montana
The airforce dude we sent Burns to recruit who turned out to have survived by pillaging and being such an asshole there was literally a vote whether or not to just kill him and his subordinates.

We voted to take him and his planes back with us in order to give our airforce a jumpstart.
 
It's absolutely understandable that Minneapolis is Doing Something. What, were they supposed to just lie down and become irrelevant when the new regional power obviously favored their long standing local enemy?
 
wow New York City being aggrieved when theyre reminded that they're not the only place on the continent where things happen, who could have seen this coming
 
It's absolutely understandable that Minneapolis is Doing Something. What, were they supposed to just lie down and become irrelevant when the new regional power obviously favored their long standing local enemy?
Thats hilariously terrible strategic decisionmaking when you dont have the biggest guns around.

Engage diplomatically, or not at all.
Even economically would have a chance; they still have an excellent geographic position, and legacy assets from the old US state like a couple universities, for retaining influence in Minnesota.

Better than the alternative where they tried to institute a draft and raise an expeditionary army without Chicago or Bemidji noticing. Then they would send the bulk of their army to attack and occupy an enemy, leaving their heartland unprotected.



Its just an elaborate murder-suicide to go "Im fine with enforcing unpopular political changes with military force" and then stage a military invasion of a rival when the new regional power is maybe two days away by boat, with an expeditionary force thats at least 3x what you can deploy, and a history of being created to oppose this sort of thing.

Thats not a survivable strategy for the ruling junta or for Minneapolis. It just gets people killed.
The Shawnee Kingdom got sanctioned into the dirt for a tithe of this.


PS
Note that its Minneapolis. Not Minneapolis-St Paul
Their sister city across the river has no say in any of this, and hasnt since the beginning.
 
If I recall, wasn't there something abut approaching Chad or Nigeria for weapons? It seems like an easy way to avoid stepping on FCNY's toes while avoiding the substantial logistical issues of buying from China or the NCR.
 
If I recall, wasn't there something abut approaching Chad or Nigeria for weapons? It seems like an easy way to avoid stepping on FCNY's toes while avoiding the substantial logistical issues of buying from China or the NCR.
Nah. None of the African nations have been characterized as in a fight with Imperial Russia, just Europe and China.

Our suppliers have to be factions who are....politically motivated to hard opposition with Imperial Russia, as thats the only motivation for them to give us the deals we will need. And have to be wealthy enough to sell at a discount.
That rules out the African nations and South America, leaving the EU, China and PACS

Also California, assuming someone pays them.

Civilian investment from Africa is possible.
Military is unlikely, and would be susceptible to diplomatic pressure interrupting supplies.
And its not like we can afford to buy cash anyway.
 
If I recall, wasn't there something abut approaching Chad or Nigeria for weapons? It seems like an easy way to avoid stepping on FCNY's toes while avoiding the substantial logistical issues of buying from China or the NCR.
Chad was mentioned in the results for last turn's crappy Source Foreign Arms roll. It was selling "a single MiG-29 that it claims to still be in workable condition."
 
They know their diplomatic skill level is below the Competition And the cards are stacked against them because Chicago give them a thumbs down. If every option sucks the high risk high reward gambit starts looking attractive.
 
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They know their diplomatic skill level is below the Competition And the cards are stacked against them because Chicago give them a thumbs down. If every option sucks the high risk high reward gambit starts looking attractive.
Sucks to suck. They have had years to address that. They didnt even try, and even now, arent trying.
They are strategically placed enough that they have bonuses to diplomatic engagement just by dint of being a significant port city on the upper Mississippi. And thats before accounting for their surviving legacy assets, or skilled personnel.

Chicago spent several years with Hostile Neighborhood as a malus, and demonstrated that its not an existential threat.
Even when we had food shortages due to a refugee wave, we didnt go invading our neighbors, even though they were actively price-gouging us.



Even if they lost, what were the stakes?

All the Minneapolis junta had at risk was a loss of political prominence and the ability to dictate their neighbor's choices.
In attempting to conquer their way out of this, they have now managed to turn that potential setback into a literal existential crisis that could destroy Minneapolis as an independent entity and kill a good chunk of its population.

And will definitely kill the junta, because if Chicago punches them out, they have nowhere to run that doesnt require passing through the territory of people they have antagonized.
 
I'm disengaging from this because it feels like we're talking past each other, mon
 
Ron swallows. "I- I wasn't- I..." He looks down at Jack's corpse, lowering the gun. "...I hadn't decided, yet."

