I'm talking high ranked administrators who perpetuated Victorian oppression and soldiers who directly committed war crimes such as taking war brides.
That is not what you wrote, even if it is what you meant.

Anyway, of all the things that I might sell my moral high ground for, desecration of graves seems a super low return option. This is a very bad idea.
 
I'm talking high ranked administrators who perpetuated Victorian oppression and soldiers who directly committed war crimes such as taking war brides.
You should likely be more careful with your words then, because specificity in your horrible war crimes is not something that's come across. "Victorian soldiers that committed war crimes" is still a really big group of people, and that's before you take into account that there's still at least one more war for Vick soldiers to do quintessential Vick things like commit war crimes in.
 
Is it desecrating a grave if we made it a museum that talked shit? I don't know if Germany has something like a holocaust museum but we could do something like that in the general area
 
Destroying the graves is such a waste. Just use them to lure out retroculturalist "tourists" then *BAM* arrest all of them!

Also, we can hook them up to a generator, since they'll be spinning in their graves once the "Cultural Marxists" defeat Victoria once and for all.
 
Information: Reminder to not become what you fight
reminder to not become what you fight
So one thing I want to do that's both petty and cathartic is in the event we do invade Victoria is desecrate the corpses, Kraft, Rumford, and anyone who served in a political or military position should have their corpse exhumed, incinerated and tossed into the sea; traitors to America don't deserve to be buried on American soil.
I see that a number of people have already addressed this, but let me make this official:
Please do not indulge in Revenge fantasies, or similar behavior that includes advocating for excessive or cruel behavior against groups for the sake of emotional pleasure. Whether the groups we are talking about are real or fictional, deserving or undeserving, we do not wish to endorse any sort of behavior that is ready to devalue or dehumanize entire groups.

Please keep in mind the advice of your GM, also to be found on the banner at the bottom of the page just above the reply box - Do not become what you fight.
 
That sounds all well and good, but what do you plan to do with wherever Rumford and Kraft are buried? Because do you really want to lay in state the men who betrayed America and committed far worse atrocities? At the very least how about we just pave over them so that no potential ex-Victorians can make shrines to them.

if you want to get rid of the bodies,just cremate them into ashes and throw the ashes away

no need to make a public show out of it
 
*returns*

*blink*

Thank you for swinging by, Algalon.

Just a heads-up folks: while work continues to be turmoil, I've obtained certification to go into a related field. Should hopefully have things settled down better in the near future to return!
 
So on a less fucked up note, would building a museum to the victims of retro culture instead of that other thing be a good idea
 
Rule 5: Don’t Make it Harder For Us to Do Our Jobs, or, "You've already been warned not to participate in behavior like this by another moderator. Refrain from doing this in the future."
Agreed, lets make it nice a ultra modern design while we're at it
Fair enough, but we do it like the Holocaust Museums, my main purpose for suggesting that we destroy Victorian gravesites was to deny potential former Victorians any sort of lost cause symbols they can rally around.
 
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Since everyone is so angry I retract my suggestion, all I ever w

Fair enough, but we do it like the Holocaust Museums, my main purpose for suggesting that we destroy Victorian gravesites was to deny potential former Victorians any sort of lost cause symbols they can rally around.
Make the gravesite a museum then, rallying around that is a good look for nobody.
 
Lore from Discord:

Question-
Do we have any idea, IC or OOC, of what the official and unofficial relations between FCNY and the NCR is like? Economic involvement? Under the table military contacts? How the resident populations regard each other? Whether there were implicit understandings of retribution if Victoria should accidentally Long Island?

Answer from Poptart-
It's complicated.
Always remember that to everybody in the Rockies or West of them, California is their Victoria.
Not retroculture, no, not so determinedly vile and evil, no, but they are on Russia's speed dial for who swings by if you get too successful. As far as the locals are concerned, Cali's only distinction is that they have the decency to shout a warning first.
This reputation fades somewhat as you cross the Rockies, but it's still there. By the time you hit FCNY, you largely have people torn between admiration for the NCR's ability to survive in the face of the Collapse and contempt for one of the arch-collaborators.
Because everybody on the continent collaborates, to one degree or another, but there's a special hatred for those who collaborate their way to the top.
That said, the NCR is the most successful successor state that isn't wholly and wildly evil. There's some admiration, and some begrudging recognition of common interests. FCNY has a surplus of money and little to invest it in at home; the NCR has a vast territory they are impoverished into being incapable of fully caring for. Thus, there are FCNY investors hard at work in the NCR, which Alexander is minded to tolerate.
The NCR isn't able to invest back, but they don't mind rich foreigners making profits off their investments, so it benefits both parties to at least some extent. They are rigorous with regulation, though; with Russia, they've had enough of being exploited, and can't really afford more of it.
Their populace is more positive towards the FCNY than the reverse, but there is a fair amount of resentment for the obvious contempt some New Yorkers obviously hold the Republic in. The public perception in the NCR is that nobody really understands what they have to go through. They say that they are unfairly demonized; those who have to deal with their attentions, and those who hear of that, call that a victim complex.
Official relations are decent enough to permit the investment, but the two states have no obligations to one another, or real coinciding interests outside of that investment. Their ability to coordinate is rather sharply limited by the Russosphere's willingness to abet that, given their control of the Pacific Ocean and the Panama Canal; there's no real point to try and deepen ties when they have little to offer each other and much wrath to bring upon themselves if they make the attempt.
You have no information on under the table military arrangements or implicit understandings.
 
