What should your focus for the rest of the Quest be?


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319.M42 - A Dream
[Since this turned out to be a massive issue for some: THE STAR CHILD IS A BIASED AND UNRELIABLE NARRATOR. TAKE THEIR WORDS WITH A SPOON OF SALT.]

The Aries-Secundus Class refit of the original Aries designed a mere two centuries ago awakens to the world in its womb of steel and machinery, thousands laboring for years and years to create the ship to specifications given unto them by strangely intense engineers and officials. Month by month, the super-structure of the vessel begins to grow before its innards slowly unwind around and within itself, hallways and fluid systems installed alongside machinery and crew quarters, the bridge fitting snugly within as Engineseers consecrate the Enginarium with holy oils and blessed incense. Yet, the weapons fitted into the ship are...strange, to say the least. Their machinery arcane for even the Glimmering Federations most learned, their effects terrible and outlandish, and yet devastating and terrible to behold upon the practice targets it fires against.

And when the ship leaves its berth, it is like a dream has been ripped from those responsible for setting the whole thing in motion, the meanings of beautiful configurations and arcane drawings slipping from minds no longer able to hold the touch of their Divine, a ship and a blueprint for the Aries-Secundus the only thing that tells that reality was wrought, and no mere dream had, even as none would ever be able to divine the ways the Chainbreaker and Lover's Dance use to enact their fury against the foes of the Star Child.

And like a dream, so too wake those assembled by the order of Teeln, Prophet of the Star Child, to discuss a matter of Faith close to home, and of grave importance for the Age to come. And those assembled closely match the topic at hand, as where before the large hall had been filled with priests of flesh and souls and ordinary folk, now there was a mass of mystics and seers, engineers and machinist, those who tended to the spirit of technology and the motion inherent in all things but within that of machinery first.

Some had argued that no aid was to be given, but unknown technology taken, while others denied both. Many spoke of 'proof' and 'worthiness' when the topic of raising the Xenos occurred, with those splintered heavily between every metric and view of such 'worthiness' to be found. Others merely sought to raise those who stood side by side in combat and faith while letting all others languish, while the same numbers were in favor of taking technology until the Xenos could but inhabit a single world and relied utterly on the Federation to travel and colonize.

And yet, of all the multitudes of faithful assembled here, none were spared of a vision by the Star Child as they had tried to figure out when, or if at all, Xenos should be raised to the technological level of the Federation and when the technology they themselves didn't possess should be taken or traded for.

It was a dream that left eyes stinging with tears, throats hurting from raging shouts, and limbs weak at the devastation wrought against humanity through foes innumerable and malevolent beyond knowing.

A dream that showed the millennia where humanity stood as equals amongst a galactic federation with thousands of Xenos species...or so they thought, for it was only the military might that humankind possessed that gave them such unprecedented peace amongst the stars.

A dream where unshackled Abominable Intelligences shattered the dream of an eternal utopia, and the veil presented by half of the Xenos found, for they sunk their blades into our backs at the first opportunity.

A dream that showed butchery beyond measure enacted by those deemed treasured friends and allies, leaving us to stand side-by-side to the bitter end with those once deemed unreliable or incompatible with our thoughts.

A dream that angrily demanded all within the hall to listen and see what C̴̪̞͙̘͙̣̝̩͐͆̀͒̏̿̒́̂͜h̴̜̟̥̦̝̘̀̑̆̑͝ȃ̴̯̦̩̭͔͓̜̪̟͂̑͊̓̒̕o̷̫̩̊͒͐͆̊s̷̡̼̦͖̥̦̫̙̆͗̓̇͗̓̐͜͝ had wrought, corrupting those who stood and those who fought alike, muddling the lines and leaving paranoia to fester and whisper.

A dream that lamented.
A dream that demanded.
A dream that drew a line.

There would be no blind trust.
There would be no blind hatred.

There was only the future to be created, and those either lifted alongside, or left behind as nothing more than names within history.

So spoke the Star Child.
So spoke our Divine Not Yet Born.

And when the assembled preachers and practitioners of the faith's practical aspects awoke, there was only one thought on the mind of them all:

How do we write this down?
(6-Hour Moratorium)
[] (Write-In Xeno Uplift Doctrine)
 
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Hmm, so the Faith Bonus here was context. So we can make a fully informed decision based on the canon of this version of 40K . Very good information.

