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Star Dynasties/ Eon Wars

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How would one stationed infantry in interstellar trade route ...?
(Unless they are espatier/space marine type of infantry)
Then again raiding interstellar trade with infantry and no ships would be weird too.
 
Salbazier said:
How would one stationed infantry in interstellar trade route ...?
(Unless they are espatier/space marine type of infantry)
Then again raiding interstellar trade with infantry and no ships would be weird too.
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Infantry defending routes just ride on the ships, infantry who raid board. Escorts and warships are obviously far better for interstellar trade raiding and defending
 
TerrisH said:
Okay, that's just gameing the system and completely breaking it in the process. Mixed feeligns on if you get away with it. you do it means everyone else can, and that makes our income potential insane, but you'll have so much cash I'm not sure anyone can overcome you. you don't.. well, status quo.


I sent the cash this turn, so you should. intent is to get you enough to construct proper facilites. flag the r's use this turn, saying it comes from the loan. worst case lop says they did not go through anyd you simply don't build them.



also to note for the house list, I have absorbed House Valasar in System 3, and in HQ'ed there now.

On vassalage: Not actualy planning to order him to do anything, other then not attack my allies. It's more of a flavor issue, gathering smaller houses around my banner.
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There are many things wrong with this post. Going to clarify some of them.

Let us assume that you are making a deduction about me making many 1-unit raids, by way of counting the number of my units, and the number of dice I threw. Deducing actions from number of dice rolled is by itself something one should not try to do at the first place I think, given that the orders are supposed to be a secret. But never mind that, let us analyse your accusations.

1. Gaming the system: Lop has for almost 5 cycles now tried to encourage us to make more raids, by increasing the income from raids, and by lowering the income for peaceful developing. House Louhi raiding a lot isn't gaming the system, it is playing as intended.
2. Claiming that 1-troop raids are not cool: I'd say that it is the other players playing unthematically by conquering star systems and then leaving them without any occupation forces at all. To prove my point, Lop has now introduced the Station order. I have had forces stationed in all my systems for ages of course.
3. "House Louhi having so much cash that no one can overcome me": This is just intentionally obtuse. In the case of all my throws being raids and successful, I would get 13*5 = 65R this turn. Even with this potential income, I would be left behind House Zion in total income for a significant amount. Take into account that I have had no participation in any trade deals ever, and that House Zion has had double or triple the income of all the other Houses for half the game. This statement of me having even the most money, never mind an unreachable amount of money, is just plain untrue.


I don't mind IC propaganda at all, as one can see from my posts. Feel free to diss House Louhi IC if it serves your goals. However, you accusing me OOC of playing wrong, and you throwing false numbers to support your claims, is not cool.


Star said:
Okay stationed them , in all attacked provinces and trade deals.
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@Lop, @Star
This is even more wrong on multiple levels.

1. Changing force deployment orders as the thread goes on is a crazy mechanic. It will create the following situation: Everyone will leave their posting until minutes before Lop starts to update, and then everyone will scramble to change their orders before Lop calls for a thread lock. I thought we had a gentleman rule of not changing earlier orders based on other people's secret orders, it's so obvious not to do that.
2. Star obviously checked secret orders of House Louhi. Star isn't even trying to hide it. No way would Star have "stationed them in all attacked provinces and trade deals" otherwise. They even left all the other trade deals unguarded, except for the one I was secretly going for!

I can't state it more strongly:
-If we have a secret order mechanic, it should be blindingly obvious that they are not to be peaked at!
-We can't have a "You changed your orders, so I changed my orders, but then you changed again, so I changed again..." type of a thing going. It's insane. Which everyone of course knows; Star is just trying to get away with it this one time. If someone wants others to react to their orders for narrative, they will make their orders NOT SECRET...
 
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Paroni said:
There are many things wrong with this post. Going to clarify some of them.

Let us assume that you are making a deduction about me making many 1-unit raids, by way of counting the number of my units, and the number of dice I threw. Deducing actions from number of dice rolled is by itself something one should not try to do at the first place I think, given that the orders are supposed to be a secret. But never mind that, let us analyse your accusations.