The nurse snorts. "Well, then, maybe you can spend a little more time deciding if you're gonna tell anybody it was me or not." He steps closer, getting Ron's face. "Do you think that you can make up for letting him get away with everything by going out killing him once you got what you wanted?"

Ron flinches back, eyes wide.

The nurse shakes his head. "From me, killing the fucker means something. You snap your fingers and thousands of people march. Do something important if you feel guilty." He steps past, towards the door. "Next time, just don't. I don't think you'd be a very good General if you were in prison for murder." He walks into the house.
I think I agree with the Nurse.

Ron "General" Burns had no right to kill Aubrey. No justification.

From the Nurse, it does INDEED mean something. We (as in our country) kept our word, as is good and proper to start to gain a reputation of trustworthiness we REALLY need if we want more people to join us.

If former victims kill their former oppressors, though... that's hardly our fault. That's just karma.

Nikolai kindly stuck his dick into Victoria and proceeded to lose Central Vietnam because the reaction forces he would have used to save it were in Canada. The great powers of the world are now considering how to best support proxies to pressure the Russosphere. And in all the world, with its manifold opportunities, there is only one state going around asking for somebody to help them unmake the foundation of Russian influence for an entire continent.

Your requests have found an audience abruptly rapt with interest.
Well, mostly good news for us! I wonder what offers we'll get.

Bemidji has done some Work with your support. Minneapolis is preparing to invade. You've passed warning along. What do? Options available next turn.
I think we'll have to take part here. At least we're getting some new equipment soon, so I suppose this will work as a good trial run for our future army.

They insist that they're learning valuable lessons from failure. Just once, you wish that somebody would come to you talking about how they're learning such valuable lessons from success.

Nope.
heh. if only.

Perhaps as we get new weapons we send over our older gear to them?
this sounds doable, but we'll see how it goes.

In this particular case, they'd prefer you buy from China, the NCR, etc. The places and people you're approaching form critical parts of their diplomatic, economic, and -- increasingly -- military security, so as you take attention, some amount will turn from them.
well, maaaaaaaaybe we'll be able to make them happy. It all depends on what we're offered, really.

and I imagine we'll fight the coming war together anyway.

Bemidji would probably win even without our intervention. Of course, we could probably nudge things along.
Maybe send a F-16 or two to Minneapolis to escort a passenger plane with diplomats/negotiators, and do a flyover of the city. Even cue up a shipment of weapons on a DC-3 for Bemidji via Duluth, just to make a point.

If things continue to go south, we cut public orders for a division to perform field exercises at Rock Island and help with construction work there for a couple weeks, along with elements of the Navy, along Chicago's northern border until winter falls and large-scale movement of troops becomes non-feasible.

But preferably we can get the Minneapolis junta to back down with diplomacy without having to go that far.
I wonder, could we go at it another way and instead nudge their soldiers to defect? People KNOW that a war with Victoria is coming up in a few years, surely a war between "fellow revivalist countries" would be deeply unpopular among the "common people"?

and Chicago is already known for accepting refugees.

Ah. A Putin Play. Building foreign policy on the presumption of a short victorious war.

They ascribe more pragmatism to us than they should for a polity that chose to keep a Revivalist conference in continuous operation as opposed to moving to dealing with other power players.
Especially after the thing Mary did to the Shawnee Kingdom dude's economy and diplomatic standing.

Thank you for the clarification.
eh, IF they had won first we might very well have had to at least offer some concessions due to having other problems.

But we noticed, so they're fucked. It's just a matter of determining how much and in which way exactly.
 
I wonder, could we go at it another way and instead nudge their soldiers to defect? People KNOW that a war with Victoria is coming up in a few years, surely a war between "fellow revivalist countries" would be deeply unpopular among the "common people"?

and Chicago is already known for accepting refugees.
Given the writeup of the original, and subsequent WoG:
@PoptartProdigy - This is essentially the same proposal as the last one, just replacing Milwaukee with Minneapolis. I didn't get an answer about possibly using Indianapolis or Louiseville, so I assumed that was negative and went with this. It makes a little less sense not being so close to the Commonwealth, but overall I think it still holds up well enough.