And yeah, the message here is "It wasn't as bad as the propaganda claims it was, but there were a lot of alien powers that straight up happily backstabbed us in a moment of weakness, and once that started happening, it became very easy for the Enemy to exploit and turn it into the norm through that mutual distrust"
 
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...so how about one Faith action, one Psykana, and one smaller Ship Design? Spread the bonus around.
At least one of the actions should be the Karnivore Sanctification.

Edit:
Shit didn't I post this? Does my post button not work sometimes? Or does previously magically reappear? I just scrolled down to type something else and found this waiting in my comment box.

Anyway: Trust but Verify should be this votes motto/mandate I say.
 
Basically the doctrine should be trust but verify. There are those worthy of trust. There are those that should not be trusted. Different factions within different species exists. Chaos is ever present but should not deter us from reaching out to others- but that reaching out should be measured in turn.
 
Some had argued that no aid was to be given, but unknown technology taken, while others denied both.
Others merely sought to raise those who stood side by side in combat and faith while letting all others languish, while the same numbers were in favor of taking technology until the Xenos could but inhabit a single world and relied utterly on the Federation to travel and colonize.
Xenos should be raised to the technological level of the Federation and when the technology they themselves didn't possess should be taken or traded for.
I'm gonna ignore the "giving" aspect of the uplift doctrine for now and focus on the parts of gaining tech from xenos by trade, theft or fighting for it.

We already took notes from our vassal on ship construction so "taking notes" should be fine

And theirs a difference between attacking someone to steal tech or espionage compared to the archeology, as technically STCs are just the relics of humanity's golden age. So if there's ancient alien tech we should just take it for study, it's not grave robbing, trust.

any other ideas on how to gain tech with the uplift doctrine?
 
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So to think about it, we need to understand the xeno's culture, practices, and faith if we are to see if they are worthy of the uplift into friends and Allie's, and if not worshippers of the star child.

Those who cannot be taught to be better, who cannot be changed from their path, who will not heed warnings or any other way but choose the path of ruin…then there can be no peace.

It's a unfortunate truth of things, but to preserve the federation and the truth and meaning we have we have to take each case with great care and with eyes open for deception or hidden knives.

Maybe we can confine them to their worlds, if they prove that they are not to be destroyed entirely to begin again, but if not…then yeah…

Otherwise like our shipbuilding, wandering friendly xeno's who we can actually trust, we can begin the slow and steady process teaching them…and perhaps shape their culture bit by bit to be more akin to ours to fight against the true evil within the galaxy gone mad.
 
A dream that showed the millennia where humanity stood as equals amongst a galactic federation with thousands of Xenos species...or so they thought, for it was only the military might that humankind possessed that gave them such unprecedented peace amongst the stars.

A dream where unshackled Abominable Intelligences shattered the dream of an eternal utopia, and the veil presented by half of the Xenos found, for they sunk their blades into our backs at the first opportunity.

A dream that showed butchery beyond measure enacted by those deemed treasured friends and allies, leaving us to stand side-by-side to the bitter end with those once deemed unreliable or incompatible with our thoughts.

I don't trust this vision. Most of this stuff seems off and repeating Imperium proganada. I am pretty sure the idea that humanity was ever united as a Federation is bogus and the idea that xenos betrayed humanity is a point the Imperium likes to bitch to justify their genocides.
 
At least one of the actions should be the Karnivore Sanctification.

Edit:
Shit didn't I post this? Does my post button not work sometimes? Or does previously magically reappear? I just scrolled down to type something else and found this waiting in my comment box.

Anyway: Trust but Verify should be this votes motto/mandate I say.
Search isn't showing it for me. So probably just didn't post it.
 
I don't trust this vision. Most of this stuff seems off and repeating Imperium proganada. I am pretty sure the idea that humanity was ever united as a Federation is bogus and the idea that xenos betrayed humanity is a point the Imperium likes to bitch to justify their genocides.

It was info from the equivalent of a nat 100, and the story it tells makes sense. I'll elaborate when I get back to my keyboard
 
Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive
I don't trust this vision. Most of this stuff seems off and repeating Imperium proganada. I am pretty sure the idea that humanity was ever united as a Federation is bogus and the idea that xenos betrayed humanity is a point the Imperium likes to bitch to justify their genocides.
Nah, that's just the author uncritically propagating fascist apologia in this quest, yet again. Since it's become a clear pattern at this point, I'm out.
 