1. Gaming the system: Lop has for almost 5 cycles now tried to encourage us to make more raids, by increasing the income from raids, and by lowering the income for peaceful developing. House Louhi raiding a lot isn't gaming the system, it is playing as intended.
2. Claiming that 1-troop raids are not cool: I'd say that it is the other players playing unthematically by conquering star systems and then leaving them without any occupation forces at all. To prove my point, Lop has now introduced the Station order. I have had forces stationed in all my systems for ages of course.
3. "House Louhi having so much cash that no one can overcome me": This is just intentionally obtuse. In the case of all my throws being raids and successful, I would get 13*5 = 65R this turn. Even with this potential income, I would be left behind House Zion in total income for a significant amount. Take into account that I have had no participation in any trade deals ever, and that House Zion has had trouble or triple the income of all the other Houses for half the game. This statement of me having even the most money, never mind an unreachable amount of money, is just plain untrue.


I don't mind IC propaganda at all, as one can see from my posts. Feel free to diss House Louhi IC if it serves your goals. However, you accusing me OOC of playing wrong, and you throwing false numbers to support your claims, is not cool.



@Lop, @Star
This is really wrong as well on multiple levels.

1. Changing force deployment orders as the thread goes on is a crazy mechanic. It will create the following situation: Everyone will leave their posting until minutes before Lop starts to update, and then everyone will scramble to change their orders before Lop calls for a thread lock. I thought we had a gentleman rule of not changing earlier orders based on other people's secret orders, it's so obvious not to do that.
2. Star obviously checked secret orders of House Louhi. Star isn't even trying to hide it. No way would Star have "stationed them in all attacked provinces and trade deals" otherwise. They even left all the other trade deals unguarded, except for the one I was secretly going for!

I can't state it more strongly:
-If we have a secret order mechanic, it should be blindingly obvious that they are not to be peaked at!
-We can't have a "You changed your orders, so I changed my orders, but then you changed again, so I changed again..." type of a thing going. It's insane. Which everyone of course knows; Star is just trying to get away with it this one time. If someone wants others to react to their orders for narrative, they will make their orders NOT SECRET...
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That's all fine for you (65 R's ) but for me it means that not only I earn less than i used to but i am prime target for raiding as well.
Basically i would be losing my income every turn due to constant raids while every other house would be getting 65 ( R's ).

I was fine with you raiding one my trade deal or couple of them , but all of my systems, no.
And you are forgeting to mention that with those 65 R's you pretty much can buy a bigger army and raid me constantly as i would be stuck in a war and unable to gather proper defenses.
 
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Paroni said:
There are many things wrong with this post. Going to clarify some of them.

Let us assume that you are making a deduction about me making many 1-unit raids, by way of counting the number of my units, and the number of dice I threw. Deducing actions from number of dice rolled is by itself something one should not try to do at the first place I think, given that the orders are supposed to be a secret. But never mind that, let us analyse your accusations.

1. Gaming the system: Lop has for almost 5 cycles now tried to encourage us to make more raids, by increasing the income from raids, and by lowering the income for peaceful developing. House Louhi raiding a lot isn't gaming the system, it is playing as intended.
2. Claiming that 1-troop raids are not cool: I'd say that it is the other players playing unthematically by conquering star systems and then leaving them without any occupation forces at all. To prove my point, Lop has now introduced the Station order. I have had forces stationed in all my systems for ages of course.
3. "House Louhi having so much cash that no one can overcome me": This is just intentionally obtuse. In the case of all my throws being raids and successful, I would get 13*5 = 65R this turn. Even with this potential income, I would be left behind House Zion in total income for a significant amount. Take into account that I have had no participation in any trade deals ever, and that House Zion has had trouble or triple the income of all the other Houses for half the game. This statement of me having even the most money, never mind an unreachable amount of money, is just plain untrue.