That's gonna be a hard road, especially if a lot of the same people who are in charge in California now are still in charge after the revolution.

It's like, if Blackwell denounced Russia and somehow managed to throw out all the Russian advisors in a massive self-coup, but otherwise didn't change the way Victorian internal governance works... We wouldn't trust him, would we?
 
That's gonna be a hard road, especially if a lot of the same people who are in charge in California now are still in charge after the revolution.

It's like, if Blackwell denounced Russia and somehow managed to throw out all the Russian advisors in a massive self-coup, but otherwise didn't change the way Victorian internal governance works... We wouldn't trust him, would we?
Well Blackwell is still a true believer, the NCR is fully opposed to Russia on both the political and ideological level, plus they'll probably have a lot more material goods freed up that they can pass around to ease tension.
 
So realistically, what could the Czar bring to bear against a rebelling NCR? Victoria is in shambles, and anything he sends to them would have to get through the CFC, but what about anything else he might have on the continent, or even try to convince the Japanese to lend a hand on the grounds that the NCR might try to claim nearby territory.
 
So realistically, what could the Czar bring to bear against a rebelling NCR?
In the current state of affairs, with a resurgent Europe and China sizing his empire for weaknesses? Very little, though with his hangups over America he might try nonetheless.
Victoria is in shambles, and anything he sends to them would have to get through the CFC
What do you mean, 'get through us'? We have practically no airforce left, so we can't stop cargo flights from going over the continent to Victoria. Or, you know, any cargo ship from going across the Atlantic, which Victoria has a coast on, and we don't, let alone any semblance of a navy for open ocean to enforce an embargo.
but what about anything else he might have on the continent, or even try to convince the Japanese to lend a hand on the grounds that the NCR might try to claim nearby territory.
What the Czar has on the continent are NCR and Victoria. One's in a civil war, and the other is declaring independence in this scenario. The only other asset on the continent is the client state that gives him control of the Panama canal, and it is kept rather occupied by that.

And if the NCR seriously decided to annex Cascadia, there is sweet F.A that Japan could do about it, now that China's making a comeback. Seriously, a local insurgency with smuggled in weapons nearly kicked them off the North American continent, a professional military would sweep them out to the sea, let alone playing defense against them.
 
In the current state of affairs, with a resurgent Europe and China sizing his empire for weaknesses? Very little, though with his hangups over America he might try nonetheless.

What do you mean, 'get through us'? We have practically no airforce left, so we can't stop cargo flights from going over the continent to Victoria. Or, you know, any cargo ship from going across the Atlantic, which Victoria has a coast on, and we don't, let alone any semblance of a navy for open ocean to enforce an embargo.
I'm talking about using the Victorians to once again try to catch the NCR between a land war and a naval blockade, even if we don't have an air force, what about all that anti-air stuff we had? Plus potentially using it as grounds to reignite another war with Victoria.
 
So realistically, what could the Czar bring to bear against a rebelling NCR?
Realistically?

Economic sanctions. Black ops.
Alexander's biggest successes have been destabilizing his geopolitical opposition, not military force; its both more fiscally responsible, and avoids body bags coming home and causing awkward questions. And he's still doing it. See France.

Thing is, the NCR also knows this. And has been preparing for it.Question is whether they are prepared enough.

And the Russosphere itself is not immune from economic backlash either, given that they are explicitly exploiting California with unequal trade deals and the like. The NCR rebelling is going to have non-trivial economic effects on the Russosphere and the Russian budget.
Victoria is in shambles, and anything he sends to them would have to get through the CFC,
Nothing he sends to Cali has to pass through the CFC.
Imperial Russia has air and sea bases in Alaska and the Canadian Far North.
And Vladivostok is a major Russian city and sea port on the other side of the Pacific. They do not need to go through the CFC to get to Cali.