Correct me if I'm utterly wrong, but the Star Child is the reincarnation of the Emperor after he dies, right?

I have no idea how much of my knowledge of WH40K is fanon and what isn't, but this vision seems pretty in line with what's known about the Emperor's views/opinions.

Though perhaps somewhat more enlightened?
 
I don't trust this vision. Most of this stuff seems off and repeating Imperium proganada. I am pretty sure the idea that humanity was ever united as a Federation is bogus and the idea that xenos betrayed humanity is a point the Imperium likes to bitch to justify their genocides.

Just because something is propaganda doesn't mean it isn't based in truth. As xenophobic as Humans can be, we are also equally capable of bonding (at least from our side of the equation) with just about anything, even organisms with the most alien of appearances or mindset.

For fear and hatred of the alien to become so universal through so much of the remnants of the DAOT civilization, something had to have happened to give generational trauma to vast numbers of human civilizations, and betrayal on-mass by large numbers of formerly allied alien civilizations when everything goes to shit makes as much sense as anything else.

When the going gets rough, people generally seek to preserve their ingroup over any outgroups, even those they might have been nominally friendly with. And that goes the same for humans-I have no doubt there were remnant human civilizations who turned on nominally friendly alien neighbors for resources during the depths of the Age of Strife.

Anyway, regarding the actual update, my suggestion would be something along the line of 'approach aliens with good intentions, but do not lower your guard. If they will treat with you, treat with them. If they will listen to you, speak with them, and listen in turn. If they wish to be left alone, oblige them.'

I'll think more on it.

Edit: also, for y'all complaining about this, did you miss the part where it said only about half of the aliens allied with Humanity backstabbed them during the Cybernetic Revolts and the Age of Strife? And that many of the ones who stood alongside us were the ones who had a mindset which differed radically from that of humanity? IE the most alien of the aliens? How is this fascist apologia?
 
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Okay, to clarify. The point here isn't "Aliens are fundamentally mistrusted." The point here is "The Old Federation had a monopoly of power, and was naive enough to think everyone would want to be their friend, and they thought that providing benefits would be enough to keep that going." What happened here was that the Federation eventually stopped being able to provide benefits. Not Every alien chose to backstab them--but a statistically significant number did (It didn't even need to be the majority! Even, maybe, 10% deciding to go "Oh, you're not able to maintain a monopoly of force over me anymore? Great! I'll just take what I want with violence now." would be enough to start this cycle).

What happened Then was that the idea that "Aliens can't be trusted" became something that wasn't unthinkable, and Chaos proceeded to take advantage of that opening to fan the flames of distrust, nudge the humans to reacting with greater violence, which scared the loyalists into thinking they might be next, and then nudging those loyalists to take actions to protect themselves, which then would get noted and taken as "Proof" that they were getting ready to betray, driving the humans into greater fanaticism against it, until you get the modern state of affairs.

This isn't to say "All the Aliens universally got evil grins on their face and pulled out knives". This is saying "In a room full of a hundred guys, even one deciding to whip out a knife and start stabbing when they found out there was no consequences and potentially huge gains for it can start a vicious cycle, especially when there's judges that can't be detected or seen who are rewarding the ones who jam the Betray button far beyond the normal results of the Prisoner's Dilemma"

The point here--and the lesson so to speak--is that you can't expect a relationship built on benefits to last beyond those benefits. You need to have something real to forge a true friendship. Just the same, rejecting the entire idea of the Out-Group is exactly what Chaos wants, so that's not a viable option either.
 
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Okay, to clarify. The point here isn't "Aliens are fundamentally mistrusted." The point here is "The Old Federation had a monopoly of power, and was naive enough to think everyone would want to be their friend, and they thought that providing benefits would be enough to keep that going." What happened here was that the Federation eventually stopped being able to provide benefits. Not Every alien chose to backstab them--but a statistically significant number did (It didn't even need to be the majority! Even, maybe, 10% deciding to go "Oh, you're not able to maintain a monopoly of force over me anymore? Great! I'll just take what I want with violence now." would be enough to start this cycle).