I don't mind IC propaganda at all, as one can see from my posts. Feel free to diss House Louhi IC if it serves your goals. However, you accusing me OOC of playing wrong, and you throwing false numbers to support your claims, is not cool.



@Lop, @Star
This is even more wrong on multiple levels.

1. Changing force deployment orders as the thread goes on is a crazy mechanic. It will create the following situation: Everyone will leave their posting until minutes before Lop starts to update, and then everyone will scramble to change their orders before Lop calls for a thread lock. I thought we had a gentleman rule of not changing earlier orders based on other people's secret orders, it's so obvious not to do that.
2. Star obviously checked secret orders of House Louhi. Star isn't even trying to hide it. No way would Star have "stationed them in all attacked provinces and trade deals" otherwise. They even left all the other trade deals unguarded, except for the one I was secretly going for!

I can't state it more strongly:
-If we have a secret order mechanic, it should be blindingly obvious that they are not to be peaked at!
-We can't have a "You changed your orders, so I changed my orders, but then you changed again, so I changed again..." type of a thing going. It's insane. Which everyone of course knows; Star is just trying to get away with it this one time. If someone wants others to react to their orders for narrative, they will make their orders NOT SECRET...
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Yes these are good concerns, so my plan is to make raiding a secret action, as you and some other players have being doing (spoilering). If we're worried about meta gaming, players can DM me raid actions (though spoilering and the honor system going forward is easier for e)
 
Star said:
That's all fine for you (65 R's ) but for me it means that not only I earn less than i used to but i am prime target for raiding as well.
Basically i would be losing my income every turn due to constant raids while every other house would be getting 65 ( R's ).

I was fine with you raiding one my trade deal or couple of them , but all of my systems, no.
And you are forgeting to mention that with those 65 R's you pretty much can buy a bigger army and raid me constantly as i would be stuck in a war and unable to gather proper defenses.
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Your argument is: "House Zion strategy proved unsuccessful and had negative consequences, so it is okay to blatantly cheat to stay at the leader position in the game"...

I have no words.
 
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When I have some free time I'll make sure everything's balanced before we continue, because the #1 thing I want is player's having fun. It'll just take some tinkering on my part
 
Lop said:
Yes these are good concerns, so my plan is to make raiding a secret action, as you and some other players have being doing (spoilering). If we're worried about meta gaming, players can DM me raid actions (though spoilering and the honor system going forward is easier for e)
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I would be fine with the honor system, but I guess we have to change to DMing. Star does not seem repentant, to say the least.


Edit:
Suggestions for a new posting mechanic:
1. All Force Deployment orders must be DM:ed to Lop.
2. Players can DM new overriding deployment orders until the time that Lop starts writing the crucial parts of the update of that cycle.
3. Lop informs players about the time when new Deployment orders are no longer accepted for that cycle.
4. Secret conversations should be DM:d as well, with Lop being one of the recipients.

Edit~2:
5. Lop throws all dice. This is to prevent players making deductions based on the amounts of dice other people throw.


This is a way of eliminating the influence of peeking.


Also, as a separate issue, Star should obviously not be allowed to profit for their dishonorable actions here. Simply not updating any Force Deployment orders for House Zion on this cycle could be an easy and proportionate method to do this.
 
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Paroni said:
There are many things wrong with this post. Going to clarify some of them.

Let us assume that you are making a deduction about me making many 1-unit raids, by way of counting the number of my units, and the number of dice I threw. Deducing actions from number of dice rolled is by itself something one should not try to do at the first place I think, given that the orders are supposed to be a secret. But never mind that, let us analyse your accusations.