Name: State of Minneapolis
Government: Elective Autocracy (Great if you're a citizen, if not, you're shit outta luck)
Territory: Directly administers the city of Miniapolis and it's immediate surroundings, projects hegemony over a much greater if vaguer stretch of land, focused on extracting food and wealth for its still significant population. At it's greatest extent, tax collectors can be seen visiting from Rochester to St. Cloud. These various smaller polities pay tribute for 'protection,' but otherwise are left to their own devices.
Capitol: Minneapolis
Leadership: Mayor Harold Harding, Commander Lucas Benoit (There's a loose balance of power between the civilian government and National Guard, the symbiosis of which has allowed the city to - relatively, of course - prosper despite everything)
History: Minneapolis, unsurprisingly, had it just as rough as all the other major US cities in the Collapse. In order to make ends meet, the city began extorting food from its neighbors with a significant subordinated National Guard contingent, and as the decades have passed, turned this 'temporary measure' into a matter of policy even as the Emergency government was dispanded. There was still Revivalist rhetoric used into both the technically pre-collapse legacy government and NG military, but this has died off in both the leadership and population as the Old Nation's death throes began to cease.

This new Status-Quo was given a good kick to the balls when the infamous General "Hellfire" Burns contacted Commander Benoit in an attempt to gather allies for his Revivalist movement in Chicago, urging the former National Guard officer to declare for the new United States. Initially hesitant - there was even an attempted coup from more radical junior officers when the situation began to leak - Mayor Harold insisting that any disruption to the local strategic play would destabilize the hegemony Minneapolis needed to survive, the intervention of Victorian diplomats, and the Commonwealth's ... confused status as to their actual legitimacy as a successor state all managed to calm everyone down, and with the declaration of war a policy of 'neutrality' was decided on, grumbling in the ranks aside.

After the stunning victories in the Battle of Detroit and Operation Foil, however, there is now a genuine crisis brewing in the State of Minneapolis. Both externally - backing the wrong horse is always a catastrophe in international politics - and an increasingly critical internal situation, as the citizens and soldiers unfurl old American flags all the while their ostensible subjects see a possible third option. Even the diarchy between the Mayorship and National Guard grows strained as Benoit once again hears the call of Patriotism while Harold Harding frantically attempts to keep four decades of careful political navigation from completely unraveling.
Attitude: Alarmed and Embarrassed.
Goals: First and foremost, the mission of Minneapolis will always be to ensure they remain on top of their local hegemony, as their economy, food supply, and security all rely upon keeping the minor cities and towns subservient. They're also facing considerable internal pressure to join in and help restore the Old Country, lest they be left behind as hypocrites and cowards. The ideal scenario for them would be to sign on as 'equal allies' to the New America - with assurances that Chicago will give them total autonomy and the final reunification's date is left appropriately vague. Enough to satisfy the internal populists banging their fists while also not compromising their strategic situation.

***

I'm not sure how well I conveyed this, but the overall theme I went for was the contrast between a powerful democracy's cynical realpolitik and their internal politics, which can be diametrically opposed. In practice, Minneapolis is yet another warlord state, but internally, they are a democracy, and their national mythos based around being a legitimate American government who'd one day save the nation - especially in the military. Now the shot-callers are in a pickle.
Bemidji is, very obviously and by any reasonable metric, the legitimate government, and nobody Minneapolis is not presently threatening with a gun says anything different. What keeps the rest of the state from throwing in with them is the fact that Minneapolis has a lot of guns to point.
They almost had a different coup before.

Its entirely possible that part of the reason of the rush to war is to prevent more reasonable decisions that might cost the current leaders their positions.
Because they officially lay claim to Revivalist positions. As do most of their junior officers.

eh, IF they had won first we might very well have had to at least offer some concessions due to having other problems.
But we noticed, so they're fucked. It's just a matter of determining how much and in which way exactly.
Unlikely.
For one thing, there was very little chance they would have captured the govt, who have fled before.
If they couldnt capture them when they were in Minneapolis, they arent capturing them up north.


Secondly, they'd have had their military out in hostile country for the winter, and their heartland exposed.
We'd have just walked into undefended Minneapolis with the first flush of spring while the roads to Bemidji were still frozen and grabbed most of the senior members of their govt, as well as all their base infrastructure.

Even worse was the possibility we could have taken Minneapolis in winter with a couple battalions of light infantry.

There are five airports in and around Minneapolis.
One C-130 will move a hundred light infantry at a time, and its maybe an hours flight to Chicago. 1 hour to, 1 hour back, 1 hour to load and unload troops. Four of them would shuttle in 1200 troops in 9 hours.

This isnt the 19th century anymore.


Third, the principle being set would have forced us to go in hard anyway.
Else it would set a precedent of people trying to present us with fait accompli despite having an idea of our feelings beforehand.
Which would cost us more.

EDIT
But that said, doesnt matter. We caught them beforehand.
And like you said, they are fucked.
Or at least the government is. Especially because they are making us fuck with our schedule.
 
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