What happened Then was that the idea that "Aliens can't be trusted" became something that wasn't unthinkable, and Chaos proceeded to take advantage of that opening to fan the flames of distrust, nudge the humans to reacting with greater violence, which scared the loyalists into thinking they might be next, and then nudging those loyalists to take actions to protect themselves, which then would get noted and taken as "Proof" that they were getting ready to betray, driving the humans into greater fanaticism against it, until you get the modern state of affairs.

This isn't to say "All the Aliens universally got evil grins on their face and pulled out knives". This is saying "In a room full of a hundred guys, even one deciding to whip out a knife and start stabbing when they found out there was no consequences and potentially huge gains for it can start a vicious cycle, especially when there's judges that can't be detected or seen who are rewarding the ones who jam the Betray button far beyond the normal results of the Prisoner's Dilemma"

I honestly think that this entire discussion and vision kinda ignores the giant, Chaos-coded elephant in the room to instead focus on the wrongs of "Xenos" and "Abominable Intelligences." Like, in this case isn't it pretty much confirmed that everything falling apart had less to do with humanity, or any "Xenos" species besides the Eldar, and a lot more to do with, "Man, the rise of an entire Chaos God fucks things up."
 
Honestly, I think I might just drop this quest. I don't really need explanations for this. The idea that humanity was ever united as a "Federation" is based on fanon but I am not the author. My main sticking point is the idea that many of humanity's alien allies chose to betray them for "reasons" is too much for me to believe. I always considered it to be bullshit and and its sad that the author chose that route.
 
I honestly think that this entire discussion and vision kinda ignores the giant, Chaos-coded elephant in the room to instead focus on the wrongs of "Xenos" and "Abominable Intelligences." Like, in this case isn't it pretty much confirmed that everything falling apart had less to do with humanity, or any "Xenos" species besides the Eldar, and a lot more to do with, "Man, the rise of an entire Chaos God fucks things up."

That's exactly what I said though?

"One bad actor creates precedent, which then Chaos leans on hard to encourage mutual infighting, which then starts snowballing at the people who betray first end up benefitting from it while the ones who don't are the ones who get backstabbed, and then you've got the modern Galaxy where everyone hates everyone and trust is dead."

Chaos Wants everyone to hate each other and not trust each other, because they thrive in negative emotions, and few are more universal than Fear of the Other.

The assumption that "There are evil gods, Evil Gods explicitly had a hand in stirring the pot by this very presentation which we can have as confirmation that "Yes, this is--in fact--the closest thing to Actual History as exists--but the fact they succeeded at this means the author is pushing Fascist Apologetica and must be shunned" seems... Uh...

Look, I get the feeling that people are too busy to judge here. But acting like "Evil Gods that explicitly have an interest in seeing everyone at each other's throats did nothing to anyone but humanity during an age where their power waxed to the point where it's never since been matched" seems a bit uhhhhhh.
 
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That's exactly what I said though?

"One bad actor creates precedent, which then Chaos leans on hard to encourage mutual infighting, which then starts snowballing at the people who betray first end up benefitting from it while the ones who don't are the ones who get backstabbed, and then you've got the modern Galaxy where everyone hates everyone and trust is dead."

Chaos Wants everyone to hate each other and not trust each other, because they thrive in negative emotions, and few are more universal than Fear of the Other.

The assumption that "There are evil gods, Evil Gods explicitly had a hand in stirring the pot--but the fact they succeeded at this means the author is pushing Fascist Apologetica and must be shunned" seems... Uh...

No, I mean the fact is that the primary reason everything fell apart was the birth of Slaneesh. Like, that's the actual major thing that was happening at the same time that everything fell apart unless you count vague things like, "All/most/many the Xenos turned on us for Reasons" and "Abominable Intelligences acted in a very specific way that therefore justify our specific beliefs about technology" which come off as a lot more coping than anything else.

E: It's absolutely a baffling missing piece of the story, the devastation caused by the birth of a Dark God of Excess and Self-Destruction/Self-Destructive Pleasure/etc.
 
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No, I mean the fact is that the primary reason everything fell apart was the birth of Slaneesh. Like, that's the actual major thing that was happening at the same time that everything fell apart unless you count vague things like, "All/most/many the Xenos turned on us for Reasons" and "Abominable Intelligences acted in a very specific way that therefore justify our specific beliefs about technology" which come off as a lot more coping than anything else.