1. Gaming the system: Lop has for almost 5 cycles now tried to encourage us to make more raids, by increasing the income from raids, and by lowering the income for peaceful developing. House Louhi raiding a lot isn't gaming the system, it is playing as intended.
2. Claiming that 1-troop raids are not cool: I'd say that it is the other players playing unthematically by conquering star systems and then leaving them without any occupation forces at all. To prove my point, Lop has now introduced the Station order. I have had forces stationed in all my systems for ages of course.
3. "House Louhi having so much cash that no one can overcome me": This is just intentionally obtuse. In the case of all my throws being raids and successful, I would get 13*5 = 65R this turn. Even with this potential income, I would be left behind House Zion in total income for a significant amount. Take into account that I have had no participation in any trade deals ever, and that House Zion has had trouble or triple the income of all the other Houses for half the game. This statement of me having even the most money, never mind an unreachable amount of money, is just plain untrue.
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No, it's gaming the system. It's technically within the rules to do so, but its exploiting a loophole in the rules, and pretty much flying in the face of making the game fun to play. The very definition of gaming the system.

I have no problems with you doing it this turns. be you get away with or not. Really, the problem with the 1 unit raids will fix themselves even without a rule correction.. it's just going to make for some very boring turns until hit happens. Several turns of everyone being forced to send out one unit-raids to all systems just to keep up eco wise, until all claimed systems have defense grids or enough non-raiding forces to easily repulse the raids.

But it's still something that needs to be looked at, if just to keep the game enjoyable. only thing I would suggest is that profits from raids scale with the amount of forces sent, and how many tiers of opperations in play.

Point three was a bit of hyperbole on my part. sorry about that.

Also fully agree with the Force deployment rules you suggested.
 
I would have preferred the honor system as well, but oh well.
Star said:
That's all fine for you (65 R's ) but for me it means that not only I earn less than i used to but i am prime target for raiding as well.
Basically i would be losing my income every turn due to constant raids while every other house would be getting 65 ( R's ).

I was fine with you raiding one my trade deal or couple of them , but all of my systems, no.
And you are forgeting to mention that with those 65 R's you pretty much can buy a bigger army and raid me constantly as i would be stuck in a war and unable to gather proper defenses.
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Yeah, I have to side with Paroni here. If you have fairness.balance concern then you should have raised such concern, OOC-ly, not doing this.

EDIT: perhaps I was choosing my words poorly. by 'doing this', I meant the peeking and changing order thing, not this post I am quoting.

Lop said:
When I have some free time I'll make sure everything's balanced before we continue, because the #1 thing I want is player's having fun. It'll just take some tinkering on my part
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Thing is perfect balance is impossible. Its hard enough to do even with team of professionals working for years, much less for an improvised game handled by one person. To some extent, in all roleplaying games, players do need to accept that balance can be fuzzy, that it may at time swings to favor some side more than the other. And that it the way it swings may changes from time to time depend on the current patch. That doesn't meant players have to settle for every and any imbalance, just ... how to say this, we need to be patient and talk issues out.
Paroni said:
Suggestions for a new posting mechanic:
1. All Force Deployment orders must be DM:ed to Lop.
2. Players can DM new overriding deployment orders until the time that Lop starts writing the crucial parts of the update of that cycle.
3. Lop informs players about the time when new Deployment orders are no longer accepted for that cycle.
4. Secret conversations should be DM:d as well, with Lop being one of the recipients.

Edit~2:
5. Lop throws all dice. This is to prevent players making deductions based on the amounts of dice other people throw.
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I would leave players option to make their forces deployment public if they want to.

That, and I would add that forces deployment on the turn must be made clear/public once the turn is over and all those deployment resolved. Whether by the GM posting what happened, or by players themselves stating in their sheet which unit is currently where. Now, this is what we all have been mostly doing, but with the rule changes and the increasing need for information classification, I feel this point bear affirming, lest people get too much caugh up in the secrecy thing and stopped updating their military stat posting at their new turn post. Justify it IC as each house intelligence being able to figure out who is where (but not in timely enough manner to figure out the movement of deployed forces before those forces arrive at their destination)

Obscuring players action during the decision making phase is fine, because it is just currently demonstrated that such secrecy matters. But it would be too arduous if we have to play Battleship guessing game who's where, or spending intelligence action to find it out. It will probably got more confusing for everyone involved as well.
 