Not that we could do dickall if they were overflying our airspace anyway. At least, not yet.
but what about anything else he might have on the continent,
He has no significant deployable military forces on the continent. Airbasing and seabasing sure, but no landforces. Thats what the Vics were for.
And its in doubt whether he has the logistics to spare anyway to support that sort of operation.

or even try to convince the Japanese to lend a hand on the grounds that the NCR might try to claim nearby territory.
Japan is already in strategic overreach.

I'd be hardpressed to see what they could bring to this affair if the NCR goes rogue; they're already overstretched with raging insurgencies in the occupied Phillippines and South Korea, and a distinctly irate China steadily massing on the other side of the Sea of Japan. They almost got kicked out of Cascadia by an indigenous uprising with no overt foreign support about a decade ago.

Russia had to offer basing rights in Alaska and twist California's arm to allow the Japanese stage through NCR territory to get it back.

They've repeatedly gotten their operations in Cascadia fucked over by insurgents; a Tier One NCR special forces group turned loose in Cascadia overtly or covertly, coupled with a flow of arms to the rebels would make Iranian support for Iraqi insurgents during the War on Terror look like a dress rehearsal for a birthday party. They certainly dont want to bring their fleet within 500 nautical miles of a shoreline that hosts F-35s armed with LRASMs.

Nevermind the implications of Cali's Schrodinger nuclear status.

I mean, sure, they could try a blockade. But any surface ships close enough to be relevant is in range of massed cruise missile strikes.
And any submarines trying unrestricted submarine warfare....well, its not the Collapse any more. Sinking Chinese-flagged or African Union-flagged or European Union-flagged merchant ships, let alone ships with a military escort, might have.....Consequences.
 
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Well Blackwell is still a true believer, the NCR is fully opposed to Russia on both the political and ideological level...
People whose homes have been burned down, or whose community leaders have been killed, by NCR troops aren't going to start trusting the NCR because they proclaim a new anti-Russian ideology after decades of doing Russia's bidding.
 
That's gonna be a hard road, especially if a lot of the same people who are in charge in California now are still in charge after the revolution.

It's like, if Blackwell denounced Russia and somehow managed to throw out all the Russian advisors in a massive self-coup, but otherwise didn't change the way Victorian internal governance works... We wouldn't trust him, would we?

The NCR did not commit Maximum War Crimes above and beyond what Russia required them to do. They're still collaborators, but they aren't the Very Special Collaborators of Victoria.

Victoria chose to serve Russia. The NCR fought a brief war with Russia before they were reduced to the status of a satrap nation. Now, they're still enforcing the Tsar's will, and this does not make them beloved among their neighbors, but they aren't going around trying to spread Retroculture or telling everyone that the Tsar is the most glorious and Christian of monarchs.

I mean, sure, they could try a blockade. But any surface ships close enough to be relevant is in range of massed cruise missile strikes.
And any submarines trying unrestricted submarine warfare....well, its not the Collapse any more. Sinking Chinese-flagged or African Union-flagged or European Union-flagged merchant ships, let alone ships with a military escort, might have.....Consequences.

They could manage a blockade without bringing surface ships into missile range. Just have a network of patrolling ships with helicopters, use radar to pick up inbound merchants while they're still far away, and politely inform them that going to California is not permitted at this time.

With a decent network of spies, they could also catch outgoing merchants. If you have a man at the docks who notes down the names and descriptions of merchant ships, then you can seize the merchant ships after they leave and impound their cargo. This would seriously discourage people who want to trade with California.

People whose homes have been burned down, or whose community leaders have been killed, by NCR troops aren't going to start trusting the NCR because they proclaim a new anti-Russian ideology after decades of doing Russia's bidding.

I get the impression that the NCR has been very much not-Victoria in terms of their attitude towards collateral damage. They won't be popular, but it appears that they do go out of their way to avoid burning homes or killing community leaders. The NCR has been not-so-quietly plotting to turn against their Russian masters from the start, after all; pointless brutality towards their fellow Americans would only serve to make that rebellion more difficult.

Which is not to say that there aren't a lot of people with very good reasons to hate and despise the NCR. But it is entirely possible to have an alliance of "we hate the NCR, but we hate the Russians more". In Japanese-controlled territory, where the NCR hasn't been serving as the enforcer, people may welcome their fellow Americans with flags and flowers.