Are we disagreeing with each other or agreeing? I'm trying to figure this out. Like, as best as I can tell, the issue I'm seeing here very much is "Most of these things wouldn't be huge issues--if it wasn't for a bunch of evil gods who take any opening they could get to make a minor misstep into an unprecedented tragedy--and this period of time was one where they have been stronger than they have been since". Even the AI thing is mostly "You're creating a vacuum and it gets filled with evil memes by the Dark Gods thing, when normally it would either stabilize itself over time or just fail to come into being."
 
I don't trust this vision. Most of this stuff seems off and repeating Imperium proganada. I am pretty sure the idea that humanity was ever united as a Federation is bogus and the idea that xenos betrayed humanity is a point the Imperium likes to bitch to justify their genocides.

I trust it, as Humanity at the very least had a Confederation in place.

And while I'm sure Humanity had its fair share of backstabbing and provoking different species of xenos, who's to say that we weren't on the receiving end of those kinds of betrayals from other Xenos? We already know some species (like the Laer) are mostly corrupted by Chaos nearly wholly and probably wouldn't think twice about trying to kill us to please their masters.

Nah, that's just the author uncritically propagating fascist apologia in this quest, yet again. Since it's become a clear pattern at this point, I'm out.

I haven't really seen much of that here. Hero's been open about how fucked the Imperium is, nor have we had any serious "Imperium Good!" themes here either, given the main idea of this quest has been "Make a better polity than the Imperium......but also make sure not to die too".
 
Are we disagreeing with each other or agreeing? I'm trying to figure this out. Like, as best as I can tell, the issue I'm seeing here very much is "Most of these things wouldn't be huge issues--if it wasn't for a bunch of evil gods who take any opening they could get to make a minor misstep into an unprecedented tragedy--and this period of time was one where they have been stronger than they have been since". Even the AI thing is mostly "You're creating a vacuum and it gets filled with evil memes by the Dark Gods thing, when normally it would either stabilize itself over time or just fail to come into being."

It's that we, in annoying fashion, got the TRUE STORY as according to the QM and it managed to mostly talk about all the things the (non-Eldar) Xenos did wrong and Abominable Intelligences.

It's like telling a story of the extinction of the dinosaurs and mumbling about feeding patterns without mentioning the giant meteor in the room and then declaring that it's the definitive account.
 
It's that we, in annoying fashion, got the TRUE STORY as according to the QM and it managed to mostly talk about all the things the (non-Eldar) Xenos did wrong and Abominable Intelligences.

It's like telling a story of the extinction of the dinosaurs and mumbling about feeding patterns without mentioning the giant meteor in the room and then declaring that it's the definitive account.

I mean, the Giant Meteor is sort of part of the premise? The Age of Strife was literally started by "Chaos is hypercharged by the pending manifestation of Slaanesh and Daemons can literally just waltz over the Veil whenever they want to ruin shit." It's like saying "The Dinosaurs died because after the meteor fell, there was a lack of sunlight and the temperature went down, and they were too poorly equipped to survive a relatively low energy environment given how huge they tended to be." Yes, it's correct, but the Root Cause is part of the premise, while the Consequences are what people most clearly see.
 
Honestly, I think I might just drop this quest. I don't really need explanations for this. The idea that humanity was ever united as a "Federation" is based on fanon but I am not the author. My main sticking point is the idea that many of humanity's alien allies chose to betray them for "reasons" is too much for me to believe. I always considered it to be bullshit and and its sad that the author chose that route.

The 'reasons' are various and manifold, but likely boil down to self-interest and a breakdown of the monopoly of power from whatever overarching central government existed during the DAOT and controlled the Men of Iron. Any time in human history where central control and the monopoly on force has broken down, you have seen people suddenly seize the opportunity to better their own place in the world at the expense of others, often violently.

Why would that not happen with alien species who might have chaffed for centuries or millenia beneath the de-jur rule of these hairless apes an their metal soldiers who want to sit around and sing kumbaya, especially when there are actual literal gods of evil whispering into their dreams about how they need to seize the moment of weakness now before things stabilize.
 
Something to point out: the Emperor and by extension the Star Child is not omniscient and they would definitely have their own biases. Hell. The Emperor is a fuck wit that caused a lot of the problems in the first place.

The Star Child is not infallible either. It may be better than the Emperor and gives some context but it is not flawless. After all the Star Child's source *is* the Emperor.

We just have to make informed decisions keeping in mind the various viewpoints.
 
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