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Lotta good points here, I'll take any and all suggestions into consideration before next turn. Above all I'll try to make it fair for everyone, while also still being fun (and simple)
 
TerrisH said:
You do realize that he was doing Exactly what you are saying he should do? Raising the concern in an Out Of Character manner?
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After he was called out. What I'm saying that he should have raised it before doing that turn order changes.

EDIT: perhaps I was choosing my words poorly. by 'doing this' in the previous post, I meant the peeking and changing order thing, not the post I was quoting.
 
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If he wishes to rade then he can I'll retreat my troops, no problem. And in case of this new system well here are some notes from my side .

1. I don't raid. Like house Louhi isn't in trade deals my style of play by wich I'm going and making trade deals isn't build for me raiding. Basically i can't even use these bounuses.
2. I can't attack any house due to Great houses intervinig (Dorn attacked me).
3. In this system I'm earning less then i did.
4. That talk about me earing to much and that all of my earnings are greater than those 65 R's (this is my problem ) ,well right before change of system I earned 44 R's , after 22 R's and to get there (44 R's) it required me investing over multiple turns, but now suddenly all of that is meaningless as i can simply be raided, then house that raided me gets 65 R's over one turn ignoring industrial development completely and making everything i've been doing completely useless as i had to keep my industry and enough army at the same time.Under a new system since they can't invest it in industry, well they can invest it in military and simply raid me again while I'm not only crippled because of new system, but my earnings would be even less due to raiding wich would leave me with practically no R's and my biggest advantage, my massive industry (wich at this point would be meaningless ) that i can use to create an army that would defend me.

So yea excuse me for not being overjoyed to be prime target for raiding constantly.
It was probably on everyone's mind as that is what it would be needed to be done to catch up with house Louhi.
TerrisH said:
Several turns of everyone being forced to send out one unit-raids to all systems just to keep up eco wise, until all claimed systems have defense grids or enough non-raiding forces to easily repulse the raids.
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For everyone it is several turns copy, paste, repeat, for me it's be raided several turns without being able to do anything.
 
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My proposal for this is that if more than certain number of one players systems and trade deals is raided i don't suffer from lack of R's due to raiding and get my 22 R's next turn to be able to shore up proper defenses.
Narrative can be that my patron house gave me a bost.
Or if one player raids to much systems he must go on cold down and is unable to raid couple of turns proprioceptional to number of raids he raided giving other houses time to prepare for him.

Sorry for double posting.
 
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My proposal is that you should lose no more income than proportionally of your industry was raided. I.e. If 10 of your 30 Industry got (successfully) raided, then you shoud lose no more than 1/3 of your total income.
And you just properly defend your industry heavy systems.

[EDIT]
Oh, and I don't think raiding should make money out of thin air. You can only gain from raid what defending player lost. Effectively stealing from them. Of cource bonuses from Patron Houses can still apply to incentisise raiding.
 
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Chopak said:
My proposal is that you should lose no more income than proportionally of your industry was raided. I.e. If 10 of your 30 Industry got (successfully) raided, then you shoud lose no more than 1/3 of your total income.
And you just properly defend your industry heavy systems.
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Agreed, I don't mind players getting more R's but i wish a guarantee that i will still be able to defend myself later on.
EDIT : Agreed with edit as well, just as i can get 1 R's from my industry's those that raid then get same amount that is stolen + bost from patron house .
 
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We aren't condemning you for not being overjoyed about your strategy not working very well, Star. It is reasonable to be sad about that. One might have guessed that a peaceful strategy would not work very well in a zone that is meant to be middle-east on steroids, but at least I appreciate sticking with roleplaying a style even if it leads to defeat. Making mechanics suggestions to modify the game to make your strategy work better is also accepted, since Lop gave a special permission to present preferred mechanics changes.