I generally agree that the NCR's reputation is not going to recover quickly, or quite possibly at all. But their collaboration has left them in an excellent position to stage a successful rebellion.
 
But their collaboration has left them in an excellent position to stage a successful rebellion.
Short term diplomatic hatred for long term unification is the goal, and that goal is very much the plan.

Remember, the NCR helped us and sabotaged the Vicks, you don't think when the ball drops and they start the rebellion they won't mention that...that's PR they need.

But either way the NCR is...likely a lesser Evil, and like you said, you were likely going to be roughed up not utterly annihilated.
 
They could manage a blockade without bringing surface ships into missile range. Just have a network of patrolling ships with helicopters, use radar to pick up inbound merchants while they're still far away, and politely inform them that going to California is not permitted at this time.
Helicopters generally dont carry radar for one thing; they generally dont have the payload capacity, or the altitude envelope.
And they have limited speed and endurance in any sort of sea search role.

For another, radar can be detected at several times the range at which it will help you detect anything.
Its a bit like shining a flashlight on a dark night; people can see you from much farther away than you can see them. That's why emissions control is an established naval strategy.

The Japanese can operate UAVs and maritime patrol aircraft from Hawaii as search, but a blockade requires actual surface ships in the water for search and seizure purposes.
Because its not the Collapse anymore, and shooting flagged civilian ships of foreign powers carries consequences.

With a decent network of spies, they could also catch outgoing merchants. If you have a man at the docks who notes down the names and descriptions of merchant ships, then you can seize the merchant ships after they leave and impound their cargo. This would seriously discourage people who want to trade with California.
Lemme try to talk about the military picture as I see it, and why its a prohibitive strategic problem given the assets on hand.
Cali's arsenal is derived from early 21st century US military stock, so I'll be using known figures.

The current longrange antishipping weapon of the US Navy air arm is the AGM-158C LRASM subsonic stealth cruise missile, which started development in 2009 and entered full service in 2018. It weighs roughly two thousand pounds, carries a thousand pound warhead, has a passive IR seeker, can home on hostile RF emissions, has an estimated range of >500km, and can be carried by the F-35, the F/A-18, and the P-8 Poseidon long range maritime patrol aircraft.

We know the NCR operates upgraded F-35s by WoG.
Publicly available information says that the F-35A has a combat radius of ~1200km on internal fuel alone; no external fuel tanks, no tanker support.
Range with external fuel tanks is unknown or upgraded engines.

The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet has a combat radius of 1100km while carrying 2x Sidewinders, 2x AMRAAMs, 2x 2000-pound class bombs and a single centerline drop tank(480 gallon, I believe).
That goes up to 1300km if they use conformal fuel tanks.

The P-8 Poseidon is basically a militarized 737-800ERX with surface search radar.
It has a combat radius of 2200km, time on station of 4 hours, 5x internal weapon bays, and 6x external hard points for weapons or other stuff.

Thats the OPFOR any Japanese admiral would have to worry about if he/she was tasked to blockade NCR ports.
Not counting any of the more clever US military innovations like CLEAVER cruise missile pods deployed from cargo aircraft. Or Loyal Wingman-style drones with strike packages of their own.

That adds up to a minimum of a 1700km radius of death from an NCR port like San Diego using just the F-35s with no tankers.
That goes up to >2700km should they use P-8s or similar aircraft in the antishipping role.
The minimum survivable surface action group in such a situation just gets bigger and bigger. And requires multiple carriers.

Any single, or small group of blockading IJN surface ships in the area will simply die the moment the Japanese govt declares a blockade.
And its going to be faster to build replacement aircraft than to build replacement long range frigates/destroyers/cruisers.

Note that Im assuming Cali has no submarines either.
Or armed underwater USVs.
Because that vastly complicates the tactical picture further.

EDIT
Also, it goes without saying that in such a situation they just lost access to every military installation on the west coast of North America.
And every economic investment in the same area.
 
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uju32 discusses the many, many ways that the NCR could attack blockading ships.

This is true. The counterpoint is that Russia managed to blockade the NCR during the last war; that was in fact how they won the last war.

This time, Russia has to worry about the EU and a resurgent China, so it might not be worth it to fight the NCR. But Alexander is irrational on the subject of America, and if he decides to go all-out to crush the most powerful American successor state, he might be able to succeed.

California has a lot of assets that would make a blockade difficult, and I agree that the Japanese are not the ones we should be worried about. But if Russia decides to double down- as Alexander is fond of doing- they might be able to blockade the NCR again.
 
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