What we Are condemning you for is cheating. Peeking at secret orders and changing your own orders accordingly, while perfectly well knowing how much that is against the rules both in letter and in spirit. Even if you were just balancing one wrong (your strategy being not favored by the QM) with another wrong, you should be condemned. But here's the thing: there wasn't even an original wrong in the first place! There is no rule which states "Star cannot be the least powerful player in the game" or "Star's strategy has to be successful". Someone has to be in the last position, and being there does Not pass as an excuse for any kinds of rule breaking.

Another thing is, I don't think Star is ignorant of the logic written above. That logic is obvious to a six-year-old. Star pretty clearly just doesn't care. In their minds, they should be doing well in a game, and if they face a possibility of getting behind, they are perfectly willing to break the rules. At least that is the message they are sending with their writing. After getting caught with breaking the rules, Star has proceeded to whine about how unfair the game is to them. Star has Not apologized for breaking the rules, nor expressed a willingness to not do so again. They "magnanimously" expressed a willingness to change their orders back to something else, after faced with a possibility of punishment via ignoring said orders. Even that came with the air of being the aggrieved party themselves!


TL;DR:
The House facing hard times is not in any way a justification for its player to cheat and ignore rules. Not even when the player is Star.
 
Paroni said:
We aren't condemning you for not being overjoyed about your strategy not working very well, Star. It is reasonable to be sad about that. One might have guessed that a peaceful strategy would not work very well in a zone that is meant to be middle-east on steroids, but at least I appreciate sticking with roleplaying a style even if it leads to defeat. Making mechanics suggestions to modify the game to make your strategy work better is also accepted, since Lop gave a special permission to present preferred mechanics changes.

What we Are condemning you for is cheating. Peeking at secret orders and changing your own orders accordingly, while perfectly well knowing how much that is against the rules both in letter and in spirit. Even if you were just balancing one wrong (your strategy being not favored by the QM) with another wrong, you should be condemned. But here's the thing: there wasn't even an original wrong in the first place! There is no rule which states "Star cannot be the least powerful player in the game" or "Star's strategy has to be successful". Someone has to be in the last position, and being there does Not pass as an excuse for any kinds of rule breaking.

Another thing is, I don't think Star is ignorant of the logic written above. That logic is obvious to a six-year-old. Star pretty clearly just doesn't care. In their minds, they should be doing well in a game, and if they face a possibility of getting behind, they are perfectly willing to break the rules. At least that is the message they are sending with their writing. After getting caught with breaking the rules, Star has proceeded to whine about how unfair the game is to them. Star has Not apologized for breaking the rules, nor expressed a willingness to not do so again. They "magnanimously" expressed a willingness to change their orders back to something else, after faced with a possibility of punishment via ignoring said orders. Even that came with the air of being the aggrieved party themselves!


TL;DR:
The House facing hard times is not in any way a justification for its player to cheat and ignore rules. Not even when the player is Star.
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Star said:
If he wishes to rade then he can I'll retreat my troops, no problem
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Paroni said:
Simply not updating any Force Deployment orders
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I pretty much agreed to a punishment here you know, it's pretty much one and the same as I'm not deploying my troops in those systems you are free to raid them.
To add cherry on top i even won't get any R's next turn so as you can see punishment literally isn't my problem and I'm pretty much ready to take responsibility for my actions.

My problem is the hard times being imposed on me without any limitations wich pretty much resulted in 65 R's (while i must build my industry's for turns to get that number) and House Zion not being able to do anything on top of being already crippled.

Edit: If it was like that then we shouldnt had instant build and deployment limit for troops and Industries, or attacking a weaker houses, then it would truly be no limit play

And if we are to go by your logic then me telling where i build my industry's and how much soldiers i have shouldn't be allowed from the start, it pretty much tells you where you can attack and where you can't.( You conveniently skipped system 17 and 27, only two without any industries )

Edit: Peace with house Dorn would had happened anyway next turn as war was costly and it leaved me open to the raids (Volantia/Zion trade route) you casting all those rolls and raiding me last turn helped a lot as i was the only house in war with such number undefended systems, what cemented it was TerrisH opening possibility of everyone going at it.
 
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